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Your Controversial Opinions on DT

Started by Lucidity, December 17, 2012, 07:28:25 PM

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Implode

Quote from: rumborak on March 28, 2014, 06:16:28 AM
Screw the haters. I thought the set list was one of the best parts about this year's concert.

I agree. I'm really actually disappointed that I can't see them this tour even though I don't really care for DT12.

TheGreatPretender

Quote from: RodrigoAltaf on March 28, 2014, 06:27:15 AM
I really liked it as well, but I miss the setlist changes...the unpredictability of their setlists was a HUGE turn on a few years back.

Yeah, but you can also look at it from a different point of view. I mean, sure, it's interesting when the setlist is a complete surprise, but what if it's not a pleasant one. What if they happen to play a bunch of songs you don't really care for, and then you check the city they played right before yours and it's like, "What? They got Metropolis, The Glass Prison and ITPOE Pt1 and I got Burning My Soul, The Great Debate and New Millennium?" (or whatever songs you happen to not like as much). I'd feel kind of cheated.

This year's setlist has been so perfect, that I was hoping they wouldn't change a single thing about it for the American leg, and thankfully they didn't. And JP had a point. With the current setlist, it really feels like everything is very properly placed and there's a journey to it.
As much thought as MP put into WHICH songs they played, sometimes, a setlist came off as just a bunch of songs, with no thought behind the flow of it. LAB is the perfect example of this.

Invisible

I really like the setlist, but I actually see why some people wouldn't and it comes to one issue: it's too one sided. If you happen to not like the albums they are paying tribute to, or the side of the album they chose(Awake is a very different album from 6:00 to The Silent Man than The Mirror to Space Dye Vest), you won't enjoy the show. But other than that, I really appreaciate the thought they seem to have put on it, and the risk they took. It could've easily backfired if they miscalculated how much the fans like the songs.

That being said, I'd like them for the next tour to come up with some compromise between a well constructed setlist and have some surprises at their sleeves. I always thought it would be better if they came up with a setlist A and B or if they constructed them with similar songs on the same spots. Like a Ballad section with four ballad to choose from, Lines in the Sand switching with Trial of Tears, etc. Kind of like they did last tour. It's actually harder than it looks, since they don't have undisputed fan favourites and most importantly, their songs are just too darn long. Playing an epic means rejecting two to four songs, playing a 15 minute song is kind of the same, etc. It's really hard to come up with something that will leave everyone satisfied. Hell, I find myself very conflicted when I create playlists off DT songs, I can't imagine if I had to think of a setlist.

On a side note, I found that DT12 sounds a lot better with the volume on mid level than if you crank it up. In the mid range I can hear everything properly, if I crank it the guitars take over everything, I don't know how that works. :-\

Zook

Quote from: tiagodon on March 28, 2014, 09:27:49 AM
More controversial opinions!
I don't understand why John Myung's bass lines are so low in DT's recordings.
Why they seem to turn everything else up till the bass disappears?

That's not controversial. Everyone feels that way. EVERYONE.

rumborak

Regarding the "risk" of playing half of Awake and SFAM: the risk was zero. Those two albums regularly show up in the top 5 of album polls. Blob hates them, but then again he's listening to the albums upside down. That just *has* to influence perception.

TheGreatPretender

Quote from: Invisible on March 28, 2014, 03:29:27 PM
I really like the setlist, but I actually see why some people wouldn't and it comes to one issue: it's too one sided. If you happen to not like the albums they are paying tribute to, or the side of the album they chose(Awake is a very different album from 6:00 to The Silent Man than The Mirror to Space Dye Vest), you won't enjoy the show. But other than that, I really appreaciate the thought they seem to have put on it, and the risk they took. It could've easily backfired if they miscalculated how much the fans like the songs.

Yes, but in this case, if you feel that strongly about it, at least you can always not buy the ticket. You don't have to worry, going into it, about whether you'll hear something you will or won't like. And even if there's something you're not a big fan of, at least you'll be ready for it.

Last time around, even though they had Setlist A and Setlist B, there were some songs on both setlists that I wasn't too crazy about. So I started listening to them a bit more, and I actually grew to appreciate them a lot more, and like them quite a bit. And now, These Walls and Caught In A Web are among my favorites. Still not crazy about the Great Debate. But I actually thought they would play it last time around (instead of introducing Setlist C as they did) and at least I mentally prepared myself for hearing it.

