Your Controversial Opinions on DT

[chaossystem]

"Shadow" and "King" both made some really good points, and I don't like having to come on here to express my anger, instead of having a rational discourse about our thoughts and opinions. But sometimes shit happens.

Anyway-"Oompa-Loompa-doompenty-doo! I've got another PUZZLE for you..."

I don't begin to understand why so many people are bitching and complaining about Mike Mangini not making the "big change" in the band's sound that they were expecting. Give the guy (and the band) a break! Maybe they're still working out the bugs of working together.

Do you REALLY want a drummer that can't play all of the old songs? Or who plays them in a way that you no longer recognize?

He's still fairly new, and he has some very big-and in my opinion very talented-shoes to fill.

He may very well still be thinking things like "am I really here?" "did this really happen?"

Also apart from being just the drummer that I think they needed, he seems like a really nice guy, who doesn't want to "rock the boat and make waves," or be too disruptive. Would you like it better if he was the kind of asshole that walked in with an "I'm-here-to-take-over" attitude?

Give it some time. Maybe soon-even as early as the next album-he'll come up with some things that will shock, surprise and delight us ALL!

[Zook]

A few ellipses and some emoticons, and chaossystem is Mike Portnoy.

[chaossystem]

I don't think so.

What do mathematical and facial expressions have to do with my writing style?

And WHY would I write a post DEFENDING Mike M. and the band's choice of him as a drummer if I was Mike P.?

[Zook]

Because MP is cuckoo for cocoa puffs.

[Mosh]

I think you are both nuts.  It's jarring for a reason.

I understand that. I like that it's jarring. My problem is less the solo and more the buildup to the solo. In my opinion, it should've been that little bass thing for 2 bars going straight into the guitar solo. JP's solo illustrates surprise and confusion brilliantly, but it loses effect coming after a noodly and pointless JR solo and a riff that has overstayed its welcome by the time JP kicks in.

If it would've gone straight into JP's solo, it would've been much more surprising and would've made more sense. The way they did it just makes the song seem bloated.

I get you. I always though that part of the solo was meant to be the confusion for those in direct contact with the bombing.  there was so much panic and confusion I took the part of the solo as that.

Oh yea I agree, I just think that would've worked better if it was placed at the beginning of the instrumental, to really catch people off guard.

[chaossystem]

Because MP is cuckoo for cocoa puffs.

So...

Mike P. is insane, and THAT'S why he would write a post like that?

That little INSULT is the best response you could come up with?

Okay...

[Zook]

 

I think you're letting hef get to you. You know how he greeted me 8 years ago? He asked me why I was talking to people (on a message board) without introducing myself first.

And if you've ever seen Portnoy's posts, you'd understand my comparison.

[chaossystem]

L.-O.-L.!

Are you saying that he asked you that question on here, or on a board similar to this one?

Now I think I understand.

Thanks for the heads-up.

So where would I find these posts by Mike P.?

[Rodni Demental]

https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?action=profile;area=showposts;u=6436

[TheGreatPretender]

Oh wow. I remember him replying to a certain thread, but I didn't realize that he replied to some of the other threads. I'm not gonna touch on the topic of him singing Repentance, but him comparing his voice to Bruce Springsteen and Kurt Cobain is   

[Zook]

L.-O.-L.!

Are you saying that he asked you that question on here, or on a board similar to this one?

Now I think I understand.

Thanks for the heads-up.

So where would I find these posts by Mike P.?

It was the official DT forum before it was shutdown. It was actually him and another poster.

A lot has changed in the past 8 years.

[Mosh]

Oh wow. I remember him replying to a certain thread, but I didn't realize that he replied to some of the other threads. I'm not gonna touch on the topic of him singing Repentance, but him comparing his voice to Bruce Springsteen and Kurt Cobain is   

idk, I think he made a great point in that thread. Kurt Cobain and Bruce Springsteen weren't/aren't technically gifted singers, but they have very emotional deliveries that get the jb done. MP was just pointing out that he has the same approach, he never said his vocals were better or even at their level.

[TheGreatPretender]

idk, I think he made a great point in that thread. Kurt Cobain and Bruce Springsteen weren't/aren't technically gifted singers, but they have very emotional deliveries that get the jb done. MP was just pointing out that he has the same approach, he never said his vocals were better or even at their level.

