DT12 v. WDAWAIISOIT8V&CSTOE pt. XII

[snapple]

I hope we get more stuff a la Far From Heaven

[fadetoblackdude7]

A concept album would be cool, but I could go with or without it. I want a double album! (In the same package I might add, none of that part 1 now, part 2 six months later shit)

Hopefully all 5 members will have top-notch performances, and a much more crisp production.

[The Presence of Frenemies]

• No epics. They've done that. A Change of Seasons was a very significant song, all the moreso because it was unique. Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence doesn't fit the epic mould so much, but it was different, and new, and special in a completely different way. Octavarium was significant because it was the first long track in a long, long while - but now with In the Presence of Enemies and The Count of Tuscany, it's... overdone. It becomes mundane. It's not, "This is the long one, it's lightning in a bottle." It's "This is the long one, it doesn't fit well on mix CDs." If they've got something to say that needs thirty minutes, great, but I think it's gone the other way round, a bit, lately. Good things, when short, are twice as good. I'd love to hear the ten minute cut of In the Presence of Enemies. Heck, I think the ten minute cut of In the Presence of Enemies might be called "In the Presence of Enemies: Pt. 1."

• Diversity. Lots of it. ADToE was very cool, but a lot of songs had similar vibes to them. Bridges in the Sky was perfect, and while Outcry and Lost Not Forgotten are pretty good too, I find BitS slightly overshadows them. I like the links, and I like the consistency, but come on. We've warmed up, now let's see what this new band's capable of. Beneath the Surface was good - very new, very original. Let's hear more of that. And a bit more of Jordan Rudess's electronic stuff would be good. Not loads, just a taste. I don't mean they have to exaggerate - make the heavy song ultra-heavy, and the electronic song ultra-electric, just get lots of distinct characters in there. Not just as simple "heavy," "light," "sombre," "rocky," "electronic." How about something a bit baroque, medieval? Or a spot of wild-west? Maybe something that - god forbid, saying this to a prog rock band - grooves? They kind of did this on Systematic Chaos, it's got that wonderful schlocky horror kind of feel. More of that.

I totally agree with the second sentiment here...but as I've said above, I think the diversity tends to come out more in the epics than in the medium-length (by DT standards) songs. Further, I'd say that one last big one would hold its own special meaning as far as it being post-MP and all--really show what the "new" DT can muster in that department. After all, everyone hailed ADTOE as this renewed inspiration--why not see how that translates to epics?

• No concepts. It's almost a cliche. Again, if they've got a brilliant concept that they really want to commit to the annals of rock history - great. But most rock concepts aren't nearly interesting enough that I'd want thirteen separate tracks dedicated to them, and they always have to jump through all these hoops like the obligatory rock ballad where the hero seeks his soul, and there's all these crap expository lyrics like "I went down to Jonah's farm / I smashed apart the fire alarm" which you can't sing without feeling a little stupid because who the hell is Jonah, and it's like - yes! We get it, The Wall was great! As was Operation: Mindcrime, and Scenes from a Memory. But instead of copying the format of those albums, why not use that time to tell us twelve stories?

Don't get me wrong, a concept's good when done well, when the music really whisks you away on a journey, when it's almost more of a soundtrack than an album, when the music is as much a part of the story as the lyrics if not moreso... but that's so rare, and they've already sort of done it once. Most of the time it's just some cool words set to some cool music, with a few recurring motifs to remind you that it's all basically connected. It's usually a gimmick.

Very convincingly argued. Your point about the expository lyrics is absolutely dead on.

[Zook]

Nothing Muse related.

[Pols Voice]

I don't want a concept album. If I don't like the concept, then every song is tainted by it. And if I like the concept, it still makes it harder to listen to individual tracks because they seem like part of a whole.

[Kotowboy]

I'm calling it right now.


" Dodecavarium ".

   I'm tellin ya.

Gotta be pentavarium, with 5 and 8 and all that.

Aqua-varium and will be about what lies...Beneath The Surface.

