Author Topic: Election lost; back to business as usual  (Read 1992 times)

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Offline rumborak

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Election lost; back to business as usual
« on: November 19, 2012, 02:21:47 PM »
https://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2012/11/19/rubio-breaks-it-down-pitbull-is-no-eminem/

Quote
Asked how old the Earth is, Rubio said such an answer was not his to give.

Im not a scientist. I dont think Im qualified to answer a question like that. At the end of the day, I think there are multiple theories out there on how the universe was created and I think this is a country where people should have the opportunity to teach them all, he said, adding that he thinks parents should be able to teach both creationism and evolution.

Whether the Earth was created in 7 days, or 7 actual eras, Im not sure well ever be able to answer that, he said. Its one of the great mysteries.

Watch the GOP slowly drift into irrelevance...
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Offline theseoafs

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Re: Election lost; back to business as usual
« Reply #1 on: November 19, 2012, 02:33:05 PM »
Quote
7 actual eras

 :lol

BTW, when I read the thread title, I thought you were going to post this link.

Offline Scheavo

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Re: Election lost; back to business as usual
« Reply #2 on: November 19, 2012, 02:35:16 PM »
The GOP will still be around, it might just be a GOP with completely new leaders and representation.

It'd be great to be alive during one of the actual downfalls a major American political party. That has not happened often enough.

Offline Perpetual Change

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Re: Election lost; back to business as usual
« Reply #3 on: November 19, 2012, 02:42:52 PM »
Funny, but not really surprising, considering "higher education" in the United States centers around exposing everyone to the idea that there are different (but equally valid) opinions about everything.

Offline rumborak

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Re: Election lost; back to business as usual
« Reply #4 on: November 19, 2012, 02:50:31 PM »
Yeah, society seems to have drifted towards "truth isn't established, it is chosen amongst options".

I think it's just interesting that Rubio simply continues to appease the shrinking hardcore base. I mean, saying this stuff publicly will already cost him moderate support if he decides to run in 2016. The Democrats will dig this stuff up and easily paint him as an ideologue out of touch with reality. An image the GOP should be keen to shed.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2012, 02:55:52 PM by rumborak »
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Online Adami

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Re: Election lost; back to business as usual
« Reply #5 on: November 19, 2012, 02:53:08 PM »
Yeah, society seems to have drifted towards "truth isn't established, it is chosen amongst options".

That's what you get for not believing in objective truth.
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Offline Perpetual Change

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Re: Election lost; back to business as usual
« Reply #6 on: November 19, 2012, 03:01:07 PM »
Kinda weird how the subjective vs. objective debate is playing along with the religion vs. science thing.

It seems like before it was usually the religious institutions and the traditionalists who were asserting that there were "objective" truths and morals (obviously, their own), and the science guys were pointing out that there were also different, valid points of view.

Fast forward, and it's almost the opposite now. The science guys are claiming objectivity, and the religious guys are drawing more from subjective experience than ever, I guess in some attempt to invalidate scientific findings.

But I didn't even mean that. Just look how the media let both candidates completely ignore facts without any editorial input. I know there's bound to be some disagreement about things, but facts are facts, and it's amazing how the media lets so much go unchecked.

Offline rumborak

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Re: Election lost; back to business as usual
« Reply #7 on: November 19, 2012, 03:05:30 PM »
I agree. The election debates were the prime example. I mean, how many people stuck around to watch the "fact checking" afterwards? Barely any I would think.
What we would need in those things is a neutral panel that commentates in real time, alongside the actual debate. Or, alternatively, an adverserial moderator. There was a little bit of that in the debates, but there needs to be a lot more.
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Offline Scheavo

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Re: Election lost; back to business as usual
« Reply #8 on: November 19, 2012, 03:17:30 PM »
Yeah, society seems to have drifted towards "truth isn't established, it is chosen amongst options".

That's what you get for not believing in objective truth.

The truth is that there is no truth. And I don't know how that makes sense to me.

Online lordxizor

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Re: Election lost; back to business as usual
« Reply #9 on: November 19, 2012, 06:29:59 PM »
When I first read Rubio's comments my thought was "well... at least he's acknowledging that the Earth could be more than a few thousand years old. That's actually progress for the GOP."

