Author Topic: Abortion debate  (Read 16224 times)

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Offline theseoafs

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Re: Abortion debate
« Reply #70 on: November 15, 2012, 05:29:08 PM »
Then we vote on the issue because we live in America.

Offline Orthogonal

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Re: Abortion debate
« Reply #71 on: November 15, 2012, 05:30:06 PM »
Morality is subjective by definition. Objective morality is an oxymoron.

Objectivity exists solely in the realm of science. Can we move on now?

Offline Ħ

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Re: Abortion debate
« Reply #72 on: November 15, 2012, 05:30:36 PM »
Great. So should a religiously motivated voter vote in line with what his religion dictates, or should he vote with what secular humanism dictates?
"All great works are prepared in the desert, including the redemption of the world. The precursors, the followers, the Master Himself, all obeyed or have to obey one and the same law. Prophets, apostles, preachers, martyrs, pioneers of knowledge, inspired artists in every art, ordinary men and the Man-God, all pay tribute to loneliness, to the life of silence, to the night." - A. G. Sertillanges

Offline Ħ

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Re: Abortion debate
« Reply #73 on: November 15, 2012, 05:31:04 PM »
Morality is subjective by definition. Objective morality is an oxymoron.

Objectivity exists solely in the realm of science. Can we move on now?
Holy crap is that wrong on so many different levels.
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Offline Scheavo

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Re: Abortion debate
« Reply #74 on: November 15, 2012, 05:31:32 PM »
Actually, if you paid close attention, I never actually said objective morality is true. Not in this discussion. All I said is that if objective morality was not true, then there's really no point in arguing either way because no stance on the abortion issue is going to be grounded in true morality. That's all I said.

Morality? No, but it can be based upon facts and what we know to be true. Which is where I have tried to lead this discussion, but which is constantly ignored. To me, you're being rather facetious by constantly bringing up morality, if it's objective, and trying to use that point to argue for some position on abortion, which if it hasn't been your intention, it has certainly been the effect.

Offline Ħ

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Re: Abortion debate
« Reply #75 on: November 15, 2012, 05:33:41 PM »
What should our abortion policy be according to the facts, without invoking morality?
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Offline theseoafs

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Re: Abortion debate
« Reply #76 on: November 15, 2012, 05:35:40 PM »
Great. So should a religiously motivated voter vote in line with what his religion dictates, or should he vote with what secular humanism dictates?

He can vote for either because he's an adult.  I would posit that you shouldn't legislate based on religion -- for instance, while a Christian voter may not think homosexual activity is right or moral, he shouldn't vote to make homosexual activity illegal.  I think non-late-term abortion should be looked at the same way, but a lot of people disagree.

Offline Ħ

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Re: Abortion debate
« Reply #77 on: November 15, 2012, 05:36:29 PM »
Great. So should a religiously motivated voter vote in line with what his religion dictates, or should he vote with what secular humanism dictates?

He can vote for either because he's an adult.  I would posit that you shouldn't legislate based on religion -- for instance, while a Christian voter may not think homosexual activity is right or moral, he shouldn't vote to make homosexual activity illegal.  I think non-late-term abortion should be looked at the same way, but a lot of people disagree.
Why would you posit that?
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Offline theseoafs

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Re: Abortion debate
« Reply #78 on: November 15, 2012, 05:38:48 PM »
Because we do not live in a theocracy, and I don't think it's right to vote to make people do or abstain from doing certain things if the only reason is religious.  A lot of people disagree with me and I'm fine with that, as the only thing I can do is argue my position rationally.

Offline Jaffa

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Re: Abortion debate
« Reply #79 on: November 15, 2012, 05:41:38 PM »
What should our abortion policy be according to the facts, without invoking morality?

I didn't say you couldn't invoke morality.  I said try not to invoke objective morality.  You seem to be so caught up on pointing out subjectivity that you fail to actually address arguments.

