Your Controversial Opinions on DT

[425]

I can agree that Black Clouds is varied and contains many melodic sections and has the prog and the metal to back it up for a traditional DT sound, but I don't think you're giving DT12 the credit it deserves. Sure there are some heavy songs, particularly in TEI and EM, but also the ballad in the form of AFTR, and anthemic which comes with TBP. Song lengths aside, I feel that even after the tighter song writing and their ability to tone back some of the song lengths, it still gives you a pretty good idea of the DT sound in a more concise package that flows much better.

I'm about to allude to this in the second section which I actually wrote before writing this, but AFTR may be an attempt to write a light song, but it practice it still sounds really heavy, once the distorted guitar comes in. It's soft until "Through the gift of surrender" and then it's quite heavy. I love The Bigger Picture, but it also is a really heavy song. Let me put it this way: I think there is no song on DT12 that is lighter than The Best of Times.

And I agree that DT12 does a good job of getting the DT sound into a more compact package. But I think it's hard to ignore the 10-15 minute epic as an essential component of the DT sound. Until DT12 there had been at least one on every album since IAW, and WDADU has TKH which is that type of song in spirit if not in actual length. But on DT12 we don't have anything like that. The instrumental madness stuff shows up in IT, but it just feels a little odd to not have one of those, which makes it feel to me, personally, like the album can't exactly typify DT. That bit is a personal preference, though.


I don't think it's intended to be a ridiculously heavy album, which makes it all the worse. It is quite heavy though. The guitar on that album seems to have literally two modes: clean and ridiculously distorted and pushed way to the front. That's why even the damn ballad sounds heavy to me. The chocolate cake thing seems to sound better in theory than in reality. I mean, I'll admit that the heaviness is almost certainly a result of the mixing to a degree, but it honestly sounds too heavy throughout the whole course of the album, so I can't buy "it wasn't meant to sound that way" as an explanation for why I should consider it to be more balanced between heavy and light. It's probably even the heaviest DT album, and probably unintentionally, because of the production. I'll say that it even SOUNDS heavier than ToT, because ToT at least has Vacant which sounds light, which AFTR doesn't. I hate to be negative about music or an album for any reason, but honestly the production of DT12 detracts from my enjoyment of the album, which is true of no other Dream Theater album, which I find really really disappointing.

[TheGreatPretender]

I'm about to allude to this in the second section which I actually wrote before writing this, but AFTR may be an attempt to write a light song, but it practice it still sounds really heavy, once the distorted guitar comes in. It's soft until "Through the gift of surrender" and then it's quite heavy. I love The Bigger Picture, but it also is a really heavy song. Let me put it this way: I think there is no song on DT12 that is lighter than The Best of Times.

The Best of Times has some pretty fast and energetic riffs in it as well. The style alludes more to Hard Rock than Metal, but when it comes to ballads getting heavier and more epic, DT has always done things like that. Look at To Live Forever and The Spirit Carries On. They both start out mellow, but then build into something big and powerful, and I think AFTR fits perfectly well into that category.

And I agree that DT12 does a good job of getting the DT sound into a more compact package. But I think it's hard to ignore the 10-15 minute epic as an essential component of the DT sound. Until DT12 there had been at least one on every album since IAW, and WDADU has TKH which is that type of song in spirit if not in actual length. But on DT12 we don't have anything like that. The instrumental madness stuff shows up in IT, but it just feels a little odd to not have one of those, which makes it feel to me, personally, like the album can't exactly typify DT. That bit is a personal preference, though.

Regarding this, I look at it in a completely different way. DT usually has a habit of ending their albums with an epic, be it around 13 minutes, or anywhere up to 25. Songs like Trial of Tears, ITNOG and Learning To Live apply to this category, but then, so do songs like Octavarium, In The Presence of Enemies and The Count of Tuscany. In DT12, Illumination Theory is that song, and even though it's 22 minutes, part of that is the Easter Egg, so the main component of the song itself is around 19 minutes, which is pretty much the same as TCOT.

As for mini-epics I think it's more about the musical journey than about song length and DT12 may not have really long songs, but its 'epicness' is condensed in a big way, and still manages to take you through that musical journey and deliver songs that are as progressive as anything they've ever done. Personally, I'd say Surrender to Reason at 6.5 minutes in itself is more of an epic than A Nightmare To Remember.