Offline kirksnosehair

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Re: Election lost; back to business as usual
« Reply #10 on: November 20, 2012, 08:58:14 AM »
The Republican party is not going anywhere anytime soon.  Let's not forget that they still hold a significant majority in the House and are able to obstruct to their heart's content in the Senate.  In this election almost 120 million votes were cast and Obama won by a little over 2 million votes.  Not exactly a landslide in terms of popular vote.  Yeah, sure, it was a little lopsided in the Electoral College, but in most of the battleground states the percentages were not that lopsided at all.  I would caution my liberal friends against hubris at this point in time.


Remember the 2006 mid-term elections?  I do.   If you listened to some of the liberals on TV back then, the Republican party was done.  They were goners, after all, the Democrats had won a majority of Governorships in the states, and for the first time in history, no Republican captured any House, Senate or Gubernatorial seat previously occupied by a Democrat.  Not only that, but the Democrats took a 232-202 advantage in the House of Representatives AND achieved a 49-49 tie in the Senate.  (even though Darth Cheney could, and often did, cast tie-breaking votes in favor of Republicans)


All in all, though, we got pretty cocky as a party back then.   And yeah, sure, two years later, in 2008 we elected Obama, a Democrat - a black Democrat to boot, to the White House, and we also expanded our control of both chambers.  Surely, the Republicans were going the way of the Dodo bird, right?


Wrong 


We got dope-slapped in 2010.


There's an old saying:  He who forgets the past is doomed to relive it.








Offline theseoafs

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Re: Election lost; back to business as usual
« Reply #11 on: November 20, 2012, 09:38:48 AM »
In this election almost 120 million votes were cast and Obama won by a little over 2 million votes. 

A little under 4 million, in fact, for what it's worth.  Though I agree that this election was not a great win for the democratic party, and does not in any way indicate the Republican party is going to die/fracture/what have you.

Offline Scheavo

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Re: Election lost; back to business as usual
« Reply #12 on: November 20, 2012, 09:48:52 AM »
When you look at the demographics of the Republican party, that's when you realize that something has to change about their positions. The Republican base is basically old white people, mostly old white males. And they have a tendency to die with time. At the same time, the Democratic base are minorities, and young people, which are a demographic which is only growing.

So they have to change, or they'll be replaced by something more representative of the population as a whole.

Offline rumborak

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Re: Election lost; back to business as usual
« Reply #13 on: November 20, 2012, 10:02:35 AM »
I will certainly contend that they will exert their influence for quite some more time in the House, since they have an iron grip on their constituents in the South. But presidential elections will become harder and harder without a shift. Right now they're trying to put a band-aid on things ("let's push Rubio, he's a Latino!") but in the long run they need to move forward.
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Offline kirksnosehair

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Re: Election lost; back to business as usual
« Reply #14 on: November 20, 2012, 11:38:33 AM »
In this election almost 120 million votes were cast and Obama won by a little over 2 million votes. 

A little under 4 million, in fact, for what it's worth.  Though I agree that this election was not a great win for the democratic party, and does not in any way indicate the Republican party is going to die/fracture/what have you.


Right, well, what it's worth is a statistically insignificant difference, the larger point being the Republicans will be around for decades to come.  Assuming they are marginalized because they've lost an election by what amounts to a 2% or 3% margin is asking for trouble.

Offline ReaPsTA

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Re: Election lost; back to business as usual
« Reply #15 on: November 21, 2012, 09:47:36 AM »
https://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2012/11/19/rubio-breaks-it-down-pitbull-is-no-eminem/

Quote
Asked how old the Earth is, Rubio said such an answer was not his to give.

Im not a scientist. I dont think Im qualified to answer a question like that. At the end of the day, I think there are multiple theories out there on how the universe was created and I think this is a country where people should have the opportunity to teach them all, he said, adding that he thinks parents should be able to teach both creationism and evolution.

Whether the Earth was created in 7 days, or 7 actual eras, Im not sure well ever be able to answer that, he said. Its one of the great mysteries.

Watch the GOP slowly drift into irrelevance...

In fairness, it's the right answer to give.  Does it appease the creationist wing of the party?  Yes.  But (a) there are many creationist Democrats and (b) you can't openly antagonist the people who will vote for you in the primaries.