What he said was, "Does [insert singers names] have a good voice?" Implying that the answer would be 'no,' and while that's a matter of taste, I'd say he's quite wrong. At the very least about Springsteen and Cobain. They've both had very soulful quality to their singing, not to mention their voices were just generally easily palatable and pleasant, IMO.
MP might have TRIED for the same approach, but most of his vocals that I've heard, including TBOT demo, varied from dry and plain, to all out whiny. Even in terms of expression or soulfulness, he hasn't even come close to being at their level.

[Mosh]

Oh I agree that he doesn't come close to them either, but I don't think MP was trying to imply that. I love Roger Waters and Kurt Cobain's voices, but I wouldn't call them technically great singers by any means. To me, the guys he named are all singers who rely more on delivery and emotion than having a great range or tone. MP, whether you think he does a good job or not, is one of those singers.

Personally I think he does a good job sometimes though. I've never found his voice as grating as others seem to.

[TheGreatPretender]

It still came off to me like him trying to compare himself to them, just because they don't rely on technical ability.

[Mosh]

Honestly, as far as that goes I think it's a fair comparison.

[TheGreatPretender]

I'd say not by a long shot. I'm not even a fan of Nirvana, but hearing Cobain's vocals, you could hear so much pain and real emotion in his tone. Forget voice or technique, so far I haven't seen MP being able to bring that kind of genuine emotion into a studio setting, even when singing a final goodbye to his dying father.
The bottom line is this, people like Roger Waters, Bruce Springsteen, Kurt Cobain, in spite of not having amazing vocal technique, they had enough substance in their vocals to be well deserving of being lead vocalists in their bands. MP is far away from being a worthy lead vocalist for any band.
Heck, I'd rather listen to Dave Mustaine, and he sure as shit not a great singer. At least his singing has personality, which is more than I can say for MP's singing.

[Shadow Ninja 2.0]

Is emotion quantifiable?

[Mosh]

My point is that MP's approach is the same to all those singers. Maybe he's not at the same level as them (and even that's up for debate), but he's still trying to go for the same thing. It's a fair comparison in that, like the other singers mentioned, he goes for emotional/delivery over technique. Whether or not he successfully does this is a matter of opinion, and the same could be said for any other singer mentioned. Maybe you don't think MP is worthy of being a lead singer of a band, but someone else might. Not gonna lie, as a vocalist I definitely prefer him to Mustaine.

And I think he has plenty emotion in his TBOT demo.

[TheGreatPretender]

Is emotion quantifiable?

I'd say it's about as quantifiable as being able to say, one puts a lot of emotion into their singing, and the other just doesn't. They can try, they can put a certain inflection into their voice, but when there's barely any semblance of emotion in the performance, it's very easy to tell the difference.

I mean, think about acting. Imagine an actor whose performance takes them into a dark emotional state, and allows them to put real pain and anguish into their performance. They can make you feel for them, can even make you cry.
Now think about some bad actors who can't conjure up any kind of emotion, for whatever reason, so their voice is whiny, they try to make faces, to make themselves seem "sad" and maybe even try to cry, which doesn't work and just looks awful. Is it easy to see which one is the genuine article and which one is just pretending. So in that respect, it's very easy to quantify emotion. And it's much the same with singing.

Now, I'm not saying that MP didn't feel any emotion, hell, he's singing about his dying father, I'm just saying that it didn't seem to me like he could conjure up those emotions in his performance. Whether it was because of his surroundings and the people who may have been there, or because he just couldn't bring it out of himself in song, maybe he was thinking about the lyrics too much, or something. The bottom line is, so far, I haven't heard a single instance where he's been able to put any kind of real soul into his performance. But hey, that's just my opinion. All I'm saying is MP's singing has never had any kind of emotional impact on me. Even in TBOT, JLB's performance sounded more genuine. When I heard MP's demo, I didn't even realize that he played it for his father, I just assumed it was a phoned in guide track for JLB, much like JP's Wither demo.

[Shadow Ninja 2.0]

Is emotion quantifiable?

I'd say it's about as quantifiable as being able to say, one puts a lot of emotion into their singing, and the other just doesn't. They can try, they can put a certain inflection into their voice, but when there's barely any semblance of emotion in the performance, it's very easy to tell the difference.

