Your Controversial Opinions on DT

[Nel]

(For the record, I love Rob and am just poking some fun towards him.) 

I really do still dislike DT12 though. I've tried at least once a month since it came out, and it just doesn't do anything for me.

[Rodni Demental]

Scratch track =/= Demonstration track =/= Demo? Same difference really isn't it?

Err, hell no. A demo is something you go to record companies with to get their buy-in, whereas a scratch track is simply a poorly executed version of the final track.

Err.. But a demonstration track doesn't mean it always has to be for the record company in the traditional sense. It can simply be a demonstration for the band members themselves to get an idea of what a tracked version of their composition/ideas will sound like; ala scratch track. I mean.. They actually are the same thing most of the time because they have the same application most of the time, with the only differentiation being the semantics of what you want to call it for whichever specific purpose. But it's one of those things like; all scratch tracks are demos, that's the point of them, a demonstration, but not all demos are intended to be used as scratch tracks. But whatevs. 

[BlobVanDam]

Scratch track =/= Demonstration track =/= Demo? Same difference really isn't it?

Err, hell no. A demo is something you go to record companies with to get their buy-in, whereas a scratch track is simply a poorly executed version of the final track.

@hef: I stand corrected about the writing in the studio part. But I still think the ToT demos are quite different from the earlier ones, if only because there was no time between recording of the demos and the actual recording of the album. The changes to the actual album version are minute, whereas "You or Me" for example are different songs almost.

YNM is a special case though, given how unique the process of FII was for the band, with the label meddling. That was not a case of DT refining the songs between demo and studio, it was a case of an outside producer fucking up a song further. Not a great example of their old writing process anyway.

Not that I'm disagreeing with your core point, just that's a terrible example.

[Zook]

I'm sorry, but the changes the label made to FII were good ones. You or Me is beyond boring, Hell's Kitchen in the middle of Burning my Soul would have been a travesty, and although the original TAMP isn't bad, I really like the album version way better.

[BlobVanDam]

There isn't a single change on FII that I don't think was for the better, but YNM is the crappiest example of it.

[Daso]

I agree with both points but really need to mention Raise the Knife is an amazing song. I'm glad we got the Score version.

Also, I would've enjoyed listening to a full instrumental version of New Millennium. It's such a groovy song with Myung on the Chapman Stick. Very underrated if you ask me.

[tweeg]

I'm sorry, but the changes the label made to FII were good ones. You or Me is beyond boring, Hell's Kitchen in the middle of Burning my Soul would have been a travesty, and although the original TAMP isn't bad, I really like the album version way better.

I agree with all of this. Also, getting rid of the third verse in Anna Lee and replacing it with the key change was a vast improvement.

And my controversial opinion: I feel that Dream Theater has purposefully simplified their lyrics (simpler word choice, less esoteric subject matter, writing more directly with less allegory and metaphor) to attract a wider international fan base of people whose first language isn't English.

[nikatapi]

And my controversial opinion: I feel that Dream Theater has purposefully simplified their lyrics (simpler word choice, less esoteric subject matter, writing more directly with less allegory and metaphor) to attract a wider international fan base of people whose first language isn't English.

Or maybe they just put less effort in crafting the lyrics...

[aprilethereal]

I'm sorry, but the changes the label made to FII were good ones. You or Me is beyond boring, Hell's Kitchen in the middle of Burning my Soul would have been a travesty, and although the original TAMP isn't bad, I really like the album version way better.

I agree with both points but really need to mention Raise the Knife is an amazing song. I'm glad we got the Score version.

Also, I would've enjoyed listening to a full instrumental version of New Millennium. It's such a groovy song with Myung on the Chapman Stick. Very underrated if you ask me.

Agreed with both of you

[robwebster]

Rob, you forgot "unmemorable" and "bland". 

There's a reason for that.

[Rodni Demental]

And my controversial opinion: I feel that Dream Theater has purposefully simplified their lyrics (simpler word choice, less esoteric subject matter, writing more directly with less allegory and metaphor) to attract a wider international fan base of people whose first language isn't English.

Or maybe they just put less effort in crafting the lyrics...

