Author Topic: Your Controversial Opinions on DT  (Read 979840 times)

0 Members and 3 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline BlobVanDam

  • Future Boy
  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 38940
  • Gender: Male
  • Transform and rock out!
Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #4585 on: April 30, 2014, 10:08:19 PM »
Interesting graph. Anyone want to extrapolate those peaks and predict the point where DT will apparently be playing bingo halls? In a couple of years you'll either be hailed as a prog Nostrodamus, or seen as useless as the real Nostrodamus! :P
Only King could mis-spell a LETTER.
Yep. I think the only party in the MP/DT situation that hasn't moved on is DTF.

Offline GPedrosa

  • Posts: 29
  • Gender: Male
Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #4586 on: May 01, 2014, 01:03:26 AM »
You Not Me isn't bad.
FII is Dream Theater's 4th best album.
The Answer Lies Within and I Walk Beside You are the best songs on Octavarium.
When Dream and Day Unite is a good album.
Voices is my second least favorite song on Awake.
Lie is awesome.
Pull Me Under is actually underrated among DT fans.
SDOIT is overrated.
The sound clips in Home get on my nerves.
Who the fuck says Lie ISN'T awesome?

Offline robwebster

  • Posts: 5021
Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #4587 on: May 01, 2014, 01:04:00 AM »
Keep in mind that's a graph of message board usage, not a graph of being a fan. The Google one, meanwhile, shows a drop between Octavarium and Systematic Chaos, which we know for a fact does not represent the greater fanbase - so what are they really measuring?

It's more likely that message boards are dying. People are going to Twitter, Facebook, Tumblr - when you want to have a discussion about Dream Theater, you don't type "dream theater" into Google and see if there's any cool communities, you just launch your favourite app and start talking about Dream Theater - myself included! The minute DT12 came out, I fucked off for five months, my initial reactions are all on Twitter, and Facebook chat. We're living in an age where the discussion comes to us. There's still a place for message boards, but they're ever more niche.

There's an interesting conversation to be had, but it's one about how we curate online narratives. Now, if you'll excuse me, I'm off to plot a graph of mIRC usage statistics that prove Vice City was the last great Grand Theft Auto game.

Offline BlobVanDam

  • Future Boy
  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 38940
  • Gender: Male
  • Transform and rock out!
Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #4588 on: May 01, 2014, 01:07:15 AM »
You Not Me isn't bad.
FII is Dream Theater's 4th best album.
The Answer Lies Within and I Walk Beside You are the best songs on Octavarium.
When Dream and Day Unite is a good album.
Voices is my second least favorite song on Awake.
Lie is awesome.
Pull Me Under is actually underrated among DT fans.
SDOIT is overrated.
The sound clips in Home get on my nerves.
Who the fuck says Lie ISN'T awesome?

Me. It's awful. Terrible lyrics, phoned in vocals, generic riffing etc.
Only King could mis-spell a LETTER.
Yep. I think the only party in the MP/DT situation that hasn't moved on is DTF.

Offline GPedrosa

  • Posts: 29
  • Gender: Male
Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #4589 on: May 01, 2014, 01:11:49 AM »
You Not Me isn't bad.
FII is Dream Theater's 4th best album.
The Answer Lies Within and I Walk Beside You are the best songs on Octavarium.
When Dream and Day Unite is a good album.
Voices is my second least favorite song on Awake.
Lie is awesome.
Pull Me Under is actually underrated among DT fans.
SDOIT is overrated.
The sound clips in Home get on my nerves.
Who the fuck says Lie ISN'T awesome?

Me. It's awful. Terrible lyrics, phoned in vocals, generic riffing etc.

 :omg: :omg: :omg: :omg: *goes to bed crying*

Offline Rodni Demental

  • Posts: 1113
  • Gender: Male
Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #4590 on: May 01, 2014, 01:13:37 AM »
[/completelynontopicrelated]

I'm off to plot a graph of mIRC usage statistics that prove Vice City was the last great Grand Theft Auto game.

It was definitely more fun than IV and V depite those being video game blockbuster juggernauts that were technically more advanced, I still rekon SA was the pinnacle of fun GTA games.


Anyway, yeah sorry, Lie might almost be KMs worst effort.  :justjen It's kinda fun wordplay but I can't take it very seriously. (although maybe that was the idea ).
« Last Edit: May 01, 2014, 01:19:27 AM by Rodni Demental »

Offline GPedrosa

  • Posts: 29
  • Gender: Male
Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #4591 on: May 01, 2014, 01:18:12 AM »
[/completelynontopicrelated]

I'm off to plot a graph of mIRC usage statistics that prove Vice City was the last great Grand Theft Auto game.