Nearmyth

On the setlist thing: I just saw DT last night in upper darby PA (second show, first I've seen on the new tour!!), and even though I knew most of the setlist beforehand I must say that it's pretty sick.

The songs flow extremely well with each other, as if it was all one big album. The Awake portion was fantastic, and Illumination Theory is absolutely KILLER live, at least more so than I thought it would be.

Like what someone said earlier, I never thought I would get to see Space Dye Vest, Scarred, AND Finally Free in one night. Those, along with Breaking All Illusions and IT, are all in my top 20, so I was pretty stoked. For someone who might not like Awake or SFAM all that much I could see why there would be a problem with the set, but I think it put on a really great show nevertheless  ::)

My enthusiasm might just be because this is only the second time I've seen DT, the last time being the ADTOE tour. But in comparison, I think that the Along For The Ride tour has a much better setlist.

TheGreatPretender

Well, they don't play TDOE too often either (Do they?) It being my second favorite DT song, and the one song that got me into the band in the first place, I feel quite blessed to have had the pleasure of seeing it played live.

GasparXR

Quote from: TheGreatPretender on March 28, 2014, 04:16:48 PM
Well, they don't play TDOE too often either (Do they?) It being my second favorite DT song, and the one song that got me into the band in the first place, I feel quite blessed to have had the pleasure of seeing it played live.

Not sure how often it was actually played, but it was played in 2009/2010 at least a few times. I enjoyed seeing it, but I would have rather had Beyond This Life or Home. After all, the Awake anniversary has 38+ minutes devoted to it, whereas the SFAM set only has 28+ minutes devoted to it.

TheGreatPretender

Quote from: GasparXR on March 28, 2014, 04:37:40 PM
Not sure how often it was actually played, but it was played in 2009/2010 at least a few times. I enjoyed seeing it, but I would have rather had Beyond This Life or Home. After all, the Awake anniversary has 38+ minutes devoted to it, whereas the SFAM set only has 28+ minutes devoted to it.

Yeah, but your'e talking about an era where the playlists changed constantly, right? Seeing it live back then would've been an extremely lucky occurrence, without actually following the band.

Quality over quantity though, if you ask me. I'd prefer DTOE over any song on the album, Strange Deja-Vu being a close secong along with Overture, and hey, we got to hear those as well!  :metal

Invisible

Quote from: TheGreatPretender on March 28, 2014, 03:59:08 PM
Quote from: Invisible on March 28, 2014, 03:29:27 PM
I really like the setlist, but I actually see why some people wouldn't and it comes to one issue: it's too one sided. If you happen to not like the albums they are paying tribute to, or the side of the album they chose(Awake is a very different album from 6:00 to The Silent Man than The Mirror to Space Dye Vest), you won't enjoy the show. But other than that, I really appreaciate the thought they seem to have put on it, and the risk they took. It could've easily backfired if they miscalculated how much the fans like the songs.

Yes, but in this case, if you feel that strongly about it, at least you can always not buy the ticket. You don't have to worry, going into it, about whether you'll hear something you will or won't like. And even if there's something you're not a big fan of, at least you'll be ready for it.

Last time around, even though they had Setlist A and Setlist B, there were some songs on both setlists that I wasn't too crazy about. So I started listening to them a bit more, and I actually grew to appreciate them a lot more, and like them quite a bit. And now, These Walls and Caught In A Web are among my favorites. Still not crazy about the Great Debate. But I actually thought they would play it last time around (instead of introducing Setlist C as they did) and at least I mentally prepared myself for hearing it.
Well, you counterargumented yourself there, that's exactly my point! :lol With two or three setlists you still know the odds and it gives you time to prepare for it, but you don't know exactly so you still have room for surprises. My second point it's that a lot of albums are completely left aside, leaving only 3 that they do justice and 2 they barely mention, so if you're not a big fan of one of those albums the show won't be that great. You can endure one song you don't like, and album is more to ask. Like I said, for me this setlist is great, Awake is my favourite album, and Scenes is the second of my Tier 2, the first being the newest so for me this is great, but I can understand people don't liking it that much. And Blob isn't the only one not that crazy about Awake, it is among the universally praised, but it has it's fair share of people not so crazy about it. Kind of like Six Degrees. The thing that surprised me the most is the complete absence of Images & Words, it must be the first time that album dissapears completely from the setlist.