Some might argue (like me ) that writing more generalised lyrics that lots of people can connect with or interpret in their own way, might often be more difficult than writing about a specific subject that the listener may or may not even be interested in or agree with, they don't get to put their own personal spin on it as a listener. Obviously it's up to the writer how they want it to be perceived, but I prefer to give credit where it's due because it can go either way. I think if anything JP is putting as much effort into his lyrics as he ever has, considering the much larger audience they have compared to 25 years ago when you'd be mostly writing for yourself because you wouldn't necessarily have an intended audience.

[Implode]

There isn't a single change on FII that I don't think was for the better, but YNM is the crappiest example of it.

One example of a good change: Taking Hell's Kitchen out of Burning My Soul.

[BlobVanDam]

There isn't a single change on FII that I don't think was for the better, but YNM is the crappiest example of it.

One example of a good change: Taking Hell's Kitchen out of Burning My Soul.

Even though I really like BMS too, Hell's Kitchen didn't fit in the middle, and works so much more epically on its own with that final buildup.
Most of the rest of the changes were relatively smaller, but all helped to tighten up the arrangements and make them more focused. Given many of the seemingly tiny criticisms people focus on in later DT songs, those little changes can make a difference.

[Implode]

Wait. You think the changes were good?

Oh. I read your post wrong. We are in complete agreement.

[BlobVanDam]

Oh, I thought your post was just supporting that the changes were for the better. It's all good.
FII is one of my favourite DT albums, and there is very little I would change about it, so I've always been a strong supporter of the changes that were made to the album, even if it's not how DT envisioned it.

[KevShmev]

I'm sorry, but the changes the label made to FII were good ones. You or Me is beyond boring, Hell's Kitchen in the middle of Burning my Soul would have been a travesty, and although the original TAMP isn't bad, I really like the album version way better.

Absolutely.

To me, a demo is like a rough draft, and sometimes rough drafts are good enough to only need a slight tweak or two (see: Raise the Knife pretty much played exactly like the demo at the Score show), but more often than not, the final draft is far better than the rough draft/demo.

[hefdaddy42]

I agree that most of the changes done on FII were 100% correct.

[NotePad]

My opinion: DT should do an album that's entirely Power Metal. Now THAT would be progressive!

Or at least one song that's straight up power metal. Musically, but without fantasy lyrics cuz i don't like that.

Wanting power metal without fantasy lyrics is like wanting a pub that doesn't sell alcohol. What's the point?

Helloweem. Edguy.

[tiagodon]

Sometimes I wonder why DT never evolved to something radically different musically.
This is a “virus” that almost every band gets! Most of them end up changing their styles radically as the years go by. You name it: Guns N Roses, Metallica, Avenged Sevenfold, Paradise Lost, Megadeth etc, which is pretty normal. We get old, life changes, our music tastes change.

Well, we can listen to “different” DTs over the years (I&W x FII x 6DOIT x DT12), but no really radical or expressive change.
Maybe this change is what Portnoy wanted. I don´t know. But I really think they should aim to something radically different in style in order to survive as a band.

[Scorpion]

My opinion: DT should do an album that's entirely Power Metal. Now THAT would be progressive!

Or at least one song that's straight up power metal. Musically, but without fantasy lyrics cuz i don't like that.

Wanting power metal without fantasy lyrics is like wanting a pub that doesn't sell alcohol. What's the point?

Helloweem. Edguy.

I raise you Sonata Arctica.

[?]

Sometimes I wonder why DT never evolved to something radically different musically.

Most of the bands that alter their style radically over the years have either one main songwriter or a constantly changing line-up. My theory is that the bands that have just one person writing most or all of the music change, because the more songs you write, the easier it is to get tired of formulas and want to do something different. On the other hand, there are bands that write collaboratively and go through changes as new members bring in different influences. A good example of this is Amorphis: they used to have a different line-up on each album (not on purpose; members were just coming and going), but since they found their current singer in 2005 their music has stabilized.

