General musings about pirating

[Perpetual Change]

The internet is the best promotion tool in this age. It's word of mouth times million. Labels, promoters - they are all dinosaurs. They will be extinct, as new business models are taking over.

Yeah, but that hasn't happened yet, and right now better sales=better booking.

r0cken, you seem awfully dismissive of every argument that suggests buying music is the perhaps more moral than stealing as much of it as you can.

[r0cken]

r0cken, you seem awfully dismissive of every argument that suggests buying music is the perhaps more moral than stealing as much of it as you can.

It is more moral buying it, of course. The artist should be paid.
What I'm saying is that there's a lot more to it, than the one-dimensional "downloading is stealing" argument. Dismissing the economic issue for a moment, one could say that there are different degrees of moral, and definitely different degrees of illegal. Stealing a chewing gum is different from robbing a bank, is different from downloading a song. Some would say that stealing is stealing is stealing, but even the law wouldn't agree with you.

And then, you could see downloading an album as copying it from a friend. Legal? Moral? You'd get different answers at different times and places. See, for example the "Audio Home Recording Act" of 1992 (lots have changed since then, I know).

[ReaPsTA]

r0cken, you seem awfully dismissive of every argument that suggests buying music is the perhaps more moral than stealing as much of it as you can.

Related story.

My dad got the new Led Zeppelin Celebration Day CD/DVD set.  I asked him if I could borrow it.  I took the CD's up to my room and ripped them to my computer.  I then put the physical CD's back in the case and gave them back to my dad. 

He was happy to have his CD's back.  But I know that I stole from him, and the pain burns deep in my heart.

[MoraWintersoul]

I guess the injustice is eliminated by the availability of torrent trackers 

It would be way better to hear 90% of what you want legally with a paid subscription though luckily, a lot of bands I'm into now have Bandcamps and free streaming or even free downloads, and some others are completely okay with people downloading their stuff. So I'm doing much less illegal downloading than last year. And reviewing for a webzine has its perks

[Perpetual Change]

r0cken, you seem awfully dismissive of every argument that suggests buying music is the perhaps more moral than stealing as much of it as you can.

It is more moral buying it, of course. The artist should be paid.
What I'm saying is that there's a lot more to it, than the one-dimensional "downloading is stealing" argument. Dismissing the economic issue for a moment, one could say that there are different degrees of moral, and definitely different degrees of illegal. Stealing a chewing gum is different from robbing a bank, is different from downloading a song. Some would say that stealing is stealing is stealing, but even the law wouldn't agree with you.

And then, you could see downloading an album as copying it from a friend. Legal? Moral? You'd get different answers at different times and places. See, for example the "Audio Home Recording Act" of 1992 (lots have changed since then, I know).

Yeah, I know. I realize that the internet music culture has found all and every reason to act like downloading music isn't really that immoral or illegal. But, in most cases, they're wrong, and just trying to justify (imo) a lazy and greedy habit.

r0cken, you seem awfully dismissive of every argument that suggests buying music is the perhaps more moral than stealing as much of it as you can.

Related story.

My dad got the new Led Zeppelin Celebration Day CD/DVD set.  I asked him if I could borrow it.  I took the CD's up to my room and ripped them to my computer.  I then put the physical CD's back in the case and gave them back to my dad. 

He was happy to have his CD's back.  But I know that I stole from him, and the pain burns deep in my heart.

IIRC, that's neither illegal nor immoral.

[r0cken]

It would be way better to hear 90% of what you want legally with a paid subscription though.

I think that's wrong. Those subscription services, like Spotify, are the absolute evil. They make almost no money for the artist, they only make the corporations rich. Yet, lots of people feel it's okay, because it's legal, and no moral questions arise.
Speaking of the benefit to the artist, it's almost no different than downloading. It might be even worse actually, cause you're not aware of the problem.

[MoraWintersoul]

Speaking of the benefit to the artist, it's almost no different than downloading. It might be even worse actually, cause you're not aware of the problem.

It is a step in more or less a right direction. On the previous page, I was saying how it's silly that people have these huge debates whether Spotify is evil or not, and meanwhile, a lot of us in somewhat less fortunate countries don't even have it heck, I have only ever heard of it because I'm interested in these things; I purely doubt a lot of my friends are even aware of Spotify.