[BlobVanDam]

I feel that both ADTOE and DT12, love them or hate them, do a better job at providing listeners with a more complete picture of what makes up DT.  The metal elements, the prog elements, the melodic elements, the song writing chops, etc...

I'm just going to say it and watch the sparks fly:

ADTOE, yes. DT12, not really. BCSL... yes. WAY more so than DT12.

I'd agree, although I'd probably put BCASL level with DT12.
I find DT12's songs to mostly be a bit too brief to highlight their core elements to their full potential, and the album is overall heavy. Even when the song isn't written to be heavy, the arrangement and mix are drenched in guitars at the expense of other instruments.
And BCASL's songs are overall too long to allow them enough space to showcase as much, without enough progression within some of the songs to showcase everything.

[Grizz]

You're totally right. Except while I acknowledge that BCSL songs are too damn long, I like them anyway.
Six Degrees on the other hand...


















 

[ThatOneGuy2112]

Basically everything TheGreatPretender said. I agree with that 100%.

I don't think it's intended to be a ridiculously heavy album, which makes it all the worse. It is quite heavy though. The guitar on that album seems to have literally two modes: clean and ridiculously distorted and pushed way to the front. That's why even the damn ballad sounds heavy to me. The chocolate cake thing seems to sound better in theory than in reality. I mean, I'll admit that the heaviness is almost certainly a result of the mixing to a degree, but it honestly sounds too heavy throughout the whole course of the album, so I can't buy "it wasn't meant to sound that way" as an explanation for why I should consider it to be more balanced between heavy and light. It's probably even the heaviest DT album, and probably unintentionally, because of the production. I'll say that it even SOUNDS heavier than ToT, because ToT at least has Vacant which sounds light, which AFTR doesn't. I hate to be negative about music or an album for any reason, but honestly the production of DT12 detracts from my enjoyment of the album, which is true of no other Dream Theater album, which I find really really disappointing.

I couldn't disagree more. Even taking into account the production and compression issues that the guitar tones face throughout the album, in no way does DT12 come close to the consistent heaviness and trashiness of an album like TOT. There's Vacant, sure, but that's one streak of white in a portrait painted black. I'm not denying that DT12 is a relatively heavy album, but I think we're forgetting that this is Dream Theater, one of the forerunners to the progressive metal genre. My point being that it's not as heavy as other DT albums and that it showcases a wide array of sounds even given the supposed limits to that genre label.

While the mixing and mastering is most certainly a factor in how heavy an album may come across, it really doesn't come into play nearly as much as the actual song-writing and instrumentation do in delivering a particular mood that the band tries to convey.

Again, I do acknowledge the varied moods and levels of intensity presented by BC&SL--it most certainly lives up to its name in presenting the light and shade that DT has to offer, but in the end I just feel that DT12 achieves the same exact thing but more thoroughly and with packing a bigger punch.

[BlobVanDam]

You're totally right. Except while I acknowledge that BCSL songs are too damn long, I like them anyway.
Six Degrees on the other hand...

 

OH NO YOU DINT!

[Implode]

Six Degrees was the last fully amazing album they've done. Everything since then has been good in sections at best and boring at worst.

[Sir Walrus Cauliflower]

Six Degrees was the last fully amazing album they've done. Everything since then has been good in sections at best and boring at worst.

The reason I love DT12 so much is because I think it broke free of that pattern. I think it's the first consistently good and interesting album since SDOIT. The worst part I find is AFTR, but I don't find it boring, and it's pretty short by DT standards. Every song is something I legitimately enjoy, and I don't have to dig through anything to "find the gems" so to speak.

[MoraWintersoul]

Six Degrees was the last fully amazing album they've done. Everything since then has been good in sections at best and boring at worst.

yup.

[Outcrier]

Six Degrees was the last fully amazing album they've done. Everything since then has been good in sections at best and boring at worst.

Yep.

[ThatOneGuy2112]

Six Degrees was the last fully amazing album they've done. Everything since then has been good in sections at best and boring at worst.

