Author Topic: Your Controversial Opinions on DT  (Read 802989 times)

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Offline The Presence of Frenemies

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #280 on: December 26, 2012, 10:01:38 PM »
How about:
Quote
   Cleveland, 20.03.2004

band history video (intro tape)
1.  As I Am
2.  This Dying Soul
3.  The Mirror/The Mirror (reprise)
4.  short piano set-up
5.  Through My Words
6.  Fatal Tragedy
7.  Hollow Years (w/ extended guitar solo)
8.  War Inside My Head
9.  The Test That Stumped Them All
10.  A Fortune in Lies
11.  Endless Sacrifice
12.  Finally Free
~~~intermission~~~
13.  Metropolis part 1
14.  Honor Thy Father
15.  keyboard solo
A Mind Beside Itself:
16.  I Erotomania
17.  II Voices (abridged)
18.  III The Silent Man (electric version)
19.  In the Name of God
~~~encore~~~
Dead Poets Society (intro tape)
A Change of Seasons:
20.  I The Crimson Sunrise
21.  II Innocence
22.  III Carpe Diem
23.  IV The Darkest of Winters
24.  V Another World
25.  VI The Inevitable Summer
26.  VII The Crimson Sunset

Now THAT's a setlist I'd love to see on a DVD. Maybe swap out some of the TOT material, but that's about all that separates this from perfection in a pre-8V setlist.
Yeah, I have no idea what the cakeless person in that analogy is meant to be eating. If he's got some sort of cake substitute, it should really have been worked into the narrative at some point. As it stands, the options are:

  • Hoard a cake just to stare blankly into its doughy edifice.
  • Make futile chewing motions with your mouth while starving to death.

Offline ?

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #281 on: December 27, 2012, 01:08:44 AM »
Ummm, if you have any time available at some point in the future, check out the tourography on MP's site for some setlists from the same tour - A LOT of them are vaaaaastly superior to Budokan. Or ask Marco, since he loves to talk about it :biggrin:
Yeah, I have seen many of the setlists from that era and that's exactly why I complained about the selection of songs on Budokan - why include stuff like New Millennium, TTTSTA or Goodnight Kiss when you can throw in The Glass Prison, The Great Debate or Caught in a Web?

Offline wasteland

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #282 on: December 27, 2012, 01:22:29 AM »
Ummm, if you have any time available at some point in the future, check out the tourography on MP's site for some setlists from the same tour - A LOT of them are vaaaaastly superior to Budokan. Or ask Marco, since he loves to talk about it :biggrin:
Yeah, I have seen many of the setlists from that era and that's exactly why I complained about the selection of songs on Budokan - why include stuff like New Millennium, TTTSTA or Goodnight Kiss when you can throw in The Glass Prison, A Mind Beside Itself or A Change Of Seasons?

FTFY  :tup
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Offline BlobVanDam

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #283 on: December 27, 2012, 01:29:02 AM »
Ummm, if you have any time available at some point in the future, check out the tourography on MP's site for some setlists from the same tour - A LOT of them are vaaaaastly superior to Budokan. Or ask Marco, since he loves to talk about it :biggrin:
Yeah, I have seen many of the setlists from that era and that's exactly why I complained about the selection of songs on Budokan - why include stuff like New Millennium, TTTSTA or Goodnight Kiss when you can throw in The Glass Prison, A Mind Beside Itself or A Change Of Seasons?

FTFY  :tup

They already had those on the previous live album. That would have been silly, especially with how much time they'd eat out of the set time that would be taken away from other songs.
TGP really should have been on there, going into TDS.
Only King could mis-spell a LETTER.
Yep. I think the only party in the MP/DT situation that hasn't moved on is DTF.

Offline The Presence of Frenemies

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #284 on: December 27, 2012, 02:02:24 AM »
The other thing about wishing for a different Budokan setlist that makes it kind of a weird exercise is that even if they made a "dream setlist," LaBrie being in suboptimal condition would make the renditions likely not as good as the studio versions (for vocally difficult songs, at least). It's a lot easier to play the "what-if" game, at least for me, with Score and Tokyo, because you know he'd be on fire for whatever was thrown into either.
Yeah, I have no idea what the cakeless person in that analogy is meant to be eating. If he's got some sort of cake substitute, it should really have been worked into the narrative at some point. As it stands, the options are:

  • Hoard a cake just to stare blankly into its doughy edifice.
  • Make futile chewing motions with your mouth while starving to death.

