Author Topic: Your Controversial Opinions on DT  (Read 988398 times)

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Offline Nearmyth

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #4480 on: April 09, 2014, 09:15:21 PM »
Maybe elsewhere, but on DTF the abbreviations are very appreciated and click quite easily after a little while afaik :P
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Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #4481 on: April 09, 2014, 09:28:46 PM »
Something that bugs me a bit is that I find it difficult to know what song or album people are talking about on the forum using abreviation.  I mean, unless you know the band totally by heart, there is no way that it clicks as soon as you read something with abreviation.  It takes more time to write the whole word but it is easier to understand and mostly appreciated.
Sorry, but that is probably not going to happen very often.
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Offline TheGreatPretender

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #4482 on: April 09, 2014, 09:30:16 PM »
Something that bugs me a bit is that I find it difficult to know what song or album people are talking about on the forum using abreviation.  I mean, unless you know the band totally by heart, there is no way that it clicks as soon as you read something with abreviation.  It takes more time to write the whole word but it is easier to understand and mostly appreciated.

Well, Dream Theater is definitely a band that's WORTH knowing totally by heart.
The abbreviations don't really confuse me, but what bugs me about them sometimes is that I feel like these songs and albums deserve to be written out in full. They're too good to just be abbreviated. But it's a minor hangup.
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Offline BlobVanDam

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #4483 on: April 09, 2014, 10:02:27 PM »
There's another forum I go to that has a good little feature installed where common acronyms are automatically underlined, and when you hover over them, it pops up with what it stands for. Not sure if this forum software would support that add-on, but I found it to be a useful feature as a noob.
But you get used to the acronyms quickly enough if you stick around. :tup
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Offline Invisible

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #4484 on: April 10, 2014, 04:24:15 AM »
Would it be fair to say something like, The Enemy Inside = Constant Motion = As I Am = A Rite Of Passage = Pull Me Under = Panic Attack = On The Backs Of Angels? (I'd almost say Honor Thy Father, but that one's sorta different somehow, and As I Am kind of fits the bill just a little bit more. Same with Build Me Up Break Me Down, it has all the bits and pieces, it's problem is that OTBOA exists). I'm not just listing singles here, it's just all of these songs seem to serve a similar purpose on the album they originate from. I believe the other albums have a candidate for this idea but it gets more convoluted and subjective to include them all.

But DT songs can definitely be categorised into multiple different categories depending on your definition, so nothing is set. Although to me, The Enemy Inside is the 'hard rocker' by default, essentially the opening track (after an intro), being used as a set opener live, was released as the single. It's non stop energetic. It does actually have a few more elements than the 'hard rockers' of the past but I think it primarily takes this role on the new album. I be careful not to use the word 'heavy' because even though TEI is certainly a heavy song, the tone and technique style plays a huge part in determining if it's 'hard' or 'heavy' (but I'll avoid getting into attempts to describe abstract sounds with common words that can't properly define these ideas, they can only symbolise them).  :mehlin Because as someone mentioned, Enigma Machine is arguably 'heavier' than The Enemy Inside. And the other songs on DT12 seem to represent multiple DT styles.

Considering all that though, it still feels like another 'hard rocker' (for lack of better simple description) would've been nice on DT12 but that's just me. There's more than enough content in the other songs to be happy and I can't expect DT to tred the same ground twice just for the sake of it, but all the songs mentioned at the beginning of this post, I think DT need to make more in the style of. ;)

They're really good at making these songs, but I always think they hold back and only write about 1 every album cycle, trying and stick to their proggy roots which tends to lean away from these 'harder' songs. BUT it absolutely doesn't have to.

Then again they're also good doing 'epicly big' sounding songs, but still structured to a formula (like The Bigger Picture, which for serious lack of a better word is almost a ballad, but it's too HUGE to be considered as such in the traditional sense). And they've been pulling that off pretty well lately (Breaking All Illusions/Bridges In The Sky/Behind The Veil etc.)
I think they have a balanced amount of hard rockers, but then again, it's completely subjective as to what songs you like the most from the band. Whatever style they chose to do, you'll want more of the one you liked.

