Your Controversial Opinions on DT

[robwebster]

Speaking of opinions… before you just vanished I was quite interested to hear your thoughts on DT12. Care to plop 'em somewhere? In your own time of course.

"Speaking of opinions" is excellent. I'm going to use that for everything.

I was planning to do a big long review in collaboration with another member,  but it sort of fell by the wayside, so I don't think I'm going to go that route. I'm sure my views'll filter through before too long, but basically, highly favourable. I had two wishes going into this album: tighter songwriting, and some full-blown orchestral bits. Both came true, and both exceeded expectations. The new record is Dream Theater's strongest achievement as a group of songwriters, and a thirty-year old band has no right sounding so god damned relevant. Images and Words for the new millennium. Masterful.

It's funny, cos it was the least I've been hyped for a Dream Theater album - I was getting accustomed to the cycle, it was becoming a little routine - but it's probably transpired to be the album that most deserved that hype. It was never a conscious thought, I didn't actually realise until after the album was released, but there was a part of me that sort of figured the band had said more or less everything they needed to, figured that they'd keep making the kind of music I love but might've lost their ability to surprise me. I now know that's not even slightly the case. Possibly the most important DT album of the 21st century so far - it'll be interesting to see where they can go from here.

I don't know if that's controversial - I have no idea what the abiding opinion is - but if it is, I'm in the right thread! Speaking of opinions, what do you think of this dental floss?

[Invisible]

A lot of the problems you seem to have almost make it sound like you want DT not to be DT anymore.

Which makes me ask the good ol' philosophical question "What is Dream Theater?". I mean, is Dream Theater Trial of Tears, is it Metropolis, Pull Me Under, I Walk Beside You, Octavarium, Constant Motion, Just Let Me Breathe, The Glass Prison, Lifting Shadows, Speak To Me, A Change Of Seasons?... I mean, there quite a few sides to the band, but as you may or may not have observed, most of my examples of diversitiy come from the older material. I actually liked when there wasn't a DT "the prog metal band", but instead they did not restrain themselves to a sound or genre. They lost that progresively over the years.

That being said, this last album sounds the most solid and focused in years, like it or not. The songs change and evolve but never going far away from the original idea, and I liked the way they did it. I miss their older diversity, but as far as the "modern" DT sound, this may be their best effort. Of course, the exception on focused writing would be Illumination Theory, which has more of suite than a song feel to it, given how different the parts are. I even think that Six Degrees(the song) is a lot more cohesive, but aside from that, all their other songs sound very focused to me. I believe that for once, they saved all their riff/wank party for Enigma Machine, and let the other songs stay pretty much on point.

Oh, and btw, I always thought that the 'DT is not for everyone' thing was pretty much a fact .

DT is a progressive metal band. It's not that philosophical or complicated. The genre often includes influences from other styles. The fact that they wrote I Walk Beside You doesn't mean they are no longer only prog-metal and now partly a pop-rock band.  Those songs are the exception, rather than the rule.

Yep, I know that, the point I was kind of trying to make is that they became that way on their 5th album, before that they didn't really fit the genre, which was fine by me BTW. If someone told me that a band does Progresive Metal, WDADU and I&W would be about what I would expect, but not Awake or FII. My I guess controversial opinion is that I liked when DT wasn't a strictly progressive metal band, and I wish they'd tried again something a little bit different, that's all, and most importantly, by taking another route they wouldn't stop being DT, which was the reason I replied in the first place.

Not that I don't like this new album, I love it, and I put it on the Tier 2 along with ToT, Octavarium and SC, and above ADTOE and BC&SL(and of course WDADU which would be Tier 4 ).

[NotePad]

DT is mainly metal. Iv heard people describe I&W as more progressive rock rather than progressive metal. Now that I think about it, I actually agree.

Awake one maybe the second or third DT album I heard. It took a little bit but it warmed up to me and now I say it's one of their best. After that I went and got I&W and wasn't a fan, and I never warmed up o it. I lik Pull me under, Surrounded, Wait For Sleep. The remaining songs are long songs that have moments I enjoy but mostly don't. I find it crazy how I can like Awake soo much and really not enjoy  Images.

