Author Topic: Your Controversial Opinions on DT  (Read 699199 times)

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Offline KevShmev

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10815 on: June 22, 2021, 09:02:29 AM »
He can't show his work for such a terrible opinion, but that is pretty normal when you consider the source.

that's a bit hostile, don't you think? :-\

Considering someone called a part of Dream Theater's music "meaningless drivel," which feels against the rules :p, nah.  Probably a bit too direct on my part, I'll give you that.  I will digress. :)

Offline pg1067

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10816 on: June 22, 2021, 09:30:02 AM »
While I'm not willing to go as far as "meaningless drivel", I have, in this thread, said that I find the fawning over Myung's lyrics to be quizzical.   I'm not suggesting that JM's lyrics are bad, but they aren't at the level for me that they are for others.  As I've noted, there are frequently posts, pre-album release, along the lines of "Can't wait for this record!  Myung is writing lyrics!  It's going to be epic!".  Uh, ok.  That is, to me, like saying "The mail is coming today!  I can't wait! It's going to be epic!"     They may well be, but the simple fact that JM is writing them isn't really the determinant there.

I agree with that.  I think it all dates back to the time leading up to ADTOE, and it was announced that JM would be writing lyrics for one of the song and people lost their ever-loving minds.  At that point, JM had written precisely four songs worth of lyrics:  Learning to Live, Lifting Shadows, Trial of Tears and Fatal Tragedy.  And yet folks acted like he was the second coming of ____ (insert name of some epic lyric poet).  My GUESS is that it's because all of those are fairly highly regarded DT songs, with LTL being routinely a top three song and TOT being almost universally regarded as the best song on FII.

But the notion that all JM lyrics are "meaningless drivel" is unsupportable poo.
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Offline gzarruk

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10817 on: June 22, 2021, 09:48:15 AM »
I agree with that.  I think it all dates back to the time leading up to ADTOE, and it was announced that JM would be writing lyrics for one of the song and people lost their ever-loving minds.  At that point, JM had written precisely four songs worth of lyrics:  Learning to Live, Lifting Shadows, Trial of Tears and Fatal Tragedy.

To be fair, he also wrote March of the Tyrant and verse 2 of Take the Time :P
It sounds like, "ruk, ruk, ruk, ruk, ruk." Instead of the more pleasing kick drum sound of, "gzarruk, gzarruk, gzarruk, gzarruk."

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10818 on: June 22, 2021, 03:50:33 PM »
I'm not a fan of Breaking All Illusions at all. Don't think the song is that great. It's standard DT.

But the lyrics are typical John Myung. Just well meaning platitudes all strung together.

" It'll be ok. Close your Eyes. Breathe in. See your fate. The light will enter. Things'll will work out. It's ok. Embrace the moment.."


Offline Ben_Jamin

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10819 on: June 22, 2021, 03:57:14 PM »
S2N is one of JMs good lyrics because it's about the Wow Signal.
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Offline Adami

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10820 on: June 22, 2021, 05:02:32 PM »
I'm not a fan of Breaking All Illusions at all. Don't think the song is that great. It's standard DT.

But the lyrics are typical John Myung. Just well meaning platitudes all strung together.

" It'll be ok. Close your Eyes. Breathe in. See your fate. The light will enter. Things'll will work out. It's ok. Embrace the moment.."

See, that's how I see most modern JP lyrics, who also helped write that song lyrically. I do love the song and agree that modern JM lyrics are meh. But I still think his few older songs are pretty great, though I get it if they aren't for you.
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Offline RMGadelha

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10821 on: June 22, 2021, 06:07:40 PM »
And DT15 is apparently "full of positivity" xD. I'm not against it though, I just hope it still has some darker moments.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2021, 06:13:28 PM by RMGadelha »

Offline geeeemo

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10822 on: June 22, 2021, 07:10:20 PM »
To really feel the joy in life
You must suffer through the pain...