GasparXR

Indeed, the absence of I&W surprised me as well. I imagine that if their still going for songs that haven't been played recently, when it returns it will be in the form of Take the Time.

TheGreatPretender

Quote from: Invisible on March 28, 2014, 06:46:00 PMWell, you counterargumented yourself there, that's exactly my point! :lol With two or three setlists you still know the odds and it gives you time to prepare for it, but you don't know exactly so you still have room for surprises. My second point it's that a lot of albums are completely left aside, leaving only 3 that they do justice and 2 they barely mention, so if you're not a big fan of one of those albums the show won't be that great. You can endure one song you don't like, and album is more to ask. Like I said, for me this setlist is great, Awake is my favourite album, and Scenes is the second of my Tier 2, the first being the newest so for me this is great, but I can understand people don't liking it that much. And Blob isn't the only one not that crazy about Awake, it is among the universally praised, but it has it's fair share of people not so crazy about it. Kind of like Six Degrees. The thing that surprised me the most is the complete absence of Images & Words, it must be the first time that album dissapears completely from the setlist.

Yeah, but I'm gonna be a selfish bastard and say that because I like everything on the setlist, I see no problem with them keeping it the same.  :P

And considering how good the production is, and how tight it is, and how great the performances were, even the songs that I wasn't totally looking forward to (namely BAI because I heard it last time and LSOAD because I don't think there's anything too remarkable about it) were still very enjoyable. If anything, I could see this kind of a concert changing people's minds about some of those songs, just because now they have a fantastic association with this awesome show.

And yes, a lot of the albums were left out, including the holy grail that is Images and Words, but you know, I'm sure next time SFAM and Awake will be left out, and they might show more attention to albums like TOT or 8VM. I can only hope that in 2017, they'll do a 10 year anniversary of Systematic Chaos and play half of that album.  :hefdaddy

Invisible

Quote from: TheGreatPretender on March 28, 2014, 08:25:32 PM
Yeah, but I'm gonna be a selfish bastard and say that because I like everything on the setlist, I see no problem with them keeping it the same.  :P
I almost said that to you, but it's better you said it yourself :P.

And 2017 is also FII 20th, so I'm actually hoping for those songs to come out :biggrin:.

red barchetta

I saw their last 4 shows in Montreal and here the greats songs they never played.

Octavarium, About to crash, Another day, Lines in the sand, Hell's kitchen, The spirit carries on.  The count of Toscany is another favorite along with songs from SC but they played TCOT while touring BC&SL.  I'm disapointed basically to not have seen them played Octavarium and Lines in the sand especially.  Bigger picture and This is the life are 2 great ballads I enjoy as well.

But I'm not a hater.  It's just that nothing of that in the last 5 years in 4 shows covering the last 3 albums.  And in my opinion, the Awake part of the show is weak.  But I understand that they want to celebrate the 20th anniversary release of it.

GasparXR

I'd rather in 2017 they do a 20th for FII and 15th for SDOIT. It wouldn't make much sense to do a 10th for an album that is especially unpopular with the fans. :P That and SC is my personal least favourite.

Ben_Jamin

Simple Solution....Don't Look At The Setlists.

BlobVanDam

#4392
Quote from: TheGreatPretender on March 28, 2014, 01:47:02 PM
Quote from: RodrigoAltaf on March 28, 2014, 06:27:15 AM
I really liked it as well, but I miss the setlist changes...the unpredictability of their setlists was a HUGE turn on a few years back.

Yeah, but you can also look at it from a different point of view. I mean, sure, it's interesting when the setlist is a complete surprise, but what if it's not a pleasant one. What if they happen to play a bunch of songs you don't really care for, and then you check the city they played right before yours and it's like, "What? They got Metropolis, The Glass Prison and ITPOE Pt1 and I got Burning My Soul, The Great Debate and New Millennium?" (or whatever songs you happen to not like as much). I'd feel kind of cheated.

And on the flip side, if you don't like the one set list, too bad. The first time they came here in 2007, we got a killer setlist, because they catered to the fact it was the first time, and there were many pleasant surprises in there. This tour, I know there's no chance of that.

Quote from: rumborak on March 28, 2014, 03:50:05 PM
Regarding the "risk" of playing half of Awake and SFAM: the risk was zero. Those two albums regularly show up in the top 5 of album polls. Blob hates them, but then again he's listening to the albums upside down. That just *has* to influence perception.

