Author Topic: Your Controversial Opinions on DT  (Read 696894 times)

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Offline darkshade

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10675 on: June 11, 2021, 04:32:37 PM »
They seem to only want to include a little of each and keep the overall vibe METUL!!! for commercial reasons I assume.

...Or because the members (John Petrucci in particular) generally like metal quite a bit. Not sure why there has to be a ulterior motive to it. Just because you prefer their sound one way, doesn't mean the band are deliberately trying to compromise it when they go in a different direction.

Because I feel like metal became the dominant style of the band's albums, whereas on earlier albums (like, pre-Systematic Chaos) metal was just one aspect of the band's sound. Part of the reason I ever got into the band was because of their heavier songs, but I stuck around because of how diverse their catalog was (is), compared to recent efforts. The Astonishing had the right idea but I didn't care for the execution overall, nor the long-winded length of it all.

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10676 on: June 11, 2021, 08:56:24 PM »
No song has aged worse in the Dream Theater catalog than The Glass Prison.
would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
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Offline Zook

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10677 on: June 11, 2021, 09:35:45 PM »
No song has aged worse in the Dream Theater catalog than The Glass Prison.

no u

Offline ReaPsTA

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10678 on: June 11, 2021, 10:40:27 PM »
No song has aged worse in the Dream Theater catalog than The Glass Prison.

???????????
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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10679 on: June 12, 2021, 12:43:45 AM »
No song has aged worse in the Dream Theater catalog than The Glass Prison.

Ooo, that is controversial.  ;D

(I love it like I did the first time I heard it. Tons of heavy energy without sounding like they're trying too hard to be dark/brutal (cough TOT cough)
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Offline Enigmachine

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10680 on: June 12, 2021, 03:58:05 AM »
Because I feel like metal became the dominant style of the band's albums, whereas on earlier albums (like, pre-Systematic Chaos) metal was just one aspect of the band's sound.

WDaDU and Awake are arguably more dominantly metallic than most of the band's 2007-present output, though. We've been over this before in how D/T is the only one of those that really stands out in just how much metal there is. Even then, it's matched proportionally by When Dream and Day Unite. If DT12 had subtler production values, then I think it'd be noticed how it's actually not that overwhelmingly metal. I do think that it's less heavy than Awake, on balance. Plus... the obvious mention of Train of Thought. Even if it's atypical, it's still an album that shifted the balance of their discography and makes the heavier parts of Systematic Chaos (and let's not forget that they're only parts, given that this is the same album with Repentence, The Ministry of Lost Souls and Prophets of War) less of a surprise. Hell, even if I were to concede that DT12 is at least a very sonically intense album that highlights its metallic elements, that still leaves both ADToE and TA as albums that subvert this supposed trend. I'm also not convinced of Black Clouds' place in this context, given that Wither, The Best of Times and the majority of The Count of Tuscany take up a pretty sizable chunk of the album.

Even if this was true however, I think it'd still be a bit silly to insinuate that a shift to a heavier sound would be "for commercial reasons" and that's my main gripe with this. That sentence reeks of entitlement to me, with the implication that because the band aren't going in a direction you want them to, that they're somehow lacking in integrity. One thing I feel as though I should mention as well when this sort of thing comes up... is that metal doesn't necessitate a lack of variety. Afterlife, S2N, The Mirror, The Enemy Inside, Constant Motion, The Root of All Evil, A Rite of Passage and At Wit's End are all metal songs, but they're not exactly homogenous. Perhaps D/T might sound like a blur of metal to some people, but the differences between songs like Pale Blue Dot and Fall Into the Light are clear as day to me.

Offline lovethedrake

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10681 on: June 12, 2021, 04:43:52 AM »
No song has aged worse in the Dream Theater catalog than The Glass Prison.

Couldn’t disagree with this statement more… I think the glass prison is one of those songs that gets better every single time you listen to it.  An incredibly fun, unique, creative piece of music coming from one of the greatest bands at their absolute creative peak. 

Offline lovethedrake

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10682 on: June 12, 2021, 04:51:29 AM »
Because I feel like metal became the dominant style of the band's albums, whereas on earlier albums (like, pre-Systematic Chaos) metal was just one aspect of the band's sound.

