Your Controversial Opinions on DT

Started by Lucidity, December 17, 2012, 07:28:25 PM

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hefdaddy42

Quote from: BlobVanDam on December 11, 2014, 08:19:46 PMHef is right on all things. Except for when I disagree with him. In which case he's probably still right.

SeRoX

Quote from: Kotowboy on October 02, 2020, 11:11:12 AM

In The Presence Of Enemies is their worst Epic.


I used to think the same. But now, it's one of their best song and epic, IMO. Especially the second part is amazing. Too bad DT seems less interested about playing pt2.

pg1067

Quote from: hefdaddy42 on October 05, 2020, 09:48:10 AM
I don't think there is anything at all dumb about John Cage or his compositions.  They show an elevated viewpoint of music, and what it means, and what can be achieved with it.  It's almost a deconstruction of composition.

I'm surprised you are just now learning about 4'33".  It's fairly well-known, and I know it's been discussed here on the forum before.  But maybe it was a long time ago.

One of the points of 4'33" is for the audience member to focus on the lack of sound, which opens one up to all of the real sound happening all around them.  Plus, it's cool to just be quite for a while, although apparently it unnerves some people.

Opinions and all, but "sit there and do nothing for four and a half minutes" isn't even a "composition," and something that consists only of a bunch of droning chords that "is scheduled to have a duration of 639 years" and which ostensibly starts with a 17-month rest is pretty much the height of "dumb," IMO.  I can't comment on anything else he did because, after those two things, I have no interest in seeking any of it out.

Ben_Jamin

Quote from: hefdaddy42 on October 05, 2020, 09:48:10 AM
I don't think there is anything at all dumb about John Cage or his compositions.  They show an elevated viewpoint of music, and what it means, and what can be achieved with it.  It's almost a deconstruction of composition.

I'm surprised you are just now learning about 4'33".  It's fairly well-known, and I know it's been discussed here on the forum before.  But maybe it was a long time ago.

One of the points of 4'33" is for the audience member to focus on the lack of sound, which opens one up to all of the real sound happening all around them.  Plus, it's cool to just be quite for a while, although apparently it unnerves some people.

I understand what he is trying to do.

He's trying to get the musician to listen to the environment, as the environment is the musician now. Listening in to how these sounds create a rhythm, and sometimes a melody. That is the composition of the piece.

If you think it's just about Silence, to me, you aren't really listening to the song.  :biggrin:

bosk1

Yeah, I likewise "get" what he is trying to achieve.  But I also do not see any artistic merit to it otherwise and have zero interest.  Just because I get it doesn't mean it is a good idea.

Ben_Jamin

Quote from: bosk1 on October 05, 2020, 12:56:24 PM
Yeah, I likewise "get" what he is trying to achieve.  But I also do not see any artistic merit to it otherwise and have zero interest.  Just because I get it doesn't mean it is a good idea.

I do and think it's fucking brilliant.

pg1067

This whole discussion reminds me of this "painting":



which sold for $43 million.


pg1067


IDontNotDoThings

The distinction of "real art" from "not real/degenerate/art in airquotes" is a tool used by fascists to exert their cultural superiority & enforce the (culturally rooted) status quo of art by targeting works that question it (especially when that distaste turns into vandalism or harassment of the creators). Not to say that you're doing either, but to imply that that painting or 4'33" simply has less inherent value is what I'm talking about. Norms & conventions are cool & all, but if something's value is tied to how closely it follows them, then progressive music (& thus, this entire forum) wouldn't be here. :lol

MirrorMask

...or, to put it more simply, somebody is allowed to consider a piece made of silence a silly and pretentious thing without harboring at the same time a desire to invade Poland  :D

IDontNotDoThings

Well obviously, but that doesn't make it not a composition, or the painting not a painting, or either of them less valuable objectively. Opinions I understand, but devaluing its status another thing entirely, especially when that's mostly motivated by the art's deviation from the status quo (or rather, the dominant culture).

Just watch the video. It has examples & explains it better than I ever could.

pg1067

Quote from: IDontNotDoThings on October 06, 2020, 12:44:10 AM
Well obviously, but that doesn't make it not a composition, or the painting not a painting, or either of them less valuable objectively. Opinions I understand, but devaluing its status another thing entirely. . . .

I've changed my mind.  And, not coincidentally, just this morning, I will be filing lawsuits against numerous people I found sitting quietly in public places for infringing the copyright in 4'33".

bosk1

Quote from: IDontNotDoThings on October 05, 2020, 07:28:19 PMThe distinction of "real art" from "not real/degenerate/art in airquotes" is a tool used by fascists to exert their cultural superiority & enforce the (culturally rooted) status quo of art by targeting works that question it (especially when that distaste turns into vandalism or harassment of the creators).