If someone says abortion should be legal up until the fetus is sentient, you say that is an arbitrary line based on a subjective definition of life.  Instead, I suggest you explain why you rationally disagree with that 'arbitrary line'.  It seems to me that conception is every bit as arbitrary, so what makes your arbitrary line any better than rumborak's four month rule?


I want to state for the record that I don't have an opinion on abortion.  Or, at least, I don't know what my opinion on it is.  I am following this thread (and was following ths discussion in the Republican thread) not to express my own viewpoint but to see other people's viewpoints and learn from them.  So I'm honestly not biased one way or the other here, I'm just trying to help steer the conversation in a productive direction.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2012, 05:51:15 PM by Jaffa »
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Offline Perpetual Change

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Re: Abortion debate
« Reply #80 on: November 15, 2012, 05:42:35 PM »
No offense, Brother. But you're getting exactly what you asked for with how you framed the discussion in this thread. It's not even about abortion anymore. It's about subjective vs. objective morals. Oh well...

I maintain that sentience (which, by the way, IS scientifically quantifiable) is the only decent way we've got at determining our ethical responsibility toward a life form. There is literally no other meaningful way to even discuss this question where we have any chance of reaching consensus.

But, that's the problem. Extreme pro-lifers and the opposing extreme pro-choices don't want consensus. They want all or nothing, and the discussion never ends, or gets anywhere productive...

Offline Adami

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Re: Abortion debate
« Reply #81 on: November 15, 2012, 05:51:50 PM »
Yes the limit to abortion is somewhat arbitrary. So is the age of consent, the age to drink, the age to drive etc. so what?
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Offline Scheavo

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Re: Abortion debate
« Reply #82 on: November 15, 2012, 07:03:09 PM »
What should our abortion policy be according to the facts, without invoking morality?

That ~15% of pregnancies end in unwanted miscarriages. That making abortion illegal wouldn't make abortions go away, just make them more dangerous. That defining a zygote as human life would involve an insane amount of interest in the on goings of a woman's womb by the government. That the real way to lower the number of abortions, and thereby achieve the goal of reducing unborn childs being "murdered," is achieved not by making abortion illegal, but by changing social policies to reduce pregnancies and increase the number of adoptions.

I had a longer post about it in the Republican party thread, but basically, the actual effects of legislation and law. Everything I listed above is demonstrably true, and independent of morality and the discussion regarding it.

Offline Super Dude

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Re: Abortion debate
« Reply #83 on: November 15, 2012, 07:35:33 PM »
Honestly, womangs should be duking it out over this, not us.
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Offline Adami

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Re: Abortion debate
« Reply #84 on: November 15, 2012, 07:46:40 PM »
To alter a joke more commonly about death.....



....is abortion is so bad, then why do none of the aborted fetus's complain about it?






Sorry, would you rather we just kept going back and forth about subjective vs. objective?
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Offline chknptpie

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Re: Abortion debate
« Reply #85 on: November 15, 2012, 07:59:55 PM »

But, that's the problem. Extreme pro-lifers and the opposing extreme pro-choices don't want consensus. They want all or nothing, and the discussion never ends, or gets anywhere productive...

I'm not sure I believe this. I think most "pro-choicers", at least all of the ones I know, are relatively comfortable with the current roe v wade. It seems like there is more pressure to restrict abortions than there is to blow it wide open.

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Re: Abortion debate
« Reply #86 on: November 16, 2012, 11:42:24 AM »

But, that's the problem. Extreme pro-lifers and the opposing extreme pro-choices don't want consensus. They want all or nothing, and the discussion never ends, or gets anywhere productive...

I'm not sure I believe this. I think most "pro-choicers", at least all of the ones I know, are relatively comfortable with the current roe v wade. It seems like there is more pressure to restrict abortions than there is to blow it wide open.


The "abortion debate" is an exercise in futility and extremely counterproductive, generally speaking.  It really doesn't accomplish much more than getting folks on both sides wound up in to emotional knots.



