Author Topic: Your Controversial Opinions on DT  (Read 1028296 times)

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Offline BlobVanDam

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #3535 on: February 10, 2014, 12:54:48 AM »
JR is much more of a driving force than KM was, but I think they've got him on too tight a leash lately, which is why the last couple of albums aren't as interesting to me. SFAM and SDOIT have JR's mark all over them, and are the best for it.

I think taking the band out of the producer role would bring more balance back.
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Yep. I think the only party in the MP/DT situation that hasn't moved on is DTF.

Offline GasparXR

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #3536 on: February 10, 2014, 01:25:14 AM »
JR is much more of a driving force than KM was, but I think they've got him on too tight a leash lately, which is why the last couple of albums aren't as interesting to me. SFAM and SDOIT have JR's mark all over them, and are the best for it.

I think taking the band out of the producer role would bring more balance back.

I think it would be interesting if the entire band produced it. They all contribute to the writing, I think it would work out if they all actively crafted the direction and sound of the album as well.

Offline NotePad

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #3537 on: February 10, 2014, 02:12:44 AM »
JR is much more of a driving force than KM was, but I think they've got him on too tight a leash lately, which is why the last couple of albums aren't as interesting to me. SFAM and SDOIT have JR's mark all over them, and are the best for it.

I think taking the band out of the producer role would bring more balance back.

I think it would be interesting if the entire band produced it. They all contribute to the writing, I think it would work out if they all actively crafted the direction and sound of the album as well.

I liked this idea. But then I realized, don't they do this? Aren't they the type of band that writes together by jamming it out? But even so, i'm pretty sure tha since MP is gone JP is the main, errr, director of the music. I think JR needs to take a a step back actually. I'm more a fan on keyboards that are more background-ish and for atmosphere.

I also think it would be cool if they took a different approach to writing. At least try and see where it goes. Like maybe an album comprised of songs that are mostly individual compositions. Because they don't write this way at all anymore, we will never get another song like Space-Dye Vest, Wait For Sleep, Silent Man. These are some of their best IMHO.

Offline BlobVanDam

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #3538 on: February 10, 2014, 02:23:02 AM »
JR is much more of a driving force than KM was, but I think they've got him on too tight a leash lately, which is why the last couple of albums aren't as interesting to me. SFAM and SDOIT have JR's mark all over them, and are the best for it.

I think taking the band out of the producer role would bring more balance back.

I think it would be interesting if the entire band produced it. They all contribute to the writing, I think it would work out if they all actively crafted the direction and sound of the album as well.

I was actually really hoping they were going to take this direction when MP left.
Only King could mis-spell a LETTER.
Yep. I think the only party in the MP/DT situation that hasn't moved on is DTF.

Offline Sycsa

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #3539 on: February 10, 2014, 03:25:57 AM »
I'm not sure if this counts as controversial, but I think the Live at Luna Park version of The Dark Eternal night is a lot better than the original. Mainly due to my dislike of MP's vocals.
The only advantage it has over the original is that Jordan's Zen Riffer solo is a lot more appealing than randomly sliding with the Continuum all over the place, otherwise it's a mere shadow of the studio version: weak drums, bad sounding guitar and ridiculous triggered vocals.

JR is much more of a driving force than KM was, but I think they've got him on too tight a leash lately, which is why the last couple of albums aren't as interesting to me.
But ADTOE has more Jordan than anything ever before.


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Offline BlobVanDam

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #3540 on: February 10, 2014, 03:28:38 AM »
JR is much more of a driving force than KM was, but I think they've got him on too tight a leash lately, which is why the last couple of albums aren't as interesting to me.
But ADTOE has more Jordan than anything ever before.

It's not even in the ballpark of SFAM or SDOIT, and I'd say Octavarium has more too. I'd say ADTOE is middle of the pack at best for JR. I think it's mostly that he's just mixed a little bit clearer/louder than albums like BCASL or TOT, but it still feels like a very restrained JR compared to his first couple of DT albums.
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Yep. I think the only party in the MP/DT situation that hasn't moved on is DTF.

Offline nikatapi

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #3541 on: February 10, 2014, 03:42:32 AM »
I'll agree with Blob on JR's contributions after SDOIT. Personally i feel like for SFAM and SDOIT, they wanted to keep the LTE vibe with JR being an "equal" player with JP, while the songs were more rock than metal most of the time, and JR had a prominent role.

After TOT (excluding Octavarium which has great JR moments) it seems like DT have made their perception of the "DT sound" narrower in terms of directions, mainly focusing on guitar riffing and metal sound. This seems to have an influence on how much JR is able to contribute with melodic stuff, more piano etc. The last album solidified my impression, being a mostly guitar driven metal album with progressive elements.

