Your Controversial Opinions on DT

[TheGreatPretender]

We must have 4 very, very different CDs then. You'd need to split the finest of hairs in order to call those albums "extremely diverse and different from one another".

Again, depends on compared to what. I think SDOIT, TOT, and 8VM are much more similar to one another than the RR albums. Now, if you compare the RR albums to I&W, Awake, FII and SFAM, then yeah, compared to those 4, RR albums are very similar.

[orcus116]

I think Six Degrees kind of stands on its own so I wouldn't put it with TOT or even Octavarium.

[TheGreatPretender]

I think Six Degrees kind of stands on its own so I wouldn't put it with TOT or even Octavarium.

Fair enough, but I disagree. And I happen to think that SC stands on its own, so I wouldn't put it with any of the other RR albums.

[Shadow Ninja 2.0]

I think DT has always done a good job of making albums that sound different from each other, but never straying too far from their formula. It seems like a winning strategy.

[TheGreatPretender]

I think DT has always done a good job of making albums that sound different from each other, but never straying too far from their formula. It seems like a winning strategy.

Or this. Definitely this. I mean, if I listen to one album after another, I can easily point out what makes every album unique and what elements they possess that the others don't.

[jakepriest]

Or this. Definitely this. I mean, if I listen to one album after another, I can easily point out what makes every album unique and what elements they possess that the others don't.

The only unique things on DT12 are the horrible mixing and production.

[TheGreatPretender]

The only unique things on DT12 are the horrible mixing and production.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V3y3QoFnqZc

[Nearmyth]

We must have 4 very, very different CDs then. You'd need to split the finest of hairs in order to call those albums "extremely diverse and different from one another".

Again, depends on compared to what. I think SDOIT, TOT, and 8VM are much more similar to one another than the RR albums. Now, if you compare the RR albums to I&W, Awake, FII and SFAM, then yeah, compared to those 4, RR albums are very similar.

I must respectfully disagree and share the popular(?) opinion that SDOIT, TOT, and 8VM are absolutely nothing like each other. At least, I find plenty more similarities between SC and BC&SL than with those 3. Though I do think that compared to DT's first 4 albums, SFAM through DT12 all share a similar "modern DT"-esque vein.

[TheGreatPretender]

I must respectfully disagree and share the popular(?) opinion that SDOIT, TOT, and 8VM are absolutely nothing like each other. At least, I find plenty more similarities between SC and BC&SL than with those 3.

And you're well within your rights to disagree.
But let me ask you, honestly, if you have not heard the three albums at all, and you listened to The Glass Prison, Endless Sacrifice and The Root of All Evil for the first time, would you be able to tell they're from different albums? And for the purpose of the argument, let's say you heard the live versions from the same concert, so there were no differences in compression, mastering, etc.
And if so, what makes the three so stylistically different that you'd be able to tell they're not from the same recording sessions?

Though I do think that compared to DT's first 4 albums, SFAM through DT12 all share a similar "modern DT"-esque vein.

Is that vein named Jordan Rudess? 

[orcus116]

I must respectfully disagree and share the popular(?) opinion that SDOIT, TOT, and 8VM are absolutely nothing like each other. At least, I find plenty more similarities between SC and BC&SL than with those 3.

And you're well within your rights to disagree.
But let me ask you, honestly, if you have not heard the three albums at all, and you listened to The Glass Prison, Endless Sacrifice and The Root of All Evil for the first time, would you be able to tell they're from different albums? And for the purpose of the argument, let's say you heard the live versions from the same concert, so there were no differences in compression, mastering, etc.
And if so, what makes the three so stylistically different that you'd be able to tell they're not from the same recording sessions?

That's quite the cherry picking there. Yes, TOT is a one-dimensional album but there are a multitude of songs on Six Degrees and Octavarium that sound nothing like one another. In fact, Six Degrees is quite a diverse album in its own right.

[TheGreatPretender]

In fact, Six Degrees is quite a diverse album in its own right.