DT have always written more or less as a group, so there probably hasn't been a need for radical changes. However, they didn't really have a stable line-up until Jordan joined, and as a result the albums were always a bit different. The line-up with Jordan and MP lasted 11 years, so it's natural that the music got more formulaic towards the end, but MP's departure was a needed shakeup. It's safe to assume that the current line-up will remain for many years, so at this point I think the biggest challenge for DT is to prevent their music from getting stale as years go by. I'd love to see them go outside their comfort zone and try some different approaches, but we'll see what happens.

Wanting power metal without fantasy lyrics is like wanting a pub that doesn't sell alcohol. What's the point?

Helloweem. Edguy.

I raise you Sonata Arctica.

[rumborak]

I think DT in the early days had to prove more. Yes, the stabilization of their sound coincided with JR's tenure, but I think after the success of SFAM and SDOIT, DT felt they found the "winning formula" of writing their albums, and thus felt relatively secure and locked themselves into that "tour+studio" cycle. And I kinda have the impression that they dropped back into it now.

But yeah, MP's "Inspiration Corner" was probably to some degree an attempt to steer DT to new directions. I think the problem may have been that this change wasn't a natural one (e.g. JP listens to more jazz and folds some ideas into songs), but an outside-imposed one, with the result that those songs just sounded like the band they were supposed to be "inspired" from. And even to this days that effect persists, with seemingly more and more Rush-influenced songs appearing.

[BlobVanDam]

I think another reason their sound is more stable these days is because they didn't have as much control in the earlier years, and were still finding their sound.
Pre-SFAM, they had outside influence from producers and record labels. Not that I'm saying the musical direction of those albums was dictated by the label or anything, but on FII they had to play the game to an extent to get that album out.

But ever since SFAM, they've had full control to write whatever they wish, and with JR have struck upon a strong signature sound. They've still had plenty of variety in those years, but they're more comfortable and consistent in their approach to writing music.

[NotePad]

My opinion: DT should do an album that's entirely Power Metal. Now THAT would be progressive!

Or at least one song that's straight up power metal. Musically, but without fantasy lyrics cuz i don't like that.

Wanting power metal without fantasy lyrics is like wanting a pub that doesn't sell alcohol. What's the point?

Helloweem. Edguy.

I raise you Sonata Arctica.

I find there is a lot of fantasy imagery in Sonata Artica's lyrics. Perhaps I'm wrong about that though.....

[?]

I find there is a lot of fantasy imagery in Sonata Artica's lyrics. Perhaps I'm wrong about that though.....

Tony Kakko has always disliked lyrics about dragons and swords, so you won't find them on SA's albums

[robwebster]

Oh, I thought your post was just supporting that the changes were for the better. It's all good.
FII is one of my favourite DT albums, and there is very little I would change about it, so I've always been a strong supporter of the changes that were made to the album, even if it's not how DT envisioned it.

I think my one issue with Falling into Infinity is the tracklist - there are a lot of diverse and interesting songs that came out of those sessions, but the ones that made it to the disc are some of the more inconsequential ones. Plus, there's this whole block towards the bottom of the album, where you've got Hell's Kitchen, Lines in the Sand, Take Away My Pain, Just Let Me Breathe, Anna Lee and Trial of Tears all back to back. The two big songs in there have moments of bite, and Just Let Me Breathe breaks it up, but the album isn't great for pace - there's a lot of riffs at the start and a lot of laid-back music at the tail end.

Can't think how I'd rearrange it. I'm trying to picture Trial of Tears as an opener... and failing, somewhat, but it's in there. I'll fiddle about in Audition.

[tiagodon]

.

[jsem]

Trial of Tears couldn't be anything other than a closer IMO.

[BlobVanDam]

Oh, I thought your post was just supporting that the changes were for the better. It's all good.
FII is one of my favourite DT albums, and there is very little I would change about it, so I've always been a strong supporter of the changes that were made to the album, even if it's not how DT envisioned it.

I think my one issue with Falling into Infinity is the tracklist - there are a lot of diverse and interesting songs that came out of those sessions, but the ones that made it to the disc are some of the more inconsequential ones. Plus, there's this whole block towards the bottom of the album, where you've got Hell's Kitchen, Lines in the Sand, Take Away My Pain, Just Let Me Breathe, Anna Lee and Trial of Tears all back to back. The two big songs in there have moments of bite, and Just Let Me Breathe breaks it up, but the album isn't great for pace - there's a lot of riffs at the start and a lot of laid-back music at the tail end.