Offline MoraWintersoul

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #285 on: December 27, 2012, 02:59:03 AM »
The other thing about wishing for a different Budokan setlist that makes it kind of a weird exercise is that even if they made a "dream setlist," LaBrie being in suboptimal condition would make the renditions likely not as good as the studio versions (for vocally difficult songs, at least). It's a lot easier to play the "what-if" game, at least for me, with Score and Tokyo, because you know he'd be on fire for whatever was thrown into either.
Except that, on that tour, Budokan was one of the nights where he was more tired than usual. He talked about how frustrated he was over the fact he had more or less an off-night on the most important show of the tour, but there was nothing they could do:

Quote
"James:And you were talking about Live at Budokan. Well, unfortunately I would have loved to have gone in and re-sang that whole fuckin’ thing, cause that was one of my worst nights on that whole tour, and it was like, “What do I do? Do I cheat? Do I go into the studio and re-do it? Do I just leave what it is and that’s it?”

Jaime:   That’s the essence, though.

James:    Yeah, I mean, it was really unfortunate, because, usually when a band does something like that, a three-hour show, you usually have a day off before. We were jamming the night before-We did the three-hour show the night before. It was just trying to fit things in. And to a vocalist, it’s just completely unfair. But anyways, whatever…

Quote
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Offline wasteland

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #286 on: December 27, 2012, 03:05:43 AM »
What James said is actually not completely accurate. Unless I am misunderstanding him and they reharsed the whole budokan show the night before the actual gig, they had no show the 25th of April (budokan being recorded the 26th).
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Offline MoraWintersoul

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #287 on: December 27, 2012, 03:14:56 AM »
What James said is actually not completely accurate. Unless I am misunderstanding him and they reharsed the whole budokan show the night before the actual gig, they had no show the 25th of April (budokan being recorded the 26th).
I think this means they had a full show 24th and rehearsal 25th but my reading comprehension sucks balls :D
Edit: yup, they did have one on the 24th so that miiight be it. And a couple before. And on this one they played a set with ACOS and the entire Number Of The Beast. Ouch. Yeah I can see how that happened to him :biggrin:
« Last Edit: December 27, 2012, 03:20:42 AM by MoraWintersoul »

Quote
Don't try to BS her about Kevin Moore facts, she will obscure quote you in the face.
You consistently make so much sense, and express yourself so eloquently, that I've decided you're basically a female version of robwebster.

Offline wasteland

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #288 on: December 27, 2012, 03:19:41 AM »
Yes, they had a show the 24th! And not a light one as they played Number Of The Beast, A Mind Beside Itself and ACOS. And that was the last of a string of three shows in a row.
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Offline MoraWintersoul

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #289 on: December 27, 2012, 03:21:38 AM »
Some poor planning, huh? But they had no other choice I guess.

Quote
Don't try to BS her about Kevin Moore facts, she will obscure quote you in the face.
You consistently make so much sense, and express yourself so eloquently, that I've decided you're basically a female version of robwebster.

Offline wasteland

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #290 on: December 27, 2012, 03:26:07 AM »
I guess so. Still playing a whole album meant for another singer and challanging on its own the show before a DVD recording was not the wisest choice. It's a shame that budokan went out like that, as there were some performances from that tour that can even be ranked on par with.
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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #291 on: December 27, 2012, 03:28:03 AM »
why include stuff like New Millennium, TTTSTA or Goodnight Kiss when you can throw in The Glass Prison, A Mind Beside Itself or A Change Of Seasons?

FTFY  :tup

They already had those on the previous live album. That would have been silly, especially with how much time they'd eat out of the set time that would be taken away from other songs.
TGP really should have been on there, going into TDS.
Totally agreed - MP was pretty strict about not repeating songs on subsequent live albums, so it wouldn't have happened anyway. And as said, James wasn't in the best condition during that show, so those versions would've been clearly inferior to the LSFNY ones (not that the LSFNY versions are perfect, either). I also agree that they should've played TGP and TDS back to back - I'm not a huge fan of the latter, but it would've been a great opportunity to play the first 2 parts of the 12-step suite in the same setlist.

