Your Controversial Opinions on DT

[rumborak]

Another not-often talked about "influenced section" is the end of Octavarium (the song), which is essentially the same as Kansas' The Wall.

[Scorpion]

I wouldn't care a lot if it weren't one of the most boring and overrated DT moments ever.

[TheGreatPretender]

Even DT have admitted it was a U2 inspired song.

Oh, I have a great idea! DT should write a sequel to the song, called "I Walk Beside You 2". GET IT?

That's just.... Bad. ... Get it?

[RodrigoAltaf]

Another not-often talked about "influenced section" is the end of Octavarium (the song), which is essentially the same as Kansas' The Wall.

Wow! I´d never noticed that, and hadn´t heard the song since AT LEAST 1998. Gave it a spin just now, and although I definitely see the influence all through Octavarium, I think both are awesome songs in their own right.

[PetFish]

Speak To Me called.  They want their "U2" designation back.

Kidding aside...

I'm in the "seriously, who the fuck cares" camp if songs are similar to previous songs.  Call it an homage.  Call it a coincidence.  Call it an inspiration (corner).  But when people start throwing around the "ripoff" tag it makes it sound like a terrible thing when most of the time that's not what is really meant.

Considering all of the music that's ever been written it's a wonder how anyone can write anything these days that someone doesn't say "hey, that sounds like <other song> by <some artist> back in <some year> from <some album>".  I look at is as being if I can recognize a small part or feeling from a song I know from the past then I give myself bonus points cuz I "get it".  But if you're telling someone it's a "blahblah" ripoff they might feel turned-off whereas if you tell them it was inspired by "blahblah" they might think that's cool and go check out that artist they maybe haven't heard of and now be opened to some new music.  Like I checked out Muse when you guys started talking about them back in the day and I had never even heard of them.  More bonus points for me.

It's all about the context and the wording, especially on forums where it's just text and no feel.

[TheGreatPretender]

Of course when you consider the fact that everything is a derivative of something that came before it, it goes even further into the "who gives a crap" territory.
Either you like a song or you don't. If someone says, "Well, it sounds like U2, but I like U2 and DT just did it badly, so I don't like this song," then that's kind of a stupid statement. Just say you don't like that song, and that's that.

[rumborak]

I dunno. To quote Mike Mangini on this very topic: "If I wanted DT to sound like Kreator, I'd buy a Kreator record instead."

[Scorpion]

Imagine JLB doing Flag of Hate!

[The Holy Tune]

Another not-often talked about "influenced section" is the end of Octavarium (the song), which is essentially the same as Kansas' The Wall.

Wow! I´d never noticed that, and hadn´t heard the song since AT LEAST 1998. Gave it a spin just now, and although I definitely see the influence all through Octavarium, I think both are awesome songs in their own right.

Razor's Edge section certainly has some pieces from The Wall. But I also heard some Losing Time in it, well, more than "some".

[RodrigoAltaf]

 How about the beginning of Surrounded, which mirrors this Queen epic: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2T-iaa3BiEY&index=2&list=PL542DBE9B16A17E7A

[BlobVanDam]

How about the beginning of Surrounded, which mirrors this Queen epic: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2T-iaa3BiEY&index=2&list=PL542DBE9B16A17E7A

Damn! Why is this the first I've ever heard of this?

[RodrigoAltaf]

How about the beginning of Surrounded, which mirrors this Queen epic: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2T-iaa3BiEY&index=2&list=PL542DBE9B16A17E7A

Damn! Why is this the first I've ever heard of this?

 I KNOW!!! I found this out a few weeks ago, and my jaw dropped as I was listening to it!

[TheGreatPretender]

That one genuinely sounds like it could've just seeped into K-Mo's subconscious. I wouldn't be surprised if he heard the song ages ago, and then forgot all about it by the time they recorded I&W.

[The Holy Tune]

How about the beginning of Surrounded, which mirrors this Queen epic: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2T-iaa3BiEY&index=2&list=PL542DBE9B16A17E7A

Damn! Why is this the first I've ever heard of this?