I mean, think about acting. Imagine an actor whose performance takes them into a dark emotional state, and allows them to put real pain and anguish into their performance. They can make you feel for them, can even make you cry.
Now think about some bad actors who can't conjure up any kind of emotion, for whatever reason, so their voice is whiny, they try to make faces, to make themselves seem "sad" and maybe even try to cry, which doesn't work and just looks awful. Is it easy to see which one is the genuine article and which one is just pretending. So in that respect, it's very easy to quantify emotion. And it's much the same with singing.

Now, I'm not saying that MP didn't feel any emotion, hell, he's singing about his dying father, I'm just saying that it didn't seem to me like he could conjure up those emotions in his performance. Whether it was because of his surroundings and the people who may have been there, or because he just couldn't bring it out of himself in song, maybe he was thinking about the lyrics too much, or something. The bottom line is, so far, I haven't heard a single instance where he's been able to put any kind of real soul into his performance. But hey, that's just my opinion. All I'm saying is MP's singing has never had any kind of emotional impact on me. Even in TBOT, JLB's performance sounded more genuine. When I heard MP's demo, I didn't even realize that he played it for his father, I just assumed it was a phoned in guide track for JLB, much like JP's Wither demo.

This is basically what I'm getting at.

[TheGreatPretender]

This is basically what I'm getting at.

Well, going back to my metaphor, that's not to say that a bad actor isn't feeling any emotion during their performance either. But if they can't express it, then it's clearly a sign of a poor performance. Same with MP.

[Shadow Ninja 2.0]

Yeah, but once again, who's to say they're not expressing emotion? Is there a universal metric for finding out? Could not some person find MP's vocals to be emotional?

[bl5150]

Sounds like we need to get the objective/subjective thing going again 

[Zook]

Let's go back to acting. In Freddy vs Jason, at the end, Monica Keena says she isn't leaving til she sees Freddy die. She looks mad, sounds mad, but her overacting kills all believability. Maybe that's similar to the MP argument. If not, screw you, I'm going to bed.

[TheGreatPretender]

Yeah, but once again, who's to say they're not expressing emotion? Is there a universal metric for finding out? Could not some person find MP's vocals to be emotional?

Well, if you take out all such factors, then the only thing you could possibly judge singing based on is whether the person hits the right notes. Who cares about whether they convey emotion, energy, tone, range, or heck, even proper technique? As long as they're hitting right notes, that means they're automatically a good singer. Except, I can't think of anyone who'd actually agree with this statement. This calls back to the conversation I had a page or two back about JLB vs. Bruce Dickinson, and the argument was that JLB, for all his range and technique, doesn't convey as much passion as Dickinson. But hey, why don't we just say, "Could not some person find JLB's vocals to be as passionate and emotional as Dickinson's?"

But you know, I'm not gonna have that argument. If we go too far into it, then we'll say we can't judge anything. Maybe some people hear emotion. Maybe other people feel as much energy out of JLB's performance as they do from Dickinson. Maybe some people find that DT12's production is vastly superior to I&W. It's all opinions anyway, so maybe people shouldn't be allowed to critique anything, and every single musician is equal in every way, even at instruments that they can't play, because if it's an expression of their true feelings, then who are we to judge how good it is?

Or, it's just as easily possible that if people are hearing great emotion in MP's singing, it's because they're projecting some of their own emotion into the song, whether it's because of the subject matter or the underlying music, or whatever.

Of course, we can't quantify such things, but if the majority of people will tell me that MP conveys as much emotion as Kurt Cobain, then I'll officially consider myself insane.

And yea, Zook basically referenced exactly what I mean. Except there are other types of bad acting (or in this case, singing) in MP's case, it's not overacting, it's lack of acting. It's more like if she said it with a loud tone of voice, but no expression or substance to her words.

[BlobVanDam]

Is emotion quantifiable?

No. This argument is silly.

[Kotowboy]

https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?action=profile;area=showposts;u=6436

Can't take MP Seriously if he puts Springsteen in the same league as Wayne Coyne.

The Boss can sing. Wayne can't.

[hefdaddy42]

You always have to pick apart everything I say-

No I don't.

I didn't sat it IS dumb, I said I think it's dumb.

What's the difference?

It would make more sense if it was TWELVE songs, one for EACH of the twelve steps, instead of FIVE.

Each song is subdivided into steps.  There are a total of 12.  So no, it wouldn't make more sense.