[philmcson]

I guess the injustice is eliminated by the availability of torrent trackers 

It would be way better to hear 90% of what you want legally with a paid subscription though luckily, a lot of bands I'm into now have Bandcamps and free streaming or even free downloads, and some others are completely okay with people downloading their stuff. So I'm doing much less illegal downloading than last year. And reviewing for a webzine has its perks

Sure, but first of all it's a financial problem, and second, you know to well that in our geographic region it may be sometimes too costy, nerve-wrecking and lenghty to obtain some records which aren't among the most popular, especially if you're going for ownership of physical media (CDs)...... yesterday I listened to Redemption's latest album, and I had three/four posibilities:

a) go to the local record stores and ask who the retailer for Redemption is (most often it depends on which record label the band belongs to; the label then makes a contract with an appreciated store that gets the exclusive right to import their media), then, after finding it, order and wait for approximately 2 weeks

b) order through Amazon for 10 € + 6 € shipping. Yeah right......
c) pay the download via Amazon for some 9 € - this would be even okay.....
d) just pirate it

Take a hint: at the moment I'm unemployed...... 

[jingle.boy]

It would be way better to hear 90% of what you want legally with a paid subscription though.

I think that's wrong. Those subscription services, like Spotify, are the absolute evil. They make almost no money for the artist, they only make the corporations rich. Yet, lots of people feel it's okay, because it's legal, and no moral questions arise.
Speaking of the benefit to the artist, it's almost no different than downloading. It might be even worse actually, cause you're not aware of the problem.

What corporation is Spotify making money for?  Certainly not themselves.  They're gonna bleed dry within the next 12 months if they don't get another round of funding.  15 million customers, only 4 million are paying.  Their cost of sales (ie, label licensing fees) was $236 million in 2011.  That's hardly making any corporation rich.

This is an entertaining thread.

[Chino]

I would gladly pay Apple $10 a month for access to stream their entire iTunes library.

[r0cken]

If Spotify doesn't make any money for anybody, it's even more pointless.

[snapple]

It would be way better to hear 90% of what you want legally with a paid subscription though.

I think that's wrong. Those subscription services, like Spotify, are the absolute evil. They make almost no money for the artist, they only make the corporations rich. Yet, lots of people feel it's okay, because it's legal, and no moral questions arise.
Speaking of the benefit to the artist, it's almost no different than downloading. It might be even worse actually, cause you're not aware of the problem.

What corporation is Spotify making money for?  Certainly not themselves.  They're gonna bleed dry within the next 12 months if they don't get another round of funding.  15 million customers, only 4 million are paying.  Their cost of sales (ie, label licensing fees) was $236 million in 2011.  That's hardly making any corporation rich.

This is an entertaining thread.

You're missing ad revenue.

[jingle.boy]

Ad revenue or not, they had total revenues of $244M in 2011, with cost of sales at $238M.  Add in their other costs, and they posted a net loss of almost $60M ... up from a net loss of $39.5M in 2010.

It's a good business model, they just haven't figured out the economics of it yet.  Who knows if they ever will.

[SeRoX]

How many album purchases do you afford yourself a month/year?
Buying albums is not luxury for me. I have many favourite musicians in my country, plus many international bands or artists and probably I buy 2-3 albums in a month. But it changes of course. Sometimes it could 1, sometimes 5 in a month.

What do you do when you can't afford to buy music? Pirate it or just don't listen to it?
Well, like I said above if the band or the artist is one of my fav I buy their stuff. Other than that, if I just want to check out some stuff from other bands I'm not familiar I download. If I love it I buy them too.

Do you download to sample the music, before you buy?
If it's from my favorite band or musician. No! I definitely buy no matter what. But my favorite or not, I do not download I just listen samples on the net. For instance from amazon for just a minute for each song. That's all.

Do you prefer digital or physical media?
Physical. I mean they are like book to me. I can't enjoy pdf so much for reading. I need to hold them. But I buy some of stuff dijital as well.

Does it matter to you if it's an established "rich" band, or a struggling, lesser known artist?
Well, no of course. I'm not interested in how big they are both financially or popularity. 

What about albums you only "sorta" like? Do you buy them anyway?
Again, if they are from my all time favorite bands like Dream Theater, Anathema, Within Temptation... I buy no matter what. Good or bad or even horrible. But for the other band's albums I just started to listen or sorta like, firstly I download their albums and if I like them much I buy them too.

[Juular]

How many album purchases do you afford yourself a month/year?
Usually between 5 and 10 CDs a month.

What do you do when you can't afford to buy music? Pirate it or just don't listen to it?
If it's not on Simfy (something like Spotify) which I pay 5€ a month for, I don't listen to it. Sometimes I check Youtube for samples.

