Your Controversial Opinions on DT

[KevShmev]

That was just Mike Portnoy repackaging his inability to play some of the MM-era tracks as "songs not speaking to him". He cannot play them without Port-ifying the tracks. It's a question of whether he'd like to do that or not.

I get that DT is a band of players, but music is not a competitive sport. This idea that Portnoy won't pick certain songs because he cannot play them is such a bunch of nonsense.

[macneil]

Raw Dog was never played live.

I think there are several issues with knocking out the remaining Mangini songs, but none of them are related to time. If the band continues to rotate stuff and pull things in and out for one off performances, they can play through as much of the catalog as they want to. I think it comes down to other factors:

1: The fan demand for these songs just isn't there. I think Surrender to Reason is probably the most likely because it seems to have a vocal fanbase, maybe S2N after that. But the reality is that none of these songs have the mystique of Space Dye Vest or what The Best of Times started to manifest over the years. Room 137 is interesting because it's Mangini's only lyrical contribution, but I don't think I'm the only one who considers it a pretty forgettable song for the most part. The lack of intrigue around the remaining unplayed songs is probably going to make it difficult for the band to be motivated to play them, especially when the guy who is now in charge of setlists had nothing to do with the writing and recording of these songs.

2: It still seems kinda unclear how familiar Portnoy is with this era and what DT was actively up to during his time out of the band. Has he kept tabs on everything that was played live? He said that he listened through the albums and made notes of songs that spoke to him musically, so it seems to me that if any of those songs happen to be on the unplayed list and end up getting played, it may be incidental. The push to play these songs is going to have to come from the other four members I think, and considering songs like STR were ignored for almost a decade already, I am kinda skeptical.

Honestly, with the inclusion of This is the Life and Barstool Warrior on the last tour, Portnoy has shown about as much care and attention to the Mangini albums as Petrucci had (outside a few songs from ADTOE, hardly anything from a Mangini album survived the setlists after the initial promotional tour).

I think you hit the nail on the head. I saw multiple interviewers in the lead up ask him if they would ever play The Best of Times live now that the band is back together. Same with the 12-step suite. I don't see many fans knocking down the door to finally hear Room 137.

It seems unlikely unless MP happens to particularly like a song (or another band member pushes really hard for one, but as you say they didn't really prioritise that while Mangini was in the band either).

[Kocak]

I get that DT is a band of players, but music is not a competitive sport. This idea that Portnoy won't pick certain songs because he cannot play them is such a bunch of nonsense.

These are rather optimistic takes. MP himself would be the first one to admit it.

[Kyo]

I will not be a Dream Theater fan if that era gets swept under the rug. I have faith in MP, but dropping a Mangini Era track to fit in TBOT probably isn't a good sign. TBF, they dropped to MP Era tracks as well, but still.

They were probably scared of going over the curfew, which can get very expensive at RCMH. They dropped three songs just to be on the safe side this time (unlike 2006), I wouldn't read too much into the specific picks on this special occasion.

[TAC]

They were probably scared of going over the curfew, which can get very expensive at RCMH. They dropped three songs just to be on the safe side this time (unlike 2006), I wouldn't read too much into the specific picks on this special occasion.

And for the record, this edited my original post to say I would not be a "happy" DT fan. THE Obviously, I'll still be a DT fan.

[Awaken]

While I'm still kind of coming down from Saturday, I decided to check out some show video.  IDK that it's really a controversial opinion anymore, but I think the guys may want to put serious thought into a) formally rewriting vocal melodies for Images and Words tunes, or b) stop playing them regularly (or at all) 

I LOVE Under a Glass Moon.  Behind only Metropolis as my favorite on the album.  James really struggled w both when I go back to the video, to the point I'm kind of wondering how I didn't hear a lot of this while I was in the room.  Decided to check other shows on tour and it's equally not great.  Taking some time to rewrite/re-approach the vocals will help prolong being able to play these classics live.  Crossing fingers.

[durga2112]

While I'm still kind of coming down from Saturday, I decided to check out some show video.  IDK that it's really a controversial opinion anymore, but I think the guys may want to put serious thought into a) formally rewriting vocal melodies for Images and Words tunes, or b) stop playing them regularly (or at all) 

I LOVE Under a Glass Moon.  Behind only Metropolis as my favorite on the album.  James really struggled w both when I go back to the video, to the point I'm kind of wondering how I didn't hear a lot of this while I was in the room.  Decided to check other shows on tour and it's equally not great.  Taking some time to rewrite/re-approach the vocals will help prolong being able to play these classics live.  Crossing fingers.

It's almost as if live performances are better experienced in person rather than on YouTube. 