If you listened to LMR, it is obvious that JR has some incredible ideas, and can successfully add another dimension to a fairly simple melody-orchestration. Unfortunately it seems to me that he is comfortable with his current role in DT, and he is not looking to be completely artistically expressed through the band's albums.

I'm sure i'm exaggerating, but to me it seems like DT is JR's daily job and a way to keep income coming, but he is not putting 100% into the songs. Maybe he doesn't want to argue with the other members for the direction of the sound, but i still feel he remains underutilized and he is ok with that, because "it's what fits into the DT sound the fans love".



Offline RodrigoAltaf

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #3542 on: February 10, 2014, 04:20:26 AM »
nikatapi and BlobVanDam = right on the money.

Offline Onno

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #3543 on: February 10, 2014, 04:35:14 AM »
^pretty much, yeah.

Offline 425

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #3544 on: February 10, 2014, 04:45:15 AM »
Yeah, I agree with those two as well. And it's a shame because probably a majority of those DT moments when I think "wow, that's really inventive and awesome" are created by Jordan (TDOE ragtime, BTL horns, ES wtf break, SDOIT Overture, BF piano break, 8VM intro, etc). And now on DT12 the only thing he does like that is the BTV intro, and is for the most part behind the scenes for the rest of the album. DT's future releases badly need more Jordan.
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Offline BlobVanDam

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #3545 on: February 10, 2014, 04:52:49 AM »
I'll agree with Blob on JR's contributions after SDOIT. Personally i feel like for SFAM and SDOIT, they wanted to keep the LTE vibe with JR being an "equal" player with JP, while the songs were more rock than metal most of the time, and JR had a prominent role.

After TOT (excluding Octavarium which has great JR moments) it seems like DT have made their perception of the "DT sound" narrower in terms of directions, mainly focusing on guitar riffing and metal sound. This seems to have an influence on how much JR is able to contribute with melodic stuff, more piano etc. The last album solidified my impression, being a mostly guitar driven metal album with progressive elements.

If you listened to LMR, it is obvious that JR has some incredible ideas, and can successfully add another dimension to a fairly simple melody-orchestration. Unfortunately it seems to me that he is comfortable with his current role in DT, and he is not looking to be completely artistically expressed through the band's albums.

Agreed with all. Even though LMR was a little too out there for me musically, it had those parts where I hear the JR of LTE/SFAM, and I really miss that.
That's not to say he hasn't had great contributions to recent albums, because he certainly has, but I feel like DT don't explore the more experimental stuff as they did when JR first joined. It oftens feels more like it's guitar driven music, with JR adding something behind it, rather than keys and guitars being of equal importance to the arrangement, as it does on my favourite DT albums (including the pre-JR stuff).
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Yep. I think the only party in the MP/DT situation that hasn't moved on is DTF.

Offline mikeyd23

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #3546 on: February 10, 2014, 07:31:54 AM »
Jumping back to what was mentioned earlier in regards to JP and JR co-producing future DT records together, similar to how MP and JP did, I think it would fix some problems sonically, but not all the problems.

I agree that JR has seemed slightly "restrained" on the last few records, so adding him as a co-producer would certainly fix that in many ways, but it wouldn't fix the worst sonic issue (IMO) of JP produced albums: the drum sound.  The fact of the matter is that when MP was co-producing, the drums sounded great, and since he has left, they haven't.  Which is actually sort of funny because back when MP left my biggest concern was if DT would be able to find another great drummer that could play all of MP's parts and create great new parts on future DT music, and then found that in MM.  I never even worried about the studio drum sound suffering until ADTOE was released. 

So I think adding JR as a producer would help, but to solve all the sonic issues, a different engineer would need to be brought in that has a proven track record of getting great drum sounds.  I actually like a lot of what Rich did on DT12, but that drum sound just doesn't work for me.  Realistically though, it seems that DT was extremely happy with Rich, so if I had to guess, I'd say that he will be back at the controls for DT13...


Offline BlobVanDam

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #3547 on: February 10, 2014, 07:36:31 AM »
I would love them to get Kevin Shirley again. I don't know if there was some reason they stopped using him that might prevent them using him again (such as scheduling or whatever), but that would be the best case for me. He could get MM's kit sounding incredible.
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Yep. I think the only party in the MP/DT situation that hasn't moved on is DTF.

Offline mikeyd23

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #3548 on: February 10, 2014, 07:48:52 AM »
I would love them to get Kevin Shirley again. I don't know if there was some reason they stopped using him that might prevent them using him again (such as scheduling or whatever), but that would be the best case for me. He could get MM's kit sounding incredible.

Yep, I totally agree... Shirley would get MM's kit sounding great and make sure each instrument had enough space in the mix.