Well, that's part of my point exactly. SDOIT and Octavarium (IMO) are both extremely diverse albums, and most of the songs on them are nothing like one another. So because of that, the only thing I can possibly use to link them is the instrument tone, JLB's timbre and range, and the kinds of sounds that JR uses. And in my opinion those factors are all very similar on the three albums, I could be wrong, but if someone tried to explain to me how JP's guitar tone differs from one to another, then I'm sure they could also easily explain to me how his guitar tone differs on the RR albums as well.
Anyway, point is, because DT's music is diverse in general, I wouldn't be at all surprised to find Misunderstood, Disappear, These Walls and Sacrificed Sons, As I am and Endless Sacrifice on one album, even thought they're all vastly different from one another.

[Nearmyth]

And you're well within your rights to disagree.
But let me ask you, honestly, if you have not heard the three albums at all, and you listened to The Glass Prison, Endless Sacrifice and The Root of All Evil for the first time, would you be able to tell they're from different albums? And for the purpose of the argument, let's say you heard the live versions from the same concert, so there were no differences in compression, mastering, etc.
And if so, what makes the three so stylistically different that you'd be able to tell they're not from the same recording sessions?

For one thing, I think that their song structure, production, and melodies are all quite different from each other. Put those three together and we have another SDOIT on our hands And think of it vice versa, The Glass Prison would sound quite strange on 8VM, as strange as how I Walk Beside You would sound on ToT. But this is a nitpicky way of thinking.  You can use this nitpicky way of thinking with just about every DT album, though; as stated by Orcus, DT is very diverse, and I'd say the only album they have where the style is limited would be ToT.

Is that vein named Jordan Rudess? 

  Didn't think of it that way, I suppose you're right!

[orcus116]

To be fair to TGP, I'm actually arguing that the latest 4 albums are not really that diverse and have interchangeable songs. I just disagreed about Six Degrees since there is some style hopping between all of the tracks, although I believe that is the last album they've done that has done that.

[Nearmyth]

I do agree with that. SDOIT is the only album imo where there isn't really a distinct "style."

[TheGreatPretender]

For one thing, I think that their song structure, production, and melodies are all quite different from each other. Put those three together and we have another SDOIT on our hands And think of it vice versa, The Glass Prison would sound quite strange on 8VM, as strange as how I Walk Beside You would sound on ToT. But this is a nitpicky way of thinking.  You can use this nitpicky way of thinking with just about every DT album, though; as stated by Orcus, DT is very diverse, and I'd say the only album they have where the style is limited would be ToT.

Honestly, I don't think The Glass Prison actually sounds quite strange on SDOIT. To me, it really stands out like a sore thumb and does not indicate the album's overal sound at all. It would sound a lot more natural on 8VM or especially TOT, if you ask me. Unless you're counting the whole Octave theme, then yeah, maybe it starts on a different root note that doesn't fit into the album, etc. But nuggets aside, I think it's stylistically fairly consistent with TROAE or Panic Attack.

And the thing about song structure and melodies, again, DT being as diverse as they are, even within SDOIT and 8VM, the song structure and melodies are so diverse just within those albums, that I honestly wouldn't be able to tell you which song belongs where, if I had heard them for the first time.

When I first bought Octavarium and listened to These Walls and Never Enough (the only two songs I haven't heard from it at that point) I was VERY surprised. They sounded nothing like what I expected, based on what I've heard of Octavarium at that point.

So yeah, it's not that SDOIT TOT and 8VM sound the same, overall (although I do think that the heavy songs on SDOIT and 8VM sound stylistically consistent with TOT), it's that SDOIT and 8VM are both so diverse that personally, I would not be able to guess which song belonged on which album. I might make a couple right guesses, but I'd also mix up a LOT of them.