 I KNOW!!! I found this out a few weeks ago, and my jaw dropped as I was listening to it!

I knew I heard Surrounded's intro before somewhere! God, it must've been a loooong while since I've last listened to Father to Son.

[Grizz]

I have a theory.

Some people have pointed out that some of DT's less acclaimed work from the middle era keeps going through various renaissances, one at a time. For example, suddenly I'm seeing widespread acclaim for FII that wasn't there before. A couple of years ago it was Six Degrees. I think that it has to do with the similarities in song structures from newer albums.

Systematic Chaos, in '07, was heavy and different, much like the suddenly acclaimed Train of Thought.

Black Clouds and Silver Linings was released in 2009, and re-introduced the idea from Six Degrees about long, experimental, proggy songs that take a bit of listening to digest.

2013 brought Dream Theater which had several FII-style songs that are easy to digest, accessible, and relatively mellow.

Anyone else seeing this?

[bosk1]

I noticed VERY early on in my DT-fandom that they were very good at incorporating styles of other bands into their music, and that they would often create soundscapes that were instantly recognizable as similar to those other bands without copying actual songs from those bands.  It is one of the things that I have always appreciated about them.  I can see where some fans might not like that aspect of DT's music or might consider it "unoriginal," but I have always liked it for the most part.

And that being said, I have always thought it was pretty obvious that I Walk Beside You sounded inspired by U2.  Like a LOT of other fans, I did not NEED to be told that the band were trying to do so.  It was just obvious to me from listening to the song.  Kev, that's cool that you don't hear it, but a lot of us do and always have.  It is definitely there. 

[BlobVanDam]

I have a theory.

Some people have pointed out that some of DT's less acclaimed work from the middle era keeps going through various renaissances, one at a time. For example, suddenly I'm seeing widespread acclaim for FII that wasn't there before. A couple of years ago it was Six Degrees. I think that it has to do with the similarities in song structures from newer albums.

Systematic Chaos, in '07, was heavy and different, much like the suddenly acclaimed Train of Thought.

Black Clouds and Silver Linings was released in 2009, and re-introduced the idea from Six Degrees about long, experimental, proggy songs that take a bit of listening to digest.

2013 brought Dream Theater which had several FII-style songs that are easy to digest, accessible, and relatively mellow.

Anyone else seeing this?

Sorry, not really.
I think albums get more appreciated over time, but I don't think there's any connection with newer albums, I think maybe they've just aged well after the initial expectations of what a DT album *should* be have gone.

[hefdaddy42]

I agree with bosk1 and Blob.

[NotePad]

I don't know if i said this all ready, I'm too lazy to look, but ADTOE should have been DT's self-titled album. It sounds the most like 'classic' DT, like I&W and SFAM (my least favorite DT albums, but i wont get into that...). Whereas the S/T album should have been called something else, like Illumination Theory or something

The ending of 8VM, when Labrie is shouting 'Trapped inside this octavarium', i was reminded of Tool's song Lateralus by the way both song build up to this great climax at the end. Doing that is a great strategy to end an epic i must say. Both those songs build up and climax in a way that feels better than when I climax on a day to day basis.... I don't know if that influenced DT in writing it, but it DOES remind me of it.

[bl5150]

Both those songs build up and climax in a way that feels better than when I climax on a day to day basis....

So better than listening to Helloween? 

[BlobVanDam]

I don't know if i said this all ready, I'm too lazy to look, but ADTOE should have been DT's self-titled album. It sounds the most like 'classic' DT, like I&W and SFAM (my least favorite DT albums, but i wont get into that...). Whereas the S/T album should have been called something else, like Illumination Theory or something

Out of the two MM albums, ADTOE is certainly more fitting for the title, although I still don't think they should have done a S/T album at all.

