Your Controversial Opinions on DT

[Madman Shepherd]

SW isn't industry standard. He's award-winning internationally-recognised exceptional.

And believe it or not, Dream Theater rakes in a *ton* of money, enough money to apparently rent a professional studio in New York (of all places) for months. And more than enough money to hire a top-notch producer that would get them a good sound.

The recent Paul Northfield interview had this issue addressed and he said that studios now cost 1/3 of what they used to. 

So, if you don't like the conclusion that they're on autopilot, the only two remaining conclusions to me are 1) they don't hear it or 2) they don't care (in the sense of "yeah, we know it's shoddy sound, but that's what sells these days")

orrrrrrr 3) The issue is way overblown by the fans and it is not much of an issue at all

Option 3 is what I'm going with

[robwebster]

Definitely - but that does fall under 1) they don't hear it! They don't hear it, the fans don't hear it, most people don't hear it cos they're not listening to the album in that way. That's not to say the problems aren't there, but their mixes are average at worst, rarely if ever abominable. It's fair to say there's flaws with all of them, but it's also telling that nobody can really agree on what the worst-mixed album is. There's no Vapor Trails.

[ReaPsTA]

Or in other words, they're not as good at mixing because they're... not as good at mixing! They can do it decently well to an industry standard, but we've never had a DT album where everything sounds pristine and clear and gorgeous. I think you're massively overestimating how easy it is to make an album sound like The Raven that Refused to Sing, though.

I&W, Awake, and FII are all pretty good sounding albums, and the band had little to no control over how they sounded (they were actually kicked out of the Awake mixing session).

[theseoafs]

Perhaps, but for them, at this stage of their careers, to release an album as muddy-sounding as ADTOE is a major WTF; same with Rush's Clockwork Angels.  I love both of those records, but both should sound so much better.  I blame Roadrunner.

That's the thing, though.  I don't know why we're expecting Rush or DT to have really good production.  They're obviously not snobs for sound quality.  Wilson is a sound-quality snob, but he's exceptional.  That's not the status quo these days.  A great musician is not a great producer, and it's an uncommon musician that has a really good ear for production.

[MoraWintersoul]

Kevin Moore is a marginally fairer comparison... but not much. KevMo's not been nominated for awards, but you're still comparing a band of musician/songwriters to a passionate producer/engineer with a good fifteen albums' experience under his belt. Music engineer in better-at-mixing-than-guitarist shocker!

It's not the conclusion that one's better than the other that's wrong - I agree, SW and KevMo release better-sounding albums - but the contention that they're getting lazier because they're continuing to not excel at something they've never really excelled at is a really spurious argument. And yet, somehow, not the most inane in that post - I disregarded the cover art thing as it didn't really bear discussion, but if we're on the subject, Octavarium's far and away the most effort they've ever put into any album booklet and they had to fix that one up after its original reveal, too. It's fine to have a pet theory, but the attempts to produce evidence for it are really not doing it much credit.

KevMo's involvement in producing/engineering over the years has been about as big as JP's actually - for the first two Chroma Key albums, he's had the major help of Steve Tushar, and he's only done one Chroma Key record and two soundtracks all alone or with marginal help. But they are all very low-key records, as good as they sound.  OSI's production can be compared to DT's, those records sound gorgeous, and that's something Kevin and Jim Matheos do together - but when it's time to do the drum sound and how it fits into the bigger picture, they usually call someone else, because they admit that's something they don't really know how to do.

So, the difference between Kevin/Jim and JP is that they're good at knowing what their weak spot is, and who to call to get it perfectly right. But I don't blame JP for any faulty producing or whatever. Just because he's a musician, it doesn't mean he's an audiophile.

And just because a few thousand audiophiles (if even that many) complain on the internet about virtually every non-SW record that got out in the last 20 years, it doesn't mean that the albums sound bad to everyone else. Loudness is the industry standard now, even though now it has been rendered unnecessary for the most part. Maybe someday soon it will go away, but until then expect compression and learn to deal with it. Hearing this over and over is kind of like hearing my grandma complaining today's furniture isn't as sturdy as it used to be - of course it isn't, they're making it so on purpose, so you could replace it sooner, that's what it's for, that's how the world is turning nowadays.