The thing is, nobody likes abortion or thinks it's a good thing to do, but everyone understands that regardless of the law, abortion will happen.  I'm afraid that's an unmitigated fact that cannot be refuted.  Abortion will happen, regardless of what laws are put in place to prevent it from happening.   Making it illegal won't prevent it from happening, it will simply render it an unsafe, unregulated procedure that will result in more pain, sickness and death.  (see: history)


The solution, I think, is for BOTH sides of the "abortion debate" to find common ground on what action(s) we can ALL take to reduce the frequency of abortion as much as is realistically possible.   




Offline chknptpie

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Re: Abortion debate
« Reply #87 on: November 16, 2012, 11:48:07 AM »
I guess my statement was more focused on PC's statement "all or nothing". I don't think the majority of pro-choice supporters want "all". I do, however, think there is a majority of pro-lifer supporters who want "all". I agree that this debate will probably always go on forever. There is no solution to meet everyone's opinions/beliefs.

Offline Ben_Jamin

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Re: Abortion debate
« Reply #88 on: November 16, 2012, 02:00:31 PM »
Before a woman gets an abortion they should have those questioners that ask "You are about to have an abortion, are you sure you want to continue?" "Have you considered Adoption?" Things like that to make sure the life is not lost, but is still guaranteed a life. If they decide to have it, then let them, but they might be punished by the feeling of guilt later on in life. Also, if someone had an Abortion and then gets pregnant again, I'd tell them "Since your unresponsible, your having this baby and it's gonna be adopted." You can't have people taking advantage of these things.

 I understand the rape issue as a sad tragedy, especially when the victim becomes pregnant. But as rape is still intercourse, albeit unwanted, its still how you conceive, the devils way of conceiving. Also, what if she gets drunk and gets pregnant, is too ashamed to admit it and declares rape when it was all up to her? Those situations I believe are left up to the most high to sort out, either in life or death.
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Offline Adami

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Re: Abortion debate
« Reply #89 on: November 16, 2012, 02:07:45 PM »
Before a woman gets an abortion they should have those questioners that ask "You are about to have an abortion, are you sure you want to continue?" "Have you considered Adoption?" Things like that to make sure the life is not lost, but is still guaranteed a life. If they decide to have it, then let them, but they might be punished by the feeling of guilt later on in life. Also, if someone had an Abortion and then gets pregnant again, I'd tell them "Since your unresponsible, your having this baby and it's gonna be adopted." You can't have people taking advantage of these things.

 I understand the rape issue as a sad tragedy, especially when the victim becomes pregnant. But as rape is still intercourse, albeit unwanted, its still how you conceive, the devils way of conceiving. Also, what if she gets drunk and gets pregnant, is too ashamed to admit it and declares rape when it was all up to her? Those situations I believe are left up to the most high to sort out, either in life or death.

Huh? You think if a 14 year old rape victim has an abortion, then she should never have the opportunity to have children again? That is just completely insane.

Also, have you ever known a woman who had an abortion? I've known quite a few. Let me tell you, it sticks with them. They might not talk about it a whole lot, but it scars them for life. Believe me, all the guilt you seem to want them to feel, they usually feel.

And I think it's best if we keep terms like "Devils way of conceiving" outside of any legislation regarding abortion.
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Offline Scheavo

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Re: Abortion debate
« Reply #90 on: November 16, 2012, 02:24:38 PM »
I think he was saying if you have one abortion, you can't have another abortion, not you can't have a child.

But that would just mean the woman goes and intentionally miscarries, or has an illegal abortion, and we're back to the same problem of making it illegal.

The solution, I think, is for BOTH sides of the "abortion debate" to find common ground on what action(s) we can ALL take to reduce the frequency of abortion as much as is realistically possible.   

Good luck with that. Obama said the same thing in 2008, and no one gave a fuck. Pro-lifers seem determined to have an ideological debate, and pro-choicer's often do the same.