[GasparXR]

I don't know if i said this all ready, I'm too lazy to look, but ADTOE should have been DT's self-titled album. It sounds the most like 'classic' DT, like I&W and SFAM (my least favorite DT albums, but i wont get into that...). Whereas the S/T album should have been called something else, like Illumination Theory or something

I see what you mean, but their intention of self-titling it was because they felt it represented who they are musically today, not their classic sound.

[bl5150]

I see what you mean, but their intention of self-titling it was because they felt it represented who they are musically today, not their classic sound.

Exactly

[BlobVanDam]

I don't know if i said this all ready, I'm too lazy to look, but ADTOE should have been DT's self-titled album. It sounds the most like 'classic' DT, like I&W and SFAM (my least favorite DT albums, but i wont get into that...). Whereas the S/T album should have been called something else, like Illumination Theory or something

I see what you mean, but their intention of self-titling it was because they felt it represented who they are musically today, not their classic sound.

But pretty much every album represents where a band is today! I think it's a pretty empty thing to do really.

[TheGreatPretender]

I don't know if i said this all ready, I'm too lazy to look, but ADTOE should have been DT's self-titled album. It sounds the most like 'classic' DT, like I&W and SFAM (my least favorite DT albums, but i wont get into that...). Whereas the S/T album should have been called something else, like Illumination Theory or something

If you ask me, DT12 has a much more classic DT sound than ADTOE.

[mikeyd23]

But pretty much every album represents where a band is today! I think it's a pretty empty thing to do really.

I get where you are coming from and you are right, every new album is a representation of where the band is at that point in time. But, in DT's case they definitely have been releasing albums over the last 10 years or so that aren't always fully representative of the entirety of the band's sound.  ToT was the metal-style album, 8V was the classic prog style album, SC was the fun metal album, etc, etc... So while those albums do represent where the band was at when they were released, they don't necessarily represent the full scope of DT.

I feel that both ADTOE and DT12, love them or hate them, do a better job at providing listeners with a more complete picture of what makes up DT.  The metal elements, the prog elements, the melodic elements, the song writing chops, etc...

So I think that's why it makes sense to self title DT12, because it provides a pretty complete picture of all the elements that make up the mixed bag that is Dream Theater, you know? 

[BlobVanDam]

But pretty much every album represents where a band is today! I think it's a pretty empty thing to do really.

I get where you are coming from and you are right, every new album is a representation of where the band is at that point in time. But, in DT's case they definitely have been releasing albums over the last 10 years or so that aren't always fully representative of the entirety of the band's sound.  ToT was the metal-style album, 8V was the classic prog style album, SC was the fun metal album, etc, etc... So while those albums do represent where the band was at when they were released, they don't necessarily represent the full scope of DT.

I feel that both ADTOE and DT12, love them or hate them, do a better job at providing listeners with a more complete picture of what makes up DT.  The metal elements, the prog elements, the melodic elements, the song writing chops, etc...

So I think that's why it makes sense to self title DT12, because it provides a pretty complete picture of all the elements that make up the mixed bag that is Dream Theater, you know? 

I can see your point with ADTOE, but not so much with DT12. I don't think it shows a lot of DT's variety of songwriting styles or structures. And I don't think any album fully showcases every side of DT, even though some obviously come closer than others.
It also doesn't help that I consider both albums easily among DT's weaker albums, so neither album is what I would give to someone to show them what DT is about.

[mikeyd23]

I can see your point with ADTOE, but not so much with DT12. I don't think it shows a lot of DT's variety of songwriting styles or structures. And I don't think any album fully showcases every side of DT, even though some obviously come closer than others.
It also doesn't help that I consider both albums easily among DT's weaker albums, so neither album is what I would give to someone to show them what DT is about.

Yeah personal preference clearly comes into play here, and I liked DT12 (and ADTOE for that matter) more than you, so that certainly affects my perspective. Now that I'm thinking about it more, I think I would agree with you that ADTOE might be more representative of DT's sound than DT12.  And I also agree that no one single DT album can showcase all that DT has to offer, but like I said before, I feel ADTOE and DT12 come closer to giving listeners "The Bigger Picture"  of what DT is, more so than all their studio efforts since SDOIT.