In my head, exceptional producing is as hard to run across as exceptional songwriting - a lot of the stuff that comes out every year will just sound substandard. Only a few dozen will have that immaculate sound. Sadly, a lot of those which have immaculate sound won't be the ones with the songwriting which appeals most to you or in the genre you're looking for.

[wasteland]

The only time I had a problem with DT's sound was the day I first heard DT12, on soundcloud. First and only, and on a platform that was highly detrimental to the quality. I have never had a problem with how the two most recent albums sounded, and whatever production/mixing gap there may be between those two and the aforementioned SW releases, it wasn't so clear and audible to my ears to be bothersome.

So, either: 1- my ear is exceptionally uneducated or unresponsive to be unable to tell between canned tuna and ventresca, or 2- I'm somewhat in the average with regard to this , which would make pursuing certain standards of prduction a pure mannerism of style being that it's not clearly already on the top of the band's list of priorities. I'm leaning on a mix of the two, really. I am aware I'm not the most audio-sensitive person around (I can barely hear the difference between an mp3 and a lossless stream), but I'm with Milena when she says that those who are bothered by the supposedly bad sound are but a small percentage of the fandom.

[ReaPsTA]

That's the thing, though.  I don't know why we're expecting Rush or DT to have really good production.  They're obviously not snobs for sound quality.  Wilson is a sound-quality snob, but he's exceptional.  That's not the status quo these days.  A great musician is not a great producer, and it's an uncommon musician that has a really good ear for production.

The problem is that, when you listen to them talk about their, you can tell they care a lot about how it sounds.  If they care that much, and the product still isn't turning out as well as it can, then something's wrong with the process.

[Madman Shepherd]

Definitely - but that does fall under 1) they don't hear it! They don't hear it, the fans don't hear it, most people don't hear it cos they're not listening to the album in that way. That's not to say the problems aren't there, but their mixes are average at worst, rarely if ever abominable. It's fair to say there's flaws with all of them, but it's also telling that nobody can really agree on what the worst-mixed album is. There's no Vapor Trails.

Exactly! 

I have a friend that has a small time (read: REALLY small time) recording studio but he obviously has a good enough ear to get people to pay him money to come record (most rap to his chagrin) at his apartment.  He complained about the over processing that Dream Theater does and even though he obviously knows more about sound engineering than me, he used the exact same arguments, nearly word for word, that I read on the internet. 

Now, I get the loudness war and I can tell the difference between a "loud" mastering job and a "traditional non-loud job", Dream Theater has been one of lesser offenders in my eyes/ears, even though I can tell a slight difference, but with how much care Dream Theater puts into their records, I wouldn't doubt if they are aware but it is one of the concessions they make for whatever reason (money? time?) and simply do not pay much mind to the extremely small percentage of fans who are outraged. 

[425]

Honestly, while I typically side with robwebster just in all things and I typically am more defensive than critical of Dream Theater, I'm going to have to generally lean in the other direction with this one.

First a word on mastering:
I don't mind a slightly loud master if it's well done (I'm talking like Falling Into Infinity), but yes, I am bothered by crappy mastering. Systematic Chaos and Dream Theater would give me a headache before I downloaded the HDTracks versions. And yes, the HDTracks solves some of this, but it's damn expensive, and so it's a ridiculous cost for people like me who like to have the CD and the booklet and all. I really don't get why there has to be a special download for the good-sounding version.

If you don't hear it, that's great. I'm not being sarcastic or flippant, I mean that really is great for you. I wish I also couldn't hear it. But it's really not any harder to master it in such a way that it sounds good to everyone, so it frustrates me that they don't do that.


On the mix, I really do not like the mixes for the last two albums at all. I'm not an expert so I'm not sure if something can be objectively said to be poorly done, but a lot of people here do seem to be saying that, so if they're right, then I agree that DT and Roadrunner really do need to get things together and improve that state of affairs. There's no way they don't have the money to hire a good mixer.

