Author Topic: You don't need religion to have morals  (Read 4919 times)

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Offline Rathma

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You don't need religion to have morals
« on: November 24, 2012, 11:34:46 PM »

Offline theseoafs

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Re: You don't need religion to have morals
« Reply #1 on: November 24, 2012, 11:51:50 PM »
Utter truth.

Offline Implode

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Re: You don't need religion to have morals
« Reply #2 on: November 25, 2012, 12:46:15 AM »
I agree.

Offline wasteland

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Re: You don't need religion to have morals
« Reply #3 on: November 25, 2012, 01:39:21 AM »
Yes. Moral and ethics exists outside religion just as well.
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Offline BlobVanDam

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Re: You don't need religion to have morals
« Reply #4 on: November 25, 2012, 01:43:57 AM »
But without religion, there is no objective right and wrong, which means atheists will all be running around killing people.



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Offline adace

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Re: You don't need religion to have morals
« Reply #5 on: November 25, 2012, 02:25:51 AM »
You may not need religion to be moral, but I think a lot of "secular" ethics/morality is derived from religion anyway.

Online Adami

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Re: You don't need religion to have morals
« Reply #6 on: November 25, 2012, 02:27:13 AM »
You may not need religion to be moral, but I think a lot of "secular" ethics/morality is derived from religion anyway.

Or possibly the religious morals were derived from a sense of logic and/or cultural needs at the time thus making them pretty similar to secular ethics/morals?
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Offline adace

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Re: You don't need religion to have morals
« Reply #7 on: November 25, 2012, 02:50:56 AM »
You may not need religion to be moral, but I think a lot of "secular" ethics/morality is derived from religion anyway.

Or possibly the religious morals were derived from a sense of logic and/or cultural needs at the time thus making them pretty similar to secular ethics/morals?
Could be. It's a classic chicken/egg problem.

Online Adami

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Re: You don't need religion to have morals
« Reply #8 on: November 25, 2012, 03:03:11 AM »
You may not need religion to be moral, but I think a lot of "secular" ethics/morality is derived from religion anyway.

Or possibly the religious morals were derived from a sense of logic and/or cultural needs at the time thus making them pretty similar to secular ethics/morals?
Could be. It's a classic chicken/egg problem.

You calling me a chicken?

Don't egg me on brah!
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Offline adace

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Re: You don't need religion to have morals
« Reply #9 on: November 25, 2012, 03:06:41 AM »
You may not need religion to be moral, but I think a lot of "secular" ethics/morality is derived from religion anyway.

Or possibly the religious morals were derived from a sense of logic and/or cultural needs at the time thus making them pretty similar to secular ethics/morals?
Could be. It's a classic chicken/egg problem.

You calling me a chicken?

Don't egg me on brah!
:lol

Offline hefdaddy42

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Offline Rathma

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Re: You don't need religion to have morals
« Reply #11 on: November 25, 2012, 03:55:20 AM »
You may not need religion to be moral, but I think a lot of "secular" ethics/morality is derived from religion anyway.

Secular morals that are derived from religion as opposed to empathy? Which might those be?

Offline adace

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Re: You don't need religion to have morals
« Reply #12 on: November 25, 2012, 04:15:08 AM »
You may not need religion to be moral, but I think a lot of "secular" ethics/morality is derived from religion anyway.

Secular morals that are derived from religion as opposed to empathy? Which might those be?
Well none really. I guess I should have been more clear in my first post. I only meant that Western humanism tends to rely on the Bible as a basic moral reference even if it denies its spiritual authority.

Online Chino

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Re: You don't need religion to have morals
« Reply #13 on: November 25, 2012, 05:04:45 AM »

Offline kirksnosehair

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Offline millahh

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Re: You don't need religion to have morals
« Reply #15 on: November 25, 2012, 07:53:30 AM »
You may not need religion to be moral, but I think a lot of "secular" ethics/morality is derived from religion anyway.

Secular morals that are derived from religion as opposed to empathy? Which might those be?
Well none really. I guess I should have been more clear in my first post. I only meant that Western humanism tends to rely on the Bible as a basic moral reference even if it denies its spiritual authority.