I'd like to see another Awake but I highly doubt they could do Awake pt 2 even if they tried. But Images & Words had the style of music they've been doing most of their careers, except of course witn a more modern and heavy production.  Too me ADToE sounds very much like a new I&W, along with Scenes. These are albums Im not a huge fan of. There's just something about those albums that make them very similar. It might be an 'operatic' quality to the songs, and they have more of that classic 'proggy' sound to them, with odd insturmentation(make sense?) and tempo changes within the songs that sound more like classis Prog bands. Awake and 8VM, for example, are for the most part straight to the point and have a more 'modern' sound to their riffs, melodies etc. But this is just how I perceive it

More opinions:
The 40 minute 6DoIT song suffers from sounding like just a bunch of 4 or 5 minute songs pasted together. This has a lot to do with the fact that each section is its own track, so iv always skipped ahead to certain sections. But even so, hearing it all start to finish reveals that that's just the nature of the song; it's just smaller songs pasted together with 2 bookends with a common theme/melody.

[KevShmev]

More opinions:
The 40 minute 6DoIT song suffers from sounding like just a bunch of 4 or 5 minute songs pasted together. This has a lot to do with the fact that each section is its own track, so iv always skipped ahead to certain sections. But even so, hearing it all start to finish reveals that that's just the nature of the song; it's just smaller songs pasted together with 2 bookends with a common theme/melody.

I think a lot of us think that, so it is not that controversial. 

[rumborak]

Blob,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RDGhVkQ7qzA

Dude, I watched that just two days ago

"Heeelloooooo sexy girlfriend ..... Banzai!!!"

[King Postwhore]

 

A great date night movie!

[Rodni Demental]

Hm...personally, don't listening to an album or song don't mean it is weaker than the others or etc...
For example, i have Lines in the Sand and Trial of Tears really high in my imaginary top DT songs but i rarely listen to them because i'm not very found of FII. That doesn't mean they arent great tracks though.

As much as I love OWNing the CD, but I do NOT like using them. Not only because handling the disc causes deterioration but, it's just a huge limitation (unless you've goin' for the full album spin). Once you've ripped the CD, digital music is so much easier to manage and sort through. Not to mention you've got a discography at your disposal to make any sort of playlist. Although I don't add new music to playlists, I like to digest them as an album primarily, then my favorites will make their way to various playlists.

Something else that will come up in DT songs that I don't enjoy and/or takes me out of the song are when JR plays really tacky, almost cartoonish stuff with his keyboards. Happens a lot when he does solos. From memory, I can say I often hear this during the beginning of instrumental sections. Hell, maybe it isn't even JR doing it but someone else, but I'm fairly certain it is him. I can't remember any particular songs that I can name, but it happens a lot. Was listening to SC today and definitely heard this. May have been in TDEN, not sure. But it's there, and it's frequent for DT.

No offence or anything, but I really hope JR doesn't listen to you, because I love those ragtime moments and silly moments. I also find it surprising that people find these bits somewhat offensive (or unappealing) to listen to as if it threw them off the ride. DT music has always been very experiential and I think those humorous moments in an otherwise very serious song are very intentional composition wise. People say it's tacky or something but I believe it's part of their musical expression and I wouldn't want DT to conform to anyones expectations.

I wish they would approach the writing of a new album with more self-restraint. And not show off so often. They can never seem to create an atmosphere and keep it for very long. They repeat themselves a LOT, and often sound very uninspired.
Just stirrin' the shit...

Well I know it's been mentioned a few times but DT12 is considered to be one of if not the most 'cohesive' works (whatever the hell that's supposed to mean in the world of prog music ) they've done in their entire career. So there you go right? If you want them to change anymore than that then you're expecting too much and wanting them to be something other than what they are. And you probably get sick of people saying this but, there are plenty of other artists and bands that fits your description of taste that can even be inspired by bands like Dream Theater but went in a slightly different direction.

Not saying you should dismiss DT either but in the words of JP: I know where I stand, I won't change to fit your plan.. In the words of MP: Help yourself to all I have to give, and then complain. and JLB: Nothing you can do to change me, but accept me as I am. 

Just stirrin' the shit...

It's all good, me too. 

[Jamesman42]

After a lot of time, bringing Mangini on board was the right call.

ADTOE and DT12 have a lot of great songs. There are a few that I find forgettable, such as BMUBMD, LNF, IT, and STR. I think besides those everything else has been great.

That said, that freaking easter egg at the end of IT is amazing. I think DT should shrug off the prog metal coat for a season and make that sort of beautiful music. They have the talent, they CAN still write good material, but let's hear them stripped back, no focus on wankery, and make some beautiful music. Heck, make it an instrumental album. Or EP. That would be such a treat.

[Outcrier]

Hm...personally, don't listening to an album or song don't mean it is weaker than the others or etc...
For example, i have Lines in the Sand and Trial of Tears really high in my imaginary top DT songs but i rarely listen to them because i'm not very found of FII. That doesn't mean they arent great tracks though.