[rumborak]

And just because a few thousand audiophiles (if even that many) complain on the internet about virtually every non-SW record that got out in the last 20 years, it doesn't mean that the albums sound bad to everyone else.

This might be the key in this whole thing. Those "few thousand audiophiles" used to be DT's core market, i.e. us, the die-hard fans that would show up show after show over the years, wanting the perfect fusion of skill, sound and complexity.
I don't think we're the core target audience anymore. DT has gone mainstream with RoadRunner, and that means more metal, more compression, more leather.

[Madman Shepherd]

But it's really not any harder to master it in such a way that it sounds good to everyone, so it frustrates me that they don't do that.

Then why wouldn't they?  Theres gotta be more to it than that.

[Jaffa]

And just because a few thousand audiophiles (if even that many) complain on the internet about virtually every non-SW record that got out in the last 20 years, it doesn't mean that the albums sound bad to everyone else.

This might be the key in this whole thing. Those "few thousand audiophiles" used to be DT's core market

Really?  Because as far as I can tell, DT's sound has never been audiophile quality. 

[rumborak]

Man, you know what I meant. The original core market of Dream Theater was "audiophile" in the sense that it was coming from the prog scene and wanted clear, lush, complex soundscapes.  Sound discussions were not an issue in the past, that's for sure. Sure, FII stood out as particularly awesome, but discussions about albums back in the day were almost solely about the songs themselves, not what they are today, which is half about the songs and half about the massive amount of compression and bad sound of the instruments.

[Jaffa]

Man, you know what I meant. The original core market of Dream Theater was "audiophile" in the sense that it was coming from the prog scene and wanted clear, lush, complex soundscapes.  Sound discussions were not an issue in the past, that's for sure. Sure, FII stood out as particularly awesome, but discussions about albums back in the day were almost solely about the songs themselves, not what they are today, which is half about the songs and half about the massive amount of compression and bad sound of the instruments.

What I'm saying is that I don't think the audiophile was ever DT's core market.  I think DT's core audience has always cared a lot more about musicianship than sound quality.  And I count myself among that group - I really don't care about mixing and mastering and production issues.  The music is all that matters to me.  I don't expect everyone to feel the same way, of course.  I just can't agree with this idea that DT has alienated their die-hard fans by not having great production.  A lot of the die-hard fans started being die-hard fans with WDADU, after all.

[rumborak]

If we're not part of their core constituency, then who is? We're the ones discussing them for years on end.
Also, I would never consider myself a true audiophile either given how I listen to bands from the 70s with very mediocre sound, but DT12 made me an "audiophile". I have put the album on randomly over the last few months while at work, alongside other DT albums, and it *always* stood out as causing major ear fatigue. By the time IT's orchestral section comes around it's like coming out of a really loud bar where you suddenly realize how oppressively loud the last hour was.

[Jaffa]

If we're not part of their core constituency, then who is? We're the ones discussing them for years on end.

I guess the point I'm trying to make is that you aren't speaking for all of us.  Yes, there are people on this forum who has issues with the sound quality of DT's latest albums, but there are also people here who defend DT and say those issues are overblown - as evidenced by this thread.

But I'm gonna shush now.  I'm not really reacting to the substance of what you're trying to say, more to an attitude I sense in the way you're saying it.  Ignore me!   

[Rodni Demental]

I can recognise some of the issues when it's pointed out, but production is generally not my first consideration when I listen to an album unless it's obviously substandard or made with inferior technology. I didn't give two hoots about the production quality of ADTOE/DT12 or Luna Park, I mean, I know it would be nice if the sound was expressed more delicately sometimes for an 'ultimate listening experience' so to speak, other than actually seeing them live. But I think the original core fanbase that were die hard about DT were more appreciative of the compositional structure and the complex arrangement of musical patterns among different instruments, rather than the presentation of these ideas, which as mentioned probably didn't occur as much back then regarding the production quality. Attending a concert is also different, because it's about the music and a lot of these people are more interested in the theoretical structure of the music, what the chord shifts are, how crazy the guitar solo is, probably trying to learn how to play the songs themselves and express it in their own way. I just wouldn't want to let production alter my judgement too much regarding how I would feel about a song.