The reason I love DT12 so much is because I think it broke free of that pattern. I think it's the first consistently good and interesting album since SDOIT. The worst part I find is AFTR, but I don't find it boring, and it's pretty short by DT standards. Every song is something I legitimately enjoy, and I don't have to dig through anything to "find the gems" so to speak.

Yup, this pretty much. Though replace SDOIT with TOT.

[?]

DT12 is just way too heavy throughout to be representative of Dream Theater's overall sound, to me. Even Along for the Ride is a pretty heavy song. Plus, the album is entirely lacking songs in the 10-15 minute range, the mini-epics that are so important to DT's sound. It's short, generally more straightforward songs and then Illumination Theory. It's not really a well-rounded album in my judgement at all.

There are a few great songs on DT12, but listening to the whole album is a chore, because it suffers from a serious lack of dynamics (both musically and audio-wise).

[rumborak]

+1 on the often-quoted statement above.

Specifically, for me at least, with ToT started the "Saved by the epic" stretch. ToT was saved by SoC and ITNOG, 8V was saved by Octavarium, SC was not even saved by ITPOE, and BCSL was saved once again by TCOT.
Mind you, most of those albums had good other songs interspersed here and there, but overall, at least for me, without the strong epic at the end of the album, they would have all been below 5/10 for me. It also didn't help that each album was forced to have one 12SS song on it, and one "sounds like band X" song.

[425]

The Best of Times has some pretty fast and energetic riffs in it as well. The style alludes more to Hard Rock than Metal, but when it comes to ballads getting heavier and more epic, DT has always done things like that. Look at To Live Forever and The Spirit Carries On. They both start out mellow, but then build into something big and powerful, and I think AFTR fits perfectly well into that category.

The Best of Times is certainly energetic, but it's never at any point what I would call heavy. What I would say for The Spirit Carries On is that it definitely does start out mellow and become bigger and more powerful, and I agree that Along for the Ride fits into that category. However, SFAM is not a heavy album all the way through that relies on TSCO as its sole break. It already has Regression, Through My Words, Through Her Eyes and One Last Time to provide dynamics. But on DT12, AFTR is pretty much it in terms of an opportunity for a break, and it really doesn't provide one. Meanwhile TSCO was never intended as a break. It's intended as a climax.

I say, this by the way, while probably liking Along for the Ride better than a majority of people on this forum do. I would probably rank it third on the album behind The Bigger Picture and Illumination Theory.

Regarding this, I look at it in a completely different way. DT usually has a habit of ending their albums with an epic, be it around 13 minutes, or anywhere up to 25. Songs like Trial of Tears, ITNOG and Learning To Live apply to this category, but then, so do songs like Octavarium, In The Presence of Enemies and The Count of Tuscany. In DT12, Illumination Theory is that song, and even though it's 22 minutes, part of that is the Easter Egg, so the main component of the song itself is around 19 minutes, which is pretty much the same as TCOT.

I get this, but I'm going to counter it by saying this: All the albums that end with an epic have another epic song on the album. Falling Into Infinity has Lines in the Sand in addition to Trial of Tears. Train of Thought has a lot of epic songs in addition to In the Name of God; I would say Endless Sacrifice is the most epic. Images and Words has Metropolis, which is less than ten minutes but still epic in style and scope. Octavarium has Sacrificed Sons on top of the title track, Systematic Chaos has The Ministry of Lost Souls on top of ITPOE and Black Clouds & Silver Linings has A Nightmare to Remember. We could say, actually, for every album after WDADU, that it has two epics. Awake has Voices and Scarred, Scenes has Beyond This Life and Home, and Dramatic Turn has Outcry and Breaking All Illusions.

DT12 doesn't has these; it just has 8 short songs and the one epic. To me that's a bit of a strange anomaly, and one that make the album, to me personally, feel a bit less representative of the DT sound.

As for mini-epics I think it's more about the musical journey than about song length

I agree to an extent, which is why I would enumerate Metropolis and Voices (and maybe The Killing Hand? it's borderline) among the mini-epics despite the fact that these fall short of the 10-minute mark.

and DT12 may not have really long songs, but its 'epicness' is condensed in a big way, and still manages to take you through that musical journey and deliver songs that are as progressive as anything they've ever done.