[Outcrier]

Maybe those people are the ones who lost their passion and enthusiasm for the band, and the only reason they still love I&W, Awake and all the classics is because they grew up with those albums. So it's nostalgia, sentimental connection due to personal life experiences of having grown up with that music. Which is okay, but they say that DT's current stuff is not as good as I&W or Awake, and maybe it is, maybe it isn't. But I think that no matter what DT puts out, no matter how good the music is, or how energetic the band is, to those people, nothing will ever be as good as the classics and nothing will ever make the band feel fresh and enthusiastic again. Sorry guys, but my humble controversial theory is that if anyone's lost the magic, it's you.

I vastly disagree with this, for me, there's a big, VERY big noticeable difference in songwriting if i compare an album like Images to one of the new albums.

[TheGreatPretender]

I vastly disagree with this, for me, there's a big, VERY big noticeable difference in songwriting if i compare an album like Images to one of the new albums.

Allow me to rephrase myself a little.

What would it be like if you never heard I&W (or whatever album made you fall in love with DT)? Like, for me, I love Systematic Chaos. It was the second DT album I ever heard and it played a large role in why I fell in love with the band.
But what if I haven't heard it at the time? I actually bought it on a whim, so what if I happened to pick a different DT album, and haven't had a chance to listen to SC until now? Would I like it nearly as much? I want to say yes, but the truth is, maybe I would, but maybe I wouldn't. When I first listened to and fell in love with the album, I was at a different place in life, different place musically, different state of maturity, etc. So if I had heard SC for the first time now, considering how much I've grown since then, and how much new music I've discovered through all these years, for all I know, SC wouldn't have nearly as much of an impact on me, and maybe I'd consider it an inferior album like a lot of other people here. But it's all completely hypothetical, and I honestly can't give you a definitive answer.
So for someone who's been a fan of I&W for decades, what if they ended up missing out on it somehow, and only heard it for the first time today? Would they still love it as much? I'm sorry, but if anyone tried to give me a 100% definitive answer, it would be baseless, because they hadn't lived out that particular hypothetical situation. Especially if it's their favorite album, because if that's the case, then it's safe to say that it had a big impact on the evolution of their musical tastes. So what would their musical tastes evolve like had they not grown up with the album?
There really is no way of knowing for sure.

And this also brings me to my "it's you" comment. I had a very nice talk with Jaffa about this (although I think it frustrated the hell out of him  ). So let me reiterate some of that. It's not about overanalyzing the songwriting, it's about simplifying it to "How does this music make me feel?" and the answer to that can't be quantified. I can explain to you why I love such and such song, and even if you listen to and comprehend all my reasons, chances are, they're not going to change your opinion of the song. I can tell you, "When I hear this song, it makes me tear up, but also makes me smile, it makes me melancholy, but gives me boundless energy at the same time," and even though you might be familiar with the feeling, if you don't associate the feeling with that song, chances are, that's not about to change.
How we experience something comes from within us, not from the absolute existence of the given music. That's why there are polarizing opinions about it. Unless there's a 100% unanimous opinion about something, then it's not absolute. There might be people out there who think DT12 is garbage, and they can't even imagine comparing it to Images and Words. But as long as there are people who love DT12, and who consider it a great album, and who think it's a breath of fresh air and an album they've been waiting for since SDOIT (just some of the opinions I've heard), then their opinions are just as valid. And if they like it more than I&W, that's just as valid. It's all the same music, but different people feel differently about it. So what I'm saying is that our passion and enthusiasm (or lack of if that's the case) for this band comes not from the band or the music they write. That passion, that magic (or lack there of) comes from within the fan.
At least, that's what I believe. If you don't feel the same way, if you don't share that philosophy, well, I'm not expecting to change your opinion. I'm merely sharing mine. 

[Nearmyth]

Honestly, I don't think The Glass Prison actually sounds quite strange on SDOIT. To me, it really stands out like a sore thumb and does not indicate the album's overal sound at all. It would sound a lot more natural on 8VM or especially TOT, if you ask me. Unless you're counting the whole Octave theme, then yeah, maybe it starts on a different root note that doesn't fit into the album, etc. But nuggets aside, I think it's stylistically fairly consistent with TROAE or Panic Attack.