[robwebster]

Further, I'd say that one last big one would hold its own special meaning as far as it being post-MP and all--really show what the "new" DT can muster in that department. After all, everyone hailed ADTOE as this renewed inspiration--why not see how that translates to epics?

That's fair. There are plenty of brilliant reasons to write big long songs. Big is cinematic. Takes you on a proper journey, and if you don't like that... why are you listening to Dream Theater?! Musical journeys are kind of their thing. Plus, even if I do think twenty minute long songs are getting old - which I do! - the eight minuters must be even older, and the idea of a three minute song older still.

But I think that diversity is almost part of the problem. While I'd absolutely champion lots and lots of different sounds, I think I like each song to have its own character, and past a certain length, they threaten to develop split personalities. Maybe it's that that I'm tired of. It's not epics, or twenty-minuters, or anything to do with their size, it's more... kitchen sink songs. I definitely think In the Presence of Enemies would be better split into multiple songs. All right, more multiple songs. Cracking music, but possibly a little cluttered. It does Part 1 a world of good.

You're absolutely right, though, inasmuch as if they are going to do another epic - and I'm sure they'll fit in another one or two before the decade's up - now's a pretty good time. Lots to prove. So, yes. Go on, then. You've convinced me. Bring on a long song. But... a different breed of long song. Redefine the epic. They don't all have to be Supper's Ready. Octavarium was a tribute to what came before, the song's practically a history of progressive rock, that kind of navel-gazing was absolutely perfect for the story it was telling, and A Change of Seasons didn't really have the same identity-crisis thing in the same way as the others. Maybe that's why they get the lion's share of the positive attention on here.

I'm thinking out loud, now. Someone stop me!

[senecadawg2]

-I want acoustic guitars strumming away a la Solitary Shell.
-I want very proggy and experimental, but not overdone/wanky.
-I want diversity! This means no more than 1 (maybe 2) ballads, a solid mini epic (Trial of Tears Part 2?), and some really fun heavy tracks.
-I want more lyrical contributions from both JLB and JMX.
-I want to hear Mangini truly unleashed.
-And more than anything, even if I don't get any of the above... I want DT12!

[KevShmev]

Something else that needs to be said:

A great mix!

As much as I loved ADTOE, it could have sounded better.  And that can be said for practically every DT album of the last 15 years.  Is it really too much to ask for the band to give us a CD that is mixed really well and SOUNDS great?

[ColdFireYYZ]

I'd like something more proggy with a slight jazz influence. Not a full blown jazz or fusion album but some jazzy moments would be nice. Also, more piano and some Hammond.

Honestly I don't really care about concept albums. The music always overshadows the lyrics for me so a concept album isn't that big of a deal. I mean, I like SFAM's story and everything but I'd still love that album just as much if the lyrics were different and unrelated to each other.

[Cedar redaC]

A double album would be awesome. But of course, if it's got the Dream Theater name on it, most of us will buy it.

[Another_Won]

If any of the band members read this thread for inspiration they would simply be left with the fact that . . . . WE WANT IT ALL!

[mike099]

I hope we get more stuff a la Far From Heaven

.  Snap out of it snapple!   

[jonnybaxy]

More cowbell!
Turn the amps up to 11!

But more importantly, at least turn JMX up to 1... His bass has rarely been heard since TOT.

I don't really have a opinion of what they should do, at the end of the day it's DT, whatever they decide ti do it will be amazing and will shock us all again

[Pinga]

I just want an album of similar quality to ADTOE. It was their first great (even good) album in quite some time.

[?]

Your posts is the ultimate expression of my mind on this matter. Bravo, Sir.

More things that I want or don't want:

I don't want a double album. The last double album I listened to was Grace for Drowning by Steven Wilson and it suffers from being too long. And to be honest, I think Six Degrees could've been a top3 DT album if they had trimmed it down to fit one disc. (To quote JP in that Count of Tuscany pic: "pleez don't keel meh!")

Some experimentation would be welcome. Jordan is always trying new sounds and instruments, but I'd like to see the rest of the band do that too: JM could bring back the Chapman Stick, JP could try Ebow (I know he's already used it on some songs, but why not use it again?) or some other effects, etc. And as I said in that "what do you want the next DT album to sound like" thread, I would love the new album if it was dark but not too heavy with songs along the lines of Space-Dye Vest, The Great Debate and Beautiful Agony.