I guess the paradox in our difference of opinion is that I am an objective observer whether the writer wanted that or not, but I'm also feeling out the song as I experience it. So perhaps I should appreciate what song is meant to evoke, but I can't really help what that will be on a personal level and I guess that naturally changes over time, at the end of the day, any song won't feel the same way it did the first time you heard it, so I suppose the way it makes you feel after many listens will determine if it stands the test of time. And turn into a good or bad cheese.

You are fooling yourself if you think there's such a thing as objectivity when it comes to music.

Just wanted to say, it wasn't objectivity regarding the music because I understand that doesn't really exist, it was in the sense that I AM an objective observer from the outside (as we are we all). The subjectivity is in the interpretation and communication of those ideas, but you can objectively listen with no personal attachments or emotional investment to a song (much unlike the writer), right up until you have a personal experience which kinda happens the first time you hear something unless you're really not tuned in or focusing on the song at all. But objectivity goes out the window as soon as emotions come into play, and any way to agree on what it's about. But truth is a lot of writers could not possibly intend all the unrelated connections that every different person might experience from their music.

How is that line not sincere? It's a feeling, not a scientific analysis!! Yes, of course the world didn't end, but sometimes you can feel like that, even if it isn't true. If they emotions were rational they wouldn't be called emotions. The song brings the feeling of despair and it does a great job all the way through. I can picture a guy in a small apartment, dishes not washed, everything a mess, a piano on the side, staring numb at a TV and channel surfing at 3 a.m. From the outsider perspective you know "I'll never be open again" it's probably not true, but this is not a song from the outside, and, unlike a lot of Dream Theater songs, it's not a full story, like a movie, it's more a photograph. A photograph of a particular moment, and like every picture, it only shows you a fraction of the truth, but in that particular moment that fraction is all that matters, all your world. It's called obsession, which is one of the main themes of the song.
And it's not meant to be a song for all occasions, in fact no song is, it represents a particular moment in a person's life, but just a moment. Of course it passes, but that's not the point of the song. There's also a thing called "dramatic effect", which a lot of writers use, but this isn't a case for SDV, in fact, it's a very sincere song all the way through, just because you can't relate to it it doesn't make it fake.

Completely agree with pretty much everything you said here, except to me, the lack of sincerity was my experience from the line. Maybe I'm less likely to believe something that starts with the idea of never, I suppose there's a lot of time between the ideas of never, now and forever, so when that line gets filtered through my belief system through my experience, it didn't feel sincere. But in all fairness, I'm skipping out the part where it's still possible for it to originally have been from a sincere place. But I'm my own objective observer and if I'm going to be told an incomplete story, then like anyone I'm going to naturally, even if roughly, fill in the gaps. I wouldn't mean to take anything away from how anyone else feels from their experiences with the song though..

[?]

I don't mind a slightly loud master if it's well done (I'm talking like Falling Into Infinity)

Exactly. I do find DT12 unnecessarily loud, but it's the sound itself that bothers me more, or at least the drums. I'm not an audiophile who listens to LPs and 5.1 mixes in a candle-lit room with his eyes closed, but I'm a music fan who wants to hear decent-sounding records.

I don't mind the production of WDADU, because it was recorded 25 years ago and they had a minimal budget, but DT12 was recorded last year and they spent months working on it, yet it sounds mediocre at best by today's standards. It's frustrating because you know DT can do better (see: Awake, FII, SDOIT) and even James' latest two albums sound great - hell, they were released within the past 4 years like ADTOE and DT12! Is it unrealistic to expect well-produced records from a big progressive metal band that has 12 studio albums under its belt? You know something is wrong when loads of younger and smaller bands make better-sounding releases in their home studios.

[Sir Walrus Cauliflower]

It's frustrating because you know DT can do better (see: Awake, FII, SDOIT, I&W, TOT, 8VM)

Fixed.