Hmm. I think I have to disagree. Illumination Theory is one of their proggiest songs ever, but I don't think I could say that the rest of the disc is up to the usual DT standard for progginess. Maybe Behind the Veil and to a lesser degree Surrender to Reason, but I think if you compare it to, say, ADTOE, ADTOE is easily proggier.

Personally, I'd say Surrender to Reason at 6.5 minutes in itself is more of an epic than A Nightmare To Remember.

Umm... No.

I couldn't disagree more. Even taking into account the production and compression issues that the guitar tones face throughout the album, in no way does DT12 come close to the consistent heaviness and trashiness of an album like TOT. There's Vacant, sure, but that's one streak of white in a portrait painted black. I'm not denying that DT12 is a relatively heavy album, but I think we're forgetting that this is Dream Theater, one of the forerunners to the progressive metal genre. My point being that it's not as heavy as other DT albums and that it showcases a wide array of sounds even given the supposed limits to that genre label.

I'll agree with the bolded part but not with the underlined part. I think Train of Thought is the only one I could even get the argument for being heavier than DT12. I'll agree that Train of Thought is the darker of the two albums, but in terms of sheer heaviness the two are close together. But ToT has a greater sense of dynamics in the production, which leads to some non-heavy parts like Vacant or the middle of In the Name of God, while DT12 feels more cramped to me. In fact, I think that's what it is. DT12 feels too cramped to me. The music does not at any point ever breathe, while ToT is far roomier even while being heavy all the way through (and fairly compressed in terms of mastering as well).

While the mixing and mastering is most certainly a factor in how heavy an album may come across, it really doesn't come into play nearly as much as the actual song-writing and instrumentation do in delivering a particular mood that the band tries to convey.

Hmm. Perhaps. I think I can agree with the statement that ToT is heavier than DT12, with the caveat that it's far easier for me to listen to ToT because it sounds roomier while DT12 sounds cramped.

Again, I do acknowledge the varied moods and levels of intensity presented by BC&SL--it most certainly lives up to its name in presenting the light and shade that DT has to offer, but in the end I just feel that DT12 achieves the same exact thing but more thoroughly and with packing a bigger punch.

I think DT12 is actually not all that diverse in mood or intensity level. There's some diversity in the first few songs, but the second half of the album is all that same mood of being strong in the face of adversity. TBP, BTV, STR, AFTR, IT are both musically and lyrically of a similar mood to each other. I'll give the album credit for finding some different moods in TEI, TLG and EM, but I don't think there's as much diversity as on BCSL, where just about no song shares the same mood as another (I think there's some similarity between AROP and early TCOT, but aside from that...). There's also tons of variety within individual songs on BCSL—ANTR, TCOT, TBOT and TSF all have that kind of thing.

I like DT12, I really do, but I'm not in love with it, and I have trouble with it sometimes. While I always think that the songs of BCSL or ToT or FII or, of course, IAW are all very good, I have trouble listening to DT12 that often and regularly get frustrated with it. Even while liking it. I think I'm also frustrated that I don't feel the same way about it as some people do, especially since it was the first DT album whose release I awaited. But that's just the way it is for me with this one, unfortunately.


Now just to rock the boat:

Six Degrees was the last fully amazing album they've done. Everything since then has been good in sections at best and boring at worst.

Six Degrees is quite possibly the weakest album they've done, and probably only tops SC.

[ThatOneGuy2112]

I'll agree with the bolded part but not with the underlined part. I think Train of Thought is the only one I could even get the argument for being heavier than DT12. I'll agree that Train of Thought is the darker of the two albums, but in terms of sheer heaviness the two are close together. But ToT has a greater sense of dynamics in the production, which leads to some non-heavy parts like Vacant or the middle of In the Name of God, while DT12 feels more cramped to me. In fact, I think that's what it is. DT12 feels too cramped to me. The music does not at any point ever breathe, while ToT is far roomier even while being heavy all the way through (and fairly compressed in terms of mastering as well).

That's just it though. Vacant is a relatively short song. While I'm all for applauding the band for having the audacity and guts to insert such a quiet and heart-wrenching piece in the middle of all of this thrashy chaos that pervades the remaining hour or so of the record, it doesn't necessarily make it that much more diverse than any of their other albums, and this coming from someone who loves the album more than quite a few members on this board.