WDaDU and Awake are arguably more dominantly metallic than most of the band's 2007-present output, though. We've been over this before in how D/T is the only one of those that really stands out in just how much metal there is. Even then, it's matched proportionally by When Dream and Day Unite. If DT12 had subtler production values, then I think it'd be noticed how it's actually not that overwhelmingly metal. I do think that it's less heavy than Awake, on balance. Plus... the obvious mention of Train of Thought. Even if it's atypical, it's still an album that shifted the balance of their discography and makes the heavier parts of Systematic Chaos (and let's not forget that they're only parts, given that this is the same album with Repentence, The Ministry of Lost Souls and Prophets of War) less of a surprise. Hell, even if I were to concede that DT12 is at least a very sonically intense album that highlights its metallic elements, that still leaves both ADToE and TA as albums that subvert this supposed trend. I'm also not convinced of Black Clouds' place in this context, given that Wither, The Best of Times and the majority of The Count of Tuscany take up a pretty sizable chunk of the album.

Even if this was true however, I think it'd still be a bit silly to insinuate that a shift to a heavier sound would be "for commercial reasons" and that's my main gripe with this. That sentence reeks of entitlement to me, with the implication that because the band aren't going in a direction you want them to, that they're somehow lacking in integrity. One thing I feel as though I should mention as well when this sort of thing comes up... is that metal doesn't necessitate a lack of variety. Afterlife, S2N, The Mirror, The Enemy Inside, Constant Motion, The Root of All Evil, A Rite of Passage and At Wit's End are all metal songs, but they're not exactly homogenous. Perhaps D/T might sound like a blur of metal to some people, but the differences between songs like Pale Blue Dot and Fall Into the Light are clear as day to me.

I think there’s a huge difference between 80’s metal and modern metal, especially in production values.

Dream Theater has always been half of a metal band but the influences many fell in love with were hair metal bands, Metallica, Judas Priest, rush etc…. And not some of the more modern sounding bands today that have completely different production, growling vocals, etc…

I don’t think Dream Theater adapting their sound to stay with the times means that they don’t have integrity…. It means they are smart businessmen who have figured out a way to still make great music while not becoming “that old band from the 90’s”.   

To me so much of it has to do with production… Im a prog guy and an 80’s metal guy but find D/T to have the warmest production in many years.  Whereas SC has a thin, stale, metallic production.  I never listen to ITPOE because I hate how it sounds…however that song is amazing live when free from its stale production.

Plus on D/T they were bringing back some of that 80’s vibe with songs like Out of Reach, Viper King and Fall Into the Light (especially mid section).  So despite me being a prog/80’s metal guy I really like D/T.

The TOT-ADTOE run just didn’t have that vibe at all IMO.

« Last Edit: June 12, 2021, 05:02:03 AM by lovethedrake »

Offline lovethedrake

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10683 on: June 12, 2021, 04:55:24 AM »
Ignore this one

Online TheCountOfNYC

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10684 on: June 12, 2021, 05:41:57 AM »
No song has aged worse in the Dream Theater catalog than The Glass Prison.

The Glass Prison is interesting for me. I love the first eleven minutes and the last minute, but the two minutes in between the solos and the ending vocals are an absolute drag.
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Offline Trav86

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10685 on: June 12, 2021, 07:32:37 AM »
No song has aged worse in the Dream Theater catalog than The Glass Prison.

I agree with this. I like parts of it, but it’s kind of messy and I’m exhausted by the time I get to the end of it. And This Dying Soul is like they said “ how can we highlight the worst things about The Glass Prison, and make a song out of that”.  It was the beginning of their phase where they just soloed and soloed ….and soloed.

I always felt like I was weird because it seems like such a fan favorite when, to me, it’s the worst song on SDOIT.
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Online TheCountOfNYC

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10686 on: June 12, 2021, 08:50:53 AM »
No song has aged worse in the Dream Theater catalog than The Glass Prison.

I agree with this. I like parts of it, but it’s kind of messy and I’m exhausted by the time I get to the end of it. And This Dying Soul is like they said “ how can we highlight the worst things about The Glass Prison, and make a song out of that”.  It was the beginning of their phase where they just soloed and soloed ….and soloed.

I always felt like I was weird because it seems like such a fan favorite when, to me, it’s the worst song on SDOIT.