Offline wasteland

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #292 on: December 27, 2012, 03:35:09 AM »
They had the chance to do it twice, as the TGP>TDS segue was played in both the ToT and the Octavarium tour. It's clear, and comprehensible, that MP was hesitating of including 25 minutes of music that he envisioned as a work in progress that should have been properly and officially showcased only upon completion.
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Offline The Presence of Frenemies

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #293 on: December 27, 2012, 05:40:59 AM »
The other thing about wishing for a different Budokan setlist that makes it kind of a weird exercise is that even if they made a "dream setlist," LaBrie being in suboptimal condition would make the renditions likely not as good as the studio versions (for vocally difficult songs, at least). It's a lot easier to play the "what-if" game, at least for me, with Score and Tokyo, because you know he'd be on fire for whatever was thrown into either.
Except that, on that tour, Budokan was one of the nights where he was more tired than usual. He talked about how frustrated he was over the fact he had more or less an off-night on the most important show of the tour, but there was nothing they could do:

Quote
"James:And you were talking about Live at Budokan. Well, unfortunately I would have loved to have gone in and re-sang that whole fuckin’ thing, cause that was one of my worst nights on that whole tour, and it was like, “What do I do? Do I cheat? Do I go into the studio and re-do it? Do I just leave what it is and that’s it?”

Jaime:   That’s the essence, though.

James:    Yeah, I mean, it was really unfortunate, because, usually when a band does something like that, a three-hour show, you usually have a day off before. We were jamming the night before-We did the three-hour show the night before. It was just trying to fit things in. And to a vocalist, it’s just completely unfair. But anyways, whatever…

Yeah, I've seen that interview and it's really interesting. Didn't mean to come off like I was bashing James or something--I've seen plenty of footage from that era where he sounds great. I just meant that, regardless of how legitimate the reasons may be, the fact is that he wasn't in good form that night, and thus having great songs included wouldn't necessarily have meant the DVD would be their best or anything. To me, the only really worthwhile Budokan tracks are the ones where they changed something--Hollow Years, Beyond This Life, and ITNOG--the rest just don't outdo the studio versions because the studio versions have better vocals and at-least-as-good musicianship. So they could have thrown LTL, AMBI, ACOS, whatever in there, and it probably still wouldn't have ultimately been a great release despite the great setlist choices.

In the same sense, WDADRU is a great concept that I'm very glad they tried, but he didn't happen to have a good night there either. Again, there's a legitimate reason for that too--it was the second set of a show, so his voice was already somewhat spent, and I'm sure it was right in the middle of a tough schedule (not sure on specifics). But the fact that you can explain James' performance away and that it's no fault of his own doesn't actually make the show better.
Yeah, I have no idea what the cakeless person in that analogy is meant to be eating. If he's got some sort of cake substitute, it should really have been worked into the narrative at some point. As it stands, the options are:

  • Hoard a cake just to stare blankly into its doughy edifice.
  • Make futile chewing motions with your mouth while starving to death.

Offline MoraWintersoul

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #294 on: December 27, 2012, 06:29:13 AM »
But the fact that you can explain James' performance away and that it's no fault of his own doesn't actually make the show better.
Yeah, I hear you! I didn't want to say that the better solution would have been to replace Budokan's setlist with some better setlist under the same circumstances, but avoiding those circumstances all together. Luckily, for Score (and for the new DVD!) the situation improved :tup and for Budokan, it is what it is. Not a lot of people even mind James' vocs on that show, otherwise it wouldn't have been heralded as a monster show, as I often hear people call it.

Quote
Don't try to BS her about Kevin Moore facts, she will obscure quote you in the face.
You consistently make so much sense, and express yourself so eloquently, that I've decided you're basically a female version of robwebster.