To the ones you mentioned, I'd add The Root Of All Evil in Octavarium, Caught In A Web, Lie from Awake(and 6:00 depending on how it sounds to you), Burning My Soul from FII, Raise The Knife on the B Sides, Strange Deja Vu and Beyond This Life on Scenes(we could discuss these two, but they kind of fit IMHO). The funny thing is that the only album where it's absent is Six Degrees, unless you count About To Crash(Reprise) but it doesn't fit into straight hard rockers.

All things considered, they've done their fair share of rockers I think, but as I said, it's 100% subjective. I'm not sure if they hold back to making more songs like this, I think these sort of songs are actually a result of them holding back of doing something more "proggier" whatever you want to call it and trying to keep it straight and straightforward. It's hard when you have multiple musicians who can take one riff and elaborate 10 different ideas on the spot to actually preserve that riff or style through the entire song and not take it into different paths.

Offline PixelDream

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #4485 on: April 10, 2014, 03:49:46 PM »
There's less energy on these newer DT records. I can hear they've matured, they're not rocking as hard anymore, even though it sometimes is 'heavy'.

In that respect, Train of Thought was perfectly timed. They were still relatively young then, and I feel that they've perfectly conveyed the dark and heavy emotions on that record.
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Offline TheGreatPretender

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #4486 on: April 10, 2014, 03:54:09 PM »
There's less energy on these newer DT records. I can hear they've matured, they're not rocking as hard anymore, even though it sometimes is 'heavy'.

In that respect, Train of Thought was perfectly timed. They were still relatively young then, and I feel that they've perfectly conveyed the dark and heavy emotions on that record.

Although I love ToT, I will admit, that certain parts of it, like the ending of TDS and certain instrumental bits here and there, may have had TOO much energy. I mean, don't get me wrong, I love those parts, but that doesn't mean that DT should put that kind of craziness into every record. Aside from that, if by not rocking as hard, you mean they don't really have anything to be passionately angry about, I agree, but then it wasn't like I&W, SFAM or SDOIT were particularly "hard" either. In terms of heaviness, I'd say DT is more "Metal" than they've ever been, at least, at their most extreme these days.
But they don't need to be angry or angsty to be hard rocking.
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Offline Invisible

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #4487 on: April 10, 2014, 09:50:17 PM »
If The Enemy Inside or Enigma Machine aren't energetic, I don't know what is. :-\

Offline GentlemanofDread

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #4488 on: April 11, 2014, 10:53:41 AM »
I do not like Beyond This Life at all. The first part of it is interesting and cool lyrically and vocal melody, but then it descends into too much "OH WELL LET'S THROW THIS IN FUCK IT" type of playing that kind of sets back my love for a lot of Prog Rock based bands.
i don't even like dt but i had keyboard and an ipad so what the fuck
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Offline Invisible

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #4489 on: April 11, 2014, 12:14:35 PM »
I used to agree on that, but after seeing Live at Budokan I changed my mind. But I still agree that it's only cool to watch live, not so great to just listen on a record.

Offline Tom Bombadil

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #4490 on: April 11, 2014, 01:14:32 PM »
I agree that the instrumental section really brings it down, but the rest is so good that I still really like the song.

Offline ?

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #4491 on: April 11, 2014, 02:42:44 PM »
The instrumental section is easily the worst part, but I'm not crazy about the rest of the song either. The main riff is kind of generic, the vocal melodies are forgettable and the lyrics are pretty clumsy because of the newspaper style they were written in. I know it's part of the concept and all that jazz, but it makes me cringe.