I don't hear DT12 as being cramped honestly. Despite the shorter song lengths, I feel that each track has enough room to breathe however much it needs to without over-staying its welcome, unlike DT's previous attempts at drawing out their song lengths as much as possible. That's not to say that all of their songs in the 10~ minutes range are like that, but that's certainly what I gather when listening to BC&SL and even a little bit of ADTOE.

I think DT12 is actually not all that diverse in mood or intensity level. There's some diversity in the first few songs, but the second half of the album is all that same mood of being strong in the face of adversity. TBP, BTV, STR, AFTR, IT are both musically and lyrically of a similar mood to each other. I'll give the album credit for finding some different moods in TEI, TLG and EM, but I don't think there's as much diversity as on BCSL, where just about no song shares the same mood as another (I think there's some similarity between AROP and early TCOT, but aside from that...). There's also tons of variety within individual songs on BCSL—ANTR, TCOT, TBOT and TSF all have that kind of thing.

I can see how BC&SL might be more diverse than DT12 in that department. In fact, I usually clump TBP, BTV, and STR as a trio in my mind when I think about DT12, but the way I see it is that while Black Clouds focuses on going between two extremes of a spectrum, DT12 finds middle ground while still deviating a good bit from that standard. The thing about BC&SL for me is that while I like the concept of delving in these two extremes--the light and shade, as the title suggests--it really would have worked so much better had it had tighter and more well-constructed song-writing and overall more cohesiveness to take you on through its journey. It really doesn't come off as engaging the way DT12 does.

I like DT12, I really do, but I'm not in love with it, and I have trouble with it sometimes. While I always think that the songs of BCSL or ToT or FII or, of course, IAW are all very good, I have trouble listening to DT12 that often and regularly get frustrated with it. Even while liking it. I think I'm also frustrated that I don't feel the same way about it as some people do, especially since it was the first DT album whose release I awaited. But that's just the way it is for me with this one, unfortunately.

I guess that's just where we have to disagree. DT12 is the second DT album I was actively anticipating since I first got into them right around BC&SL's release. I recall being completely hyped for ADTOE but being slightly disappointed. Not that it was a bad album--it was great--but it didn't live up to my ridiculous expectations, so when DT12 started to roll along, I made sure I wasn't going to over-hype it in the same way, and in fact, I wanted to be more critical of it despite this being one of my favorite bands. It has its flaws, yeah, but I really couldn't find things too bad about it without cherry-picking it. In the end, I couldn't help but love it and it's never really a chore to get through. Even now, here on the forums, the album is met with incredibly mixed reception, but screw it, I'll defend it for the foreseeable future.

[TheGreatPretender]

The Best of Times is certainly energetic, but it's never at any point what I would call heavy. What I would say for The Spirit Carries On is that it definitely does start out mellow and become bigger and more powerful, and I agree that Along for the Ride fits into that category. However, SFAM is not a heavy album all the way through that relies on TSCO as its sole break. It already has Regression, Through My Words, Through Her Eyes and One Last Time to provide dynamics. But on DT12, AFTR is pretty much it in terms of an opportunity for a break, and it really doesn't provide one. Meanwhile TSCO was never intended as a break. It's intended as a climax.

I guess it just comes down to the fact that I don't think DT12 is that heavy of an album. Yes, it doesn't have a stand alone dedicated ballad, but I don't feel like it needs one, because most of the songs on it are easily digestible. They have some heavy riffs, and some melodic parts, but on an album like SFAM, you need those ballads a lot more, and think about their placement. With songs like FT and BTL, you need a breather after something like that, and that applies even more to having Home and then TDOE back to back, you need to take a breather after an intense listening session like that, and that's what OLT and TSCO are for.
On DT12, there aren't any long, extended epic heavy songs that require such a breather. After TEI, we get TLG, which is a fairly lighthearted song, and same goes for The Bigger Picture following IT. They're not ballads, but they provide just enough levity after the craziness that preceeds them, and the whole album flows pretty much like that, so never at any point did I feel like, "Man, that's way too much intense music in a row, a ballad would really be nice right about now."

But I guess if you do consider it a heavy album, then I can understand why you'd think it needs that dedicated ballad.

