Your Controversial Opinions on DT

[Invisible]

I'm sorry, but the changes the label made to FII were good ones. You or Me is beyond boring, Hell's Kitchen in the middle of Burning my Soul would have been a travesty, and although the original TAMP isn't bad, I really like the album version way better.

I agree with all of this. Also, getting rid of the third verse in Anna Lee and replacing it with the key change was a vast improvement.

And my controversial opinion: I feel that Dream Theater has purposefully simplified their lyrics (simpler word choice, less esoteric subject matter, writing more directly with less allegory and metaphor) to attract a wider international fan base of people whose first language isn't English.

My first language isn't English and I can tell you that it's a stupid idea. If you don't understand the language or have a very low level/limited knowledge of it, you just don't listen to english music for the lyrics, you listen for the melodies and the music and just hum along.(or come up with alternative lyrics in your own language, with hilarious results ) And I don't think the lyrics have been simplified, maybe around the SC/BCSL era but right now, JP is as he always been.

As for FII, for me it's not the rarity factor, I just happen to love Cover My Eyes, Speak To Me and especially The Way It Used To Be, all of them are in my Top 50. Raise The Knife is a good song, but I'm not sure it fits in this particular album and needs triming and reworking, don't care for Where Are You Now. Cover My Eyes wipes the floor off You Not Me or You Or Me every day of the week, a lot more catchy and way better lyrics. My playlist of FII has all of those(except WAYN and RTK) swapped for You Not Me, Burning My Soul, Anna Lee and Take Away My Pain, all songs I like but don't think are great.

And Rob, New Millenium is THE opener for FII, don't mess with that one!! And Muse opened their DVD concert for BH&R with Knights of Cydonia and closed with Take a Bow. Trial of Tears last section is too much if a closer to be anything else, even if it has the potential of being both, unless they split it up like they did with ITPOE, but that wouldn't work at all.

[TheGreatPretender]

I was listening to Space-Dye Vest today, and I have to say, upon really thinking about the lyrics, some of them, in my controversial opinion, are more corny than anything DT has ever written. I mean, "Love is an act of blood and I'm bleeding. A pool in the shape of a heart." 
I don't know why it hit me today of all days, but yeah, just because it's more poetic than The Count of Tuscany, does not make it any less cheesy.

[Shadow Ninja 2.0]

That's a great line.

[TheGreatPretender]

Well, it does have plenty of cheese AND whine! 

[Nearmyth]

Space-Dye Vest in general is a very cheesy song imo but I think some of the lyrics are actually quite poetic. I love the lyrics: 

"Falling through pages of Martens on angels
Feeling my heart pull west...
Beauty projection in the reflection
Always the worst way to start."

I always thought Moore's lyrics always flowed nicely, but I can mostly agree with that

[rumborak]

Yeah, not all of Kevin's lyrics are great.

[TheGreatPretender]

Space-Dye Vest in general is a very cheesy song imo but I think some of the lyrics are actually quite poetic. I love the lyrics: 

"Falling through pages of Martens on angels
Feeling my heart pull west...
Beauty projection in the reflection
Always the worst way to start."

I always thought Moore's lyrics always flowed nicely, but I can mostly agree with that

Those verses are pretty great. I'm not saying all the lyrics in the song are cheesy, but those that are, are among DT's most cheesy. I mean, even the whole, "I'll never be open again" part. There's a reason why that caption gets used for every single remotely emo looking picture of DT members. 

[TAC]

I've always loved the line:
"There's nowhere to set my aim,
So I'm everywhere"

[Tom Bombadil]

Outside of the song SDV's lyrics might be cheesy, but they fit the music so well that it doesn't seem cheesy at all to me when I listen to it.

[Onno]

I agree about SDV's lyrics being cheesy. I'd never looked at them that way. However, in the context of the song it doesn't sound cheesy at all.

[MoraWintersoul]

re: SDV

God damn you everyone. Literally any way of expressing emotion in writing is or can be cheesy, and will never be "the real thing", because language isn't a perfect channel of your mental representation.

I mean, I am kind of overreacting not because it's SDV, but because I'm really, REALLY over cheesy as a description word.

[TheGreatPretender]

I agree. CORNY is the word.

[MoraWintersoul]

that one's even worse

[TheGreatPretender]

that one's even worse

And yet, I rarely see people refer to DT lyrics as corny, whereas cheesy's been done to death. I guess because they often refer to the music rather than the actual lyrics. But yeah, some of SDV's lyrics are very corny.