Offline TheGreatPretender

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #4492 on: April 11, 2014, 02:57:48 PM »
I think that instrumental section is great on its own, but being a song that comes right after Fatal Tragedy, it's inevitably a let down. It just can't compare.
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Offline BlobVanDam

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #4493 on: April 11, 2014, 10:48:58 PM »
The instrumental section of BTL is not only a highlight of the song for me, but a highlight of the album, and one of my favourite tracks. That is what I love hearing from DT. Crazy, fun, wacky, fast, incredible, without any pretension, off the leash. It makes me mourn for some of the more recent albums.
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Offline Outcrier

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #4494 on: April 12, 2014, 12:54:37 AM »
The instrumental section of BTL is not only a highlight of the song for me, but a highlight of the album, and one of my favourite tracks.

:hifive:

Pretender has a good point though, it comes after Fatal Tragedy. I do prefer it over BTL but it isn't a letdown for me.
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Offline Invisible

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #4495 on: April 12, 2014, 01:08:37 AM »
Ok, controversial opinion: Fatal Tragedy is a song that probably wouldn't make my Top 70.

 :corn

Offline TheGreatPretender

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #4496 on: April 12, 2014, 01:45:25 AM »
Ok, controversial opinion: Fatal Tragedy is a song that probably wouldn't make my Top 70.

 :corn

As much as I love it, the first part is not my favorite. But here's how I divide it up:

Vocal part: 4/10
Instrumental part: 15/10

So the average is still 9/10. That instrumental is just too amazing.
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Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #4497 on: April 12, 2014, 05:57:43 AM »
That instrumental is just too amazing.
Agreed.  One of my favorite parts of any album, DT or otherwise.
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Offline Rodni Demental

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #4498 on: April 16, 2014, 10:59:19 PM »
The instrumental section is easily the worst part, but I'm not crazy about the rest of the song either. The main riff is kind of generic, the vocal melodies are forgettable and the lyrics are pretty clumsy because of the newspaper style they were written in. I know it's part of the concept and all that jazz, but it makes me cringe.

I think it's my favourite song on the album although some other songs have some other great moments, the instrumental section does it for me. The riffs are simple but catchy, and are just rockin during the solos. And the guitar sweeps (you know the bit) blow my mind every time. Even Jordans infamous horn section has completely grown on me, which started off from 'what the hell is this'. My only gripe with the song is that the opening/motif riff isn't particularly interesting. But it also grew on me in context of it's development later, but I'll admit it almost puts you off the song at first.  :lol

Offline Tom Bombadil

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #4499 on: April 16, 2014, 11:23:48 PM »
I'm apparently the only person in the world who thinks this, but I quite like the beginning of Fatal Tragedy, and absolutely despise the instrumental section.

Offline Nearmyth

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #4500 on: April 17, 2014, 12:07:56 AM »
The instrumental section of Beyond This Life is my favorite part of the song, and it's probably my second favorite song on the album  :biggrin:
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Offline Onno

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #4501 on: April 17, 2014, 02:06:43 AM »
Here's another controversial (?) opinion. I started typing this post in the Opeth thread (we were discussing diversity) but it definitely belongs here.

I don't think DT's lastest few albums have been very diverse. SC and BC&SL were similar to each other. ADTOE and DT12 basically for me were just representations of the core DT sound, albeit two different sides of it. They didn't introduce anything new to me, except for the orchestral section on IT, Beneath the Surface and the intro to BITS.