It was definitely more fun than IV and V depite the former two being video game blockbuster juggernauts that were technically more advanced, I still rekon SA was the pinnacle of fun GTA games.
Of course it was. As great as Lie.  :laugh: :laugh:

Offline Rodni Demental

  • Posts: 1113
  • Gender: Male
Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #4592 on: May 01, 2014, 01:21:49 AM »
I dunno if Lie could hold my attention for as long as GTA:SA.. I'd probably have been driven insane if I tried to make it last that long.. OR it'd make me love it finally? :laugh:

Offline BlobVanDam

  • Future Boy
  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 38940
  • Gender: Male
  • Transform and rock out!
Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #4593 on: May 01, 2014, 01:23:18 AM »
Lie and GTA:SA are both terrible. :lol
Only King could mis-spell a LETTER.
Yep. I think the only party in the MP/DT situation that hasn't moved on is DTF.

Offline Rodni Demental

  • Posts: 1113
  • Gender: Male
Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #4594 on: May 01, 2014, 01:25:53 AM »
Lie and GTA:SA are both terrible. :lol

Could I recommend making a custom playlist with Lie, Lie (demo), Lie (single edit), loop while completing SA. It's obviously the only way to appreciate both.

Offline robwebster

  • Posts: 5021
Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #4595 on: May 01, 2014, 01:28:10 AM »
It's all about the Steve Tushar Remix.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pz3KD7RAmZE

Offline BlobVanDam

  • Future Boy
  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 38940
  • Gender: Male
  • Transform and rock out!
Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #4596 on: May 01, 2014, 01:28:34 AM »
Lie and GTA:SA are both terrible. :lol

Could I recommend making a custom playlist with Lie, Lie (demo), Lie (single edit), loop while completing SA. It's obviously the only way to appreciate both.

Good god, the only thing missing is a car battery connected to my nads. I didn't think that kind of torture was legal!
Only King could mis-spell a LETTER.
Yep. I think the only party in the MP/DT situation that hasn't moved on is DTF.

Offline GPedrosa

  • Posts: 29
  • Gender: Male
Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #4597 on: May 01, 2014, 01:29:19 AM »
You guys are making me feel crazy. It's 04:26 AM here and it's cold. I'm going to sleep.  See ya guys.  :metal

Offline GPedrosa

  • Posts: 29
  • Gender: Male
Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #4598 on: May 01, 2014, 01:31:30 AM »
It's all about the Steve Tushar Remix.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pz3KD7RAmZE
Holy crap. This is good. :facepalm:

Offline Bolsters

  • Lost Boy
  • DTF.org Member
  • *
  • Posts: 5487
  • Gender: Male
  • What a hell of a day to embrace disorder
Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #4599 on: May 01, 2014, 01:31:54 AM »

Offline Rodni Demental

  • Posts: 1113
  • Gender: Male
Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #4600 on: May 01, 2014, 01:38:58 AM »
Lie and GTA:SA are both terrible. :lol

Could I recommend making a custom playlist with Lie, Lie (demo), Lie (single edit), loop while completing SA. It's obviously the only way to appreciate both.

Good god, the only thing missing is a car battery connected to my nads. I didn't think that kind of torture was legal!

I think it might have been legal before you added that last part. But you know, whatever you want to enhance the experience.  :P

It's all about the Steve Tushar Remix.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pz3KD7RAmZE

 :omg:

Offline BlobVanDam

  • Future Boy
  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 38940
  • Gender: Male
  • Transform and rock out!
Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #4601 on: May 01, 2014, 01:40:05 AM »
Lie and GTA:SA are both terrible. :lol

Could I recommend making a custom playlist with Lie, Lie (demo), Lie (single edit), loop while completing SA. It's obviously the only way to appreciate both.

Good god, the only thing missing is a car battery connected to my nads. I didn't think that kind of torture was legal!

I think it might have been legal before you added that last part. But you know, whatever you want to enhance the experience.  :P

:lol It's the only part of the experience I'm looking forward to! :zydar:
Only King could mis-spell a LETTER.
Yep. I think the only party in the MP/DT situation that hasn't moved on is DTF.

Offline Rodni Demental

  • Posts: 1113
  • Gender: Male
Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #4602 on: May 01, 2014, 01:59:17 AM »
Quote

:lol It's the only part of the experience I'm looking forward to! :zydar:

Haha, you might not need that sort of encouragement, it's probably too distracting  :eek. But if it makes you realise what a masterpiece SA is then I'm all for it. And let me know how you feel about Lie afterwards..