I'd love to see a thematic album, in the sense of it not telling a specific story (which is a concept album), but one that touches on similar lyrical themes and has recurring musical themes as well.  In other words, kind of like 6DOIT Disc 2, only more cohesive and better flowing.

Yes, that's a good compromise. Stronger connections than those going on in ADTOE and BCSL, but not a story-based concept. That's what I would appreciate 

I could see this kind of thing working and it would be a much better idea than a full-blown concept album with a story.

[wasteland]

I would love to see something of an underlying ethnic/world music influence is some songs. This approach was scrapped during the SDOIT session, but later heavily influenced the band (Jordan above all) during live improvisation, all of which I liked in a visceral way. I think it could work and be a nice way to experiment a bit. 

[Sycsa]

I'd like something more proggy with a slight jazz influence. Not a full blown jazz or fusion album but some jazzy moments would be nice. Also, more piano and some Hammond.

Oh yeah! Something in the vein of Lines in the Sand would be great. Although Jordan's Hammond sound pales in comparison to a real Hammond organ, the short piano and organ fills still blew my mind the first time I heard Breaking All Illusions. The organ solo is also the highlight of Bridges in the Sky for me. I always wanted to see Jordan play at least on a spinet Hammond and/or use a real Leslie like Derek did. Nevertheless, I like his playing and choice of sounds more and more and I'm really excited about his contribution to the new album.

[MoraWintersoul]

Octavarium was a tribute to what came before, the song's practically a history of progressive rock, that kind of navel-gazing was absolutely perfect for the story it was telling, and A Change of Seasons didn't really have the same identity-crisis thing in the same way as the others. Maybe that's why they get the lion's share of the positive attention on here.

I think you've quite nailed it.

Sonically - I am going to repeat after several posters in this thread - I'd like to hear DT doing a nicely balanced album: with equal measures of darker and happy, major, warm and fuzzy prog; elaborate songs with long solos they can't stop themselves from doing together with simpler numbers; ballads and rockers, just a little bit of everything. I'd like to see more lyrics from JLB and JMX and a better sound of drums, since we all agree ADTOE's mix did nothing for MM's talents, which is not so good when you have an awesome new drummer you want to show off to everyone. And DT has a rep of a band that likes to show off

However. Those are all options. I just want to like it and for the songs to have less parts I'd edit.

Also - I adore how these threads go from speculation, to information, to slowly piecing stuff from the interviews, to more speculation, to first singles and release dates and cover art and all the stuff in between. I have a feeling I'll love this thread as well

[Elaitch]

Personally, I'm just happy for another DT album. Let it be another ADTOE, I wouldn't mind... I was positively obsessed with that album for a long time after it came out. Considering ADTOE showed that they came back from the MP backlash fresher than ever, I trust that they know what they're doing and will deliver something even better this time around. I'm pretty sure it'll have about as much epic- proggy- heavy and calmness that it needs to have; we can probably trust them to pull that off Reading that Mangini will definitely be more involved also almost made my smile my pants.

[The Presence of Frenemies]

Further, I'd say that one last big one would hold its own special meaning as far as it being post-MP and all--really show what the "new" DT can muster in that department. After all, everyone hailed ADTOE as this renewed inspiration--why not see how that translates to epics?

That's fair. There are plenty of brilliant reasons to write big long songs. Big is cinematic. Takes you on a proper journey, and if you don't like that... why are you listening to Dream Theater?! Musical journeys are kind of their thing. Plus, even if I do think twenty minute long songs are getting old - which I do! - the eight minuters must be even older, and the idea of a three minute song older still.

But I think that diversity is almost part of the problem. While I'd absolutely champion lots and lots of different sounds, I think I like each song to have its own character, and past a certain length, they threaten to develop split personalities. Maybe it's that that I'm tired of. It's not epics, or twenty-minuters, or anything to do with their size, it's more... kitchen sink songs. I definitely think In the Presence of Enemies would be better split into multiple songs. All right, more multiple songs. Cracking music, but possibly a little cluttered. It does Part 1 a world of good.