If you start at WDADU and go forward in time, there's a huge variety of styles in DT's albums. I&W is a more refined, mature and proggy version of WDADU, where the band found the sound they were looking for and all the tiny flaws in songwriting were fixed. Awake is structured differently, is a lot darker and isn't standard prog at all IMO.
FII was a lot more simple and maybe commercial, and while not everyone likes it and most people don't like a few songs on it, the good songs on that album are truly great and add diversity to DT's catalogue.
SFAM was the band's first full-fledged concept album and it sounded more 'modern', while also in a way paying homage to classic prog. More diversity. SDOIT, IMO, is their most experimental album to date by a mile, and while being classic DT (especially the second disk), it discovers new ground while still being amazing. Heck, it's my favourite DT album.
ToT was like Awake in a way, because it was a lot darker and heavier than usual. However, it sounded a lot different from Awake; for example, while Awake had a very distinctive feature in JLB's epic vocals like I&W, ToT had some really good melodies but JLB sounds totally different. Of course, this is logical regarding the vocal chords incident, but it still makes a large difference. ToT is heavier than Awake, has fewer songs and different structures. Not all people like ToT, but again, it IS different.
Octavarium was basically a summation of most of the things DT had done before, with the modern sound of ToT and SFAM. In my opinion, that's also diversity. Why? Because, for example, the heavy songs (i.e. TROAE and PA) are not as dark and thus couldn't have really fitted on ToT. The shorter, more poppy songs, like IWBY and TALW, couldn't have fitted on FII either. The album is a summation of styles, but the songs fit together really well and all have some distinctive quality which makes them a bit different.
Now we arrive at SC. For me, SC was a bit of a mix of Octavarium and ToT. It was a heavy and dark album, but not as dark as ToT. Still, here's where the diversity begins to decline a bit for me. There are definitely some new ideas on this album (PoW, Repentance, CM) but not all of them work so well, and the overall sound of the album isn't that different from things they've done before. Still, I think the album is diverse and differs in some way from the previous albums, and I like the album.
BC&SL marked another slight decline in diversity. Again, it was pretty heavy and dark, but now the album was focused on long songs and lots of instrumental stuff. There aren't a lot of new ideas/concepts on this disk, but there are some: the volume swells in TCOT and MP's more prominent background vocals (which also were more prominent on SC, and which I think most people don't really like that much). Again, I like the album, but it just isn't that diverse as an album and it doesn't offer a very great deal of 'new' sounds or styles.
ADTOE for me marked a big decline in diversity. For me, the album basically marks a return to DT's familiar sound without sounding very dark or very heavy. Still, it absolutely sounds like DT. I don't really mind this album not being different; it is a good album, and hey, you have to stabilize a bit after you've just had a founding member leave, right?
However, I was very much disappointed when DT12 came out. For me, while it would seem like the album is very different from the rest of the discography, it is not. Yes, the songs are shorter, and more focused on choruses. Yes, there is a huge orchestral section in the epic. Yes, there is a sort of Easter Egg outro to that same epic. But still, in my opinion its sound isn't different from the rest of DT's discography at all. In my opinion, this is basically just another summation of DT's sound which started with Octavarium. SC, BC&SL, ADTOE and DT12 do not sound very different at all; maybe ADTOE is the odd one out here, but that's only because it's less dark and heavy than the rest.

Someone who had attended the listening parties for DT12, I don't remember who it was, said on this forum that DT12 sounded a bit like SC and BC&SL style mixed with I&W and Awake's shorter songs. That got me very excited. I love all of these albums. And in a way, it did sound like that. But it didn't sound like that in a way that I had expected, or rather, in a way that I hadn't expected. What do I mean by that? Well, I had expected something new, which still retained the DT core sound. In a way, I had expected DT12 to do something similar to what SDOIT had done, which was experimenting with new ideas while retaining the core sound. And with a new drummer, I had expected something new. Well, for me it wasn't.

Offline James Sucellus

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #4502 on: April 18, 2014, 07:49:39 PM »
I'm new, so be gentle, as it's my first time...  :hat

Awake is by far Dream Theater's greatest achievement. Not only is it their bravest, most experimental work (before their typical style and routine was solidified), but it is their clear masterpiece in terms of musical composition and lyrics. An incredible work of art, and whilst I rate Images and Words, Scenes From a Memory and Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence as their other classics, it makes me sad that the band will never try anything as progressive as Awake again due to its poor reception in some circles.