Offline BlobVanDam

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #295 on: December 27, 2012, 06:43:25 AM »
JLB has some great vocal moments on Budokan. Hollow Years is perfect, New Millennium rocks vocally, and his vocals in Trial of Tears give me chills. The only songs that I think are really weak vocally are PMU and ITNOG, which are right at the end of the set when he's clearly tired, and they're both a bit higher songs.
Overall though, I think his vocals are pretty good, and an improvement over LSFNY (slightly imo) and OIALT (hugely).
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Offline The Presence of Frenemies

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #296 on: December 27, 2012, 10:16:06 AM »
JLB has some great vocal moments on Budokan. Hollow Years is perfect, New Millennium rocks vocally, and his vocals in Trial of Tears give me chills. The only songs that I think are really weak vocally are PMU and ITNOG, which are right at the end of the set when he's clearly tired, and they're both a bit higher songs.
Overall though, I think his vocals are pretty good, and an improvement over LSFNY (slightly imo) and OIALT (hugely).

I found a lot of the TOT stuff and Beyond This Life pretty lacking, though I do agree HY, NM, and ToT were well-executed. I prefer LSFNY vocally though. The Livetime stuff (I usually go for the DVD and not the CD) was as problematic as Budokan, but in a different way--by the time Budokan came around, he had learned how to avoid big voicecracks and screwups, but the years had worn away some of his clarity in the upper registers. LSFNY is kind of in between, where you get a bit of both issues but neither is really present enough to detract from the show. At least, that's my opinion--I'm well aware that this sort of thing can easily be judged through infinite equally valid lenses.
Yeah, I have no idea what the cakeless person in that analogy is meant to be eating. If he's got some sort of cake substitute, it should really have been worked into the narrative at some point. As it stands, the options are:

  • Hoard a cake just to stare blankly into its doughy edifice.
  • Make futile chewing motions with your mouth while starving to death.

Offline BlobVanDam

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #297 on: December 27, 2012, 10:28:10 AM »
JLB has some great vocal moments on Budokan. Hollow Years is perfect, New Millennium rocks vocally, and his vocals in Trial of Tears give me chills. The only songs that I think are really weak vocally are PMU and ITNOG, which are right at the end of the set when he's clearly tired, and they're both a bit higher songs.
Overall though, I think his vocals are pretty good, and an improvement over LSFNY (slightly imo) and OIALT (hugely).

I found a lot of the TOT stuff and Beyond This Life pretty lacking, though I do agree HY, NM, and ToT were well-executed. I prefer LSFNY vocally though. The Livetime stuff (I usually go for the DVD and not the CD) was as problematic as Budokan, but in a different way--by the time Budokan came around, he had learned how to avoid big voicecracks and screwups, but the years had worn away some of his clarity in the upper registers. LSFNY is kind of in between, where you get a bit of both issues but neither is really present enough to detract from the show. At least, that's my opinion--I'm well aware that this sort of thing can easily be judged through infinite equally valid lenses.

I think that's a fairly good summary, although I found him to be slightly more pitchy and uncontrolled on LSFNY overall, especially in the upper register. I think after changing vocal coach, he dialed back on the big screams and has sung the upper register with a cleaner, more controlled technique. And I think the really long set of LSFNY is also a factor.
Keep in mind, I said I find Budokan *slightly* better, so I'm kinda splitting hairs here. Both shows had their fair share of strengths and weaknesses vocally, and the wear on JLB's voice is showing by the end of both shows. I just think he's a bit more "on" for Budokan. And I know many people prefer LSFNY, which is also fine.
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Offline The Presence of Frenemies

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #298 on: December 27, 2012, 10:31:23 AM »
JLB has some great vocal moments on Budokan. Hollow Years is perfect, New Millennium rocks vocally, and his vocals in Trial of Tears give me chills. The only songs that I think are really weak vocally are PMU and ITNOG, which are right at the end of the set when he's clearly tired, and they're both a bit higher songs.
Overall though, I think his vocals are pretty good, and an improvement over LSFNY (slightly imo) and OIALT (hugely).

I found a lot of the TOT stuff and Beyond This Life pretty lacking, though I do agree HY, NM, and ToT were well-executed. I prefer LSFNY vocally though. The Livetime stuff (I usually go for the DVD and not the CD) was as problematic as Budokan, but in a different way--by the time Budokan came around, he had learned how to avoid big voicecracks and screwups, but the years had worn away some of his clarity in the upper registers. LSFNY is kind of in between, where you get a bit of both issues but neither is really present enough to detract from the show. At least, that's my opinion--I'm well aware that this sort of thing can easily be judged through infinite equally valid lenses.