I don't even know what that's supposed to mean. I don't like Awake, but SFAM is my #2. One album.
And they're only half the setlist, and the other half of the setlist has 1 song from my top 4 DT albums, and only one song I love. For a band like DT with such a high percentage of songs I love, I don't even know how that's possible. :lol It's not a very balanced setlist imo, with a lot of omissions.

I think having a few basic setlists with some minor variations like last tour was a perfect middle ground. You could still have everything running smoothly, but still have some options there.

Rodni Demental

I can kind of see the 'one sidedness' of the current setlist, but like we've discussed fairly extensively, it's a game DT can never win, the closest they'll get is seeing that a majority of people are satisfied after the gig and whether the set gets a certain amount of praise from the fans. Which is clearly the case with this one or they might have changed it by now.

Personally, I think a lot of thought was put into this setlist (obviously a lot of thought was put into the shows production) but echoing whats been said here, the songs really do flow into each other smoothly. Also, regarding songs that might not be favourites for individuals. This is an experience that I find quite consistent with live shows, I remember specifically seeing Chris Cornell, (he was opening for another band that I'm almost ashamed to mention :P) they played a bunch of Soundgarden and Audioslave songs which everyone went nuts over, but he also played a very large chunk of songs from his more recent solo work, and even though I'd never heard any of these songs before, I really enjoyed it. To this day I can't even remember what the songs were but just being there, in the energy, experiencing music live, it has a different effect on your perception. You're less analytical about it and you just experience the groove and feel of the song so to speak.

I guarantee with a band like Dream Theater, (especially if you're a fairly hardcore fan) that you'd enjoy almost any song they played. And even if you otherwise weren't familiar or hadn't been a particular fan of certain songs, you'll be surprised how your appreciation changes when you're actually there.

TheGreatPretender

Quote from: Rodni Demental on March 28, 2014, 10:07:58 PM
I guarantee with a band like Dream Theater, (especially if you're a fairly hardcore fan) that you'd enjoy almost any song they played. And even if you otherwise weren't familiar or hadn't been a particular fan of certain songs, you'll be surprised how your appreciation changes when you're actually there.

I definitely agree with this.

aprilethereal

Quote from: TheGreatPretender on March 28, 2014, 11:16:11 PM
Quote from: Rodni Demental on March 28, 2014, 10:07:58 PM
I guarantee with a band like Dream Theater, (especially if you're a fairly hardcore fan) that you'd enjoy almost any song they played. And even if you otherwise weren't familiar or hadn't been a particular fan of certain songs, you'll be surprised how your appreciation changes when you're actually there.

I definitely agree with this.

Exactly. Happened to me with TSF and LSOAD.

Dreamer

Ok don't shoot me, this is a thread for controversial opinions right? Imho I'd say that A Dramatic Turn and DT12 are the best DT albums for a long time. Having said that, does anyone else think that the bands songwriting has improved without Portnoy?
Maybe this has been discussed elsewhere but anyway, I said it out loud!  :omg:

Jamesman42

I hate Forsaken on the album, but live it was amazing. Crazy how that works.

Lucien

Quote from: Dreamer on March 29, 2014, 09:32:55 AM
Ok don't shoot me, this is a thread for controversial opinions right? Imho I'd say that A Dramatic Turn and DT12 are the best DT albums for a long time. Having said that, does anyone else think that the bands songwriting has improved without Portnoy?
Maybe this has been discussed elsewhere but anyway, I said it out loud!  :omg:

This really isn't all that controversial.  :lol

jakepriest

Quote from: Dreamer on March 29, 2014, 09:32:55 AM
does anyone else think that the bands songwriting has improved without Portnoy?


No.

ThatOneGuy2112

Quote from: Lucien on March 29, 2014, 09:48:34 AM
Quote from: Dreamer on March 29, 2014, 09:32:55 AM
Ok don't shoot me, this is a thread for controversial opinions right? Imho I'd say that A Dramatic Turn and DT12 are the best DT albums for a long time. Having said that, does anyone else think that the bands songwriting has improved without Portnoy?
Maybe this has been discussed elsewhere but anyway, I said it out loud!  :omg:

This really isn't all that controversial.  :lol

I don't think seeing ADTOE as one of DT's best albums in a while is all that controversial, but it could apply to DT12. Half a year later, fans are still pretty divided and a lot are just as disappointed with it as they are with albums like Black Clouds and SC.