I might say BCASL, SC, ADTOE, and SFAM have better sound.

I am a big fan of the songs themselves, and I don't even hate the drum sound the way some people do, but it does seem like white noise. It's just loud and muddy (or sounds like that to me). I'm sure the HDTracks version clears some of that up, but I already bought the CD. I don't think I should spend another $20 to make it sound like it could have in the first place. It's the only album I listen to (I don't listen to WDADU) that actively annoys me with sound quality. Every other album to me sounds open and big, like it's exploring. DT12 sounds rather like it was recorded in a cardboard box.

I rank it 4th though, I still love it to death.

[Rodni Demental]

As far as controversial opinions go, I don't think Awake has very good production. I mean it's pretty raw, you could debate it might have fairly good mixing, but if good production means pretty much no production then Awake probably sounds great by todays standards as opposed to overproducing. it's just; I never thought it sounded that great (songwriting of course is a different story) and feels like a bit of an anomaly comparing it to I&W and FII beside it.

[Sir Walrus Cauliflower]

As far as controversial opinions go, I don't think Awake has very good production. I mean it's pretty raw, you could debate it might have fairly good mixing, but if good production means pretty much no production then Awake probably sounds great by todays standards as opposed to overproducing. it's just; I never thought it sounded that great (songwriting of course is a different story) and feels like a bit of an anomaly comparing it to I&W and FII beside it.

I'll go with you on that, but I still think it sounds more crisp and perty that DT12. That's nothing more than my opinion though.

[BlobVanDam]

As far as controversial opinions go, I don't think Awake has very good production. I mean it's pretty raw, you could debate it might have fairly good mixing, but if good production means pretty much no production then Awake probably sounds great by todays standards as opposed to overproducing. it's just; I never thought it sounded that great (songwriting of course is a different story) and feels like a bit of an anomaly comparing it to I&W and FII beside it.

I don't think Awake is one of the better produced albums of the era (the first half of the '90s is my favourite for album production), but average production for 1994 is much better than the average production of 2014, sadly.
Awake is a bit too reverbed for my tastes, which takes the edge off the drums and guitars, but otherwise it's a good sounding album. I'd easily say it sounds better than the last several DT albums.

[robwebster]

If we're not part of their core constituency, then who is? We're the ones discussing them for years on end.
Also, I would never consider myself a true audiophile either given how I listen to bands from the 70s with very mediocre sound, but DT12 made me an "audiophile". I have put the album on randomly over the last few months while at work, alongside other DT albums, and it *always* stood out as causing major ear fatigue. By the time IT's orchestral section comes around it's like coming out of a really loud bar where you suddenly realize how oppressively loud the last hour was.

The people who buy the tickets,

If they were marketing their music, their tour, their VIP meet-and-greets, their box-sets, their . Don't make the mistake, either, of thinking that because we talk about them more that means we like them more - but you seem to constantly come at things from the angle that their core audience is basically people who think like you. "They're a legacy band now, people only want to hear the classics," "Who'd possibly sign off on that mix." "People" are quite transparently an avatar for yourself, and I regret that it really is myopia. Even if it were a metaphor for this message board - a. you've been challenged by about as many people as have agreed with you, and b. we're still a tiny and unrepresentative sample. There are so many more people with so many more tastes and opinions than are ever represented on this message board.

We are mice in a maze! Last.FM's just a sample, too, but it's a sample that's listened to A Nightmare to Remember, The Dark Eternal Night, Endless Sacrifice, Constant Motion, Octavarium, Build Me Up Break Me Down et al. more times this week than anything from Awake.



We are small and very skewed. Actually, we number about 4,000, fewer of which are particularly active - if we were at the heart of their business strategy, they'd be screwed! We're at the obsessive fringe, and obsession is not love, just as the collector of mint condition limited edition action figures sealed in their perfect packaging doesn't love his collection more than the kids who would unwrap them and play with them. Which doesn't mean, "Don't have opinions," absolutely do, keep them coming, your voice is important and appreciated, just try to keep in mind that you are not the average DT fan, you are not speaking for a silent majority, and the band are not aiming their music squarely at you. You're special! Feel it.