I get this, but I'm going to counter it by saying this: All the albums that end with an epic have another epic song on the album. Falling Into Infinity has Lines in the Sand in addition to Trial of Tears. Train of Thought has a lot of epic songs in addition to In the Name of God; I would say Endless Sacrifice is the most epic. Images and Words has Metropolis, which is less than ten minutes but still epic in style and scope. Octavarium has Sacrificed Sons on top of the title track, Systematic Chaos has The Ministry of Lost Souls on top of ITPOE and Black Clouds & Silver Linings has A Nightmare to Remember. We could say, actually, for every album after WDADU, that it has two epics. Awake has Voices and Scarred, Scenes has Beyond This Life and Home, and Dramatic Turn has Outcry and Breaking All Illusions.

DT12 doesn't has these; it just has 8 short songs and the one epic. To me that's a bit of a strange anomaly, and one that make the album, to me personally, feel a bit less representative of the DT sound.

Granted that is true, but personally, I wouldn't just dismiss the album's content as "8 short songs", the kind of musical journey that most of those songs take you through is pretty epic in itself. Granted, that's not so strange for DT, they've had plenty of mini-mini-epics in their day, with songs like Surrounded, ADOE, Fatal Tragedy, etc. But usually there are also plenty of more straight forward songs like Lie, AROP, OTBOA, etc. With this album, I feel like almost every song has that small musical journey akin to having its own mini-instrumental break. Like I said, I'd say these are more than short songs. I'd just say they're condensed epics.

But whether you agree with me or not, I understand having certain patterns and expectations, but at the same time, let's not pigeon hole DT into being obligated to put stuff like that on their albums. Look at ADTOE, that was the first time we've had a ballad closing off the album since Awake, and I'm sure that everyone was expecting the last song on the album to be the epic, but they went against the usual pattern for something different.
This time around, they had 8 condensed songs along with one mega-epic, and no dedicated ballads. So maybe it's not the typical Dream Theater structure, but I would never say it's not the typical DT SOUND. In terms of Sound, in terms of musicianship, and instrumental twists and turns, this album was very true to what DT is all about.

Hmm. I think I have to disagree. Illumination Theory is one of their proggiest songs ever, but I don't think I could say that the rest of the disc is up to the usual DT standard for progginess. Maybe Behind the Veil and to a lesser degree Surrender to Reason, but I think if you compare it to, say, ADTOE, ADTOE is easily proggier.

I don't know if I'd say it's proggier. It is definitely more epic in that it has a much bigger sound. It sounds very grand, and the kinds of sounds that JR used made the songs sound much more... Almost orchestral in a way, and if that's how you define epic or proggy, then yeah.
But I'd also say that ADTOE was a much heavier album and again, going back to what I said before, after longer and heavier songs such as LNF and Outcry, you do need to have a ballad to give yourself that bit of a breather.

Personally, I'd say Surrender to Reason at 6.5 minutes in itself is more of an epic than A Nightmare To Remember.

Umm... No.

Well, I don't know what to say to that. Again, obviously, our definition of epic differs, then. Because while ANTR is a very long song, I wouldn't call it an epic. It's just really, really long, and has 2 distinct musical themes to it. That doesn't define an epic.

Now just to rock the boat:

Six Degrees was the last fully amazing album they've done. Everything since then has been good in sections at best and boring at worst.

Six Degrees is quite possibly the weakest album they've done, and probably only tops SC.

But that's not possible, since SC is better than Six Degrees.

How's that for rocking the boat?

[Viking of the Sagas]

In fact, SC is so good that I believe it may just be more creative, expressive and ballsy than any other DT album so far.

[Zook]

[ThatOneGuy2112]

In fact, SC is so good that I believe it may just be more creative, expressive and ballsy than any other DT album so far.

You forgot to green text that.

[Grizz]

 

[rumborak]

I actually decided to listen to SC today, after not having listened to it for several years probably. Man, it's bad. Some parts are to the point of comical.

[TheGreatPretender]

I actually decided to listen to SC today, after not having listened to it for several years probably. Man, it's amazing. Some parts are to the point of godly.

FTFY

[Outcrier]

I actually decided to listen to SC today, after not having listened to it for several years probably. Man, it's bad. Some parts are to the point of comical.

