Author Topic: Your Controversial Opinions on DT  (Read 1015687 times)

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Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10325 on: October 26, 2020, 12:23:32 PM »
I think BC&SL is better than SC, I like it a lot more than others do as well. It seems like the entire album gets tons of hate because of 30 seconds in the first track, which is a little hyperbolic, but somewhat true.
That is not why the entire album gets tons of hate.

And I don't think "hate" is the right word anyway.  There are definitely many DT fans who were disappointed with the album, or who rank it fairly low (as do I).  But "hate" is not a word that I use very much in DT-land, except for Raw Dog, which I find repulsive on both a physical and metaphysical level.
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Offline darkshade

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10326 on: October 26, 2020, 12:32:33 PM »
I think BC&SL is better than SC, I like it a lot more than others do as well. It seems like the entire album gets tons of hate because of 30 seconds in the first track, which is a little hyperbolic, but somewhat true.
That is not why the entire album gets tons of hate.

And I don't think "hate" is the right word anyway.  There are definitely many DT fans who were disappointed with the album, or who rank it fairly low (as do I).  But "hate" is not a word that I use very much in DT-land, except for Raw Dog, which I find repulsive on both a physical and metaphysical level.

Hate may have been too strong a word. I for one loved it on first listen and continued loving it, in contrast to SC where I wasn't all that impressed with it at the time of release and was basically the first time I fell off the DT bandwagon, though I grew to enjoy SC and did like some stuff initially. I put BC&SL somewhere in the middle of the pack, though, with SC a notch or two below depending on my mood. Too many great albums by the band preceded them.

Raw Dog is technically not "canon" so yea whatever. From what I recall it's a mish mash of leftover riffs from the Black Clouds sessions, and that's literally what it sounds like, a mish mash of unrelated riffs and flurries of notes. The production is muddy too.

Online pg1067

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10327 on: October 26, 2020, 12:47:13 PM »
I think BC&SL is better than SC, I like it a lot more than others do as well. It seems like the entire album gets tons of hate because of 30 seconds in the first track, which is a little hyperbolic, but somewhat true.
That is not why the entire album gets tons of hate.

And I don't think "hate" is the right word anyway.  There are definitely many DT fans who were disappointed with the album, or who rank it fairly low (as do I).  But "hate" is not a word that I use very much in DT-land, except for Raw Dog, which I find repulsive on both a physical and metaphysical level.

Putting aside whether "hate" is or isn't the appropriate word, I don't think I've ever heard of anyone basis an opinion about BC&SL solely because the growly vocals in ANTR.  For me, it's pretty simple:

1. ANTR is bloated.  It has some good parts and, maybe, if it were condensed down to 9-10 minutes, I'd like it better.
2. AROP is band as heck.
3. Wither is an excellent song in all respects.
4. TSF is ok, but it's (understandably) redundant of the previous songs in the 12SS, one of which I regard as the single worst song in DT's catalog.
5. TBOT is just dull as heck.  I appreciate and have no problem with what MP was doing with the lyrics, but that doesn't mean I like the song.  I also don't get all the gaga over the guitar solo.
6. TCOT is good but not great.  The intro and end are excellent, but the verses aren't great, and the long continuum break is only slightly more tolerable than the intro to 8VM.

When the best song on a DT album is a 5 1/2 minute "ballad," then the album is in trouble.
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Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10328 on: October 26, 2020, 01:13:36 PM »
Putting aside whether "hate" is or isn't the appropriate word, I don't think I've ever heard of anyone basis an opinion about BC&SL solely because the growly vocals in ANTR.  For me, it's pretty simple:

1. ANTR is bloated.  It has some good parts and, maybe, if it were condensed down to 9-10 minutes, I'd like it better.
2. AROP is band as heck.
3. Wither is an excellent song in all respects.
4. TSF is ok, but it's (understandably) redundant of the previous songs in the 12SS, one of which I regard as the single worst song in DT's catalog.
5. TBOT is just dull as heck.  I appreciate and have no problem with what MP was doing with the lyrics, but that doesn't mean I like the song.  I also don't get all the gaga over the guitar solo.
6. TCOT is good but not great.  The intro and end are excellent, but the verses aren't great, and the long continuum break is only slightly more tolerable than the intro to 8VM.