And the thing about song structure and melodies, again, DT being as diverse as they are, even within SDOIT and 8VM, the song structure and melodies are so diverse just within those albums, that I honestly wouldn't be able to tell you which song belongs where, if I had heard them for the first time.

When I first bought Octavarium and listened to These Walls and Never Enough (the only two songs I haven't heard from it at that point) I was VERY surprised. They sounded nothing like what I expected, based on what I've heard of Octavarium at that point.

So yeah, it's not that SDOIT TOT and 8VM sound the same, overall (although I do think that the heavy songs on SDOIT and 8VM sound stylistically consistent with TOT), it's that SDOIT and 8VM are both so diverse that personally, I would not be able to guess which song belonged on which album. I might make a couple right guesses, but I'd also mix up a LOT of them.

Well, I guess in the end we just have very different opinions on those albums 
But now I do see where you're coming from; they are both very diverse albums and I could see them being intertwined in one another. Perhaps it's the songwriting that makes the difference for me, 8VM's songwriting seems very mainstream (or "accessible," for lack of better words), compared to SDOIT. That's just what I think though.

What would it be like if you never heard I&W (or whatever album made you fall in love with DT)? Like, for me, I love Systematic Chaos. It was the second DT album I ever heard and it played a large role in why I fell in love with the band.
But what if I haven't heard it at the time? I actually bought it on a whim, so what if I happened to pick a different DT album, and haven't had a chance to listen to SC until now? Would I like it nearly as much? I want to say yes, but the truth is, maybe I would, but maybe I wouldn't...

...So for someone who's been a fan of I&W for decades, what if they ended up missing out on it somehow, and only heard it for the first time today? Would they still love it as much? I'm sorry, but if anyone tried to give me a 100% definitive answer, it would be baseless, because they hadn't lived out that particular hypothetical situation. Especially if it's their favorite album, because if that's the case, then it's safe to say that it had a big impact on the evolution of their musical tastes. So what would their musical tastes evolve like had they not grown up with the album?
There really is no way of knowing for sure.

Also, forgive me if I misinterpret what you are saying here, but for the sake of argument, are you saying that if someone who was a DT fan for years just listened to I&W today, they wouldn't rank it very high? Or are you simply comparing this to someone who had listened to I&W from the very beginning, and had that nostalgic connection ? I&W was one of the last DT albums I got into, and I think it's in their top 3 albums.

[TheGreatPretender]

Well, I guess in the end we just have very different opinions on those albums 
But now I do see where you're coming from; they are both very diverse albums and I could see them being intertwined in one another. Perhaps it's the songwriting that makes the difference for me, 8VM's songwriting seems very mainstream (or "accessible," for lack of better words), compared to SDOIT. That's just what I think though.

Ultimately, I think what unifies the three albums for me is partially the production and partially the musicianship. The heavy songs might be heavy and angry, but unlike most Metal bands out there, DT's heavy stuff still retained a sense of warmth, I think thanks to JP's guitar tone. A lot of Metal in the 2000s had a very cold and electric (for the lack of a better term) sound, but JP's guitar tone, the softness of his picking, kept the overall feeling very warm.
The other part is just how they played. The types of riffs, the types of unison sections, the style of keyboard solos. Of course, it doesn't apply to every song on all three albums, there are certain songs that have their intricacies. But I guess another way to say it is that I think those three albums have a lot more in common with one another, than they do with the rest of the band's discography.

[KevShmev]

Another thing is while I respect them as musicians, for as talented and they are they never seem to really push themselves. If you had a talent like that wouldn't you always want to be exploring and pushing the boundaries of what your instrument could do?

I am not sure I agree with this, as that would result in the band writing songs around playing, instead of focusing on melodies and structure.  Of course, I am sure many of their songs are built around a jam of them playing their asses off, but I don't want to see them have Mangini play a nutty drum part and write a song around it.  I'd rather they write the songs first and then see how their nutty playing can fit into them.  We know DT can play, but all of that playing doesn't mean much in you put it in the middle of songs that aren't that good. 