Nah.. just jenkin ya, I wouldn't even try and make someone listen to it once let alone on repeat, I mean there's a limit. ;) 

Offline wasteland

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 8011
  • Gender: Male
  • Jay Beckenstein was in Spyro Gyra, right?
Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #4603 on: May 01, 2014, 02:05:58 AM »
Ticket prices have also gone down. In 2012 I saw them for $85, whereas the super-special Boston show recently went for $56.

I paid 46€ in 2012 and 52€ in 2014.
:slayer: Somewhere, over the wasteland..... bootlegs fly :slayer:
MoraWintersoul is the BEST person.
- Marco

Offline rumborak

  • DT.net Veteran
  • ****
  • Posts: 26664
Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #4604 on: May 01, 2014, 07:55:47 AM »
Keep in mind that's a graph of message board usage, not a graph of being a fan. The Google one, meanwhile, shows a drop between Octavarium and Systematic Chaos, which we know for a fact does not represent the greater fanbase - so what are they really measuring?

It's more likely that message boards are dying. People are going to Twitter, Facebook, Tumblr - when you want to have a discussion about Dream Theater, you don't type "dream theater" into Google and see if there's any cool communities, you just launch your favourite app and start talking about Dream Theater - myself included! The minute DT12 came out, I fucked off for five months, my initial reactions are all on Twitter, and Facebook chat. We're living in an age where the discussion comes to us. There's still a place for message boards, but they're ever more niche.

There's an interesting conversation to be had, but it's one about how we curate online narratives. Now, if you'll excuse me, I'm off to plot a graph of mIRC usage statistics that prove Vice City was the last great Grand Theft Auto game.

There's definitely that aspect, but I don't think you can ascribe all the downward trend to it. The Google Trend graph really shows the same picture,  and bands like Porcupine Tree did not see the downward trend (they do now since they essentially disbanded, but up until then Google Trends was steady for them).
"I liked when Myung looked like a women's figure skating champion."

Offline robwebster

  • Posts: 5021
Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #4605 on: May 01, 2014, 09:47:33 AM »
Again, though - that's not representing how many people like them, it's how many people are searching for them - more likely to be rate of growth than size of fanbase. I'm trying to work out exactly what data we're gathering. Is it just the phrase dream theater, those exact words, or is it any search string containing the words Dream Theater?

I put in dream theater tour dates --



-- and it looks like it only pulls up results from the exact string. I think it's interesting data, just not quite sure what exactly we're looking at, and what - if anything, other than Google searches - it's actually measuring!

Offline rumborak

  • DT.net Veteran
  • ****
  • Posts: 26664
Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #4606 on: May 01, 2014, 10:06:35 AM »
Google Trends looks for exact string matches, yeah. But, I'm pretty sure that if you search "dream theater discography", that will show up in the "dream theater" trend too. It's just not the other way around, e.g. a search for "I have a dream" won't count towards DT.

Again, though - that's not representing how many people like them, it's how many people are searching for them - more likely to be rate of growth than size of fanbase.

I think what it shows is how many people are interested in them, in the sense of trying to find out information about them. I can see the argument that message boards are a dying form of communication, but I don't buy the argument that people stop using Google for the things they are interested in.
"I liked when Myung looked like a women's figure skating champion."

Offline robwebster

  • Posts: 5021
Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #4607 on: May 01, 2014, 10:22:39 AM »
I can see the argument that message boards are a dying form of communication, but I don't buy the argument that people stop using Google for the things they are interested in.
Good, I'd hope not, nor would I! But I think people gradually stop Googling the name of their favourite band. If it's just doing that individual search string a search for dream theater is more likely to signify rate of growth than size of fanbase. A new fan is very likely to google the phrase dream theater, an old one... not so much! More specific.

Case in point --



Muse weren't tiny in 2004, Absolution made a splash, but they weren't enormous, either. They'd played my town hall just three years hence - and three years later, they'd be playing Wembley Arena. They engorged, but that graph just shows a steady three year loop. I think it's more likely to represent steady growth than no real growth.

I would add that Google is no longer the only way that people look for things. Don't get me wrong, I agree, Google is still pretty much the beating heart of the internet, people haven't stopped using it, but it's less crucial to the way we engage with banal data. Five years ago I'd have Googled "Forsaken lyrics," now I'll click the "find lyrics" button in MediaMonkey.  Lots of people have been working very hard to beam data directly into our pockets.

Offline rumborak

  • DT.net Veteran
  • ****
  • Posts: 26664
Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #4608 on: May 01, 2014, 11:05:15 AM »
But I think people gradually stop Googling the name of their favourite band. If it's just doing that individual search string a search for dream theater is more likely to signify rate of growth than size of fanbase. A new fan is very likely to google the phrase dream theater, an old one... not so much!