[GasparXR]

If SDV's lyrics are cheesy, then at least it's Jalepeno Cheddar, which is damn good. So basically I don't find them cheesy and I like them.

[TheGreatPretender]

You wrote sad poetry in high school, didn't you? 

[GasparXR]

You wrote sad poetry in high school, didn't you? 

Not at all. Unless you define lyrics as poetry and sad as mundanely horrible.

[?]

A lot of DT songs have cheesy lyrics, but SDV isn't the first one that comes to mind.

[Nearmyth]

Cheesy, corny, it's all got the same idea I think.

 

A lot of DT songs have cheesy lyrics, but SDV isn't the first one that comes to mind.

Definitely not, SDV just happens to be the topic of conversation.

[ThatOneGuy2112]

Kevin's lyrics for SDV are more poetic than cheesy/corny. I'm not sure I subscribe to the idea that writing anything remotely related to heartbreak and love would be considered that. Especially not in context with the haunting, depressingness that the music presents.

[Rodni Demental]

I would have thought the music aids in turning the lyrics from a slice of cheese into an extra grilled cheese sandwich. It's all about emersion or perhaps connecting with the vibe the writer intended. Doesn't matter how well the song expresses it's contents in an artistic 'haunting' way that might be quite immersive to a listener, it's still going to be seen as cheesy by other people, especially because it's about heartbreak. I mean surely that's the most cliché subject you can write music about but everyone tends to be able to relate to these ideas on some level. So it's all perspective and if you're not wearing your cheese specs., you might not notice how much Space Dye Vest is drowning in all of the cheese. Still, it's a unique song that comes along once in a career so who cares about the overcheese. And at least they don't have 50 songs like this, sometimes a bit of cheese is just fine so long as you don't over do it...

[TheGreatPretender]

You wrote sad poetry in high school, didn't you? 

Not at all. Unless you define lyrics as poetry and sad as mundanely horrible.

Well, lyrics are a form of poetry, in a way, aren't they... So you were half way there. And besides, if you take all the teenagers who write poetry, the vast majority of it is one kind of horrible or another, so there ya go!

I would have thought the music aids in turning the lyrics from a slice of cheese into an extra grilled cheese sandwich. It's all about emersion or perhaps connecting with the vibe the writer intended.

Well, can't the same be said about every single cheesy song/lyric in the world? I mean, wouldn't it be the same deal with TCOT or whatever else most DT fans might consider cheesy?

Kevin's lyrics for SDV are more poetic than cheesy/corny. I'm not sure I subscribe to the idea that writing anything remotely related to heartbreak and love would be considered that.

First of all, are you joking? 90% of songs that can be considered cheesy out there are precisely about love and heartbreak. That's part of what makes them so cheesy? When I said that SDV was cheesy, I meant in the grand scheme of DT's lyrics. Compared to other artists cheesy love and heartbreak songs, SDV is great.

Second, keep in mind what SDV is really about. It's not about true love. It's about the infatuation with a model from a catalog. Whoever this girl is, whatever she's like, it can't possibly live up to the picture that he no doubt painted in his head, just from her image alone. And that, IMO, is a fantastic subject matter for a song, and therein lies the problem. The lethargic tone of the song doesn't fit the subject matter at all. I mean, the idea of falling in love with a girl from a catalog, beautiful as it is, is completely absurd, and that's a big part of what makes it so interesting. But the tone of the song, and the angst ridden lyrics really don't capture that absurdity. It's as if the song is about true love, and a broken relationship with a real person. I don't know, the more I hear it, the more the subject matter, lyrics and melodic themes clash for me.

[Nearmyth]

Second, keep in mind what SDV is really about. It's not about true love. It's about the infatuation with a model from a catalog. Whoever this girl is, whatever she's like, it can't possibly live up to the picture that he no doubt painted in his head, just from her image alone. And that, IMO, is a fantastic subject matter for a song, and therein lies the problem. The lethargic tone of the song doesn't fit the subject matter at all. I mean, the idea of falling in love with a girl from a catalog, beautiful as it is, is completely absurd, and that's a big part of what makes it so interesting. But the tone of the song, and the angst ridden lyrics really don't capture that absurdity. It's as if the song is about true love, and a broken relationship with a real person. I don't know, the more I hear it, the more the subject matter, lyrics and melodic themes clash for me.