I thought this was a thread where we're allowed to express our CONTROVERSIAL opinions, not opinions that agree with EVERYONE ELSE'S!

Yes, but (and this observation has been made before) some of your opinions seem to be about things that it seems strange to have an opinion about in the first place.  So when you do things like that, you are going to draw attention to yourself.

[Stadler]

It still came off to me like him trying to compare himself to them, just because they don't rely on technical ability.

Yeah, I'm with Mosh on this one.  You are giving FAR too much credit to Cobain in my opinion.   What you call "emotion" I call nails on a chalkboard.   I like his "quiet voice" (as on much of Unplugged) but the chorus to "Smells Like Teen Spirit" is virtually unlistenable to me because of the vocals.   "Screaming" doesn't equal "emotion".   

You CAN judge, for yourself, as to whether the performance connects or not.   It is still subjective, but it allows for a personal evaluation of a JLB and a BD.   By trying to make "emotion" a standard you are implying that all people react to emotiveness as a primary characteristic.    I think Dio, for example, is FAR more emotive than JLB, and yet I prefer to listen to JLB, because for me, I really enjoy that fluid, melodious style of singing (JLB, Elton John, Freddie Mercury, John Lennon on "Imagine") over the raw, supposedly "emotive" style of singing (Cobain, John Lennon on "Revolution")

[hefdaddy42]

Depends on the emotion.  Sometimes you just wanna scream.

[chaossystem]

It was the official DT forum before it was shutdown. It was actually him and another poster.

A lot has changed in the past 8 years.

So why was the other forum shut down?

I don't think he's changed much.

[TheGreatPretender]

Yeah, I'm with Mosh on this one.  You are giving FAR too much credit to Cobain in my opinion.   What you call "emotion" I call nails on a chalkboard.   I like his "quiet voice" (as on much of Unplugged) but the chorus to "Smells Like Teen Spirit" is virtually unlistenable to me because of the vocals.   "Screaming" doesn't equal "emotion".   

Because I was obviously referring to his screaming? It's actually that Unplugged show that I'm referring to, where I felt a lot of genuine pain behind Cobain's vocals.

[chaossystem]

I'd say not by a long shot. I'm not even a fan of Nirvana, but hearing Cobain's vocals, you could hear so much pain and real emotion in his tone. Forget voice or technique, so far I haven't seen MP being able to bring that kind of genuine emotion into a studio setting, even when singing a final goodbye to his dying father.
The bottom line is this, people like Roger Waters, Bruce Springsteen, Kurt Cobain, in spite of not having amazing vocal technique, they had enough substance in their vocals to be well deserving of being lead vocalists in their bands. MP is far away from being a worthy lead vocalist for any band.
Heck, I'd rather listen to Dave Mustaine, and he sure as shit not a great singer. At least his singing has personality, which is more than I can say for MP's singing.

While I would agree That there are times when Mike P.'s singing boarders on parody, there other times when I think he has sounded as good as or better than the other singers named here.
I never cared for Nirvana in general, or Curt Cobain in specific. Same pretty much goes for Springsteen.
Roger Waters is pretty much hit and miss with me. He sounded pretty good on "S.o.Y.C.D." and MOST of "Animals," but I wish David Gilmour had done more (lead) vocals on that album. I liked his vocal parts on "The Wall," But he kind of crapped out on "The Final Cut," In more ways than one. Gilmour should have had a LOT more input on THAT album! On the other hand, Waters not being there for the LAST two Floyd albums made them sound-for me at least-somehow incomplete.
I don't think I agree about Mike P. not being able to do lead vocals for a band. There always were, are and will be MUCH worse singers than him. He should try it and see what happens. But I would agree that most of his strengths are in other areas.
As for Dave Mustaine, while I agree that he doesn't have the greatest voice in the world, I like a lot of what Megadeth has put out, and I can't imagine anyone BUT him singing HIS songs.

[Zook]

It was the official DT forum before it was shutdown. It was actually him and another poster.

A lot has changed in the past 8 years.

So why was the other forum shut down?

I don't think he's changed much.

Legend has it there was a monster named Itchy that ruled the forum for centuries, keeping a watchful eye like Sauron. Well, one day the members of the forum got a little too opinionated and Itchy shut the forum down. No one saw Itchy after that, but it's believed he dwells in the darkest corners of the internet... YouTube comments.