You're absolutely right, though, inasmuch as if they are going to do another epic - and I'm sure they'll fit in another one or two before the decade's up - now's a pretty good time. Lots to prove. So, yes. Go on, then. You've convinced me. Bring on a long song. But... a different breed of long song. Redefine the epic. They don't all have to be Supper's Ready. Octavarium was a tribute to what came before, the song's practically a history of progressive rock, that kind of navel-gazing was absolutely perfect for the story it was telling, and A Change of Seasons didn't really have the same identity-crisis thing in the same way as the others. Maybe that's why they get the lion's share of the positive attention on here.

I'm thinking out loud, now. Someone stop me!

Interesting. I think there's something of a double-edged sword here re: where diversity best fits. Sure, throwing all your different styles into an epic might come off as kitchen sink-y and a bit unfocused, but at the same time, that means the song is guaranteed to have some sort of "hook" to just about all listeners. For example, the first 18 or so minutes of Octavarium is nothing special to me, but the last 6 minutes of the song are so awesome that they justify the 18 minutes of buildup.

Whereas, if one does the every-song-has-its-own-character-and-that's-how-we-get-diversity approach, one runs two risks:

1) There will be a couple of songs that don't appeal to parts of the fanbase at all (like how much of the 8V album doesn't appeal to the metalheads, or songs like As I Am or CM or TDEN do little for prog folks). A kind of inevitable effect for a band with this many sides, but I'd rather see the elements of their style interact more frequently. Take songs like Home, or The Killing Hand--I don't think many people say they are "not metal enough" or "not prog enough." More of that, regardless of song length, would be great.
2) Twelve albums into DT's career, the songs start to be stand-ins. "Oh, here's the long prog song. Here's the metal riff song. Here's the single. Here's the change-of-pace song." This got taken to such an extreme on ADTOE that we saw Mike Portnoy endorsing statements about how the band rewrote Images and Words. Yes, the songs would have individual character, but unless that character is out of the DT mold entirely (which could be a good thing or a bad thing), then it can come across as rehashed, DT-by-numbers in a certain light. The sample size of 20+ minute epics isn't really large enough for the band to be simply rehashing things, I think--certainly, none of their songs of that length to date have been cut from the same cloth.

I do think that if the band does pull an epic out, then it's best to do a double album. Maybe they'd run out of steam and it would be too much, but I trust them to come up with ~100 minutes of good music. While I love my long songs, I don't want any more 6- or 7-song-long albums. There's just not enough to grab onto.

Yeah, I'm descending into thinking-out-loud mode as well right now...

[Destiny Of Chaos]

No requests from me. Just thankfulness that these amazing musicians are still churning out incredible albums.

[Cedar redaC]

No requests from me. Just thankfulness that these amazing musicians are still churning out incredible albums.

At the end of the day, most of us probably agree with that.

[Madman Shepherd]

WWRD?

I think they would take their new labelmates out on tour with them.  Maybe as a very special guest meaning DT will get at least 80-90 minutes or more to play.

I don't even like Rush that much, although in the past few years I have gained a greater appreciation for them, but a tour like that would be epic. 

[mike099]

WWRD?

I think they would take their new labelmates out on tour with them.  Maybe as a very special guest meaning DT will get at least 80-90 minutes or more to play.

I don't even like Rush that much, although in the past few years I have gained a greater appreciation for them, but a tour like that would be epic.

I have heard that DT used to have an 'evening with DT' tour.  If Rush can play 3 hours at their age, then DT should be able to do it.  Many folks including myself would pay for a ticket to see an 'evening with DT' again.  Just a newbies opinion

[Madman Shepherd]

WWRD?

I think they would take their new labelmates out on tour with them.  Maybe as a very special guest meaning DT will get at least 80-90 minutes or more to play.

I don't even like Rush that much, although in the past few years I have gained a greater appreciation for them, but a tour like that would be epic.