Offline Adami

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Re: Abortion debate
« Reply #91 on: November 16, 2012, 02:25:27 PM »
I think he was saying if you have one abortion, you can't have another abortion, not you can't have a child.

But that would just mean the woman goes and intentionally miscarries, or has an illegal abortion, and we're back to the same problem of making it illegal.



He said they have to have the kid and give it up for adoption. Meaning they won't be allowed to keep the child.
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Offline antigoon

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Re: Abortion debate
« Reply #92 on: November 16, 2012, 02:30:23 PM »
Before a woman gets an abortion they should have those questioners that ask "You are about to have an abortion, are you sure you want to continue?" "Have you considered Adoption?" Things like that to make sure the life is not lost, but is still guaranteed a life.

At least some states have something like that. Constitutionally, states may restrict abortions of nonviable fetuses as long as the restrictions do not impose an undue burden on the woman seeking the abortion.

Quote
Also, if someone had an Abortion and then gets pregnant again, I'd tell them "Since your unresponsible, your having this baby and it's gonna be adopted." You can't have people taking advantage of these things.

This, I think, no matter the circumstance, is quite outlandish.

Offline theseoafs

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Re: Abortion debate
« Reply #93 on: November 16, 2012, 02:31:36 PM »
Before a woman gets an abortion they should have those questioners that ask "You are about to have an abortion, are you sure you want to continue?" "Have you considered Adoption?" Things like that to make sure the life is not lost, but is still guaranteed a life. If they decide to have it, then let them, but they might be punished by the feeling of guilt later on in life.

The choice to get an abortion is complicated enough without "questioners" probing women with loaded questions.

Also, what if she gets drunk and gets pregnant, is too ashamed to admit it and declares rape when it was all up to her?

For what it's worth, this would indeed be a rape.  If you are drunk, you can't consent.

Quote
Also, if someone had an Abortion and then gets pregnant again, I'd tell them "Since your unresponsible, your having this baby and it's gonna be adopted." You can't have people taking advantage of these things.

This, I think, no matter the circumstance, is quite outlandish.


Yep.

Offline antigoon

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Re: Abortion debate
« Reply #94 on: November 16, 2012, 02:36:18 PM »
Before a woman gets an abortion they should have those questioners that ask "You are about to have an abortion, are you sure you want to continue?" "Have you considered Adoption?" Things like that to make sure the life is not lost, but is still guaranteed a life. If they decide to have it, then let them, but they might be punished by the feeling of guilt later on in life.

The choice to get an abortion is complicated enough without "questioners" probing women with loaded questions.


The state can do more than just ask you questions like that. Like make you wait 24 hours before actually getting the abortion. And require parental consent.

Offline Adami

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Re: Abortion debate
« Reply #95 on: November 16, 2012, 02:41:53 PM »
I'm curious why so many pro-life people seem to have this odd view of adoption. It seems the common belief is that if you put your child up for adoption, then it will be quickly adopted by a loving family.

Most children adopted are under the age of 1 year, meaning that the older you get in foster care, the less likely you are to ever get adopted. Nowadays most adopted children are also NOT from the united states.

Beyond that, the lives these kids go through once put up for adoption can often times be pure hell.

Adoption isn't some brilliant save all solution to everything child related. Plus, the more kids put up for adoption, the more kids who will never be adopted and end up on the streets.
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Offline antigoon

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Re: Abortion debate
« Reply #96 on: November 16, 2012, 02:52:14 PM »
I'm curious why so many pro-life people seem to have this odd view of adoption. It seems the common belief is that if you put your child up for adoption, then it will be quickly adopted by a loving family.

Most children adopted are under the age of 1 year, meaning that the older you get in foster care, the less likely you are to ever get adopted. Nowadays most adopted children are also NOT from the united states.

Beyond that, the lives these kids go through once put up for adoption can often times be pure hell.