Can't think how I'd rearrange it. I'm trying to picture Trial of Tears as an opener... and failing, somewhat, but it's in there. I'll fiddle about in Audition.

Honestly, I think the best songs made it to the disc, YNM aside, which is the only one I skip. Not that the discarded tracks are terrible, but I think the obscurity of them is most of the appeal. They're largely not as good as what's on the final album, except for RTK, which I still only think is fairly average, and imo wouldn't have a place on the album regardless.
Never had a problem with the flow either! Aside from the minor niggle of YNM at the start, I find it to be one of DT's easiest albums to listen to beginning to end, and the order just works for me. I think your generalization is a bit too loose to agree with, but I think it gives the album a natural progression anyway. ToT is definitely a closer. I can't even imagine it as an opener. Silly man!

[Scorpion]

The only change on FII i'd consider making is to swap YNM for Speak to Me, though that doesn't really work as the second song of the album, so some re-arranging of the tracklist would be necessary - though I'm not sure how. Trial of Tears can't be anything else than a closer, that's for sure.

[robwebster]

You say that, but it's slap bang in the middle of the current set! A live set's not exactly the same as an album order, but DT12 almost went live with Illumination Theory as track two, which I don't think would have worked, but I think it's interesting how far it got. Black Holes and Revelations was originally scheduled with Knights of Cydonia first and Take A Bow last - which seems completely ludicrous to me, but it was absolutely the plan, and like Knights of Cydonia, I wonder if Trial of Tears might only sound innately final because we've heard it at the end of an album for seventeen years. Like I said, I'm still not quite picturing it, but I like the idea of the album slowly warming up, rather than gradually shedding its grit, and I think Trial of Tears would work well at the beginning of that particular album. Something like...

1. Trial of Tears
2. Take Away My Pain
3. Cover My Eyes
4. Peruvian Skies
5. Raise the Knife

6. Just Let Me Breathe
7. Hollow Years
8. Hell's Kitchen
9. Lines in the Sand

Sort of feels a bit more balanced. Almost mirrors, one side to another. Clear Side A and Side B, too - something I seem to remember Mike Portnoy regretted not quite achieving. Ahhh, I don't know. I quite like messing with structure. Context can change a lot. Half the appeal of Overture 1928 is the promise of adventure to come. I think, if FII is sometimes hard work, that's more to do with the order the music happens in than the songs themselves. The Dream Theater canon could always use a couple more songs like Anna Lee, just... not necessarily all at the same time.

It's just something to fiddle about with.

[BlobVanDam]

You just killed one of my favourite DT albums, rob.

(well maybe not as far as killed, but severely wounded at the very least)

[hefdaddy42]

Not that the discarded tracks are terrible, but I think the obscurity of them is most of the appeal.

I disagree entirely.  That may have been true of the fanbase as it existed in 1998 or so, but that fanbase has come a long way, and there is nothing obscure about those songs now.  With today's technology, they are readily available.  A lot of people just like those songs better than some that made the album, that's all.  Has nothing to do with obscurity or rarity.

[BlobVanDam]

Not that the discarded tracks are terrible, but I think the obscurity of them is most of the appeal.

I disagree entirely.  That may have been true of the fanbase as it existed in 1998 or so, but that fanbase has come a long way, and there is nothing obscure about those songs now.  With today's technology, they are readily available.  A lot of people just like those songs better than some that made the album, that's all.  Has nothing to do with obscurity or rarity.

I still think they're all level with YNM for empty poppiness, so I have no idea what people see in them. They were right to ditch them. They would have added nothing to the album.
And they're still relatively very obscure songs. The average fan (ie not a DTF diehard) wouldn't care to realize these songs exist, or to seek them out. FII isn't highly enough regarded by most people to bother to begin with.

[GentlemanofDread]

Cover My Eyes or Speak To Me are probably the only two FII Demo songs I really really like, but I don't want to ruin one of my favourite DT albums by trying to slide them in.