I have heard that DT used to have an 'evening with DT' tour.  If Rush can play 3 hours at their age, then DT should be able to do it.  Many folks including myself would pay for a ticket to see an 'evening with DT' again.  Just a newbies opinion

Yeah they used to do those shows but for the most part have said that they were far too exhausting and prefer not to, although they haven't ruled it out.

What I meant is that if they tour with Rush, Rush would obviously be the headliner but since Dream Theater is a pretty big name in and of themselves, I would hope that they would be given more than just the standard 45-60 minute opening slot.  I don't know if they would coheadline though. 

[KevShmev]

What I meant is that if they tour with Rush, Rush would obviously be the headliner but since Dream Theater is a pretty big name in and of themselves, I would hope that they would be given more than just the standard 45-60 minute opening slot.  I don't know if they would coheadline though.

With all due respect, are you kidding?  DT would have zero chance in hell at co-headlining a tour with a band as big as Rush.  DT is not that big of a name, especially compared to Rush, who are one of the few bands born out of the 70s who can still draw well on their own.

Besides, it will never happen. 

a) Rush hasn't had an opening act since 1994.
b) Rush doesn't need or want an opening act.
c) Rush has never done a co-headlining tour.

Sure, it is fun to dream about, but the odds of Rush and Dream Theater ever doing a co-headlining tour are about the same as Charlize Theron agreeing to marry me tomorrow.

[adastra]

I wish it would be something like this;

1) Not too heavy.. Something like Falling Into Infinity type "heaviness"
2) Catchy choruses. I don't mean like the choruses Dream Theater has novadays. Ya know, Petrucci playing power chords / Rudess adding some strings.
I mean more like Just let me breathe, Burning my soul, etc. More catchy, Groovy stuff.. though im pretty sure that part of Dream Theater died when Derek left.
3) Shorter songs with less wanking.  Just like Falling into Infinity.
4) One epic song..

I guess I just want another Falling into Inifinity

[Unlegit]

Dream Theater and Rush 

Chances of that happening is very slim, though, like 0 percent.

[Cedar redaC]

Just imagine it: at the end of the show, they could all come on stage and play some awesome medley of all of their "epics". Trapped inside this Octavarium with Bytor and the Snow-Dog during A Change of Seasons in 2112. Imagine it!


Of course, this would all be accompanied by the Clockwork Angels Orchestra from the current tour.

[MoraWintersoul]

Yeah they used to do those shows but for the most part have said that they were far too exhausting and prefer not to, although they haven't ruled it out.

More recently, they've said it's probably going to happen, but the "when" is the question.

[Madman Shepherd]

What I meant is that if they tour with Rush, Rush would obviously be the headliner but since Dream Theater is a pretty big name in and of themselves, I would hope that they would be given more than just the standard 45-60 minute opening slot.  I don't know if they would coheadline though.

With all due respect, are you kidding?  DT would have zero chance in hell at co-headlining a tour with a band as big as Rush.  DT is not that big of a name, especially compared to Rush, who are one of the few bands born out of the 70s who can still draw well on their own.

Well, I did say

What I meant is that if they tour with Rush, Rush would obviously be the headliner but since Dream Theater is a pretty big name in and of themselves, I would hope that they would be given more than just the standard 45-60 minute opening slot. 

Besides, it will never happen. 

a) Rush hasn't had an opening act since 1994.
b) Rush doesn't need or want an opening act.
c) Rush has never done a co-headlining tour.

Well I didn't know that.  I also said I have never really been a Rush fan but I knew Rush was way bigger than DT.  I just figured since DT is a pretty big name in the prog world that if they did tour, it wouldn't be the standard opening act, but rather a very special guest/extended opener type of deal. 

I don't think its as cut and dry as you say but I also had no idea they haven't had an opener in 20 years. 

[KevShmev]

You figured wrong, and yes, it really is that cut and dried.

[Mladen]

It's been long enough!     

Myung HAS to be re-introduced into the band.

Have you listened to ADTOE? 

[BlobVanDam]

It's been long enough!     

Myung HAS to be re-introduced into the band.

Have you listened to ADTOE? 

Have you listened to BMUBMD?