When the best song on a DT album is a 5 1/2 minute "ballad," then the album is in trouble.
I agree with, well, most of this.
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Offline Setlist Scotty

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10329 on: October 26, 2020, 01:56:16 PM »
Raw Dog is technically not "canon" so yea whatever.
Wat. It may not have appeared on one of their studio albums, but that doesn't make it any less canon than any of the other songs they've done that have not appeared on a proper album.
 
 
From what I recall it's a mish mash of leftover riffs from the Black Clouds sessions, and that's literally what it sounds like, a mish mash of unrelated riffs and flurries of notes. The production is muddy too.
You recall wrong. Yes they were various parts that they had written during the BCaSL sessions, but calling them leftovers implies that they weren't good enough to be used, which was not the case at all. It was simply a case of the band not finding a proper place for those parts in other songs when writing the album proper.

As for it being a "mish mash of unrelated riffs and flurries of notes", I don't really see that being the case any more than Erotomania or TDoE. Whether it's a fan favorite or not in comparison to those tracks is a completely different discussion.

Regarding the production, I disagree too. It's obvious that the opening and closing parts of the song were very djent and could be considered muddy, but I wouldn't say that about the rest of the song.
As a basic rule, if you hate it, you must solely blame Portnoy. If it's good, then you must downplay MP's contribution to the band as not being important anyway, or claim he's just lying. It's the DTF way.

Offline SeRoX

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10330 on: October 26, 2020, 03:09:11 PM »
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Offline MirrorMask

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10331 on: October 26, 2020, 04:33:52 PM »
From what I recall it's a mish mash of leftover riffs from the Black Clouds sessions, and that's literally what it sounds like, a mish mash of unrelated riffs and flurries of notes. The production is muddy too.
You recall wrong. Yes they were various parts that they had written during the BCaSL sessions, but calling them leftovers implies that they weren't good enough to be used, which was not the case at all. It was simply a case of the band not finding a proper place for those parts in other songs when writing the album proper.

....so they were basically parts left over because?

 :D

Evidently "leftover" has become a negative term to imply "Song that wasn't good enough for the record", but anything that doesn't get used for an album is a leftover to me. Kinda like "filler", a filler is just a song written, in the old era of vinyls, to make a too much short album a bit longer. It then became a label to apply on any song that isn't among the best of a record. A song that people find average is not a filler. Black Sabbath's Paranoid is literally a filler, written only because there was room for one more song, and it's one of the undisputed flagship songs of an entire genre.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2020, 01:56:20 AM by MirrorMask »
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Offline gzarruk

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It sounds like, "ruk, ruk, ruk, ruk, ruk." Instead of the more pleasing kick drum sound of, "gzarruk, gzarruk, gzarruk, gzarruk."

Offline IDontNotDoThings

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10333 on: October 26, 2020, 07:16:22 PM »
Part 2 is awesome!

:iagree:

But I don't agree that SC is better than BC&SL. It's good, but BC&SL is on a whole other level for me, though I understand that I'm in the minority in having BC&SL among my top DT albums.

I think BC&SL is better than SC, I like it a lot more than others do as well. It seems like the entire album gets tons of hate because of 30 seconds in the first track, which is a little hyperbolic, but somewhat true. I think it's a stronger album than many DT fans give it credit for.

Coincidentally, I think Nightmare is about 30-45 minutes too long and could benefit from some trimming.  But the 30 second or so that I could do without are not the same 30 second or so that you are thinking.  :)

So your edit would be between -13:50 & -28:50?  :lol
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Offline Cool Chris

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10334 on: October 26, 2020, 09:49:38 PM »
I appreciate Repentance for what it is, and it's about. It's actually a great song, it reflects the mood of the songs subject.  Having the guests come in and ask for their forgiveness was amazing. And them actually being real ones are even more neat.

I've tried, but I just can't. The first part is fine, good actually, but I just don't find any enjoyment in listening to the apologies, or the 12 Promises (I think that is what they are). It just ever so slightly tips the scales from "great song with cool concept" to "therapy session / look how many fellow rockers I know and can get on my album."
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Offline gzarruk

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10335 on: October 26, 2020, 10:19:24 PM »
I appreciate Repentance for what it is, and it's about. It's actually a great song, it reflects the mood of the songs subject.  Having the guests come in and ask for their forgiveness was amazing. And them actually being real ones are even more neat.