I wouldn’t go that far. The Great Debate and Misunderstood are definitely worse. This is actually going to lead into maybe my most controversial opinion:

I don’t get the love for Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence (the album). It’s a great album don’t get me wrong, but certainly not top four. Blind Faith, Disappear, and the title track are all good enough to keep it in the top half of their discography, but The Glass Prison is overrated, Misunderstood is good but that ending is horrendous, and The Great Debate is one of the band’s worst songs. And while we’re at it, Awake is kind of overrated as well. I have both albums as my number 6 and 7 ranked Dream Theater records, and I’ll take Octavarium and A Dramatic Turn of Events over both of them any day.
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Offline lovethedrake

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10687 on: June 12, 2021, 08:54:12 AM »
No song has aged worse in the Dream Theater catalog than The Glass Prison.

I agree with this. I like parts of it, but it’s kind of messy and I’m exhausted by the time I get to the end of it. And This Dying Soul is like they said “ how can we highlight the worst things about The Glass Prison, and make a song out of that”.  It was the beginning of their phase where they just soloed and soloed ….and soloed.



I always felt like I was weird because it seems like such a fan favorite when, to me, it’s the worst song on SDOIT.

I wouldn’t go that far. The Great Debate and Misunderstood are definitely worse. This is actually going to lead into maybe my most controversial opinion:

I don’t get the love for Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence (the album). It’s a great album don’t get me wrong, but certainly not top four. Blind Faith, Disappear, and the title track are all good enough to keep it in the top half of their discography, but The Glass Prison is overrated, Misunderstood is good but that ending is horrendous, and The Great Debate is one of the band’s worst songs. And while we’re at it, Awake is kind of overrated as well. I have both albums as my number 6 and 7 ranked Dream Theater records, and I’ll take Octavarium and A Dramatic Turn of Events over both of them any day.

A persons taste is a crazy thing… ADTOE and Octavarium are two of my least favorite DT albums and SDOIT is my third favorite but I consider to be in the “big 3” with scenes and images.

I like awake but it has some clunkers… awake is top 5 for me.

I don’t really understand the hate for the Great Debate unless it’s a lyrical dislike… I think the mid section of that song is awesome.  James sounds amazing and the solo kicks ass.

Offline geeeemo

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10688 on: June 12, 2021, 09:06:53 AM »
I love The Great Debate. It was one of my first favorite discoveries after my initial finding of Dream Theater. I love it to this day. It has all the elements I love about DT. An interesting topic and lyrics, metal, varied vocals, all of it. It is my favorite song on the album. Of course the song Six degrees is up there, but I have to be in the right mood or it will make me cry.

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10689 on: June 12, 2021, 09:28:14 AM »
No song has aged worse in the Dream Theater catalog than The Glass Prison.

I agree with this. I like parts of it, but it’s kind of messy and I’m exhausted by the time I get to the end of it. And This Dying Soul is like they said “ how can we highlight the worst things about The Glass Prison, and make a song out of that”.  It was the beginning of their phase where they just soloed and soloed ….and soloed.

I always felt like I was weird because it seems like such a fan favorite when, to me, it’s the worst song on SDOIT.

Well, but I love This Dying Soul though. It’s way more interesting than TGP.
would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10690 on: June 12, 2021, 09:37:22 AM »
I don't understand the hate for The Great Debate, it's a great song. I love how it isn't a big epic but I feel the same way when I listen to it: it takes me on a journey  :metal
It sounds like, "ruk, ruk, ruk, ruk, ruk." Instead of the more pleasing kick drum sound of, "gzarruk, gzarruk, gzarruk, gzarruk."

Offline Enigmachine

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10691 on: June 12, 2021, 09:40:32 AM »
I think there’s a huge difference between 80’s metal and modern metal, especially in production values.

Dream Theater has always been half of a metal band but the influences many fell in love with were hair metal bands, Metallica, Judas Priest, rush etc…. And not some of the more modern sounding bands today that have completely different production, growling vocals, etc…

That is true, the nature of their metallic elements has certainly changed. Still, people complained about them sounding too much like Metallica at points on Systematic Chaos and Black Clouds, so I don't think faithfulness to their influences was lost there either. I don't really think there has been any album where the degree of modern metal has been absolutely overwhelming either (other ToT maybe), though I guess my tastes lean in that direction anyway.