[rumborak]

It seems the people I know in real life, all of whom said DT12's sound is bad, must all be extensions of myself or of DTF. Who knew.
Also, I don't think you got my point of "we, who *used* to be their core market, no longer are". My point is that that's exactly the reason why DT would consciously mangle an album's sound to appeal to more casual metal fans.

Which doesn't mean, "Don't have opinions," absolutely do, keep them coming, your voice is important and appreciated

Duuuude, I can't fathom you wrote that. Thank you oh robwebster for appreciating my opinion

[Jaffa]

It seems the people I know in real life, all of whom said DT12's sound is bad, must all be extensions of myself or of DTF. Who knew.

What about the people on this forum who are saying that DT12's sound is okay?  How do you write them off?

[rumborak]

It seems the people I know in real life, all of whom said DT12's sound is bad, must all be extensions of myself or of DTF. Who knew.

What about the people on this forum who are saying that DT12's sound is okay?  How do you write them off?

Not that I'm writing them off, but for the most part I've seen comments like "yeah, it's not good sound, but I don't care". Which is I guess a sort of "tolerance" to the sound.

[King Postwhore]

I like DT12 but I do miss the dynamics in their sound.  To hear the instruments breath again but it's not the end of the world for me but I get where both sides are coming from.

[GasparXR]

DT12 doesn't have my favourite album production from DT (that would belong to FII and SDOIT) but I like it. The only real issue I have is spots where the guitar only comes out of one speaker for a phrase (ie. beginning of DAT riff in Illumination Theory) and it sounds really clipped, but then once it goes stereo it's fine. Other than that, I can deal with the compression. As for the mix, it's a pretty good mix. It's very balanced across the album. The vocals sound the more like JLB's live voice than any other album I've heard him on. The guitar is creamy chocolate cake, as we know. The keyboards aren't quite as prominent as ADTOE, but prominent enough. There are maybe a couple spots where they could have been brought forward more, like the fast second verse of The Looking Glass. As for drums, the snare sounded a little silly to me at first, but I quickly got used to it and it doesn't really bother me. The other drums sound great, and have lots of volume like all of the MP albums.

Speaking of the snare, there is a particular moment where it sounds like the 80s snare from Images and Words. In Surrender to Reason, after the opening part (which is also the outro), right before going into the really Rush-inspired riff, the snare pound sounds like it has reverb on it and it gave me that impression. Anyone else feel that way?

[robwebster]

Which doesn't mean, "Don't have opinions," absolutely do, keep them coming, your voice is important and appreciated

Duuuude, I can't fathom you wrote that. Thank you oh robwebster for appreciating my opinion

I'm trying to keep it a discussion, rather than turn it into an argument, and pinpoint the fact that I'm not side-eyeing your opinions so much as your attempts to turn them into facts. That was a bit patronising on my part, but you are making it quite difficult!

Either way, yes, I'm sure your twenty-or-so mates are a fair sample who have very little in common with you. They're representative, diverse and statistically useful - the Burger King Kids Club Gang of DT fans, humanity in microcosm. Seriously?! "My mates all agree with me" is a properly flimsy argument, it's about as scientific as "I heard it in a pub." Of course they're likely to agree with you, they're your mates. No, they won't agree with you on everything, but they're people you get along with, they share common interests, can you not see how they might be among the least useful brands of anecdotal evidence? It's like turning up to a sword-fight with a leek and a flannel and expecting everyone to go, "Shit, let's not mess with this guy, he's got vegetables!"

Cos it's not an isolated incident, it's this constant hum - you turn up, every few days, super proud of this new scrap of evidence that will somehow prove, once and for all, that the scales have lifted, that you're saying what everyone else is secretly thinking - that the fans mostly think like you, DT are aware they all think like you, so they're quietly wrapping their career up.... but the evidence is, let's face it, never particularly convincing. Since you decided you were over the band, you've just started suffixing every Dream Theater fact with, "Therefore - DOOM!" They've released a studio album collection - their third or fourth, but this one means they're doomed. They're playing anniversary sets, this is because they're now a legacy band and know nobody's interested in the new album. (Which they are airing 70% of, every night, plus a further twenty minutes of the album before, vs. nothing at all from Images & Words, but still - DOOM!)