[Awaken]

It's almost as if live performances are better experienced in person rather than on YouTube. 

Speaking of controversial opinions

[durga2112]

Speaking of controversial opinions

Hey, if the boot fits. I'll die (with my boots on  ) on this hill if I have to. 

[DTiwbwMP]

I will not be a happy Dream Theater fan if that era gets swept under the rug.

Now that we got TBOT, MPs next pull from the closet should be Raw Dog! Granted, it's not a "classic" by any means, but I'd still love to see them perform it. As far as the MM era, other than songs from ADTOE, I honestly don't care if I see any other songs ever again. Just me.

[KevShmev]

These are rather optimistic takes. MP himself would be the first one to admit it.

Doubtful and irrelevant.  I cannot imagine there is a single Dream Theater song that Mike Portnoy has the inability to play.  And expecting him to play it exactly like Mangini is not a realistic ask since musicians often put their own spin on it when playing music originally played by another instrumentalist.  Mangini didn't always play Portnoy's parts all exactly as they originally were, and Portnoy would not either.

[TAC]

I cannot imagine there is a single Dream Theater song that Mike Portnoy has the inability to play. 

I agree.

[hefdaddy42]

Have they played "Raw Dog" live, or has everyone just collectively forgotten about that song?

They haven't, thank God.

And the band probably has come close to forgetting it, TBH, other than MP.

[Kocak]

Doubtful and irrelevant.  I cannot imagine there is a single Dream Theater song that Mike Portnoy has the inability to play.  And expecting him to play it exactly like Mangini is not a realistic ask since musicians often put their own spin on it when playing music originally played by another instrumentalist.  Mangini didn't always play Portnoy's parts all exactly as they originally were, and Portnoy would not either.

There's a difference between the ability to play a part and interpreting though. In terms of ability, there are things that MM does that MP cannot do. What you suggest is interpretation. MP would have to put his own spin as he doesn't have the ability to play some of the parts. He'd be the first one to admit this.

An example of this would be the drummer auditions. Thomas Lang can play the exact parts, but he *chose* to interpret it. For MP, it's a necessity and not a choice for some of the parts. An MP example of this would be when he played the Derek Sherinian track Apocalypse 1470 BC. He cannot do some of the Virgil Donati parts, so he Portified them.

[Lonk]

There's a difference between the ability to play a part and interpreting though. In terms of ability, there are things that MM does that MP cannot do. What you suggest is interpretation. MP would have to put his own spin as he doesn't have the ability to play some of the parts. He'd be the first one to admit this.

Honestly, while I disagree that he doesn't have the ability to play certain songs, I would prefer for MP to put his own spin to songs when played live.

[Kocak]

Honestly, while I disagree that he doesn't have the ability to play certain songs, I would prefer for MP to put his own spin to songs when played live.

I'm not suggesting that he should play the exact parts. In fact, I'm against hearing the same exact parts as they are on releases for live events. I reckon there should be something a little bit different to have a bit of variety in a live show.

I'm just saying that he doesn't have the ability to accurately execute some of MM's drum parts. These are very different drummers. Their heads are in different places in terms of their approach to the instrument.

[DTA]

They haven't, thank God.

And the band probably has come close to forgetting it, TBH, other than MP.

Even MP has. I saw a Facebook post of his reflecting on the RCMH and he said after finally playing TBoT, every DT song from his first run has now been played live. In addition to Raw Dog, You Or Me hasn't been played either.

[hefdaddy42]

Even MP has. I saw a Facebook post of his reflecting on the RCMH and he said after finally playing TBoT, every DT song from his first run has now been played live. In addition to Raw Dog, You Or Me hasn't been played either.

I saw that, and a fan posted something about Raw Dog, and MP responded saying he doesn't consider songs like Raw Dog, March of the Tyrant, Don't Look Past Me parts of the official DT discography, which is what he was actually talking about.

[TAC]

Even MP has. I saw a Facebook post of his reflecting on the RCMH and he said after finally playing TBoT, every DT song from his first run has now been played live. In addition to Raw Dog, You Or Me hasn't been played either.

Well, I don't know about You OR Me, but You NOT Me has been played.

[pg1067]

Well, I don't know about You OR Me, but You NOT Me has been played.

Yeah...and I doubt he'd count the vastly inferior demo version of the song.

I mean...they also haven't played Gnos Sdrawkcab live!

[TAC]

Yeah...and I doubt he'd count the vastly inferior demo version of the song.

If the demo version is inferior, then it must really suck. 

[pg1067]

If the demo version is inferior, then it must really suck. 

I don't buy into the party line that YNM is a terrible song.  It's really not.  However, after hearing so many folks claim that the Desmond Child edits ruined the song, I listened to the demo and realized that what JP did after meeting with Child made the song MUCH, MUCH better.