Do you download to sample the music, before you buy?
No.

Do you prefer digital or physical media?
Physical only.

Does it matter to you if it's an established "rich" band, or a struggling, lesser known artist?
No. I buy what I like, no matter what it is.

What about albums you only "sorta" like? Do you buy them anyway?
Sometimes but not very often.

[ReaPsTA]

r0cken, you seem awfully dismissive of every argument that suggests buying music is the perhaps more moral than stealing as much of it as you can.

Related story.

My dad got the new Led Zeppelin Celebration Day CD/DVD set.  I asked him if I could borrow it.  I took the CD's up to my room and ripped them to my computer.  I then put the physical CD's back in the case and gave them back to my dad. 

He was happy to have his CD's back.  But I know that I stole from him, and the pain burns deep in my heart.

IIRC, that's neither illegal nor immoral.

Are you sure about that?  Didn't I "steal" from Led Zeppelin by not buying it myself?

[r0cken]

I think you shouldn't be allowed to sit on the same couch with your dad, while he listens to his Zeppelin CDs. After all, you didn't pay for them...
And there should be a minimal distance defined, that a person keeps from other people's CDs. Just in case.

[Adami]

I'm not sure I understand the point of this thread r0cken. I mean, you seem rather secure in your commitment to pirating, and that is totally fine. However you also seem rather.....I dunno, upset at people who don't agree. You don't really seem too interested in a real conversation, and you said yourself that you're bewildered by opposing points of view.

So....what exactly were you hoping to get out of this thread? Some people pirate, some people don't. Those that do thing it's a perfectly okay thing to do, those that don't feel it's not as okay to do. In the end it's really not the biggest deal anymore. So what do you hope for this thread?

Not trying to sound antogonistic or anything mind you, I've enjoyed reading it and have no real stake in the matter, I was just curious. 

[r0cken]

That last post of mine was in a joking tone... Maybe I should've through a smiley in. Don't take it too seriously.

[Adami]

That last post of mine was in a joking tone, not angry... Maybe I should've through a smiley in. Don't take it too seriously.

Oh no I figured as much, I just meant in general. You don't seem so much angry, as just kind of defensive against anyone who disagrees with you. But my question still stands as to what you kind of hoped to get out of this thread.

[Cedar redaC]

Totally Unrelated Post:

Adami, you are coming up on 20000 posts. Congrats dude!

[Adami]

Totally Unrelated Post:

Adami, you are coming up on 20000 posts. Congrats dude!

Pretty sure I've hit that number several times lol. They keep deleting old posts which brings me down. Doesn't matter much anyway, but thanks bro.

[r0cken]

Adami, well, someone have to represent the other side, no? Otherwise there would be no discussion... And obviously it couldn't just stay in the questions and answers template, it was bound to develop into a discussion.

What I hoped to get out of the thread, I already got (as I mentioned earlier). Wanted a general look at how people feel towards the subject and their habits of buying vs downloading.
Albeit, someone told me the answers here might not be very representative, but for now that's what we got.

[Cedar redaC]

Totally Unrelated Post:

Adami, you are coming up on 20000 posts. Congrats dude!

Pretty sure I've hit that number several times lol. They keep deleting old posts which brings me down. Doesn't matter much anyway, but thanks bro.

Don't let The Man bring you down!

[Adami]

Adami, well, someone have to represent the other side, no? Otherwise there would be no discussion... And obviously it couldn't just stay in the questions and answers template, it was bound to develop into a discussion.

What I hoped to get out of the thread, I already got (as I mentioned earlier). Wanted a general look at how people feel towards the subject and their habits of buying vs downloading.
Albeit, someone told me the answers here might not be very representative, but for now that's what we got.

Gotcha. Thanks.

[MoraWintersoul]

You know to well that in our geographic region it may be sometimes too costy, nerve-wrecking and lenghty to obtain some records which aren't among the most popular, especially if you're going for ownership of physical media (CDs)......

Sadly that's the way it goes.

I've been told once, when I tried to justify my downloading habits by saying I plan on obtaining every CD I enjoyed when it becomes easier for me to do so, that I have the choice of simply not listening to anything I can't afford. But this was said by a middle-aged, single man in a rich European country with a steady paycheck. I doubt he could ever mentally put himself into my position.

I am trying to buy a bit more, slowly switch to legal ways of acquiring/listening to music, go to every show I can and remember that, whenever I do download, I'm not doing a good thing and that I am somewhat obliged, especially if I liked it, to get it later, whether it's within a year or three years from now. That's all that I can do right now and I think that's enough for now.