Online HOF

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10692 on: June 12, 2021, 10:35:37 AM »
I thought the Twelve Step Suite was a big drag on DT's post-SFAM output. They should have done it all at once and gotten it out of the way. But it's not like those were all great albums outside of it (IMControversialO).
« Last Edit: June 12, 2021, 10:52:18 AM by HOF »

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10693 on: June 12, 2021, 10:49:22 AM »
I thought Twelve Step Suite was a big drag on DT's post-SFAM output. They should have done it all at once and gotten it out of the way. But it's not like those were all great albums outside of it (IMControversialO).

Definitely agree with this. Two albums at most should've seen it completed, with each part being significantly edited to avoid some of the excess repetition. I know MP needed to make sure each song was long enough to justify including all 12 steps and give them adequate time, but it just created a series of subpar songs imo.

Offline Dedalus

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10694 on: June 12, 2021, 12:45:04 PM »
I thought the Twelve Step Suite was a big drag on DT's post-SFAM output. They should have done it all at once and gotten it out of the way. But it's not like those were all great albums outside of it (IMControversialO).

When they released Six Degrees I thought "what a fucking idea!"

At Octavarium I was already thinking "It seemed like a better idea of what it really was".

At BC&SL: "Someone get this shit out of my way."

Offline KevShmev

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10695 on: June 12, 2021, 01:05:38 PM »
I don't understand the hate for The Great Debate, it's a great song. I love how it isn't a big epic but I feel the same way when I listen to it: it takes me on a journey  :metal

To make a sports analogy, The Great Debate is like that athlete that is never one of the absolute best, never wins a title, never wins an MVP, etc., but has a very good consistent career.  The Great Debate is really good the whole way through, but never really has that "OMG, this is so amazing" vibe, at least not for me, and with a song that long, you usually need at least one of two of those moments.  The Great Debate is like the Philip Rivers of the DT catalogue.  :biggrin:

Online Stadler

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10696 on: June 12, 2021, 01:26:26 PM »
I don't understand the hate for The Great Debate, it's a great song. I love how it isn't a big epic but I feel the same way when I listen to it: it takes me on a journey  :metal

To make a sports analogy, The Great Debate is like that athlete that is never one of the absolute best, never wins a title, never wins an MVP, etc., but has a very good consistent career.  The Great Debate is really good the whole way through, but never really has that "OMG, this is so amazing" vibe, at least not for me, and with a song that long, you usually need at least one of two of those moments.  The Great Debate is like the Philip Rivers of the DT catalogue.  :biggrin:

Way to ruin The Great Debate for me.  :) :) :)

Online TAC

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10697 on: June 12, 2021, 01:33:19 PM »
I don't understand the hate for The Great Debate, it's a great song. I love how it isn't a big epic but I feel the same way when I listen to it: it takes me on a journey  :metal

To make a sports analogy, The Great Debate is like that athlete that is never one of the absolute best, never wins a title, never wins an MVP, etc., but has a very good consistent career.  The Great Debate is really good the whole way through, but never really has that "OMG, this is so amazing" vibe, at least not for me, and with a song that long, you usually need at least one of two of those moments.  The Great Debate is like the Philip Rivers of the DT catalogue.  :biggrin:

...or Tuukka Rask..
would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
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Nice one Tim, I have great faith in you, as the fogey with the best taste.

Offline KevShmev

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10698 on: June 12, 2021, 01:40:09 PM »
I don't understand the hate for The Great Debate, it's a great song. I love how it isn't a big epic but I feel the same way when I listen to it: it takes me on a journey  :metal

To make a sports analogy, The Great Debate is like that athlete that is never one of the absolute best, never wins a title, never wins an MVP, etc., but has a very good consistent career.  The Great Debate is really good the whole way through, but never really has that "OMG, this is so amazing" vibe, at least not for me, and with a song that long, you usually need at least one of two of those moments.  The Great Debate is like the Philip Rivers of the DT catalogue.  :biggrin:

Way to ruin The Great Debate for me.  :) :) :)

I'd be lying if the "Bill is gonna love this analogy" thought didn't run through my head for a moment when I was typing that.  :biggrin:

Online HOF

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10699 on: June 12, 2021, 01:54:46 PM »
I agree The Great Debate lacks a certain something. I don’t mind it, it has a cool guitar solo, the drumming is pretty cool. Lyrics are a little iffy, as is the chorus. It’s probably the third best song on disc one for me (after Blind Faith and Misunderstood).