I've tried, but I just can't. The first part is fine, good actually, but I just don't find any enjoyment in listening to the apologies, or the 12 Promises (I think that is what they are). It just ever so slightly tips the scales from "great song with cool concept" to "therapy session / look how many fellow rockers I know and can get on my album."

I don't mind that section, but then the "ahhhh"s go on for too long.
It sounds like, "ruk, ruk, ruk, ruk, ruk." Instead of the more pleasing kick drum sound of, "gzarruk, gzarruk, gzarruk, gzarruk."

Offline Cool Chris

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10336 on: October 26, 2020, 10:48:31 PM »
Yes they do. Of course around this time, you could say "the <fill in the blank> goes on for too long" about many of their songs.
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Offline Kotowboy

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10337 on: October 27, 2020, 04:52:22 AM »
Yes they do. Of course around this time, you could say "the <fill in the blank> goes on for too long" about many of their songs.

The <whinging about The Astonishing> goes on for too long.

Offline Setlist Scotty

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10338 on: October 27, 2020, 06:59:05 AM »
Yes they do. Of course around this time, you could say "the <fill in the blank> goes on for too long" about many of their songs.

The <whinging about The Astonishing> goes on for too long.
The repeatedly posting about MP's press release goes on for too long.
As a basic rule, if you hate it, you must solely blame Portnoy. If it's good, then you must downplay MP's contribution to the band as not being important anyway, or claim he's just lying. It's the DTF way.

Offline Kotowboy

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10339 on: October 27, 2020, 07:12:19 AM »
One is legit bitching and the other is a forum meme.

Offline ReaperKK

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10340 on: October 27, 2020, 09:05:49 AM »
Systematic Chaos has aged remarkably well, and blows away Black Clouds and Silver Linings (the worst Portnoy-era album).

Completely agree.

Offline Zydar

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10341 on: October 27, 2020, 09:33:39 AM »
Yeah, I agree.
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Offline Setlist Scotty

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10342 on: October 27, 2020, 11:01:59 AM »
One is legit bitching and the other is a forum meme.
No. The other is just you harping on the same thing that happened over 10 years ago again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again... 
As a basic rule, if you hate it, you must solely blame Portnoy. If it's good, then you must downplay MP's contribution to the band as not being important anyway, or claim he's just lying. It's the DTF way.

Offline Kotowboy

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10343 on: October 27, 2020, 11:36:53 AM »
Totally unlike All The Astonishing bitching. . . . .

Online pg1067

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10344 on: October 27, 2020, 01:04:08 PM »
I can't recall the last time I saw anyone bitch about The Astonishing.
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Offline Dublagent66

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10345 on: October 27, 2020, 01:11:40 PM »
Yeah, because everyone's pretty much forgotten about it.


One is legit bitching and the other is a forum meme.
No. The other is just you harping on the same thing that happened over 10 years ago again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again... 

Wow!  That's a lot of "and agains"  :eek
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Online Ben_Jamin

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10346 on: October 27, 2020, 10:11:42 PM »
I would consider the Self Titled to be the best album with the best lyrical messages. I really enjoy the topics and meanings of each one.

Along For The Ride, just clicked with me.
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Offline nobloodyname

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10347 on: October 28, 2020, 03:51:08 AM »
Yeah, because everyone's pretty much forgotten about it.


One is legit bitching and the other is a forum meme.
No. The other is just you harping on the same thing that happened over 10 years ago again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again... 

Wow!  That's a lot of "and agains"  :eek

And there still aren't enough of them :biggrin:
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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10348 on: October 28, 2020, 10:07:38 AM »
Yeah, because everyone's pretty much forgotten about it.


One is legit bitching and the other is a forum meme.
No. The other is just you harping on the same thing that happened over 10 years ago again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again... 

Wow!  That's a lot of "and agains"  :eek

And there still aren't enough of them :biggrin:

Never enough.
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Offline gzarruk

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10349 on: October 28, 2020, 11:11:55 AM »
I would consider the Self Titled to be the best album with the best lyrical messages. I really enjoy the topics and meanings of each one.