Perhaps.  But it is also a tool of those with decent tastes to simply call out that which is silly and has little to no artistic merit.  Don't confuse two.


*The views expressed in this post may or may not correlate to a desire to invade Poland.

Ben_Jamin

Quote from: pg1067 on October 06, 2020, 08:25:54 AM
Quote from: IDontNotDoThings on October 06, 2020, 12:44:10 AM
Well obviously, but that doesn't make it not a composition, or the painting not a painting, or either of them less valuable objectively. Opinions I understand, but devaluing its status another thing entirely. . . .

I've changed my mind.  And, not coincidentally, just this morning, I will be filing lawsuits against numerous people I found sitting quietly in public places for infringing the copyright in 4'33".

You have to be with instrument in hand, to be playing the piece... :biggrin:

NoFred

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on October 06, 2020, 08:35:52 AM
Quote from: pg1067 on October 06, 2020, 08:25:54 AM
Quote from: IDontNotDoThings on October 06, 2020, 12:44:10 AM
Well obviously, but that doesn't make it not a composition, or the painting not a painting, or either of them less valuable objectively. Opinions I understand, but devaluing its status another thing entirely. . . .

I've changed my mind.  And, not coincidentally, just this morning, I will be filing lawsuits against numerous people I found sitting quietly in public places for infringing the copyright in 4'33".

You have to be with instrument in hand, to be playing the piece... :biggrin:

What's an instrument?

The absurdity in al this is really in the 600+ year performance. So they have walled in the organ so the sound doesn't bother anyone? The artist is fine the performance is wasteful

pg1067

On a related note, I've written a sequel to 4'33" this morning:


Kotowboy

Sequels are never as good as the originals.

Ben_Jamin

QuoteCage had gone to a place where he expected total silence, and yet heard sound. "Until I die there will be sounds. And they will continue following my death. One need not fear about the future of music."[15] The realization as he saw it of the impossibility of silence led to the composition of 4′33″.

Now that makes even more sense to me why he made it.

Quote from: pg1067 on October 06, 2020, 11:34:20 AM
On a related note, I've written a sequel to 4'33" this morning:



I think that's this piece...Alphonse Allais's 1897 Funeral March for the Obsequies of a Deaf Man, consisting of twenty-four blank measures


Also...

QuoteIn defining noise music and its value, Paul Hegarty in Noise/Music: A History (2007) contends that Cage's 4′33″ represents the beginning of noise music proper. For Hegarty, noise music, as with 4′33″, is that music made up of incidental sounds that represent perfectly the tension between "desirable" sound (properly played musical notes) and undesirable "noise" that make up all noise music.




Kotowboy

Here's how I probably rate the DT studio albums as of 22:52 on Tuesday night October 6th 2020.

1. Octavarium
2. Scenes From A Memory
3. Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence
4. Distance Over Time
5. The Astonishing
6. Train of Thought
7. Dream Theater

8. A Dramatic Turn of Events
9. Black Clouds & Silver Linings
10. Falling Into infinity
11. Images and Words *
12. Awake
13. Systematic Chaos
14. When Dream And Day Unite




* I don't think I&W 'sucks' - but it's just too dated for me.

Dublagent66

Quote from: Max Kuehnau on October 05, 2020, 09:50:19 AM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on October 05, 2020, 09:48:10 AM
I don't think there is anything at all dumb about John Cage or his compositions.  They show an elevated viewpoint of music, and what it means, and what can be achieved with it.  It's almost a deconstruction of composition.

I'm surprised you are just now learning about 4'33".  It's fairly well-known, and I know it's been discussed here on the forum before.  But maybe it was a long time ago.

One of the points of 4'33" is for the audience member to focus on the lack of sound, which opens one up to all of the real sound happening all around them.  Plus, it's cool to just be quite for a while, although apparently it unnerves some people.
I don't think he was stupid. I conducted the piece once. One eye on the players (who do not play in the piece) and one eye on a stopwatch :D (opening and closing the piano lid three times too. Effort people. Effort.)

Yeah, I get the concept and what it's meant to illustrate, but if there were no performing instruments and only the sound of ambience, then technically it isn't something he composed at all.  It's just an observation of an idea being shared with others.  He's unveiling art that was already there and bringing it to the forefront.