As much as I love OWNing the CD, but I do NOT like using them. Not only because handling the disc causes deterioration but, it's just a huge limitation (unless you've goin' for the full album spin). Once you've ripped the CD, digital music is so much easier to manage and sort through. Not to mention you've got a discography at your disposal to make any sort of playlist. Although I don't add new music to playlists, I like to digest them as an album primarily, then my favorites will make their way to various playlists.

I meant that they are some songs that i even don't hear standalone but when i used to hear them, i would thought: "these are some really good DT songs".

[Rodni Demental]

Ah fair enough. XD It must have been the context of other conversations made me believe you were talking about not changing disks and so not playing FII as often for just 2 tracks or something along those lines. But I shouldn't make assumption out of context.

[Kotowboy]

After Octavarium - it seemed like they were gradually getting overall heavier and if MP had stayed then DT 11 probably would have been more of overlong

ANTR style 16 minute riff fests with solo trade-offs.

Of course there's no way to tell - just that - when MP left - that side of DT pretty much left too.

[BlobVanDam]

After Octavarium - it seemed like they were gradually getting overall heavier and if MP had stayed then DT 11 probably would have been more of overlong

ANTR style 16 minute riff fests with solo trade-offs.

Of course there's no way to tell - just that - when MP left - that side of DT pretty much left too.

I actually feel DT12 way overcompensated there, and is overly concise to the point of being very unsatisfying, like none of the ideas had time to breathe and develop. ADTOE was a pretty good balance though, but still had long tradeoffs and instrumental sections, and for me DT12 is too heavy overall, at least in regards to the big low power chords overwhelming the arrangements.

[Rodni Demental]

^^^ I get what you mean. DT12 is well composed and arranged but... Too many parts become a highlight moment of a song, and then it's gone forever. The 'cohesion' is a nice approach and is probably a different style to what the band has done in the past, but we have bits like the rushed ending of TLG, the criminally underused intro to BTV. Even False Awakening explores so many good ideas, but they go by too quickly. And I love Illumination Theory but it never keeps the same musical passage for very long, which works when a song is meant to take you on a journey I suppose (like this song, or perhaps the whole album), but sometimes leaves more to be desired. Haha, everything's never enough

[Kotowboy]

I agree that ADTOE had a better balance and let the songs take a natural course. None of those songs felt long or short.

They'll probably get back to that on the next one. I think DT12 was just an experiment to see if they could do short songs for a change.

Another album with ADTOE lengths would be fine next time.

Just please don't go back to 5 songs per album and 16 mins per song.

[Nearmyth]

I actually think some of DT's best music of all time comes from their 10-15 minute songs, give or take. In DT12 there wasn't any of that, and I feel like some of the songs could have been longer without sacrificing any attention or entertainment value.

Just as an example, I feel like The Looking Glass and Behind The Veil felt a bit rushed. I know the idea for DT12 was to make brief, shorter songs, and they definitely succeeded (I'm actually surprised at how well they were able to make these shorter songs feel grandiose on their own), but I also think their best musical abilities come when they elaborate on musical ideas. Not with songs like, say, ANTR or TMOLS, though I'm actually an avid lover of both of those. Songs like those are good when it isn't JUST longer ones like that (looking at you, Black Clouds).

I apologize for the somewhat meaningless rambling though Basically, long songs are good, just not too long/too many In my opinion.

I loved the longer songs on ADTOE though, they all felt very well balanced. The only problem with ADTOE is that it was pretty safe, but the songwriting could be filed under some of DT's best (yes, some of the songwriting on ADTOE is very similar to or taken directly from Images, but I just mean certain individual things. The instrumental section in Outcry, for example, is pure genius in my opinion.)

[Invisible]

^^^ I get what you mean. DT12 is well composed and arranged but... Too many parts become a highlight moment of a song, and then it's gone forever. The 'cohesion' is a nice approach and is probably a different style to what the band has done in the past, but we have bits like the rushed ending of TLG, the criminally underused intro to BTV. Even False Awakening explores so many good ideas, but they go by too quickly. And I love Illumination Theory but it never keeps the same musical passage for very long, which works when a song is meant to take you on a journey I suppose (like this song, or perhaps the whole album), but sometimes leaves more to be desired. Haha, everything's never enough

I actually see what you mean, the entrance of James on Behind The Veil is amazing, but then it changes to a different direction and it kind of takes time to get used to and you feel like it could have been great if they kept the other direction. But then again, that song is one of my favourites of the album so I can't complain at all.

It doesn't feel like it's overcompensating to me, I still think DT12 has one of the best compromises between short song but keeping them "progressive"(if we understand progressive as not fiting a normal structure, that is). And come to think of it, the songs are only short by DT standards, yo can't really call an album with 6-7 minute per song average "a short songs album".