The one whose popularity I don’t quite understand is Disappear. Felt like a failed attempt to re-write Space Dye Vest in the vein of Radiohead.

Offline Skeever

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10700 on: June 12, 2021, 01:58:09 PM »
They seem to only want to include a little of each and keep the overall vibe METUL!!! for commercial reasons I assume.

...Or because the members (John Petrucci in particular) generally like metal quite a bit. Not sure why there has to be a ulterior motive to it. Just because you prefer their sound one way, doesn't mean the band are deliberately trying to compromise it when they go in a different direction.

Because I feel like metal became the dominant style of the band's albums, whereas on earlier albums (like, pre-Systematic Chaos) metal was just one aspect of the band's sound. Part of the reason I ever got into the band was because of their heavier songs, but I stuck around because of how diverse their catalog was (is), compared to recent efforts. The Astonishing had the right idea but I didn't care for the execution overall, nor the long-winded length of it all.

I think this is a good point. I'd like to hear them do a less guitar-centered album but given how Petrucci is pretty much the main attraction of the band I doubt it would happen.

Offline Cool Chris

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10701 on: June 12, 2021, 02:05:26 PM »
The Great Debate is like the Philip Rivers of the DT catalogue.  :biggrin:

It is analysis like this that keeps me coming back to this forum after all these years.
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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10702 on: June 12, 2021, 02:47:43 PM »
No song has aged worse in the Dream Theater catalog than The Glass Prison.

I think every song on Images and Words sounds horribly dated...

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10703 on: June 12, 2021, 04:00:35 PM »
Tastes are indeed crazy. SDOIT is my favourite DT album, lol.

Offline Trav86

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10704 on: June 12, 2021, 04:07:01 PM »
I thought the Twelve Step Suite was a big drag on DT's post-SFAM output. They should have done it all at once and gotten it out of the way. But it's not like those were all great albums outside of it (IMControversialO).

When they released Six Degrees I thought "what a fucking idea!"

At Octavarium I was already thinking "It seemed like a better idea of what it really was".

At BC&SL: "Someone get this shit out of my way."

Exactly.
Can't we find the minds
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Offline Trav86

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10705 on: June 12, 2021, 04:07:28 PM »
No song has aged worse in the Dream Theater catalog than The Glass Prison.

I agree with this. I like parts of it, but it’s kind of messy and I’m exhausted by the time I get to the end of it. And This Dying Soul is like they said “ how can we highlight the worst things about The Glass Prison, and make a song out of that”.  It was the beginning of their phase where they just soloed and soloed ….and soloed.

I always felt like I was weird because it seems like such a fan favorite when, to me, it’s the worst song on SDOIT.

Well, but I love This Dying Soul though. It’s way more interesting than TGP.

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Offline darkshade

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10706 on: June 12, 2021, 11:44:39 PM »
Because I feel like metal became the dominant style of the band's albums, whereas on earlier albums (like, pre-Systematic Chaos) metal was just one aspect of the band's sound.

WDaDU and Awake are arguably more dominantly metallic than most of the band's 2007-present output, though. We've been over this before in how D/T is the only one of those that really stands out in just how much metal there is. Even then, it's matched proportionally by When Dream and Day Unite. If DT12 had subtler production values, then I think it'd be noticed how it's actually not that overwhelmingly metal. I do think that it's less heavy than Awake, on balance. Plus... the obvious mention of Train of Thought. Even if it's atypical, it's still an album that shifted the balance of their discography and makes the heavier parts of Systematic Chaos (and let's not forget that they're only parts, given that this is the same album with Repentence, The Ministry of Lost Souls and Prophets of War) less of a surprise. Hell, even if I were to concede that DT12 is at least a very sonically intense album that highlights its metallic elements, that still leaves both ADToE and TA as albums that subvert this supposed trend. I'm also not convinced of Black Clouds' place in this context, given that Wither, The Best of Times and the majority of The Count of Tuscany take up a pretty sizable chunk of the album.