 

[King Postwhore]

SC just doesn't hook me.  I play that the second least of all DT albums.

[bosk1]

I play my edited version of it quite often.  Next to ADTOE and DT12, it is probably my currently-most played.  (I say "currently" because, simply by virtue of having it since 1992, I am sure I have played I&W more than any other DT album).

[King Postwhore]

I go in waves when it comes to albums.  I leave them alone for awhile then I play a certain disk and I overplay it again.  Of late besides DT12, I've been playing I&W and BC&SL a lot.

[ThatOneGuy2112]

SC isn't bad, just not as consistent or engaging as other DT albums, but for what it is, it's solid and even has some spectacular moments. That being said, I still rank it pretty low in the grand scheme of DT albums and is accordingly one of their albums I listen to the least outside the few songs that I truly love on it.

[King Postwhore]

Not saying it's bad at all but I just albums on my listening habits and I barely reach for it.  It just doesn't click with me and I'm a big DT fan.

[BlobVanDam]

In fact, SC is so good that I believe it may just be more creative, expressive and ballsy than any other DT album so far.

I'd put it up there, although not the very top. I think at the least, SDOIT and SFAM are more creative.
And I still like SC more than anything that's come since.

[TheGreatPretender]

I'd put it up there, although not the very top. I think at the least, SDOIT and SFAM are more creative.
And I still like SC more than anything that's come since.

Well, there's something we can agree on.  Both statements, in fact.

[Rodni Demental]

Quite a few things I want to respond to but there's too many pages since I've been here. 

So I'll just say; I love SC for it's creativity. Say what you want about the compositions, themes, presentation. There's no doubt it's one of there most unique albums as they were deliberately being a bit quirky and silly and just generally having fun with it. What with all the fans coming in and contributing aswell, it's quite a special and creative album by DT standards (whatever those are).

BL&SL I love for it's diversity. I completely agree with the comment about each song feeling completing different from the next, which is something that can't be said for very many albums at all.

And I think DT12 is epic in and of itself. Even if the individuals songs don't have that 'grand' scale. The smaller pieces are really just parts of a bigger picture which I believe is what the band's vision was with this album anyway.

Finally, the idea that AFTR is not a ballad doesn't sit comfortably with me. I can appreciate where that feeling comes from (seeing as it can be somewhat subjective to define these things) as the song is quite dynamic and builds momentum which aren't necessarily traditionally or predominantly features of this label. But to me.. it's totally a ballad. I can consider it being separated among the other DT 'ballads', but play that song to a non DT fan and they'll tell you it's a ballad.

[hefdaddy42]

I will agree with two things posted above.

1. Along For The Ride is a ballad, and I am flabbergasted that anyone would argue otherwise.

2. A Nightmare to Remember is a really long song, but there is nothing remotely epic about it.

[Implode]

SC is probably the most consistent album they've released.

It just happens that for me, it's consistently boring.

[bosk1]

I go in waves when it comes to albums.  I leave them alone for awhile then I play a certain disk and I overplay it again.  Of late besides DT12, I've been playing I&W and BC&SL a lot.

Yeah, that is the album that got me into Trivium in the first place.  But now you are off topic.

In fact, SC is so good that I believe it may just be more creative, expressive and ballsy than any other DT album so far.

I'd put it up there, although not the very top. I think at the least, SDOIT and SFAM are more creative.
And I still like SC more than anything that's come since.

For me, it is just that it is inconsistent.  The best songs stand right up there with the best songs DT has written.  But then there are others that are at or near the bottom for me.  As I have often said, it would have made a great EP.  And if you could take the best half of SC and the best half of I&W, you would easily have the most consistent, spectacular album of all time.

[nikatapi]

For me, SC was the first album that made me doubt the band's artistic direction, in terms of production, in terms of lyrics, in terms of vocal arrangements and song structures. While i enjoy a large part of it, it seems to be that after Octavarium the band fell into a very formulaic period, with a predefined idea of what the DT sound is and a newfound love for modern metal elements, especially on the vocals.

While it is not as bad as BC&SL which might be my least favorite overall, it's still very inconsistent and there are parts (instrumental part of Ministry Of Souls for example) that make me wonder how much better it would be with the help of an external producer.