[425]

I feel that both ADTOE and DT12, love them or hate them, do a better job at providing listeners with a more complete picture of what makes up DT.  The metal elements, the prog elements, the melodic elements, the song writing chops, etc...

I'm just going to say it and watch the sparks fly:

ADTOE, yes. DT12, not really. BCSL... yes. WAY more so than DT12.

[ThatOneGuy2112]

I feel that both ADTOE and DT12, love them or hate them, do a better job at providing listeners with a more complete picture of what makes up DT.  The metal elements, the prog elements, the melodic elements, the song writing chops, etc...

I'm just going to say it and watch the sparks fly:

ADTOE, yes. DT12, not really. BCSL... yes. WAY more so than DT12.

Eh, not really. I feel that BC&SL provides listeners with only a very narrow scope of DT's capabilities and, if anything, more than any other DT album only displays their sound during that exact moment in time. You have the metal and the prog, yeah, but the melodic and song writing elements are definitely what's absent that ADTOE and DT12 demonstrate far better.

[425]

I disagree. I think BCSL is one of DT's most melodic albums, actually. Look at The Count of Tuscany and The Best of Times, let alone the rest of the album. Maybe the songwriting, yes, in terms of what I call the poppy side of Dream Theater, but there's still some of that, I think. At least in Wither, and I would argue that A Rite of Passage and the midsection of A Nightmare to Remember have some of those attributes.

DT12 is just way too heavy throughout to be representative of Dream Theater's overall sound, to me. Even Along for the Ride is a pretty heavy song. Plus, the album is entirely lacking songs in the 10-15 minute range, the mini-epics that are so important to DT's sound. It's short, generally more straightforward songs and then Illumination Theory. It's not really a well-rounded album in my judgement at all. BCSL is.

I think Mike Portnoy was right when he said that BCSL is an album with, as I recall, TGP, LTL and ACOS (plus maybe a couple others?) all on one album. It really is a summary of all of Dream Theater's sound, encompassing all its different aspects (which couldn't really have be said at the time about any album since Scenes from a Memory).

[ThatOneGuy2112]

BC&SL is certainly varied, yes. Several moments come off as poppy and others as completely bashin' and heavy. But I feel that the group's effort to tie those elements all nicely together to create something cohesive, tight, and memorable didn't exactly carry through for the better. Of course, that's just my opinion, and I won't expect everyone to share the thought.

The thing about BC&SL as well is how it represents DT mostly during the years leading up to its release but not much before that, whereas DT12 I think does a splendid job at giving listeners a taste of the classic DT sound in a more modern form, as opposed to ADTOE, which took a lot of inspiration from their classic sound but didn't update it quite as much imo.

I can agree that Black Clouds is varied and contains many melodic sections and has the prog and the metal to back it up for a traditional DT sound, but I don't think you're giving DT12 the credit it deserves. Sure there are some heavy songs, particularly in TEI and EM, but also the ballad in the form of AFTR, and anthemic which comes with TBP. Song lengths aside, I feel that even after the tighter song writing and their ability to tone back some of the song lengths, it still gives you a pretty good idea of the DT sound in a more concise package that flows much better.

[TheGreatPretender]

I don't understand how people can call DT12 a heavy album. Sure, it has heavy moments in it, but overall, I'd say there are plenty of DT albums heavier than DT12.
TOT, SC, Awake, ADTOE and on the whole, I'd say BCSL is a heavier album than DT12, in spite of having melodic parts.
Compared to DT's sound post 2000, I wouldn't call DT12 a particularly heavy album.

[Implode]

I honestly think people mistake the muddled mix and mastering for being heavy.

[Viking of the Sagas]

Guitar has a huge role in the composing and it's a heavy guitar sound. The mastering, obviously geared towards making it sound more heavy, isn't also a problem as I see it. Why not call it heavy?