It's not complete nonsense, they are absolutely steadying the pace a bit - as most bands quite understandably do when they're pushing 50 - but you do seem to be warping facts to try and make them fit the conclusion in your head, then getting really spiky and defensive when someone challenges you - your reaction to "The production hasn't really changed much since 1999" was "WHOA THERE, FANBOY!" Yes, you're saying weird things, I'm calling you on them! Fine to think the best days of the band are behind them, fine to enjoy the old stuff and see no merit in the new stuff - hey, shame about the new stuff, but that's still a decade or two of badass music! What I'm objecting to, and I wanted to be quite clear about this, is this baffling crusade to find evidence that will somehow verify your opinion... just, chill out, man! Enjoy having the opinion! It doesn't need validating, and even if it did, you're not going to substantiate it by Inspector Clouseauing up a bunch of fairly suspect clues - least of all, "All my friends agree with me, but I suppose that must just be a coincidence, hmm?!"

[Lucien]

[GasparXR]

Wait... robwebster has gonnorhea?

[Sir Walrus Cauliflower]

[MoraWintersoul]

Why would they wanna try and consciously mangle their sound to appeal to an audience that is apparently so audio-ignorant that they probably wouldn't notice much of a difference with more "conscious" mastering? I get it, it's a good narrative, but it's just that DT's albums have always sounded exactly like the year they were published in. Non-compressed to death stuff is pretty rare nowadays, you guys.

Yeah, some of the other compressed stuff I listen to sounds better than DT (everything Jens Bogren does sounds awesome, but it's not the most dynamic), but that's because I'm not as detail oriented when I'm not trying to pay attention to every possible aspect of the playing like I am with a band I like to analyze to death. And because other types of music lend themselves better to that sorta thing than prog.

I'll say it again: Asking why every album can't come with an above average production job is like asking why every album can't come with above average songwriting. The word average loses its meaning. Sometimes albums you love will not go against the grain, simply because sometimes people who make them don't want them to go against the grain, and that's it, both production-wise and song-wise.

edited again: don't get me wrong, I too wanted a better and clearer sound, especially after ADTOE's limpy drums. Maybe I'm just not bothered by this too much because the last time I listened to DT12 was like last year or something. But it's just that, DT's albums have always sounded average (with a few exceptions), or at least were faulty in a way that was common in the era. Some people can tolerate IAW's 80's finish, some people can tolerate the boom pow metal attack of the RR era. But there is almost always something to tolerate. And it doesn't have much to do with how much money they have, if they won't throw it at an uncommon producer we all like. They'll throw it at someone they like, and that someone is less likely to go against the grain, because of that pesky probability thing.

[Sir Walrus Cauliflower]

I fail to see how "consciously mangling their sound" would appeal to people anyway. I don't often find people saying they don't listen to a band because their albums sound too clear, or aren't loud enough.

[425]

I am a big fan of the songs themselves, and I don't even hate the drum sound the way some people do, but it does seem like white noise. It's just loud and muddy (or sounds like that to me). I'm sure the HDTracks version clears some of that up, but I already bought the CD. I don't think I should spend another $20 to make it sound like it could have in the first place. It's the only album I listen to (I don't listen to WDADU) that actively annoys me with sound quality. Every other album to me sounds open and big, like it's exploring. DT12 sounds rather like it was recorded in a cardboard box.

The HDTracks improves the loud master situation but not the mediocre mix situation. I would only advise getting it if you get fatigue from listening to the CD version. If you do, then the HDTracks will probably improvise the situation some. If you think it sounds crummy, but your problem is not that listening to it actually gives you a headache or wears out your ears, then the HDTracks won't be worth it because you will still think it sounds crummy on the HDTracks.