I think the important distinction here is, not everybody is a fan. I agree, actual fans will have other ways of keeping up with their favorite bands. I think what Google Trends is showing are the casual person interested in Dream Theater. I definitely find myself googling Muse, Daft Punk or whatever, every time I learn that they did something new.

And even if, again, other bands don't show that *overall* decline. Your Muse graph, IMO, looks reasonably steady in its baseline. More telling I would say, check out A7X's graph: https://www.google.com/trends/explore#q=%2Fm%2F041f35
I think no matter how you slice it, DT is increasingly failing to mobilize the interest of casual fans. And that pretty much coincides with my personal experience. I still follow them, but none of my friends who used to follow DT are still doing so.
"I liked when Myung looked like a women's figure skating champion."

Offline Jaq

  • Posts: 4050
  • Gender: Male
  • Favorite song by Europe: Carrie.
Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #4609 on: May 01, 2014, 11:08:40 AM »
Sure is a lot of confirmation bias in this thread  :lol
The bones of beasts and the bones of kings become dust in the wake of the hymn.
Mighty kingdoms rise, but they all will fall, no more than a breath on the wind.

Offline rumborak

  • DT.net Veteran
  • ****
  • Posts: 26664
Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #4610 on: May 01, 2014, 11:13:09 AM »
Probably, on both sides, yeah :lol

I feel I'm drawing in more data though. The way it stands, DT's Google Trends graph is the odd one out (and is corroborated by DTF's posting stats), whereas rob's hypothesis of "expected googling decline" doesn't seem to hold water with other bands' trend graphs. Bands like A7X maintain a steady (or even increasing) number of search queries. So does Steven Wilson.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2014, 11:18:11 AM by rumborak »
"I liked when Myung looked like a women's figure skating champion."

Offline robwebster

  • Posts: 5021
Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #4611 on: May 01, 2014, 11:37:32 AM »
Steven Wilson didn't exist as a solo musician until Insurgentes in 2009, so of course he's gone up, and A7X have been in steady decline since August 2010.

I agree something's reducing, I just don't think the Google Trends Graph is quite the fanometer you're suggesting. Doctor Who's TV ratings are sinking, but it's got nothing to do with popularity, and everything to do with the way people are consuming television - on iPlayer, it breaks record after record.

I'm sure I'm coming at this from a robwebster angle, but I don't think it's unscientific to go, "Hold up, how valid is that data, really?" rather than taking it as a direct feed from the interweb hive-mind.

Offline rumborak

  • DT.net Veteran
  • ****
  • Posts: 26664
Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #4612 on: May 01, 2014, 11:53:47 AM »
and A7X have been in steady decline since August 2010.

https://www.google.com/trends/explore#q=%2Fm%2F041f35

o_O?

That seems somewhat over-extrapolating it. Most of 2010-now is dominated by album spike+drop cycles, so it's hard to tell where the baseline is. When looking at the whole thing together, I would say they're at least holding steady, if not rising. In fact, when you take the low points to be the baseline, the lowest points have been on a steady rise. Very different to this: https://www.google.com/trends/explore#q=%2Fm%2F041f35%2C%20dream%20theater&cmpt=q
« Last Edit: May 01, 2014, 12:02:30 PM by rumborak »
"I liked when Myung looked like a women's figure skating champion."

Offline robwebster

  • Posts: 5021
Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #4613 on: May 01, 2014, 12:05:53 PM »
and A7X have been in steady decline since August 2010.

https://www.google.com/trends/explore#q=%2Fm%2F041f35

o_O?

That seems somewhat over-extrapolating it. Most of 2010-now is dominated by album spike+drop cycles, so it's hard to tell where the baseline is. When looking at the whole thing together, I would say they're at least holding steady, if not rising. In fact, when you take the low points to be the baseline, the lowest points have been on a steady rise. Very different to this: https://www.google.com/trends/explore#q=%2Fm%2F041f35%2C%20dream%20theater&cmpt=q



Come on, man! But do you think they're shedding their fanbase over that period?

Offline bosk1

  • King of Misdirection
  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 12791
  • Bow down to Boskaryus
Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #4614 on: May 01, 2014, 12:10:34 PM »
Of course they are.  Album and concert ticket sales mean nothing.  It's all about the Googles, man.
"The Supreme Court of the United States has descended from the disciplined legal reasoning of John Marshall and Joseph Story to the mystical aphorisms of the fortune cookie."