I think that's a fairly good summary, although I found him to be slightly more pitchy and uncontrolled on LSFNY overall, especially in the upper register. I think after changing vocal coach, he dialed back on the big screams and has sung the upper register with a cleaner, more controlled technique. And I think the really long set of LSFNY is also a factor.
Keep in mind, I said I find Budokan *slightly* better, so I'm kinda splitting hairs here. Both shows had their fair share of strengths and weaknesses vocally, and the wear on JLB's voice is showing by the end of both shows. I just think he's a bit more "on" for Budokan. And I know many people prefer LSFNY, which is also fine.

Yeah, that's totally fair. Incidentally, you mention him dialing back the big screams around that time (a very true observation), which makes me wonder: what made him bring them back in such full force on the ADTOE tour? Did he just suddenly decide to go back to them after eschewing them for over a decade, or was it some sort of MP-not-wanting-them thing that then got lifted? I've been wondering about this a lot, because I LOVE that he's gone back to that, but I've never really heard any explanation or even speculation as to why.
Yeah, I have no idea what the cakeless person in that analogy is meant to be eating. If he's got some sort of cake substitute, it should really have been worked into the narrative at some point. As it stands, the options are:

  • Hoard a cake just to stare blankly into its doughy edifice.
  • Make futile chewing motions with your mouth while starving to death.

Offline BlobVanDam

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #299 on: December 27, 2012, 10:37:26 AM »
He didn't just suddenly bring them back this tour though. He's started using them more gradually over the last few tours, from about the Octavarium tour onwards. I think he's probably just gotten better with his vocal technique and training to the point where he can start using them without straining his voice too much.
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Offline wasteland

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #300 on: December 27, 2012, 10:43:06 AM »
Yeah, that's totally fair. Incidentally, you mention him dialing back the big screams around that time (a very true observation), which makes me wonder: what made him bring them back in such full force on the ADTOE tour? Did he just suddenly decide to go back to them after eschewing them for over a decade, or was it some sort of MP-not-wanting-them thing that then got lifted? I've been wondering about this a lot, because I LOVE that he's gone back to that, but I've never really heard any explanation or even speculation as to why.

I can't say that the thought never crossed my mind, but in all fairness, it's not very likely. On the other hand, I think that was a concequence of the split in the way that James too, as with all the other band members, decided to step up to fill the hole left, and more or less intentionally he did such on stage as well as in all the other matters. Or maybe he just felt a greater degree of freedom to tune his live performances by himself, just like he was allowed to do with his studio vocals, which he recorded in Canada on his own, with just a few imputs by the producer.

He didn't just suddenly bring them back this tour though. He's started using them more gradually over the last few tours, from about the Octavarium tour onwards. I think he's probably just gotten better with his vocal technique and training to the point where he can start using them without straining his voice too much.

True, but the increase was to steep and cospicuous to be casual. In the whole BCSL tour, that I once scanned for impromptu high notes, I could find the totality of ONE high scream (the last line of As I Am), and yet most of his performances were quite strong (albeit not as strong as the best legs of ADTOE). On the Octavarium tour there was some cute screaming (not as raspy and aggressive as in 2012) yes, but in the CiM tour the high notes were more sporadic, and some of them (LITS) were quite cringeworthy :D
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Offline The Presence of Frenemies

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #301 on: December 27, 2012, 10:46:09 AM »
Yeah, I overstated--he did use them before, and often to great effect (the 8V ending, Cemetery Gates and Highway Star covers, and LITS, to name a few spots), but there seemed to be a dramatic (no pun intended) uptick this last tour. Suddenly the guy was taking UAGM's vocals up in the chorus and inserting screams into songs like TGD, ES, and PS. Just struck me as a really significant change after several years of very sporadic usage.
Yeah, I have no idea what the cakeless person in that analogy is meant to be eating. If he's got some sort of cake substitute, it should really have been worked into the narrative at some point. As it stands, the options are:

  • Hoard a cake just to stare blankly into its doughy edifice.
  • Make futile chewing motions with your mouth while starving to death.