Offline Grizz

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #3549 on: February 10, 2014, 06:37:08 PM »
I think we need more Jordan, so long as it isn't ARoP/TTTSTA-style wankery
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Offline TheGreatPretender

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #3550 on: February 10, 2014, 07:04:01 PM »
So I was thinking about this today... And while there are some parts of The Great Debate that I do like, all in all, I would rather listen to Nickelback, than I would to The Great Debate.
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Offline BlobVanDam

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #3551 on: February 10, 2014, 07:06:03 PM »
So I was thinking about this today... And while there are some parts of The Great Debate that I do like, all in all, I would rather listen to Nickelback, than I would to The Great Debate.

Really? Nickelback? Not that I'm just hating on Nickelback here, but while TGD is my least favourite song on the album, there's still a lot more interesting stuff going on there than your average formulaic Nickelback tune. You must be trolling. :biggrin:
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Yep. I think the only party in the MP/DT situation that hasn't moved on is DTF.

Offline ThatOneGuy2112

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #3552 on: February 10, 2014, 07:08:20 PM »
So I was thinking about this today... And while there are some parts of The Great Debate that I do like, all in all, I would rather listen to Nickelback, than I would to The Great Debate.

Really? Nickelback? Not that I'm just hating on Nickelback here, but while TGD is my least favourite song on the album, there's still a lot more interesting stuff going on there than your average formulaic Nickelback tune. You must be trolling. :biggrin:

I don't even think Nickleback is the worst act in music out there like many people do, but even I was thinking this. :lol

Offline TheGreatPretender

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #3553 on: February 10, 2014, 07:11:29 PM »
Really? Nickelback? Not that I'm just hating on Nickelback here, but while TGD is my least favourite song on the album, there's still a lot more interesting stuff going on there than your average formulaic Nickelback tune. You must be trolling. :biggrin:

Well, not really. I mean, I know this opinion would probably make a lot of people  :censored, but yeah, while TGD has some interesting parts, you have to sit through a lot of very long and uninteresting parts to get to them. And the interesting parts don't pay off nearly enough to justify sitting through the boring ones.
With Nickelback, you put it on, you get some decent riffs with very little nonsense, so all in all, it's a more enjoyable listening experience for me.
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Offline ThatOneGuy2112

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #3554 on: February 10, 2014, 07:15:59 PM »
TGD isn't necessarily consistently amazing throughout, and it is my least favorite from Six Degrees (a near perfect album IMO), but I wouldn't ever pass up listening to any section from it in favor of any Nickleback song I've heard.

Two different styles of music, yes. But this IS Nickleback we're talking here.

Offline BlobVanDam

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #3555 on: February 10, 2014, 07:16:23 PM »
Really? Nickelback? Not that I'm just hating on Nickelback here, but while TGD is my least favourite song on the album, there's still a lot more interesting stuff going on there than your average formulaic Nickelback tune. You must be trolling. :biggrin:

Well, not really. I mean, I know this opinion would probably make a lot of people  :censored, but yeah, while TGD has some interesting parts, you have to sit through a lot of very long and uninteresting parts to get to them. And the interesting parts don't pay off nearly enough to justify sitting through the boring ones.
With Nickelback, you put it on, you get some decent riffs with very little nonsense, so all in all, it's a more enjoyable listening experience for me.

I understand the sentiment fully, as I'm much more into the the 4 minute standard song structure kind of music than the slow proggy buildup kind of song, but as soon as you say something like that on a DT forum, about Nickelback of all bands, you can see why people are going to assume it's a troll automatically. :lol

I actually like the whole buildup of TGD now, but it held me back getting into the song for a long time, and it's still not a favourite song.
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Yep. I think the only party in the MP/DT situation that hasn't moved on is DTF.

Offline TheGreatPretender

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #3556 on: February 10, 2014, 07:17:26 PM »
Yes, but that's why I posted it in this thread!  ;D
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Offline BlobVanDam

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #3557 on: February 10, 2014, 07:19:02 PM »
Yes, but that's why I posted it in this thread!  ;D

In that case, it was a rousing success! Well played, sir.

Maybe I should make a list of DT songs that I like less than Nickelback, but I'm not sure the forum could take it. :neverusethis:
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Yep. I think the only party in the MP/DT situation that hasn't moved on is DTF.

Offline TheGreatPretender

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #3558 on: February 10, 2014, 07:35:28 PM »
Oh, but I really want to see this list!
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Offline bl5150

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #3559 on: February 10, 2014, 07:39:24 PM »
If you said you like Nickelback better than Scarred it wouldn't even raise an eyebrow at this stage Blob  :D
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Offline 425

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #3560 on: February 10, 2014, 07:39:38 PM »
So I was thinking about this today... And while there are some parts of The Great Debate that I do like, all in all, I would rather listen to Nickelback, than I would to The Great Debate.