Even if this was true however, I think it'd still be a bit silly to insinuate that a shift to a heavier sound would be "for commercial reasons" and that's my main gripe with this. That sentence reeks of entitlement to me, with the implication that because the band aren't going in a direction you want them to, that they're somehow lacking in integrity. One thing I feel as though I should mention as well when this sort of thing comes up... is that metal doesn't necessitate a lack of variety. Afterlife, S2N, The Mirror, The Enemy Inside, Constant Motion, The Root of All Evil, A Rite of Passage and At Wit's End are all metal songs, but they're not exactly homogenous. Perhaps D/T might sound like a blur of metal to some people, but the differences between songs like Pale Blue Dot and Fall Into the Light are clear as day to me.

I think there’s a huge difference between 80’s metal and modern metal, especially in production values.

Dream Theater has always been half of a metal band but the influences many fell in love with were hair metal bands, Metallica, Judas Priest, rush etc…. And not some of the more modern sounding bands today that have completely different production, growling vocals, etc…

I don’t think Dream Theater adapting their sound to stay with the times means that they don’t have integrity…. It means they are smart businessmen who have figured out a way to still make great music while not becoming “that old band from the 90’s”.   

To me so much of it has to do with production… Im a prog guy and an 80’s metal guy but find D/T to have the warmest production in many years.  Whereas SC has a thin, stale, metallic production.  I never listen to ITPOE because I hate how it sounds…however that song is amazing live when free from its stale production.

Plus on D/T they were bringing back some of that 80’s vibe with songs like Out of Reach, Viper King and Fall Into the Light (especially mid section).  So despite me being a prog/80’s metal guy I really like D/T.

The TOT-ADTOE run just didn’t have that vibe at all IMO.

The over-reliance on their current metal sound as of late is the issue I have. They obviously still have diverse things going on still within their albums. They transcended genre so much in the past, that it's hard to see that DT, a band of virtuosos who know how to write music well, have become a bit "formulaic"

TOT is an interesting one to bring up, as the reason it was so controversial at the time of its release is because it was the first DT album where (pretty much) all the songs were metal, meaning that wasn't a thing before. Leading up to that they had a few tracks that were heavier than their usual fare, but it didn't dominate the album. TOT was cool because it was something different than before, and the style of metal they did there is different than what they did after. Later albums don't really have that groove, nu-metal, and angst-filled riffage of TOT; later stuff is darker, with more chugga chugga riffs. After Octavarium, their sound evolved into incorporating a certain metal tone in the overall sound and mood of the album. As I said, for all its lighter moments, The Astonishing is included in this debate.

This is why ADTOE is the best of the Mangini era, as it toned down the metal a little that was growing on the previous 2 albums (Yes, last 2 songs on BC&SL tone down the metal as well, but the previous 4 tracks were all just heavy af (or a metal ballad)) and I like some of the heavier riffs on ADTOE, but I will admit I like the metal sound DT had until the 2010s, and a lot of that comes from the drummer. To me MM doesn't provide the depth and fullness in his sound to make the band sound sufficiently heavy like MP was able to do. This is confirmed on ADTOE because that is the studio album closest to MM sounding like he's playing a real drum set. LTE3 also confirmed this, JP's heavy riffs have more body with MP behind him again, than anything with Mangini. Just my opinion.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2021, 11:50:08 PM by darkshade »

Offline Enigmachine

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10707 on: June 13, 2021, 03:44:40 AM »
The over-reliance on their current metal sound as of late is the issue I have. They obviously still have diverse things going on still within their albums. They transcended genre so much in the past, that it's hard to see that DT, a band of virtuosos who know how to write music well, have become a bit "formulaic"

I will grant that most of the modern albums are less eclectic than something like I&W, FII or SDoIT. However, this sort of expand-contract musical evolution of stylistic diversity I think is probably more common than you'd imagine. It's a process of establishing their sound, exploring its limits, establishing a balance and a new stylistic centre, then refining that to suit what they want to achieve musically. This cycle has happened with bands like Rush, Metallica, Black Sabbath, Queensryche, Deep Purple etc. They also may very well simply feel like the songs they write are generally less malleable to eclectic experimentation and highly contrasting styles. This of course doesn't stop stuff like the raw jazz fusion style solos in S2N and StR, the exotic piano comping in UA and LNF, the funky guitar interlude in BAI, the jazzy piano flourish or the entire orchestral section in IT, the Morricone esque build in FItL or... just TA in general. The fact that these often don't feel like heavily contrasting moments is probably a testament to how smoothly they're integrated into the sound.