ReaperKK

Here is my chilling in Pennsylvania at 9:30 in the morning ranking:

1. Distance Over Time
2. Systematic Chaos
3. Six Degrees Of Inner Turbulence
4. Train Of Thought
5. Scenes From A Memory
6. Falling Into Infinity
7. Black Clouds & Silver Linings
8. Octavarium
9. Dream Theater
10. Images And Words
11. A Dramatic Turn of Events
12. Awake
13. When Dream And Day Unite
14. The Astonishing


Trav86

Here's my "posting for no reason/who gives a shit what I think" ranking...

Scenes From a Memory
Images and Words
The Astonishing
Distance Over Time
Awake
Train of Thought
A Dramatic Turn of Events
Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence
Octavarium
Dream Theater
Falling Into Infinity
Black Clouds and Silver Linings
Systematic Chaos
When Dream and Day Unite

ThatOneGuy2112

My totally objectively correct until it changes again ranking:

1. Scenes From a Memory
2. Images & Words
3. Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence
4. Awake
5. Octavarium
6.Train of Thought
7. Falling Into Infinity
8. A Dramatic Turn of Events
9. Distance Over Time
10. Dream Theater
11. Systematic Chaos
12. Black Clouds & Silver Linings
13. When Dream and Day Unite
14. The Astonishing

pg1067

Ok...why not...

My rankings go in tier, and the order of albums within each tier is subject to change on any given day.

Top Tier
SFAM
I&W
SDOIT

Just a Notch Below
Awake
8VM
TOT

Really Good, but not quite up with the others...
DT12
ADTOE
DOT

Charlie
WDADU

Bottom of the Barrel
FII
BC&SL
SC
TA

Cool Chris


Dedalus

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on October 05, 2020, 02:36:29 PM
Quote from: bosk1 on October 05, 2020, 12:56:24 PM
Yeah, I likewise "get" what he is trying to achieve.  But I also do not see any artistic merit to it otherwise and have zero interest.  Just because I get it doesn't mean it is a good idea.

I do and think it's fucking brilliant.

Me too.

There are several aspects that this piece can evoke, but I cannot help but find the provocative side absolutely fascinating. You can search for discussions about 4'33 '' anywhere on the internet and you will see a crowd of people bothered by Cage's idea. Mockery and irony are the most frequent reactions and this is absolutely wonderful. They may even say that they are not bothered, but I don't believe them.  :)

In many other ways, I feel that Cage may not have been successful. But as a provocateur, there is no doubt about it.

Kotowboy

Falling Into infinity has Lines In The Sand, Trial of Tears, Hell's Kitchen, Hollow Years...And New Millennium is pretty cool.

Those songs alone should save it from Last Place.

Plus the production is stellar.


IDontNotDoThings

Not for me :P

#1. Images & Words
#2. Scenes From A Memory
#3. Black Clouds & Silver Linings
#4. Distance Over Time
#5. Six Degrees Of Inner Turbulence
#6. The Astonishing
#7. Awake
#8. Octavarium (yeet)
#9. Systematic Chaos
10. When Dream & Day Unite
11. A Dramatic Turn Of Events
12. Dream Theater
13. Train Of Thought
14. Falling Into Infinity

MirrorMask

I'd have to go by tier too...

GOD TIER, UTTER MASTERPIECES
Scenes
Awake
Images and Words

JUST A LITTLE BELOW
Octavarium

GREAT ALBUMS ALL AROUND
Six Degrees
The Astonishing
Dramatic Turn
Train of Thought

YEAH, IT'S NOT THAT THEY'RE BAD, BUT....
Distance Over Time
Dream Theater
Falling Into Infinity

STILL GOOD BUT COME ON, I EXPECTED BETTER
Black Clouds
Systematic Chaos
When Dream and Day Unite

Kotowboy

Systematic Chaos was the first 'new' album since I became a fan and that was definitely a " not bad but I expected better " album.

Especially since I came on board with Octavarium - which is still my favourite.

SC basically follows the same pattern as that album but with the epic split into two.

DT12 didn't really have the " It's good but I expected better " factor apart from that snare sound. And everyone banging on about Surrender to reason when I have always found it meh.

Breaking All Illusions too for some reason... It just never grabbed me in the same way as a song like " This Is The Life " or "The Answer Lies Within"...

Along for the ride is MEH as well. But I think DT12's highs are better than ADTOE's Highs but it has worse lows. . IMO

Finally - Illumination theory has never really grabbed me either. I actually prefer the Count Of Tuscany... But i'm glad they've moved away from the mandatory 20 minute song on each album.

pg1067

Quote from: Cool Chris on October 07, 2020, 04:26:16 PM
Lol the "Charlie" tier.