Offline Dream Team

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10823 on: June 22, 2021, 08:37:00 PM »
There’s plenty of darkness in the world. Positivity is a good thing.

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10824 on: June 22, 2021, 08:46:07 PM »
I'm not a fan of Breaking All Illusions at all. Don't think the song is that great. It's standard DT.

But the lyrics are typical John Myung. Just well meaning platitudes all strung together.

" It'll be ok. Close your Eyes. Breathe in. See your fate. The light will enter. Things'll will work out. It's ok. Embrace the moment.."

See, that's how I see most modern JP lyrics, who also helped write that song lyrically. I do love the song and agree that modern JM lyrics are meh. But I still think his few older songs are pretty great, though I get it if they aren't for you.

This. You're right.

I think if I count the songs of the band that I really like the lyrics, I don't even get to ten.

Offline Adami

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10825 on: June 22, 2021, 08:58:50 PM »
To really feel the joy in life
You must suffer through the pain...

Yea. Can’t get into that stuff at all. Ah well.
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Offline RMGadelha

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10826 on: June 22, 2021, 10:30:53 PM »
There’s plenty of darkness in the world. Positivity is a good thing.

I agree, but I still like my share of dark songs :)

Offline ReaPsTA

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10827 on: June 23, 2021, 07:34:41 AM »
And DT15 is apparently "full of positivity" xD. I'm not against it though, I just hope it still has some darker moments.

Dream Theater's normally at their best when they're being depressing. But maybe there's too much of that lately and this will be the antidote
Take a chance you may die
Over and over again

Offline Stadler

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10828 on: June 23, 2021, 08:16:56 AM »
I'm not sure I agree with that notion that DT is "better" when dark and depressing.  I'm sort of out of that phase of my life, and I find a lot of DT music to be, if not uplifting (that's Neal Morse), then at least relatively positive.

Offline Vmadera00

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10829 on: June 23, 2021, 08:22:22 AM »
We need more Viper King type of songs on DT15; fun and energetic. I hope they play it on the next tour  :metal

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10830 on: June 23, 2021, 08:25:06 AM »
We need more Viper King type of songs on DT15; fun and energetic. I hope they play it on the next tour  :metal

Definitely, that song was a pleasant surprise for me and deserved to be more than just a bonus track.
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Offline RodrigoAltaf

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10831 on: June 23, 2021, 09:10:56 AM »
We need more Viper King type of songs on DT15; fun and energetic. I hope they play it on the next tour  :metal

Definitely, that song was a pleasant surprise for me and deserved to be more than just a bonus track.

100%!!!

Offline TheCountOfNYC

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10832 on: June 23, 2021, 10:06:28 AM »
We need more Viper King type of songs on DT15; fun and energetic. I hope they play it on the next tour  :metal

Definitely, that song was a pleasant surprise for me and deserved to be more than just a bonus track.

It was a bonus track because stylistically it didn’t fit with the rest of the album, but I like to think of it like a song playing over the end credits of a movie. A fun jam after the last hour of more serious music (Owen Wilson notwithstanding).
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Offline cramx3

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10833 on: June 23, 2021, 10:08:26 AM »
+1 on the Viper King love

Offline RodrigoAltaf

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10834 on: June 23, 2021, 10:09:01 AM »
We need more Viper King type of songs on DT15; fun and energetic. I hope they play it on the next tour  :metal

Definitely, that song was a pleasant surprise for me and deserved to be more than just a bonus track.

It was a bonus track because stylistically it didn’t fit with the rest of the album, but I like to think of it like a song playing over the end credits of a movie. A fun jam after the last hour of more serious music (Owen Wilson notwithstanding).

I was hoping they would play this one as the first song on the encore of that tour.