Having said that, Images and Words is perhaps their most flawless album, and likely the most perfect album out there.

Offline TheGreatPretender

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #4503 on: April 18, 2014, 07:55:09 PM »
Welcome to the forums! Actually, this thread is for opinions that most people would disagree with. I'm pretty sure that most people (here, anyway) would agree with all you've said.
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Offline James Sucellus

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #4504 on: April 18, 2014, 08:04:18 PM »
Welcome to the forums! Actually, this thread is for opinions that most people would disagree with. I'm pretty sure that most people (here, anyway) would agree with all you've said.

I've read a lot of dislike for Awake in the online fan community, although I admit it may be disproportionate and not at all representative. Thankfully, I seem to have found a place where I'm not alone in seeing its monumental qualities. The peak of prog metal for me.

Offline TheGreatPretender

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #4505 on: April 18, 2014, 08:05:05 PM »
Yup. For the most part, TDFers LOVE their Awake.  :biggrin:
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Offline Grizz

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #4506 on: April 18, 2014, 08:06:58 PM »
Welcome to DTF, where Awake is jerked off, Black Clouds is shat on, and DTXII has an extremely mixed consensus.
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Offline Lucidity

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #4507 on: April 18, 2014, 08:08:36 PM »
Welcome to DTF, where Awake is jerked off, Black Clouds is shat on, and DTXII has an extremely mixed consensus.

Near as I can tell, DT12 has received like 90% adoration.

Offline Lucien

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #4508 on: April 18, 2014, 08:11:03 PM »
DT12 is an interesting case. Honestly I don't really go out of my way to listen to most of the songs on the album anymore, though I know they're great.
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Offline TheGreatPretender

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #4509 on: April 18, 2014, 08:11:59 PM »
Black Clouds is shat on

Not nearly as much as SC.

And let's not forget Raw Dog, they should rename it to "Underaw Dog"
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Offline James Sucellus

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #4510 on: April 18, 2014, 08:12:18 PM »
Black Clouds is shat on

It's an alright album, just rather directionless, and The Shattered Fortress isn't as inspired as it should have been. The Count of Tuscany is a fucking classic for me though, and the songs are at least all listenable (if overlong), whereas Falling into Infinity and Octavarium each have tracks I find dull.

Actually, considering the incredibly high standing Octavarium has in some circles, it'd probably be controversial for me to say I only particularly like its opening and closing songs. I much prefer the painfully underrated Systematic Chaos.

Dream Theater hasn't quite sunk in with me yet, but it's a good album, and I especially adore The Bigger Picture.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2014, 08:21:55 PM by James Sucellus »

Offline Tom Bombadil

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #4511 on: April 18, 2014, 08:13:49 PM »
I'm new, so be gentle, as it's my first time...  :hat

Awake is by far Dream Theater's greatest achievement. Not only is it their bravest, most experimental work (before their typical style and routine was solidified), but it is their clear masterpiece in terms of musical composition and lyrics. An incredible work of art, and whilst I rate Images and Words, Scenes From a Memory and Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence as their other classics, it makes me sad that the band will never try anything as progressive as Awake again due to its poor reception in some circles.

Having said that, Images and Words is perhaps their most flawless album, and likely the most perfect album out there.
I never stop gushing over Awake. It's my favorite album ever by a wide margin. I think we're going to get along :)

Offline Grizz

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #4512 on: April 18, 2014, 08:14:51 PM »
As an apologist for Black Clouds, anti-theism, and the Atari 5200, I can't defend Systematic Chaos.
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Offline James Sucellus

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #4513 on: April 18, 2014, 08:19:23 PM »
Not even In the Presence of Enemies Pt. 1? That song is badassery condensed in to wave form.

Offline TheGreatPretender

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #4514 on: April 18, 2014, 08:38:41 PM »
Systematic Chaos rules. One of DT's best, regardless of nay sayers.
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