[Mosh]

Huh. I thought they did play You Or Me live at one point, or a version that incorporated it in some way, must be faulty memory.

I always thought it was strange that some were clamoring for Raw Dog. Even if MP had stayed in the band I don't think that song had a good chance of being played live.

[Kocak]

I don't buy into the party line that YNM is a terrible song.  It's really not.  However, after hearing so many folks claim that the Desmond Child edits ruined the song, I listened to the demo and realized that what JP did after meeting with Child made the song MUCH, MUCH better.

The FII album gets so much shit for no reason. It's one of DT's best albums.

[TAC]

The FII album gets so much shit for no reason. It's one of DT's best albums.

Not "no" reason.

[Kocak]

Not "no" reason.

Please, do elaborate. (No sarcasm, I'm genuinely interested in your take.)

[TAC]

Please, do elaborate. (No sarcasm, I'm genuinely interested in your take.)

I was a huge DT fan in real time for FII. My first impressions have pretty much lasted since then.

I know it has nothing to do with the music, but the first thing that was off was the Dream Theater font on the album cover was different. They didn't use what I thought was an awesome logo for something very generic.

My first listen to New Millenium, I thought they were trying too hard (and failing just as hard) to write another Metropolis. It didn't, and still doesn't, do anything for me.

Next was You Not me, and halfway through it, I was like WTF is this? My first thought in real time was.."Well, that was quick, the DT I love has sold out."

Hollow Years and Take Away My pain are certainly nice songs, but they aren't (in real time) Dream Theater songs. It's like they were writing for a hit.

Burning My Soul and Just Let Me Breathe are really just there. Again, not what the Dream Theater that I knew and loved was all about. I'm thinking I waited this long for this??
Hell's Kitchen, I can take or leave, and Anna Lee..I don't even remember how it goes.


It quickly became a three song album for me..Pweruvian Skies, Lines In The Sand, and Trial Of tears. All songs that I still love.

[Kocak]

I was a huge DT fan in real time for FII. My first impressions have pretty much lasted since then.

I know it has nothing to do with the music, but the first thing that was off was the Dream Theater font on the album cover was different. They didn't use what I thought was an awesome logo for something very generic.

My first listen to New Millenium, I thought they were trying too hard (and failing just as hard) to write another Metropolis. It didn't, and still doesn't, do anything for me.

Next was You Not me, and halfway through it, I was like WTF is this? My first thought in real time was.."Well, that was quick, the DT I love has sold out."

Hollow Years and Take Away My pain are certainly nice songs, but they aren't (in real time) Dream Theater songs. It's like they were writing for a hit.

Burning My Soul and Just Let Me Breathe are really just there. Again, not what the Dream Theater that I knew and loved was all about. I'm thinking I waited this long for this??
Hell's Kitchen, I can take or leave, and Anna Lee..I don't even remember how it goes.


It quickly became a three song album for me..Pweruvian Skies, Lines In The Sand, and Trial Of tears. All songs that I still love.

Fair enough. I hear you.

I think, I like the album because of all the variety in it. So what you don't like, is what I like in this case. I'm also a fan of Storm Thorgerson's work, so FII is my favourite DT album cover. Kevin Shirley wanted to push DT into territory that they were uncomfortable with. I also think that Derek Sherinian's DT sounds complimented the rest of DT music more than JR ever will, especially JP's guitar sound. Derek Sherinian really knows how to work with guitars.

On top of that, this album is, in my opinion, the starting point of the modern sonic character of Dream Theater. There is a certain sound that DT got on this particular album that impacted their sound up until Raw Dog - or MP's departure, if you will.

[TAC]

Fair enough. I hear you.

I think, I like the album because of all the variety in it. So what you don't like, is what I like in this case. I'm also a fan of Storm Thorgerson's work, so FII is my favourite DT album cover. Kevin Shirley wanted to push DT into territory that they were uncomfortable with. I also think that Derek Sherinian's DT sounds complimented the rest of DT music more than JR ever will, especially JP's guitar sound. Derek Sherinian really knows how to work with guitars.

On top of that, this album is, in my opinion, the starting point of the modern sonic character of Dream Theater. There is a certain sound that DT got on this particular album that impacted their sound up until Raw Dog - or MP's departure, if you will.

I think it's DT's best sounding album for sure. And Derek doesn't hurt the cause. I don't think he really adds to it, but he's not a detriment. And I'm good with variety. But I just found half of the album well below DT's established (by that point) standards.