Offline geeeemo

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10835 on: June 23, 2021, 11:05:45 AM »
I like my metal music to be on the darker side - more with the sound than the lyrics. Most DT music for me isn't a downer, just thoughtful and many times a song ends on a positive note (i.e., AWE, BW, ITPoE,) leaves it open or tells a story. I just don't care for metal in all sorts of major keys. Or even the opposite is ok. Like in the song 6 Degrees. Happy sound, bummer lyrics.  And I am certainly not interested in a pandemic, judgey, we are all better people or should be, blah, blah. I need to be taken away from all that crud.

Offline RMGadelha

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10836 on: June 23, 2021, 11:11:56 AM »
Oh yeah, I loved Viper King! It felt really nostalgic! I would love to see more of that.

Offline Volante99

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10837 on: June 23, 2021, 12:53:46 PM »
We need more Viper King type of songs on DT15; fun and energetic. I hope they play it on the next tour  :metal

Definitely, that song was a pleasant surprise for me and deserved to be more than just a bonus track.

It was a bonus track because stylistically it didn’t fit with the rest of the album, but I like to think of it like a song playing over the end credits of a movie. A fun jam after the last hour of more serious music (Owen Wilson notwithstanding).

I was hoping they would play this one as the first song on the encore of that tour.

Viper King is in the bottom 3 songs they've ever done. Maybe the worst?

It's "nostalgic" in the same way your creepy uncle is desperately clinging to the last strands of his hair with a combover and still wearing that Styx "Cyclorama" Tour shirt with ketchup stains.

Pure "Dad" metal.

Offline TAC

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10838 on: June 23, 2021, 01:07:29 PM »
Dad Metal FTW!! :metal
would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
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Offline Stadler

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10839 on: June 23, 2021, 01:10:33 PM »
If that's "dad metal", I'm not letting ANYONE look at my CD collection....   :) :)

Offline TAC

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10840 on: June 23, 2021, 01:11:19 PM »
That's Granddad's Metal! :lol
would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
Winger Theater Forums................or WTF.  ;D
Nice one Tim, I have great faith in you, as the fogey with the best taste.

Offline cramx3

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10841 on: June 23, 2021, 01:20:27 PM »

Offline Ben_Jamin

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10842 on: June 23, 2021, 04:52:55 PM »
I like my metal music to be on the darker side - more with the sound than the lyrics. Most DT music for me isn't a downer, just thoughtful and many times a song ends on a positive note (i.e., AWE, BW, ITPoE,) leaves it open or tells a story. I just don't care for metal in all sorts of major keys. Or even the opposite is ok. Like in the song 6 Degrees. Happy sound, bummer lyrics.  And I am certainly not interested in a pandemic, judgey, we are all better people or should be, blah, blah. I need to be taken away from all that crud.

Ahh...I see. You use music as an escape from reality. Nothing wrong with that. And there are other great bands and music that will take that escape from reality to the next level.

Dream Theater is not only that type of band, they are also a band that can make lyrics about various type of subjects. How the music makes the lyricist feel at the time, is how they will determine the subject of their words. On D/T, the one who wrote the lyrics chose the instrumental song that spoke to them most while it was being worked on. JLB or JP saying something like "I like this, I'm gonna take this one and write the lyrics."

S2N was based off a riff from JM, and the song wasn't worked on until the very end. It seems like they asked JM to write lyrics to this as a sort of a make-up for holding off on this song until the very end of the sessions.

Mangini came in with most of Room 137, and it was a great opportunity for them to let Mangini have a chance at writing lyrics. Room 137, has some great vocal rhythms within the groove and the rhythm structure. Which JP complimented on, as MM being a drummer, has more of a sense to the rhythm of the words, more so than JP does, and can utilize this to create some interesting rhythms with the melodies and lyrics within the entire song structure. I quite enjoy how these lyrics do work within the rhythm of the song, especially the kick drums. I am really looking forward to this song live, and I think it would be a good energetic song live.
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Offline Cool Chris

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10843 on: June 23, 2021, 10:48:31 PM »
Viper King is in the bottom 3 songs they've ever done. Maybe the worst?