The answer is not anti-science in any way, which is crucial to understand.  It doesn't bind him to make policy decisions based on young Earth creationism.  It is not insulting of or dismissive toward science in any way.  I guess you could consider acknowledging creationism at all to be an insult, but I would probably say that a thicker skin is necessary.
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Offline rumborak

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Re: Election lost; back to business as usual
« Reply #16 on: November 21, 2012, 09:57:44 AM »
Maybe I need a thicker skin, but somewhere there's still that hope that elected leaders sometimes actually lead, not just to tell people what they want to hear.
Rubio's statement was an explicitly implicit "science doens't know anything; you are perfectly fine thinking the Earth is 6,000 years old". And that is plain irresponsible to do in the 21st century.
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Offline ReaPsTA

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Re: Election lost; back to business as usual
« Reply #17 on: November 21, 2012, 01:02:22 PM »
Maybe I need a thicker skin, but somewhere there's still that hope that elected leaders sometimes actually lead, not just to tell people what they want to hear.

When it comes to social conservatism and the Republican party, it's impossible.  You don't need to be openly creationist, but you cannot antagonist them or they will not vote for you.  Do I find that horrifying?  Yes.  Is it reality?  Yes.
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Offline Super Dude

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Re: Election lost; back to business as usual
« Reply #18 on: November 22, 2012, 05:34:32 AM »
I agree. The election debates were the prime example. I mean, how many people stuck around to watch the "fact checking" afterwards? Barely any I would think.
What we would need in those things is a neutral panel that commentates in real time, alongside the actual debate. Or, alternatively, an adverserial moderator. There was a little bit of that in the debates, but there needs to be a lot more.

Yeah, and when we had that in the second debate, FOX made a real stink about it.
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Offline Scheavo

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Re: Election lost; back to business as usual
« Reply #19 on: November 22, 2012, 09:09:33 AM »
Maybe I need a thicker skin, but somewhere there's still that hope that elected leaders sometimes actually lead, not just to tell people what they want to hear.

When it comes to social conservatism and the Republican party, it's impossible.  You don't need to be openly creationist, but you cannot antagonist them or they will not vote for you.  Do I find that horrifying?  Yes.  Is it reality?  Yes.

I find it sad that, in American politics, it's all about pandering to some base you're supposed to have, and that straying from this base usually costs you the possibility of winning an election, because you won't get past the primaries, where the mainstream get's misrepresented. I actually think some libertarian policies are majority popular in this country (reduction in military spending, war on drugs), but that the people who want these policies are split for other reasons with several parties or don't vote entirely. They definitely don't influence the caucuses and primaries.


Offline antigoon

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Re: Election lost; back to business as usual
« Reply #20 on: November 22, 2012, 09:53:03 AM »
I feel like that only applies to Republicans.

Offline rumborak

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Re: Election lost; back to business as usual
« Reply #21 on: November 22, 2012, 10:01:55 AM »
Definitely the primaries thing is mostly a Republican problem. If you look at Obama vs. Hillary in the primaries, Obama was far more moderate than Hillary.
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Offline Scheavo

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Re: Election lost; back to business as usual
« Reply #22 on: November 22, 2012, 12:37:19 PM »
But Democrats still have to play to their base, and if they don't, they won't win the primaries. Even if they came out in support of something with something like 60% approval by the general population.

Offline antigoon

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Re: Election lost; back to business as usual
« Reply #23 on: November 22, 2012, 04:36:36 PM »
I guess so. It's definitely more pronounced on the Republican side because of how extreme and vocal their base is.

Offline rumborak

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Re: Election lost; back to business as usual
« Reply #24 on: November 22, 2012, 04:46:53 PM »
The question that lingers however is, is this just pandering? Or is Rubio actually so out of step with reality that he thinks one needs to be a scientist to know the age of Earth with certainty? If the former, he's just the usual spineless politician. If the latter, this man must never become president.
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Offline ReaPsTA

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Re: Election lost; back to business as usual
« Reply #25 on: November 22, 2012, 04:56:47 PM »
The question that lingers however is, is this just pandering? Or is Rubio actually so out of step with reality that he thinks one needs to be a scientist to know the age of Earth with certainty? If the former, he's just the usual spineless politician. If the latter, this man must never become president.

Most likely, if he has his way, you will never know that.
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Offline rumborak

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Re: Election lost; back to business as usual
« Reply #26 on: November 22, 2012, 05:19:22 PM »
Rubio, if he decides to run for prez, will however face the same conundrum as Romney: One end of his spectrum asking "Do you actually believe this?", and the other asking "Do you actually believe this?"
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Offline ReaPsTA

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Re: Election lost; back to business as usual
« Reply #27 on: November 22, 2012, 06:04:44 PM »
Rubio, if he decides to run for prez, will however face the same conundrum as Romney: One end of his spectrum asking "Do you actually believe this?", and the other asking "Do you actually believe this?"

Politics is the art of solving that riddle.
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