Offline wasteland

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #302 on: December 27, 2012, 10:49:13 AM »
Yeah, I overstated--he did use them before, and often to great effect (the 8V ending, Cemetery Gates and Highway Star covers, and LITS, to name a few spots), but there seemed to be a dramatic (no pun intended) uptick this last tour. Suddenly the guy was taking UAGM's vocals up in the chorus and inserting screams into songs like TGD, ES, and PS. Just struck me as a really significant change after several years of very sporadic usage.

Those you listed were the first screams of this tour. The best (and wildest) were introduced later: 6:00, TDEN, Surrounded, PMU, AIA, BMUBMD and so on.
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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #303 on: December 27, 2012, 10:53:39 AM »
Yeah, I overstated--he did use them before, and often to great effect (the 8V ending, Cemetery Gates and Highway Star covers, and LITS, to name a few spots), but there seemed to be a dramatic (no pun intended) uptick this last tour. Suddenly the guy was taking UAGM's vocals up in the chorus and inserting screams into songs like TGD, ES, and PS. Just struck me as a really significant change after several years of very sporadic usage.

I disagree. I remember quite a few high screams from previous tours, and I don't think it's been a huge change.
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Offline The Presence of Frenemies

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #304 on: December 27, 2012, 10:56:10 AM »
Yeah, I overstated--he did use them before, and often to great effect (the 8V ending, Cemetery Gates and Highway Star covers, and LITS, to name a few spots), but there seemed to be a dramatic (no pun intended) uptick this last tour. Suddenly the guy was taking UAGM's vocals up in the chorus and inserting screams into songs like TGD, ES, and PS. Just struck me as a really significant change after several years of very sporadic usage.

Those you listed were the first screams of this tour. The best (and wildest) were introduced later: 6:00, TDEN, Surrounded, PMU, AIA, BMUBMD and so on.

The man sure has rekindled his relationship with G#5s, that's for sure.
Yeah, I have no idea what the cakeless person in that analogy is meant to be eating. If he's got some sort of cake substitute, it should really have been worked into the narrative at some point. As it stands, the options are:

  • Hoard a cake just to stare blankly into its doughy edifice.
  • Make futile chewing motions with your mouth while starving to death.

Offline Madman Shepherd

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #305 on: December 27, 2012, 11:34:34 AM »
Most of James's screams on the ADTOE tour are less controlled than before.  Sometimes when someone loses ability due to age, they find other things they can do with their voice.  I don't think James can still hit the high notes as consistently and with as much quality as even just 5 or 6 years ago.  What he does now is more raspy and aggressive, mainly due to limitations. 

I'm not saying that to criticize, as he has sounded amazing on the last few tours, but I think it is just a consequence of getting older.

Ronnie James Dio found some ungodly high pitch screams in his 60s (!!!) that he never used before.  That was because the high end of his voice was suffering.  He still sounded great though but he had to alter his style towards the end.  For an example check out the beginning of Mob Rules from a tour from the 80s or 90s where he says "Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhh come onnnnn!" and compare it with the Radio City Music Hall show from 2007.  In that show he screams "Come onnnnn" in an aggressive falsetto more out of limitation of his vocal range at the age of 65 than anything else.  Still kind of a cool thing to experiment with and he still sounded great regardless. 

Offline TheGreatPretender

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #306 on: December 27, 2012, 11:38:30 AM »
Most of James's screams on the ADTOE tour are less controlled than before.  Sometimes when someone loses ability due to age, they find other things they can do with their voice.  I don't think James can still hit the high notes as consistently and with as much quality as even just 5 or 6 years ago.  What he does now is more raspy and aggressive, mainly due to limitations. 