It's "nostalgic" in the same way your creepy uncle is desperately clinging to the last strands of his hair with a combover and still wearing that Styx "Cyclorama" Tour shirt with ketchup stains.

Pure "Dad" metal.

I don't know if I agree with all this, but it made me laugh.

The intro is solid, and the chorus is great. The rest of the song is just sorta... there.
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Offline wolfking

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10844 on: June 23, 2021, 10:56:40 PM »
Yeah, Viper King is shit.  Possibly the only time I wish I purchased the regular edition over a deluxe.  Ruins a wonderful album.

Offline Enigmachine

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10845 on: June 24, 2021, 02:59:02 AM »
James' vocals are absolutely buried in the mix with that effect on them and he really could've done with a vocal style that was much more gritty with that one. Because of that, it really just sounds botched to me. I don't mind it musically, although the verses kind of feel a bit... lost sometimes. I get the feeling that Dream Theater aren't used to doing this sort of bluesy Deep Purple stuff for a full original song and I think in Viper King, it really shows. I also think that the tempo shifts feel janky and that it's overall kind of underdeveloped. I'm not at all surprised that this was a bonus track. In the context of it just being a lighthearted jam that isn't given the weight of being a track on the official album it's fine, but I'm glad that D/T as an album is officially just Untethered Angel to Pale Blue Dot.

Offline JLa

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10846 on: June 24, 2021, 03:46:40 AM »
About this whole lyrics thing, I think JM usually does good ones, but as a whole I liked their lyrics in their earlier albums better. I liked when the lyrics were more poetic and "mysterious", it wasn't that obvious what they were writing about. Take something like "Surrounded" and compare it to "The Count of Tuscany" .. (ok, that's the worst example). They're getting back into the game with the more recent releases, though.

Offline Volante99

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10847 on: June 24, 2021, 04:08:03 AM »
Agree with EnigmaMachine- If I’m being completely honest, my main issue with Viper King is JLB’s vocal delivery. He’s shouting it out in his upper register throughout the whole damn song and it’s just not “pleasing” to my ears. This is just not the type of song that plays to his strengths anymore. If a Russell Allen or Jeff Scott Soto was belting it out I’d probably find it less offensive.

For me, AT BEST, the whole song sounds like a vehicle for a JP solo in a straight ahead rocker context- and he certainly delivers, but let’s face it; JP can do that sort of thing with his eyes closed and an arm tied behind his back.

Offline Volante99

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10848 on: June 24, 2021, 04:17:17 AM »
While I wouldn’t call it “mindless drivel” JM can certainly get over indulgent with his lyrics, but so can JP and MP. None of the boys are exactly Robert Frost or Bob Dylan reincarnated, here. But Myung is probably the most consistent of the bunch, with JLB certainly deserving some praise as well.

To be honest though, with very few exceptions, lyrics have never been high on the list of things that excite my about DT.

Offline Stadler

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10849 on: June 24, 2021, 06:39:09 AM »
Agree with EnigmaMachine- If I’m being completely honest, my main issue with Viper King is JLB’s vocal delivery. He’s shouting it out in his upper register throughout the whole damn song and it’s just not “pleasing” to my ears. This is just not the type of song that plays to his strengths anymore. If a Russell Allen or Jeff Scott Soto was belting it out I’d probably find it less offensive.

For me, AT BEST, the whole song sounds like a vehicle for a JP solo in a straight ahead rocker context- and he certainly delivers, but let’s face it; JP can do that sort of thing with his eyes closed and an arm tied behind his back.

Oh, god, please, no.  No Russell Allen or Jeff Scott Soto.  Neither one can hold James' jock on their best day, IMO.   I do NOT understand why those two keep getting brought up in the context of Dream Theater (and Mike appears to be enamored of both, or at least was).   I mean, I guess I do, but not for me.