THIS is why I think Space-Dye Vest and its theme/tone is grossly overrated

[ThatOneGuy2112]

ITT:

[GasparXR]

Looks like good cheese, so it's accurate.

[Ravenfoul]

re: SDV

God damn you everyone. Literally any way of expressing emotion in writing is or can be cheesy, and will never be "the real thing", because language isn't a perfect channel of your mental representation.

I mean, I am kind of overreacting not because it's SDV, but because I'm really, REALLY over cheesy as a description word.

Calling stuff 'cheesy' is so cliche now.

[TheGreatPretender]

Looks like good cheese, so it's accurate.

There is no bad cheese in Dream Theater, if you look at it that way.

[Rodni Demental]

lol Eventually it'll be a cliché to call something a cliché, I mean I totally agree, words are completely lacking, insufficient, imperfect and unworthy at representing or defining what we think and feel, but that's why if we add as many words as possible into the language we just might get closer at pinpointing the specifics of thought and emotion. But as inadequate as cheesy might be, to describe certain aspects of music, it does represent an idea or a perspective of interpretation for some individuals.

[TheGreatPretender]

lol Eventually it'll be a cliché to call something a cliché, I mean I totally agree, words are completely lacking, insufficient, imperfect and unworthy at representing or defining what we think and feel, but that's why if we add as many words as possible into the language we just might get closer at pinpointing the specifics of thought and emotion. But as inadequate as cheesy might be, to describe certain aspects of music, it does represent an idea or a perspective of interpretation for some individuals.

Of course, if we start adding too many words, and try to bring back the parts of the English language that aren't widely used anymore, then instead of 'cheesy' and 'cliché', people will be calling it pretentious. 

[puppyonacid]

Using the word pretentious is such a cliché!

[TheGreatPretender]

Using the word pretentious is such a cliché!

It's very cheesy to call using the word pretentious cliché.

[puppyonacid]

Using the word pretentious is such a cliché!

It's very cheesy to call using the word pretentious cliché.

I'd say that comment is very ostentatious

[MoraWintersoul]

Second, keep in mind what SDV is really about. It's not about true love. [...] But the tone of the song, and the angst ridden lyrics really don't capture that absurdity. It's as if the song is about true love, and a broken relationship with a real person. I don't know, the more I hear it, the more the subject matter, lyrics and melodic themes clash for me.

But that's... kind of what it is about. It's about breaking up with someone you love, and then filling the blank in any way you know. It's not like I'm making this up, it was quoted in the DT Norway FAQ verbatim from Kevin.

All I'm saying is, stuff like "there's nowhere to set my aim so I'm everywhere" and all of the other emotional triggers for band lyrics that are quoted as cheesy are a part of the human experience. Saying stuff like that is cheesy is invalidating a common part of being a person and  the ways to express it. I know I'm not explaining myself very well, but what can you do

[Rodni Demental]

All I'm saying is, stuff like "there's nowhere to set my aim so I'm everywhere" and all of the other emotional triggers for band lyrics that are quoted as cheesy are a part of the human experience. Saying stuff like that is cheesy is invalidating a common part of being a person and  the ways to express it. I know I'm not explaining myself very well, but what can you do

I think I follow you, and yeah the words are no good..  But in the same regard, calling it cheesy is just a perspective of that experience, not necessarily a disregard or dismissal of what emotions are triggered from these generalised or maybe cliché terms. This perspective might even evoke different types of emotions that are relevant to their experience.

[425]

I'm completely in agreement with MoraWintersoul here. I have a hard time calling any genuine expression of justified human emotion "cheesy," and Space Dye Vest is written better than the vast majority of emotional songs anyway. I'm sorry, but I can't get along with throwing any sad lyrics into the "emo" bin and labeling it cheesy.

Generally I try to avoid labeling lyrics as "cheesy," because I think there are more descriptive terms for bad lyrics, but if ever I do, it's not going to be an emotional breakup song, it will be something about dragons and swords or whatever. I think when we reach the point when we're labeling a line such as "I'll never be open again," which is emotionally powerful and literarily efficient, descriptive and vivid, as "cheesy," because... I don't really even know why? is a point where we've gone too far in applying that label.

In my book, SDV has among of the best lyrics of any DT song and would be up there with all songs in general. I'd point especially to "I'll never be open again" and "There's nowhere to set my aim, so I'm everywhere/Never come near me again, do you really think I need?" as examples of truly great lines.