Quote from: jakepriest on March 29, 2014, 09:51:18 AM
Quote from: Dreamer on March 29, 2014, 09:32:55 AM
does anyone else think that the bands songwriting has improved without Portnoy?


No.

Tell us more, oh ambassador of the DT fandom. :lol

KevShmev

Quote from: Dreamer on March 29, 2014, 09:32:55 AM
Ok don't shoot me, this is a thread for controversial opinions right? Imho I'd say that A Dramatic Turn and DT12 are the best DT albums for a long time. Having said that, does anyone else think that the bands songwriting has improved without Portnoy?
Maybe this has been discussed elsewhere but anyway, I said it out loud!  :omg:

It quite obviously improved over what the songwriting had been on the last few albums with Portnoy, and I think the popularity of the last two albums says that quite clearly.

XB0BX

Systematic Chaos is one of DT's most beautiful albums. I love the melodies. Especially Forsaken.

jakepriest

Quote from: XB0BX on March 29, 2014, 10:07:55 AM
Systematic Chaos is one of DT's most beautiful albums. I love the melodies. Especially Forsaken.

You've been praising SC on every page of this thread. We get it.

Dreamer

Quote from: XB0BX on March 29, 2014, 10:07:55 AM
Systematic Chaos is one of DT's most beautiful albums. I love the melodies. Especially Forsaken.

I love Forsaken too, the best track on the album for me without doubt. Interesting how it sounds rather like Steven Wilson and Opeth.

theseoafs

Quote from: ThatOneGuy2112 on March 29, 2014, 10:02:37 AM
Quote from: Lucien on March 29, 2014, 09:48:34 AM
Quote from: Dreamer on March 29, 2014, 09:32:55 AM
Ok don't shoot me, this is a thread for controversial opinions right? Imho I'd say that A Dramatic Turn and DT12 are the best DT albums for a long time. Having said that, does anyone else think that the bands songwriting has improved without Portnoy?
Maybe this has been discussed elsewhere but anyway, I said it out loud!  :omg:

This really isn't all that controversial.  :lol

I don't think seeing ADTOE as one of DT's best albums in a while is all that controversial, but it could apply to DT12. Half a year later, fans are still pretty divided and a lot are just as disappointed with it as they are with albums like Black Clouds and SC.

I don't see where you're getting that.  Reception to DT12 seems to be more universally positive.

ThatOneGuy2112

Quote from: theseoafs on March 29, 2014, 11:42:36 AM
Quote from: ThatOneGuy2112 on March 29, 2014, 10:02:37 AM
Quote from: Lucien on March 29, 2014, 09:48:34 AM
Quote from: Dreamer on March 29, 2014, 09:32:55 AM
Ok don't shoot me, this is a thread for controversial opinions right? Imho I'd say that A Dramatic Turn and DT12 are the best DT albums for a long time. Having said that, does anyone else think that the bands songwriting has improved without Portnoy?
Maybe this has been discussed elsewhere but anyway, I said it out loud!  :omg:

This really isn't all that controversial.  :lol

I don't think seeing ADTOE as one of DT's best albums in a while is all that controversial, but it could apply to DT12. Half a year later, fans are still pretty divided and a lot are just as disappointed with it as they are with albums like Black Clouds and SC.

I don't see where you're getting that.  Reception to DT12 seems to be more universally positive.

From critics, yes. From the hardcore fanbase (basically the forum), I'd say its somewhat divided, with perhaps an inclination towards the positive. It certainly isn't universally regarded positively in the same way albums like I&W, SFAM, and SDOIT are, and I guess that's what I was getting at, though I acknowledge there are pretty good amount of people having praised DT12 now.

Sycsa

The initial reaction to DT12 was overwhelmingly positive everywhere. I remember being awestruck by the amount of praise and appreciation it received on MP's forums. I was somewhat surprised later on to see so many negative opinions pop up on DTF. It's a top 3 album for me.

ThatOneGuy2112

 :facepalm: :lol I should probably have taken a closer look at that DT Album Rankings thread a while back. Now that I look at it, DT12's reception here is pretty positive. It falls in the top 6 overall for me, which is still pretty good even though that puts it at around the middle out of all DT albums.

Implode

Huh. I always thought it was divided as well. That might be my bias in that I actually am not a big fan of DT12. Maybe in actuality, I'm in a minority.