I'd be more inclined to say that the morals of both humanism and the Bible (with some obvious major exceptions in the case of the latter) rely on natural law and empathy, rather than humanism relying on the bible.
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Offline rumborak

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Re: You don't need religion to have morals
« Reply #16 on: November 25, 2012, 08:53:23 AM »
The weirdest part of those claims is the ubiquitous counterexamples to it. And yet the adherents stick to their claims.
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Offline Ħ

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Re: You don't need religion to have morals
« Reply #17 on: November 25, 2012, 12:37:48 PM »
"All great works are prepared in the desert, including the redemption of the world. The precursors, the followers, the Master Himself, all obeyed or have to obey one and the same law. Prophets, apostles, preachers, martyrs, pioneers of knowledge, inspired artists in every art, ordinary men and the Man-God, all pay tribute to loneliness, to the life of silence, to the night." - A. G. Sertillanges

Offline jammindude

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Re: You don't need religion to have morals
« Reply #18 on: November 25, 2012, 12:58:35 PM »
I personally don't recall anyone claiming that without religion there is no morals.   I've never believed that, or thought that...nor do I know anyone who thinks that.

What I *DO* believe, is that we have all been given an internal "moral compass" by God...but we need to constantly re-calibrate it under his guidance.   It can give us false readings if we are not consistently being corrected by him. 

But to claim that anything is this "black and white"???   To imply that everyone else is claiming something absolute...and then countering with the opposite absolute??  Come on.   You guys know that life is not that simple. 
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Offline Ħ

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Re: You don't need religion to have morals
« Reply #19 on: November 25, 2012, 01:01:41 PM »
Yup. Atheists and secular humanists are simply blissfully unaware of their morality coming from God.  :biggrin:
"All great works are prepared in the desert, including the redemption of the world. The precursors, the followers, the Master Himself, all obeyed or have to obey one and the same law. Prophets, apostles, preachers, martyrs, pioneers of knowledge, inspired artists in every art, ordinary men and the Man-God, all pay tribute to loneliness, to the life of silence, to the night." - A. G. Sertillanges

Online Adami

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Re: You don't need religion to have morals
« Reply #20 on: November 25, 2012, 01:04:32 PM »
Yup. Atheists and secular humanists are simply blissfully unaware of their morality coming from God.  :biggrin:

Yup. And theists are simply blissfully unaware of god's morality coming from a great cosmic Ouija board.
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Offline theseoafs

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Re: You don't need religion to have morals
« Reply #21 on: November 25, 2012, 01:05:55 PM »
:clap:

Offline Ħ

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Re: You don't need religion to have morals
« Reply #22 on: November 25, 2012, 01:06:59 PM »
Oh Adami, you jokester, you.
"All great works are prepared in the desert, including the redemption of the world. The precursors, the followers, the Master Himself, all obeyed or have to obey one and the same law. Prophets, apostles, preachers, martyrs, pioneers of knowledge, inspired artists in every art, ordinary men and the Man-God, all pay tribute to loneliness, to the life of silence, to the night." - A. G. Sertillanges

Online Adami

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Re: You don't need religion to have morals
« Reply #23 on: November 25, 2012, 01:15:28 PM »
Well if I may ask a question.

If this is too off topic, just let me know.

For all the theists, especially the Christians on this board (who well....I think are all the theists here anyway) which of gods laws/commandments etc are considered issues of morality? I mean, I get the 10 commandments, so we can exclude those for now. But for instance, lots of christians consider homosexuality to be a moral issue, but what about the dietary restrictions for the jews? Are those considered issues of morality? What is/isn't?

Honestly curious. I'd consult the cosmic Ouija board, but god is borrowing it at the moment.
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Offline PowerSlave

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Re: You don't need religion to have morals
« Reply #24 on: November 25, 2012, 01:50:42 PM »
I personally don't recall anyone claiming that without religion there is no morals.   I've never believed that, or thought that...nor do I know anyone who thinks that.

Maybe not on this message board. However, there are plenty of people that do believe exactly that.
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Offline Ħ

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Re: You don't need religion to have morals
« Reply #25 on: November 25, 2012, 04:30:49 PM »
Well if I may ask a question.

If this is too off topic, just let me know.

For all the theists, especially the Christians on this board (who well....I think are all the theists here anyway) which of gods laws/commandments etc are considered issues of morality? I mean, I get the 10 commandments, so we can exclude those for now. But for instance, lots of christians consider homosexuality to be a moral issue, but what about the dietary restrictions for the jews? Are those considered issues of morality? What is/isn't?

Honestly curious. I'd consult the cosmic Ouija board, but god is borrowing it at the moment.
What things are considered issues of morality? Whatever you'd like. Anytime a person asks "Is X right or wrong?", he's making X a moral issue. Anyone (atheist, theist, etc) can pose that kind of question.
"All great works are prepared in the desert, including the redemption of the world. The precursors, the followers, the Master Himself, all obeyed or have to obey one and the same law. Prophets, apostles, preachers, martyrs, pioneers of knowledge, inspired artists in every art, ordinary men and the Man-God, all pay tribute to loneliness, to the life of silence, to the night." - A. G. Sertillanges

Online Adami

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Re: You don't need religion to have morals
« Reply #26 on: November 25, 2012, 04:40:13 PM »
Well if I may ask a question.