I disagree. I mean, they are raspy and aggressive, but they seem very much in control to me, at least as far as pitch goes. Obviously, he can't hit the clean, soaring notes like back in the early 90's, but hell, he's been having trouble with that ever since his voice incident. The quality of his high screams might be different now, but it seems very much in control to me.
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Offline The Presence of Frenemies

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #307 on: December 27, 2012, 11:55:30 AM »
James' screams always sounded kind of raspy to me, even back in his heyday. Now, they are a bit raspier and slightly diminished now, but there's still plenty of power there, power that a lot of (rightfully) well-regarded singers would still kill for. But part of the appeal with the screams, at least to me, is that they aren't just these big clear notes--they're really high, but they have balls. And they just explode over the top of the song as a result, in a fashion I haven't heard many singers successfully emulate (whereas a ton of singers, and just about anyone really, can do the big clean notes with some practice).
Yeah, I have no idea what the cakeless person in that analogy is meant to be eating. If he's got some sort of cake substitute, it should really have been worked into the narrative at some point. As it stands, the options are:

  • Hoard a cake just to stare blankly into its doughy edifice.
  • Make futile chewing motions with your mouth while starving to death.

Offline Madman Shepherd

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #308 on: December 27, 2012, 12:11:58 PM »
Most of James's screams on the ADTOE tour are less controlled than before.  Sometimes when someone loses ability due to age, they find other things they can do with their voice.  I don't think James can still hit the high notes as consistently and with as much quality as even just 5 or 6 years ago.  What he does now is more raspy and aggressive, mainly due to limitations. 

I disagree. I mean, they are raspy and aggressive, but they seem very much in control to me, at least as far as pitch goes. Obviously, he can't hit the clean, soaring notes like back in the early 90's, but hell, he's been having trouble with that ever since his voice incident. The quality of his high screams might be different now, but it seems very much in control to me.

I don't necessarily disagree with you.  I think I could have worded it better.  Not being a trained vocalist I am trying to figure out how to convey what I mean. 

For instance, in Under a Glass Moon when he says "Praying for TIME to disappear", nowadays the word "time" is not controlled in the sense that he can control the exact note to hit.  On the ADTOE tour he essentially just screamed the word "time" and it sounded great, don't get me wrong, but sometimes when you scream a word like that instead of sing it, it will sound a million times better than if you were to sing it and hit the wrong note.  There are other examples that I can't think of right now, but I think the screaming that he does sounds awesome but I consider that less controlled as far as pitch and intonation is concerned.  I don't mind it one bit but i think it is an ever so small example of how his age is catching up with him.

Offline The Presence of Frenemies

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #309 on: December 27, 2012, 12:26:22 PM »
Most of James's screams on the ADTOE tour are less controlled than before.  Sometimes when someone loses ability due to age, they find other things they can do with their voice.  I don't think James can still hit the high notes as consistently and with as much quality as even just 5 or 6 years ago.  What he does now is more raspy and aggressive, mainly due to limitations. 

I disagree. I mean, they are raspy and aggressive, but they seem very much in control to me, at least as far as pitch goes. Obviously, he can't hit the clean, soaring notes like back in the early 90's, but hell, he's been having trouble with that ever since his voice incident. The quality of his high screams might be different now, but it seems very much in control to me.

I don't necessarily disagree with you.  I think I could have worded it better.  Not being a trained vocalist I am trying to figure out how to convey what I mean. 

For instance, in Under a Glass Moon when he says "Praying for TIME to disappear", nowadays the word "time" is not controlled in the sense that he can control the exact note to hit.  On the ADTOE tour he essentially just screamed the word "time" and it sounded great, don't get me wrong, but sometimes when you scream a word like that instead of sing it, it will sound a million times better than if you were to sing it and hit the wrong note.  There are other examples that I can't think of right now, but I think the screaming that he does sounds awesome but I consider that less controlled as far as pitch and intonation is concerned.  I don't mind it one bit but i think it is an ever so small example of how his age is catching up with him.

If I recall correctly, all the "TIME" notes are G#5s, though I wouldn't be surprised if he was off by half a step here or there with some of the performances. I think some of the effect you mention has to do with the fact that a lot of the notes he's screaming now are G#s, As, and even Bbs, whereas back in '93 he was doing a lot of Fs, F#s, and Gs (general statements; obviously there are exceptions). So he's actually doing higher ones nowadays, which is, of course, going to make the note a bit more strained as he approaches his limit (which is probably something like a B or C at this point) compared to the ones from like '93. Listen to how he sounds doing, say, the LTL F# now--it retains a lot more openness than those "TIME" screams (at least on James' good days!).