I've probably said this a couple times already, but DT12 helped me get through very hard times in my life, back when it was released. The lyrics played a huge part in that too.
It sounds like, "ruk, ruk, ruk, ruk, ruk." Instead of the more pleasing kick drum sound of, "gzarruk, gzarruk, gzarruk, gzarruk."

Offline Dublagent66

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10350 on: October 28, 2020, 03:18:18 PM »
Maybe if I was a lyrics guy, DT12 might be more appealing.  Never really paid much attention to lyrics.  Musically, most of DT12 was a flop.  Only 3 songs that I actually like.  TEI, TLG, and BTV.
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Offline IDontNotDoThings

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10351 on: October 28, 2020, 03:48:20 PM »
Maybe if I was a lyrics guy, DT12 might be more appealing.  Never really paid much attention to lyrics.  Musically, most of DT12 was a flop.  Only 3 songs that I actually like.  TEI, TLG, and BTV.

You don't like TBP? damn, that's controversial


As for lyrics, I think Awake is their best album lyrically. The songs are so poetic & have such great imagery while still being about real themes. I&W also has that great poetry, but I could understand the complaint that it can be too abstract at times. The later lyrics are mostly fine, but I feel most of them are a bit too direct & don't have the mystique of the first three albums.

But still, I rank Awake & WDADU pretty low in my DT album rankings, so I'm definitely more of a music gal.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2020, 05:55:40 PM by IDontNotDoThings »
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Offline WilliamMunny

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10352 on: October 28, 2020, 04:37:48 PM »
Maybe if I was a lyrics guy, DT12 might be more appealing.  Never really paid much attention to lyrics.  Musically, most of DT12 was a flop.  Only 3 songs that I actually like.  TEI, TLG, and BTV.

You don't like TBP? damn, that's controversial


As for lyrics, I think Awake is their best album lyrically. The songs are so poetic & have such great imagery while still being about real themes. I&W also has that great poetism, but I could understand the complaint that it can be too abstract at times. The later lyrics are mostly fine, but I feel most of them are a bit too direct & don't have the mistique of the first three albums.

But still, I rank Awake & WDADU pretty low in my DT album rankings, so I'mdefinitely more of a music gal.

I quite enjoy DT12, but 'The Bigger Picture' is a bottom-ten song for me, and an automatic skip everytime I listen to that record. Different strokes I suppose.

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Offline SeRoX

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10354 on: October 29, 2020, 05:32:04 PM »
An opinion for the future but I feel the next live DVD will be least favourite among DT fan base.
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Offline gzarruk

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10355 on: October 29, 2020, 07:21:10 PM »
An opinion for the future but I feel the next live DVD will be least favourite among DT fan base.

CIM won't be replaced.
It sounds like, "ruk, ruk, ruk, ruk, ruk." Instead of the more pleasing kick drum sound of, "gzarruk, gzarruk, gzarruk, gzarruk."

Offline Revenge319

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10356 on: October 29, 2020, 07:58:39 PM »
An opinion for the future but I feel the next live DVD will be least favourite among DT fan base.

I think it'll probably be my least favorite, but only because the other live albums are just that much better. Then again, a lot of people say Chaos in Motion is the worst one and I haven't gotten to that live album yet.

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10357 on: October 29, 2020, 08:05:40 PM »
An opinion for the future but I feel the next live DVD will be least favourite among DT fan base.

Do you mean Distance Momories? Or the next one?
would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
Winger Theater Forums........or WTF.  ;D
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Offline Cool Chris

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10358 on: October 29, 2020, 08:46:31 PM »
An opinion for the future but I feel the next live DVD will be least favourite among DT fan base.

CIM won't be replaced.

CiM is easily replaced. You could replace it with e a coaster, or a frisbee, or one of those AOL free trial CDS that you would get in the mail every couple days back in the 90s.
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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10359 on: October 29, 2020, 08:48:30 PM »
Chris, that's not right.
would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
Winger Theater Forums........or WTF.  ;D
TAC got a higher score than me in the electronic round? Honestly, can I just drop out now? :lol