:biggrin:

Obviously, that was tongue-in-cheek, but WDADU would move up a tier with a better vocalist (which isn't saying that Charlie lacked merit, but....).


Quote from: MirrorMask on October 08, 2020, 02:37:16 AM
STILL GOOD BUT COME ON, I EXPECTED BETTER
Black Clouds
Systematic Chaos
When Dream and Day Unite

I'm curious about this tier description as it relates to WDADU.  If you heard WDADU when Charlie was still in the band, then it was a completely unknown band, and you should have had no expectations at all.  On the other hand, if you only heard WDADU after being familiar with JLB era music (as is the case for most of us), what expectations did you have for the band's debut effort with a different singer.

Or, perhaps, as I often do, I'm overthinking this.   :)


Quote from: Dedalus on October 08, 2020, 12:28:03 AM
Quote from: Ben_Jamin on October 05, 2020, 02:36:29 PM
Quote from: bosk1 on October 05, 2020, 12:56:24 PM
Yeah, I likewise "get" what he is trying to achieve.  But I also do not see any artistic merit to it otherwise and have zero interest.  Just because I get it doesn't mean it is a good idea.

I do and think it's fucking brilliant.

Me too.

There are several aspects that this piece can evoke, but I cannot help but find the provocative side absolutely fascinating. You can search for discussions about 4'33 '' anywhere on the internet and you will see a crowd of people bothered by Cage's idea. Mockery and irony are the most frequent reactions and this is absolutely wonderful. They may even say that they are not bothered, but I don't believe them.  :)

In many other ways, I feel that Cage may not have been successful. But as a provocateur, there is no doubt about it.

That he apparently has succeeded in getting some people to regard 4'33" as a "composition," much less something that is "brilliant," indicates that succeeded at something (much in the same way that John Hammond succeeded with his flea circus).

MirrorMask

Quote from: pg1067 on October 08, 2020, 08:56:15 AM
Quote from: MirrorMask on October 08, 2020, 02:37:16 AM
STILL GOOD BUT COME ON, I EXPECTED BETTER
Black Clouds
Systematic Chaos
When Dream and Day Unite

I'm curious about this tier description as it relates to WDADU.  If you heard WDADU when Charlie was still in the band, then it was a completely unknown band, and you should have had no expectations at all.  On the other hand, if you only heard WDADU after being familiar with JLB era music (as is the case for most of us), what expectations did you have for the band's debut effort with a different singer.

Or, perhaps, as I often do, I'm overthinking this.   :)


Yeah, you do  :D I generically lumped together the albums I'm not crazy for, maybe the most correct approach is having  a Charlie tier like you did 'cause the debut is for very obvious reasons unlike anything they've ever done since.

Dedalus

Quote from: pg1067 on October 08, 2020, 08:56:15 AM
Quote from: Dedalus on October 08, 2020, 12:28:03 AM
Quote from: Ben_Jamin on October 05, 2020, 02:36:29 PM
Quote from: bosk1 on October 05, 2020, 12:56:24 PM
Yeah, I likewise "get" what he is trying to achieve.  But I also do not see any artistic merit to it otherwise and have zero interest.  Just because I get it doesn't mean it is a good idea.

I do and think it's fucking brilliant.

Me too.

There are several aspects that this piece can evoke, but I cannot help but find the provocative side absolutely fascinating. You can search for discussions about 4'33 '' anywhere on the internet and you will see a crowd of people bothered by Cage's idea. Mockery and irony are the most frequent reactions and this is absolutely wonderful. They may even say that they are not bothered, but I don't believe them.  :)

In many other ways, I feel that Cage may not have been successful. But as a provocateur, there is no doubt about it.

That he apparently has succeeded in getting some people to regard 4'33" as a "composition," much less something that is "brilliant," indicates that succeeded at something (much in the same way that John Hammond succeeded with his flea circus).

No one will think that the "composition is brilliant" in itself. This is foolish.
It is not the "composition" that is brilliant, the idea is that it is. Conceptual art. The product is irrelevant, obviously.
Certainly, not everyone will think the same way, but that is part of the world.

Another factor that makes me like the idea (besides the teasing) is that for years I thought it was something about silence, but it is not. It's about listening. If people tried to listen to the piece and think about it, perhaps they discover interesting things. But at this point I believe that Cage's purpose has failed.

Dublagent66

He wanted people to listen to The Sound of Silence.  I prefer the original version by Simon & Garfunkel, and the cover version by Disturbed myself.  :rollin