I think age does play some effect, but I don't think James' peak vocal power in that range has really diminished much...which is really quite shocking, given all he's been through. You don't see a lot of singers his age still able to replicate those sorts of late-80s/early-90s exploits so faithfully.
Yeah, I have no idea what the cakeless person in that analogy is meant to be eating. If he's got some sort of cake substitute, it should really have been worked into the narrative at some point. As it stands, the options are:

  • Hoard a cake just to stare blankly into its doughy edifice.
  • Make futile chewing motions with your mouth while starving to death.

Offline MoraWintersoul

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #310 on: December 27, 2012, 12:42:11 PM »
I think age does play some effect, but I don't think James' peak vocal power in that range has really diminished much...which is really quite shocking, given all he's been through. You don't see a lot of singers his age still able to replicate those sorts of late-80s/early-90s exploits so faithfully.
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Offline TheGreatPretender

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #311 on: December 27, 2012, 12:58:14 PM »
I think age does play some effect, but I don't think James' peak vocal power in that range has really diminished much...which is really quite shocking, given all he's been through. You don't see a lot of singers his age still able to replicate those sorts of late-80s/early-90s exploits so faithfully.

Yeah, but James actually took the time and effort to take care of his voice, studying with Jamie Vendera and all. And Vendera is like a freaking authority on vocal care, so I'm sure he helped James with placement and daily maintenance and other things, so that whatever James may be doing with his voice right now, doesn't actually hurt or deteriorate his vocal cords.
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Offline TheLordOfTheStrings

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #312 on: December 27, 2012, 02:36:42 PM »
I think James is incredible. I saw DT three times on the Dramatic Tour of Events, and every show, he was better than the last one I saw. Sometimes he'll sing a line though and it just turns into a big flurry of vowels, but you have to remember that singing is the most tiring instrument. People think the drums are, but it's actually singing. You're using all of your muscles to sing, and you're not breathing normally. James is a fucking pro.
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Offline TheGreatPretender

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #313 on: December 27, 2012, 05:23:15 PM »
I think James is incredible. I saw DT three times on the Dramatic Tour of Events, and every show, he was better than the last one I saw. Sometimes he'll sing a line though and it just turns into a big flurry of vowels, but you have to remember that singing is the most tiring instrument. People think the drums are, but it's actually singing. You're using all of your muscles to sing, and you're not breathing normally. James is a fucking pro.

Not only that, but wood, metal, and whatever else modern instruments are made of is all quality check tested and resilient enough to withstand the kinds of punishments it gets. You can't just get "better vocal cords" so all you have to work with is what God gave you and what you've developed. So that makes it that much more difficult, because not everyone can handle the same kind of punishment, or the kind of discipline it takes to maintain their voice. I mean, if a guitar or a drum breaks down, you can always get another. But if a voice breaks down, that's it, so it's that much more crucial to take care of it, and yeah, any vocalist who can manage to do that for as long as James has deserves a damn trophy.
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Offline Madman Shepherd

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #314 on: December 27, 2012, 10:33:04 PM »
I think James is incredible. I saw DT three times on the Dramatic Tour of Events, and every show, he was better than the last one I saw. Sometimes he'll sing a line though and it just turns into a big flurry of vowels, but you have to remember that singing is the most tiring instrument. People think the drums are, but it's actually singing. You're using all of your muscles to sing, and you're not breathing normally. James is a fucking pro.

Not only that, but wood, metal, and whatever else modern instruments are made of is all quality check tested and resilient enough to withstand the kinds of punishments it gets. You can't just get "better vocal cords" so all you have to work with is what God gave you and what you've developed. So that makes it that much more difficult, because not everyone can handle the same kind of punishment, or the kind of discipline it takes to maintain their voice. I mean, if a guitar or a drum breaks down, you can always get another. But if a voice breaks down, that's it, so it's that much more crucial to take care of it, and yeah, any vocalist who can manage to do that for as long as James has deserves a damn trophy.

Totally agree.  His range is amazing especially given what he has been through.  It's also quite odd that someone that can hit those high notes has such a warmth to his voice.  Some singers that sing that high have a more thin sounding voice.  Not James, which is why he is so perfect in DT