I have no idea what Nickleback even sounds like, actually. But I would certainly rather listen to good pop-rock than The Great Debate. I don't even have a laundry list of things I don't like about it, I just don't really like too much about it. It's not even a bad song, in fact, it's probably a fairly good one, but it's also a 14-minute song with just no parts that are really that memorable to me at all. Honestly, I'm trying to hear it in my head right now and all I'm capable of hearing are the building drum intro and, strangely, the chorus to Never Enough (which, while I'm in this thread and talking about these songs, I like far more than The Great Debate).

Okay, finally grabbed the chorus to The Great Debate. But it took embarrassingly long given how many times I've heard that song.
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Offline BlobVanDam

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #3561 on: February 10, 2014, 07:40:11 PM »
If you said you like Nickelback better than Scarred it wouldn't even raise an eyebrow at this stage Blob  :D

Then my work here is done. :hat
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Yep. I think the only party in the MP/DT situation that hasn't moved on is DTF.

Offline Outcrier

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #3562 on: February 10, 2014, 08:27:56 PM »
It's not even a bad song, in fact, it's probably a fairly good one, but it's also a 14-minute song with just no parts that are really that memorable to me at all. Honestly, I'm trying to hear it in my head right now and all I'm capable of hearing are the building drum intro and, strangely, the chorus to Never Enough (which, while I'm in this thread and talking about these songs, I like far more than The Great Debate).

Really? There are some very catchy vocal melodies on TGD during the "first phase" of the song.
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Offline JayOctavarium

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #3563 on: February 10, 2014, 09:00:25 PM »
I enjoy TGD but all I can think of when I think of it is "TUUUURN TOOOO THE RIIIIIIGHT!" from the theoretical Dream Theater GPS unit I hope to one day own.
I just don't understand what they were trying to achieve with any part of the song, either individually or as a whole. You know what? It's the Platypus of Dream Theater songs. That bill doesn't go with that tail, or that strange little furry body, or those webbed feet, and oh god why does it have venomous spurs!? And then you find out it lays eggs too. The difference is that the Platypus is somehow functional despite being a crazy mishmash or leftover animal pieces

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Offline GasparXR

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #3564 on: February 10, 2014, 09:21:29 PM »
I enjoy TGD but all I can think of when I think of it is "TUUUURN TOOOO THE RIIIIIIGHT!" from the theoretical Dream Theater GPS unit I hope to one day own.

:rollin

Offline ?

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #3565 on: February 11, 2014, 12:51:18 AM »
I enjoy TGD but all I can think of when I think of it is "TUUUURN TOOOO THE RIIIIIIGHT!" from the theoretical Dream Theater GPS unit I hope to one day own.
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Offline puppyonacid

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #3566 on: February 11, 2014, 02:52:27 AM »
Listening to DT12 on the way to work this morning.

Still not liking the drum sound.

I also realised that it is the worst sound JP has ever committed to a DT release IMO. With all the expensive, top notch equipment he has at his disposal I just think the guitar sounds awful. Somehow he manages to get the solos sounding like he's playing a strat and it has that malmsteeny tone. Nothing wrong with that tone per se, but he's using guitars stocked with really good humbucking pickups.

But it strikes me most on the intro to The Looking Glass. I'm sorry but it sounds overly compressed and like a cheap Peavey solid state amp.
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Online Zydar

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #3567 on: February 11, 2014, 03:00:56 AM »
I enjoy TGD but all I can think of when I think of it is "TUUUURN TOOOO THE RIIIIIIGHT!" from the theoretical Dream Theater GPS unit I hope to one day own.

haha :lol

Someone need to make this. Blob!

Offline Rodni Demental

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #3568 on: February 11, 2014, 04:29:51 AM »
I also think it would be cool if they took a different approach to writing. At least try and see where it goes. Like maybe an album comprised of songs that are mostly individual compositions. Because they don't write this way at all anymore, we will never get another song like Space-Dye Vest, Wait For Sleep, Silent Man. These are some of their best IMHO.

Beneath The Surface, and to some degree, Along For The Ride were more written in this way as far as we're aware so I wouldn't say they've completely abandoned the more individual writing approach. Besides, they seem like the kind of musicians that already have a surplus of ideas cooked up that when they get together songs just kinda happen.

That being said, I would actually be really curious to see DT do something like what Periphery did with their recent Clear EP which was an experient to explore the bands writing styles in that each track was composed (and possibly produced?) by each individual band member with an overture to establish and connect the different themes. Making for some fairly interesting and unique composition and arrangements.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2014, 04:37:02 AM by Rodni Demental »

Offline Perpetual Change

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #3569 on: February 11, 2014, 04:42:53 AM »
Pretty sure JP is the only guy who usually brings full songs to the table.