If this is too off topic, just let me know.

For all the theists, especially the Christians on this board (who well....I think are all the theists here anyway) which of gods laws/commandments etc are considered issues of morality? I mean, I get the 10 commandments, so we can exclude those for now. But for instance, lots of christians consider homosexuality to be a moral issue, but what about the dietary restrictions for the jews? Are those considered issues of morality? What is/isn't?

Honestly curious. I'd consult the cosmic Ouija board, but god is borrowing it at the moment.
What things are considered issues of morality? Whatever you'd like. Anytime a person asks "Is X right or wrong?", he's making X a moral issue. Anyone (atheist, theist, etc) can pose that kind of question.

So to continue the example I made. Jews who don't eat milk and meat because of the bible, you'd consider that a moral issue?

If so, since gods rules clearly changed, how could morality be changed?
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Offline Ħ

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Re: You don't need religion to have morals
« Reply #27 on: November 25, 2012, 04:44:12 PM »
What do you mean exactly when you say "moral issue"? I'm not on the same page as you.
"All great works are prepared in the desert, including the redemption of the world. The precursors, the followers, the Master Himself, all obeyed or have to obey one and the same law. Prophets, apostles, preachers, martyrs, pioneers of knowledge, inspired artists in every art, ordinary men and the Man-God, all pay tribute to loneliness, to the life of silence, to the night." - A. G. Sertillanges

Offline ResultsMayVary

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Re: You don't need religion to have morals
« Reply #28 on: November 25, 2012, 06:28:11 PM »
Yea, this is the truth. I don't understand how anyone could dispute this.
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Offline Ħ

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Re: You don't need religion to have morals
« Reply #29 on: November 25, 2012, 06:35:40 PM »
I was asked by a fellow DTFer to post this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2h7PFg5Dwk
"All great works are prepared in the desert, including the redemption of the world. The precursors, the followers, the Master Himself, all obeyed or have to obey one and the same law. Prophets, apostles, preachers, martyrs, pioneers of knowledge, inspired artists in every art, ordinary men and the Man-God, all pay tribute to loneliness, to the life of silence, to the night." - A. G. Sertillanges

Offline millahh

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Re: You don't need religion to have morals
« Reply #30 on: November 25, 2012, 07:03:36 PM »
I personally don't recall anyone claiming that without religion there is no morals.   I've never believed that, or thought that...nor do I know anyone who thinks that.

Maybe not on this message board. However, there are plenty of people that do believe exactly that.

Many on the religious right believe it, as exemplified by blaming Columbine on the teaching of evolution.  the thinking is that without religion (and the threat if hell), people have no reason not to be complete assholes to one anther, therefore there will be complete immorality and anarchy.  They believe that there is no such thing as inherent good in people, and that we are all monsters if there is no threat of eternal damnation hanging over us.
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Offline jammindude

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Re: You don't need religion to have morals
« Reply #31 on: November 25, 2012, 07:54:01 PM »
I personally don't recall anyone claiming that without religion there is no morals.   I've never believed that, or thought that...nor do I know anyone who thinks that.

Maybe not on this message board. However, there are plenty of people that do believe exactly that.

Many on the religious right believe it, as exemplified by blaming Columbine on the teaching of evolution.  the thinking is that without religion (and the threat if hell), people have no reason not to be complete assholes to one anther, therefore there will be complete immorality and anarchy.  They believe that there is no such thing as inherent good in people, and that we are all monsters if there is no threat of eternal damnation hanging over us.

I would argue that religious leaders of that type have been around ever since religion was a TRIBAL thing.   That dynamic is not exclusive to (and far predates) the birth of Christianity forward.
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Offline TL

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Re: You don't need religion to have morals
« Reply #32 on: November 25, 2012, 08:39:22 PM »
My reaction when reading the thread title/OP;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=74ZhrGR0D0Y

Offline adace

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Re: You don't need religion to have morals
« Reply #33 on: November 25, 2012, 09:10:30 PM »
Let's not forget the flipside of the OP. You don't need morals to be religious. Cases in point: Christian Crusaders and Islamic extremists.

Offline Ħ

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Re: You don't need religion to have morals
« Reply #34 on: November 25, 2012, 09:22:01 PM »
I mean, they had morals, just not very good ones.
"All great works are prepared in the desert, including the redemption of the world. The precursors, the followers, the Master Himself, all obeyed or have to obey one and the same law. Prophets, apostles, preachers, martyrs, pioneers of knowledge, inspired artists in every art, ordinary men and the Man-God, all pay tribute to loneliness, to the life of silence, to the night." - A. G. Sertillanges