I think DT has always done a good job of making albums that sound different from each other, but never straying too far from their formula. It seems like a winning strategy.

I think this is a good way to put it.  For example, if you look at DT12, songs like Surrender to Reason and The Bigger Picture sound fairly unique for them (find me other DT songs that sound a lot like either), but they still sound very much like Dream Theater.

[TheGreatPretender]

I think this is a good way to put it.  For example, if you look at DT12, songs like Surrender to Reason and The Bigger Picture sound fairly unique for them (find me other DT songs that sound a lot like either), but they still sound very much like Dream Theater.

DT definitely has a unique style that's not extremely difficult to recognize. I mean, the way JP plays his solos, the way JR plays his fast solos, or even his fast paced style of melodic piano solos. I don't necessarily think it's a bad thing. In fact, I can't think of very many musicians that don't have a signature sound. Even a diverse band like Queen, even though they did change their sound quite a bit and tried several different styles, when you hear a Brian May guitar solo, you damn well know it's a Brian May guitar solo, and it's usually absolutely rockin'!

Not sure if when you said, "they still sound very much like Dream Theater" you meant that in a good way or a bad way, but I definitely don't think it's a bad thing.

[KevShmev]

What I meant is that Dream Theater, for the most part, has a recognizable style and formula, so even when they do songs that are a bit different for them (like those DT12 songs, or The Dark Eternal Night, or whatever), they still have that Dream Theater stamp.  That is generally a good thing, although there are times where I'd love to see them totally go out of their comfort zone, but they really aren't that kind of band, a few glaring exceptions notwithstanding.

[Perpetual Change]

What I meant is that Dream Theater, for the most part, has a recognizable style and formula, so even when they do songs that are a bit different for them (like those DT12 songs, or The Dark Eternal Night, or whatever), they still have that Dream Theater stamp.  That is generally a good thing, although there are times where I'd love to see them totally go out of their comfort zone, but they really aren't that kind of band, a few glaring exceptions notwithstanding.

Have you listened to Levin, Minneman, Rudess Kev? I love it, and I'm kinda surprised to see how little buzz it's generating, though not really surprised given the very stubborn way it was released.

[KevShmev]

Not yet.  It is on my list, though.

[TheGreatPretender]

What I meant is that Dream Theater, for the most part, has a recognizable style and formula, so even when they do songs that are a bit different for them (like those DT12 songs, or The Dark Eternal Night, or whatever), they still have that Dream Theater stamp.  That is generally a good thing, although there are times where I'd love to see them totally go out of their comfort zone, but they really aren't that kind of band, a few glaring exceptions notwithstanding.

Yeah, it would be nice if they did something really different a la Lines In The Sand, but if "different" meant something simple with little of their well known intricate musicianship, I'd probably be disappointed. I mean, the occasional Solitary Shell is okay, but a whole album like that... No.

[Outcrier]

It's not about overanalyzing the songwriting, it's about simplifying it to "How does this music make me feel?" and the answer to that can't be quantified.

This is going nowhere then 

I can agree a bit with what you said but not 100% because the two things already happened with me anyway.

[TheGreatPretender]

This is going nowhere then 

Yeah, that's essentially it. I mean, you can tell me about how the songwriting style has changed, and I would certainly be interested in reading all about it (assuming it's something I don't already know). It would open my mind a little, and I'd understand it a little better in terms of composition. But it's really not going to make me like I&W any more than I already do, nor will it make me appreciate DT12 any less.

[orcus116]

Another thing is while I respect them as musicians, for as talented and they are they never seem to really push themselves. If you had a talent like that wouldn't you always want to be exploring and pushing the boundaries of what your instrument could do?

I am not sure I agree with this, as that would result in the band writing songs around playing, instead of focusing on melodies and structure.  Of course, I am sure many of their songs are built around a jam of them playing their asses off, but I don't want to see them have Mangini play a nutty drum part and write a song around it.  I'd rather they write the songs first and then see how their nutty playing can fit into them.  We know DT can play, but all of that playing doesn't mean much in you put it in the middle of songs that aren't that good. 