They say my/our generation is a generation of music thieves. But something equally important was stolen from us - our perspective and maybe future. At least that's how it is where I live. Also, if you shape your society into one where culture is devalued, don't be surprised if your children attribute no monetary value to music. Unlike me, most even don't consider it stealing, since it's "already there" and they won't be punished for it.

[wasteland]

They say my/our generation is a generation of music thieves. But something equally important was stolen from us - our perspective and maybe future. At least that's how it is where I live. Also, if you shape your society into one where culture is devalued, don't be surprised if your children attribute no monetary value to music. Unlike me, most even don't consider it stealing, since it's "already there" and they won't be punished for it.

While this does not make up for stealing, which is sadly what pirating music ultimately is about, this is very true...

[philmcson]

They say my/our generation is a generation of music thieves. But something equally important was stolen from us - our perspective and maybe future. At least that's how it is where I live. Also, if you shape your society into one where culture is devalued, don't be surprised if your children attribute no monetary value to music. Unlike me, most even don't consider it stealing, since it's "already there" and they won't be punished for it.

While this does not make up for stealing, which is sadly what pirating music ultimately is about, this is very true...

Dito.

[kirksnosehair]

You know to well that in our geographic region it may be sometimes too costy, nerve-wrecking and lenghty to obtain some records which aren't among the most popular, especially if you're going for ownership of physical media (CDs)......

Sadly that's the way it goes.

I've been told once, when I tried to justify my downloading habits by saying I plan on obtaining every CD I enjoyed when it becomes easier for me to do so, that I have the choice of simply not listening to anything I can't afford. But this was said by a middle-aged, single man in a rich European country with a steady paycheck. I doubt he could ever mentally put himself into my position.

I am trying to buy a bit more, slowly switch to legal ways of acquiring/listening to music, go to every show I can and remember that, whenever I do download, I'm not doing a good thing and that I am somewhat obliged, especially if I liked it, to get it later, whether it's within a year or three years from now. That's all that I can do right now and I think that's enough for now.

They say my/our generation is a generation of music thieves. But something equally important was stolen from us - our perspective and maybe future. At least that's how it is where I live. Also, if you shape your society into one where culture is devalued, don't be surprised if your children attribute no monetary value to music. Unlike me, most even don't consider it stealing, since it's "already there" and they won't be punished for it.

And that's the key right there.  There are -for all practical purposes- no consequences for stealing music.  Until or unless there ARE consequences for it, people will just do it.    I'm not talking about jail or anything.  I'm talking about COST.  Oh, it's coming too.  That IS going to be the solution.  It's not coming tomorrow, but it's coming.  ISPs are going to be forced into dealing with this problem sooner rather than later.

[Chino]

All ISPs will need to participate, or else everyone will just switch to the one that won't fuck you.


Side thought. I hate the cost of merchadise. I find it way overpriced. If bands included a free digital download of an album with the purchase of a shirt or something... well, I'd have a lot more band shirts.

[MoraWintersoul]

ISPs are going to be forced into dealing with this problem sooner rather than later.

Except that you can't regulate the internet. There will always be this or that proxy or solution.

[Dark Castle]

I don't mind paying $15 for a CD or $20-$30 for a vinyl, I just limit myself to one of each or 1 vinyl or two CD's a week.

[jingle.boy]

Barry... I hear you, but - and as an IT leader, you would know this better than anyone - build a better mousetrap, the mice will eventually get smarter.

[Perpetual Change]

It would be way better to hear 90% of what you want legally with a paid subscription though.

I think that's wrong. Those subscription services, like Spotify, are the absolute evil. They make almost no money for the artist, they only make the corporations rich. Yet, lots of people feel it's okay, because it's legal, and no moral questions arise.
Speaking of the benefit to the artist, it's almost no different than downloading. It might be even worse actually, cause you're not aware of the problem.

What corporation is Spotify making money for?  Certainly not themselves.  They're gonna bleed dry within the next 12 months if they don't get another round of funding.  15 million customers, only 4 million are paying.  Their cost of sales (ie, label licensing fees) was $236 million in 2011.  That's hardly making any corporation rich.

This is an entertaining thread.

Agreed. This thread totally reeks of the downloading subculture on the internet which (like the marijuna subculture) goes around acting like the behavior is 100 percent cool with no harm done, and all detractors are just uninformed victims of some mass brainwashing campaign.

[Cedar redaC]

^ This is definitely well put. I can certainly see it in the people around me.