TOT is an interesting one to bring up, as the reason it was so controversial at the time of its release is because it was the first DT album where (pretty much) all the songs were metal, meaning that wasn't a thing before. Leading up to that they had a few tracks that were heavier than their usual fare, but it didn't dominate the album. TOT was cool because it was something different than before, and the style of metal they did there is different than what they did after. Later albums don't really have that groove, nu-metal, and angst-filled riffage of TOT; later stuff is darker, with more chugga chugga riffs. After Octavarium, their sound evolved into incorporating a certain metal tone in the overall sound and mood of the album. As I said, for all its lighter moments, The Astonishing is included in this debate.

I mean, the heavier moments (at least in large part) on TA are arguably more textural than anything else, so I really don't know if it can be included. Only about 5-7 of its 34 tracks would kind of fit the bill. Is simply having that modern metal sound enough to draw ire? I also don't know if I'd call most of the riffing in these albums otherwise all that dark. Stuff like The Enemy Inside, Untethered Angel, My Last Farewell, Room 137 and Paralysed, sure. Fall Into the Light, S2N, The Looking Glass, Moment of Betrayal and Behind the Veil (again, in spite of the tuning, it's got that early 90s Megadeth esque groove) I'm less sure about. In my view, 4/9 songs on DT12 fit your description and 5/9 from D/T. I'd hardly call that overwhelming, even if the latter is the majority.

(Yes, last 2 songs on BC&SL tone down the metal as well, but the previous 4 tracks were all just heavy af (or a metal ballad))

Neglecting to mention that those two songs total over half an hour in length. I also think including Wither as a metal ballad is... a bit of a stretch, not to mention that the Beautiful Agony part of ANtR is such a prominent part of the track (it's pretty much a full song within a song) that I feel like it also merits inclusion in the overall balance. As for the rest of the paragraph, I guess that is a matter of opinion. The thing is, I don't view the MM era as going for the same kind of thing in this regard, generally more going for a sort of layered, dramatic vibe (hence why a lot of it is textured with melodic keyboard parts) over visceral sonic impact when it comes to a lot of these metallic sections. Constant Motion might hit harder than The Enemy Inside on balance, but the latter feels more tragic. I personally quite like both approaches, with the respective drummers suiting each tone.

Offline KevShmev

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10708 on: June 13, 2021, 06:40:41 AM »
The Great Debate is like the Philip Rivers of the DT catalogue.  :biggrin:

It is analysis like this that keeps me coming back to this forum after all these years.

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Online Ben_Jamin

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10709 on: June 13, 2021, 07:58:12 AM »
I don't understand the hate for The Great Debate, it's a great song. I love how it isn't a big epic but I feel the same way when I listen to it: it takes me on a journey  :metal

To make a sports analogy, The Great Debate is like that athlete that is never one of the absolute best, never wins a title, never wins an MVP, etc., but has a very good consistent career.  The Great Debate is really good the whole way through, but never really has that "OMG, this is so amazing" vibe, at least not for me, and with a song that long, you usually need at least one of two of those moments.  The Great Debate is like the Philip Rivers of the DT catalogue.  :biggrin:

In the context of the song and lyrics. Remember the "Inspiration" corner. The Great Debate is obviously the Tool inspiration. Now to be influenced by tool, the lyrical subject needs to be insightful, as all Tool lyrics are insightful and spiritual.

What was in the news at that time was the Stem Cell Debate. And having The Tool inspired music have lyrics dealing with this real world topic, is insightful.

I actually like how the lyrics don't take a side and present both aspects of the debate. And how they panned the views on both the left and right.

This song in it's context is not meant to be an epic song or a memorable one. It's an insightful song. The music fits the lyrics in it gives off an unsettling vibe. Kind of like seeing a dark, stormy cloud approaching, this is the intro and the outro. While the song itself is the storm.

I understand why people don't like this song. But in the context of the music, the lyrics, and especially the influence, it's a really great song.

Pale Blue Dot, is the same type of song, with regards to its context, and lyrical content.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2021, 08:14:23 AM by Ben_Jamin »
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