Offline Sir Walrus Cauliflower

  • Posts: 538
  • Gender: Male
Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #4615 on: May 01, 2014, 12:12:13 PM »
I can't believe it hasn't dropped off farther after Hail To The King was released...
I feel strangely honored to be following up a post from Sir Walrus Cauliflower.

Offline lithium112

  • Posts: 521
Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #4616 on: May 01, 2014, 12:29:39 PM »
I think the Google trend data might be a better assessment of the rate at which a band is accruing new fans. Not the overall number of fans they have. Once you're a fan of the band and have looked at their website or twitter/fb page or whatever, there's literally no reason to type that band's name by itself into Google. I haven't searched for DT since like 2006. In terms of overall popularity though... in my city their most recent show was in a venue twice the size of their previous one so looks like things are going pretty well!

Offline Rodni Demental

  • Posts: 1113
  • Gender: Male
Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #4617 on: May 01, 2014, 01:41:34 PM »
I find it interesting that the search terms derive form fairly different types of searches, meaning the information people are looking for in their searches differs for each band, for example, the top search terms for A7X are: avenged, sevenfold, avenged sevenfold, a7x, avenged sevenfold lyrics, nightmare avenged, avenged sevenfold dear god, avenged sevenfold download .

Where as the top DT searches are: dream theater download, album dream theatre, youtube dream theatre, dream theater live, mp3 dream theatre, dream theater torrent, dream theater tab, dream theater tour, dream theater drummer.

Seems like A7X terms are inquiring about songs and lyrics where as the DT searches imply that a lot more musicians, pirates and Europeans are looking them up.  :lol Also, there's no specific songs in the top searches, but rather a more general search for albums. Interestingly, the rising searches for DT are 'facebook, octavarium and wiki' where as the rising searches for A7X are 'nightmare, dear god, lagu', then more various 'nightmare' searches. They're totally stuck in a nightmare loop. But then after Hail To The King I'm not surprised people are pretending it didn't happen.. Okay now I'm getting too pompous but come on, HttK was a bit of let down.

The 2010 Spike was not long after the Rev died, and right during the release period of the much anticipated Nightmare album. Looks like they're on a decline at this point as far as google trends go, even if the baseline has been pushed a bit higher, this is most likely from the search trends skyrocketing after an event such as a band member dying. Which is probably a much bigger deal than a band member leaving.

I think google is as big as it's ever been and yet seeming not used as much these days because of changing technology, increased use of social networks etc. I wonder if there's a trend to represent that?

EDIT: https://www.google.com/trends/explore#q=google

Yeah, who knows what that means, despite the constant increase in searches, it's been on the decline since October last year. I draw from this that google must be on it's last legs and if they don't up their game they're going under.  ;D
« Last Edit: May 01, 2014, 02:09:11 PM by Rodni Demental »

Offline Grizz

  • Posts: 1666
Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #4618 on: May 01, 2014, 02:37:04 PM »
Lie and GTA:SA are both terrible. :lol
Quote from: Douglas Adams
Why don't you push off, you crudfaced old bat?

---


Ticket prices have also gone down. In 2012 I saw them for $85, whereas the super-special Boston show recently went for $56.
2012 was a real spike stateside. I've complained about this before.
"I raised the baby, I changed the baby's diapers.  Whenever the baby had projectile diarrhea, I was there in the line of fire.  I even got a little in my mouth!  I sacrificed so much for my baby.  Now my baby hates me and thinks Mike Mangini is its real father!"

Offline TheGreatPretender

  • The Second Dancing Turtle
  • Posts: 6981
  • Gender: Male
  • You are reading these words.
Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #4619 on: May 01, 2014, 03:12:28 PM »
But I think people gradually stop Googling the name of their favourite band. If it's just doing that individual search string a search for dream theater is more likely to signify rate of growth than size of fanbase. A new fan is very likely to google the phrase dream theater, an old one... not so much!

I think the important distinction here is, not everybody is a fan. I agree, actual fans will have other ways of keeping up with their favorite bands. I think what Google Trends is showing are the casual person interested in Dream Theater. I definitely find myself googling Muse, Daft Punk or whatever, every time I learn that they did something new.

Hence the spikes. But I do agree with rumbroak, now that he mentioned it. I have not googled "Dream Theater" by itself... Probably since 2009. Sometimes I google "Dream Theater discography" when I need to cross reference something or song and lyrics, or whatever. So yeah, if those graphs are actually showing, "How many people googled this exact combination of words" during those months, or whatever, then it could mean very little.


Also, I was just trying to see random DT trends, and this one I found particularly interesting:

https://www.google.ca/trends/explore#q=%22dream+theater+live%22
"How's that for a slice of fried gold?"