[gzarruk]

There's not that many unplayed MM era songs

Surrender to Reason
Room 137
S2N
Out of Reach
Viper King
Transcending Time

False Awakening Suite should be listed too (it hasn't been played live). Will it ever be played? I don't think so, because it was written for and used only as the intro tape to their shows from that era... BUT it still is a full band instrumental they could totally play if they wanted to. In fact, given the section titles they gave it (Sleep Paralysis, Night Terrors, Lucid Dream) it would've been a perfect fit for the Parasomnia tour had they not written an actual overture for the album.

[TAC]

False Awakening Suite should be listed too (it hasn't been played live). Will it ever be played? I don't think so, because it was written for and used only as the intro tape to their shows from that era... BUT it still is a full band instrumental they could totally play if they wanted to. In fact, given the section titles they gave it (Sleep Paralysis, Night Terrors, Lucid Dream) it would've been a perfect fit for the Parasomnia tour had they not written an actual overture for the album.

It'd be cool if they used it as the intro tape before the Parasomnia shows.


Of course, MP could count that as the token MM song for the show.

Kidding!

[gzarruk]

   

[MirrorMask]

It'd be cool if they used it as the intro tape before the Parasomnia shows.


Of course, MP could count that as the token MM song for the show.

Kidding!

Well, kidding aside, the idea is not even that wacky, but being pumped up by FAS and then sitting through a minute of the quiet intro of Morpheus before the song actually starts is a bit anticlimatic. Maybe if they use FAS as a "last song before lights go out", as the Psycho theme before Metropolis currently, but if they use it as a proper intro once the lights go down, it's gonna be a bummer to follow up with ambient noises for a minute.

[TAC]

Well, kidding aside, the idea is not even that wacky, but being pumped up by FAS and then sitting through a minute of the quiet intro of Morpheus before the song actually starts is a bit anticlimatic. Maybe if they use FAS as a "last song before lights go out", as the Psycho theme before Metropolis currently, but if they use it as a proper intro once the lights go down, it's gonna be a bummer to follow up with ambient noises for a minute.

I don't know. It'll be part of the buildup. The beginning of Orpheus would likely be on the video screen anyway so i don't feel like there'd be a big drop in energy.

[pg1067]

The FII album gets so much shit for no reason. It's one of DT's best albums.

Nothing in the history of the universe has ever happened "for no reason."  There's always a reason.  In this case, since we're talking about a musical work, it all comes down to opinion.  FII is not generally regarded as one of DT's best albums.  In my case, I'd agree that it's one of DT's 12 best albums because I rank it at #12 out of 15 (although that's likely to change to #13 out of 16 once I add Parasomnia to the mix).

The reasons why FII isn't highly regarded are quite varied.  For some, it's a simple as the fact that MP has shit on the album and the process by which it was made.  It's unquestionably a bit more "commercial" and less "proggy" than its predecessors and the albums that followed it.  There are also several songs that lack a real "metal" edge, and some folks don't like that.  Some folks also don't care for Derek Sherinian's style.  I like several of the songs (HK, HY, AL and TOT), but I also think songs like NM and JLMB are among the worst songs the band ever did (despite the former being extremely "proggy").  I also think that, while LITS is a solid song, it is ruined by the guest vocals in the chorus.

I was a huge DT fan in real time for FII. My first impressions have pretty much lasted since then.

...

My first listen to New Millenium, I thought they were trying too hard (and failing just as hard) to write another Metropolis. It didn't, and still doesn't, do anything for me.

Next was You Not me, and halfway through it, I was like WTF is this? My first thought in real time was.."Well, that was quick, the DT I love has sold out."

Hollow Years and Take Away My pain are certainly nice songs, but they aren't (in real time) Dream Theater songs. It's like they were writing for a hit.

Burning My Soul and Just Let Me Breathe are really just there. Again, not what the Dream Theater that I knew and loved was all about. I'm thinking I waited this long for this??
Hell's Kitchen, I can take or leave, and Anna Lee..I don't even remember how it goes.

Most of this is true for me.  I can still remember getting the album shortly after my wife and I moved into a new apartment.  We had boxes all over the living room, and I excitedly put the new DT album in the CD player.  NM started promisingly, but it just meandered endlessly and never really went anywhere.  My initial thoughts about YNM were the same, although I've grown to enjoy it.  Peruvian Skies was just generic "METAL!!!!" and sounded like something any number of bands could have done.  I liked Hollow Years from the start, but if that was the best that this album had to offer, it's not a good sign.  At that point, I was a bit fatigued that nothing had really grabbed me.  Where was the next Metropolis or Learning to Live or Caught in a Web or Scarred?  Keep in mind that we were coming off the ACOS EP, which was incredible, and FII just fell flat in comparison to what came before it.