That's not quite what I was getting out. I would like to see them use their talent intelligently to see if they could create something completely new sounding. What that is, I dunno but they seem to have the ability to really expand on what they do and just...don't. But just for starters, a different approach to their songwriting would be interesting to see for now.

[TheGreatPretender]

That's not quite what I was getting out. I would like to see them use their talent intelligently to see if they could create something completely new sounding. What that is, I dunno but they seem to have the ability to really expand on what they do and just...don't. But just for starters, a different approach to their songwriting would be interesting to see for now.

Well, maybe they'll explore those kinds of things through side projects. Where's that new JP solo album we were promised?

[Outcrier]

Another thing is while I respect them as musicians, for as talented and they are they never seem to really push themselves. If you had a talent like that wouldn't you always want to be exploring and pushing the boundaries of what your instrument could do?

I am not sure I agree with this, as that would result in the band writing songs around playing, instead of focusing on melodies and structure.  Of course, I am sure many of their songs are built around a jam of them playing their asses off, but I don't want to see them have Mangini play a nutty drum part and write a song around it.  I'd rather they write the songs first and then see how their nutty playing can fit into them.  We know DT can play, but all of that playing doesn't mean much in you put it in the middle of songs that aren't that good. 

That's not quite what I was getting out. I would like to see them use their talent intelligently to see if they could create something completely new sounding. What that is, I dunno but they seem to have the ability to really expand on what they do and just...don't. But just for starters, a different approach to their songwriting would be interesting to see for now.

You're wanting too much then.

[rumborak]

I find this kinda strange. Excluding the last album, do you think DT just wrote naturally always wound up writing just under 80 minutes of music?

I find it very hard to believe they ever trim anything down.

I do wonder just how meticulously they plan out their songs. I mean, to they actually go, "Well, what we have now ends up to 72 minutes, our final song should be one of our simple 6 - 7 minute songs."

In a recent interview, I think it was either JP or JR who alluded to exactly that practice. So, while DT might reject certain riffs, they however also write to the clock.

[The Stray Seed]

I'm kind of in the middle. I'd like them to branch out from "typical" DT, but at the same time I still enjoy pretty much all of their music.

+1

And I'd like to express my appreciation for TheGreatPretender's theory about nostalgia, there's truth in it.

[Rodni Demental]

How we experience something comes from within us, not from the absolute existence of the given music. That's why there are polarizing opinions about it. Unless there's a 100% unanimous opinion about something, then it's not absolute.

So what I'm saying is that our passion and enthusiasm (or lack of if that's the case) for this band comes not from the band or the music they write. That passion, that magic (or lack there of) comes from within the fan.
At least, that's what I believe. If you don't feel the same way, if you don't share that philosophy, well, I'm not expecting to change your opinion. I'm merely sharing mine. 

I think you just established a fairly solid foundation for not only giving validity to any opinion, but also a very fair perspective on the externalisation of our emotions (excitement/fear/love/hate) in that we create how we feel about it personally by how we choose to respond to a neutral circumstance. In that respect, Dream Theaters music can have as much built in meaning as they can possibly fit, but really for us, it's just a clean slate of neutrally meaningless sounds until we connect with it in our own unique experience, and give it our own meaning.

Also, I think with in the framework of music that is considered to be "Dream Theater" sounding, you could never expect to find something 'completely new' sounding. Because anything 'new' is still going to be an extension of that musicians expression. They won't change for you, but you can change how you respond to it and it might appear new to your tastes. Also, because Dream Theater has this framework, that's why the artists have solo projects to expand beyond the familiar boundaries they are expected to maintain. And if you still can't find something 'different' or considerably 'new', that's why there are thousands more composers and musicians for you to resonate with. You can't impose your taste on on an artist, you can only flow with their taste if it's something you feel interested in. 

[Shadow Ninja 2.0]

brain asplode

[GasparXR]

stuff

Post of the year.