On a maybe controversial side, I'm not very much a fan of Outcry or it's instrumental. And actually the only songs of ADTOE I listen to are OTBOA and Breaking All Illusions(sometimes Bridges and Far From Heaven). The other ones I can happily live without.

[emtee]

I still don't know what Chycki's mindset was on the last 2 albums. He's got a resume 10 feet long and these last DT albums should
have had top notch crystal clear sound across the spectrum. But that's not at all what we got. The point hit hard last night after
another attempt to listen to ADToE followed by Journey's reunion album Trail By Fire with Kevin Shirley. My god what a huge
difference in quality. Slag me if you want but I sincerely hope Chycki is NOT part of DT13.

[Shadow Ninja 2.0]

Wasn't he involved with Clockwork Angels as well? I wasn't super impressed with the sound on that one.

[BMcP_2112]

Systematic Chaos is in my Top 3 favorite albums. In the Presence of Enemies (both parts) is fucking dope.   

[TheGreatPretender]

Systematic Chaos is in my Top 3 favorite albums. In the Presence of Enemies (both parts) is fucking dope.   

Yeeah! 

[Lucidity]

After Octavarium - it seemed like they were gradually getting overall heavier and if MP had stayed then DT 11 probably would have been more of overlong

ANTR style 16 minute riff fests with solo trade-offs.

Of course there's no way to tell - just that - when MP left - that side of DT pretty much left too.

I actually feel DT12 way overcompensated there, and is overly concise to the point of being very unsatisfying, like none of the ideas had time to breathe and develop. ADTOE was a pretty good balance though, but still had long tradeoffs and instrumental sections, and for me DT12 is too heavy overall, at least in regards to the big low power chords overwhelming the arrangements.

I totally agree.

[Onno]

Systematic Chaos is in my Top 3 favorite albums. In the Presence of Enemies (both parts) is fucking dope.   

Welcome to the forums  Nice avatar!

[Kotowboy]

I still don't know what Chycki's mindset was on the last 2 albums. He's got a resume 10 feet long and these last DT albums should
have had top notch crystal clear sound across the spectrum. But that's not at all what we got. The point hit hard last night after
another attempt to listen to ADToE followed by Journey's reunion album Trail By Fire with Kevin Shirley. My god what a huge
difference in quality. Slag me if you want but I sincerely hope Chycki is NOT part of DT13.

Rich was only involved with the production on DT12 . He produced James' vocals on ADTOE.

Paul Northfield was the engineer on ADTOE and Andy Wallace "mixed" it.

[Onno]

Oh dear, then Chycki's responsible for the absolutely horrible vocal effects on both ADTOE and DT12 right? His mixing was *ok* on DT12, but the production wasn't. Hope DT13 will at least sound better sonically speaking.

[Grizz]

Yeah, bring Kevin Shirley back.






























And Desmond Child.

[Tis BOOLsheet]

I highly doubt that the sonic direction of DT12 was conceived by Richard Chycki

[cramx3]

I am fine with Kevin Shirley back if he can do to DT now what he did on FII and to Iron Maiden on Brace New World.  Both those albums sound amazing to my ears.  I do not have any problems with DT12 or Chycki so really as long as they keep a producer, then I am happy.

[Invisible]

I would also very much like having Shirley back. Not Desmond Child tough .

[SeRoX]

I think You Not Me would be a great live song.

Studio recording is kind of bad, I know that but it comes to me the nature of the song makes it well with live setting just because it's chrous.

[theseoafs]

I think You Not Me would be a great live song.

Studio recording is kind of bad, I know that but it comes to me the nature of the song makes it well with live setting just because it's chrous.

That kind of chorus is great when everybody's really into the chorus, and excited, and singing along... which I don't think would be the case if they played You Not Me at a DT show.

[SeRoX]

Yeah but you love this song or not, one thing that its chorus is pretty easily-remembered and short. I, for myself, don't love the song but when I listen FII as a whole I find myself singing that song, especially chorus. 

[BlobVanDam]

I think the chorus is the weakest part of the song, whether it's YOM or YNM. I prefer what leads up to it. With the reliance on layered harmonies, I think that chorus would fall very flat live.

[adastra]

There's nothing weak in You Not Me! Stellar song!

[BlobVanDam]

Stellar? Gotta love the diversity of DT's fans!

[GasparXR]

I like both versions of the song. I think the YNM chorus is better, however the transition into it is kind of awkward with the key change. The transition out of it is fine however. I really enjoy the bridge after the second chorus in YOM, that part really should have not been cut. I do however, prefer the shorter solo in YNM.