Adoption isn't some brilliant save all solution to everything child related. Plus, the more kids put up for adoption, the more kids who will never be adopted and end up on the streets.
This is a great point. Unwanted pregnancies are the root problem here. Obviously we can't completely eliminate them but I think through proper education, i.e., not abstinence based, the problem can at least be mitigated.

Offline Scheavo

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Re: Abortion debate
« Reply #97 on: November 16, 2012, 03:08:13 PM »
I think he was saying if you have one abortion, you can't have another abortion, not you can't have a child.

But that would just mean the woman goes and intentionally miscarries, or has an illegal abortion, and we're back to the same problem of making it illegal.



He said they have to have the kid and give it up for adoption. Meaning they won't be allowed to keep the child.

If they want to get an abortion. That was the context of the post, and of what he was saying. This is a very unfavorable interpretation of what he said, and the more favorable one should be assumed.

Not that I agree with him. I'm just saying your interpretation is unfair.

Offline Adami

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Re: Abortion debate
« Reply #98 on: November 16, 2012, 03:09:30 PM »
I might indeed be wrong. But when I read things like making sure we guilt the women as much as we can, or that rape is just the devil's form of conception.....I don't think my interpretation of what he said is really that unfair.


But I have no problem being wrong.
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Offline Ħ

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Re: Abortion debate
« Reply #99 on: November 16, 2012, 03:20:21 PM »
I like what Ben_Jamin and antigoon had to say. An abortion is a very serious medical procedure (no matter your view on human life) and the process to get an abortion should be arduous. Does anyone disagree with that?

Also, I had a thought for how we can define human existence using secular reasoning. Each of us should ask ourselves the introspective question, "When did I begin to exist?" The answer to that question should be a good place to draw the line. Right?
"All great works are prepared in the desert, including the redemption of the world. The precursors, the followers, the Master Himself, all obeyed or have to obey one and the same law. Prophets, apostles, preachers, martyrs, pioneers of knowledge, inspired artists in every art, ordinary men and the Man-God, all pay tribute to loneliness, to the life of silence, to the night." - A. G. Sertillanges

Offline eric42434224

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Re: Abortion debate
« Reply #100 on: November 16, 2012, 03:25:17 PM »
I like what Ben_Jamin and antigoon had to say. An abortion is a very serious medical procedure (no matter your view on human life) and the process to get an abortion should be arduous. Does anyone disagree with that?

Also, I had a thought for how we can define human existence using secular reasoning. Each of us should ask ourselves the introspective question, "When did I begin to exist?" The answer to that question should be a good place to draw the line. Right?

Yes I disagree.  While I think the person should evaluate the risks and consequenses of the procedure, and think very seriously about the gravity of the decision emotionally, I do not think getting the procedure should be overly difficult.  To make a complicated medical procedure very difficult to get will only increase the chances of it being done in circumstances that are unsafe.

To your second point, no.  That would be completely arbitrary, and it would be impossible to come to any consensus.  Also, simply existing is hardly a reason to be treated any different than a pencil.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2012, 03:33:31 PM by eric42434224 »
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Offline theseoafs

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Re: Abortion debate
« Reply #101 on: November 16, 2012, 03:29:42 PM »
I like what Ben_Jamin and antigoon had to say. An abortion is a very serious medical procedure (no matter your view on human life) and the process to get an abortion should be arduous. Does anyone disagree with that?

Hell no.  Getting an abortion is NOT easy.  The "process" is arduous just because it's an abortion; there's no reason for the state to put up arbitrary barriers between a woman and the things to which she has a right (assuming early-term abortions are indeed a woman's right, naturally).

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Re: Abortion debate
« Reply #102 on: November 16, 2012, 03:31:56 PM »
I like what Ben_Jamin and antigoon had to say. An abortion is a very serious medical procedure (no matter your view on human life) and the process to get an abortion should be arduous. Does anyone disagree with that?

Also, I had a thought for how we can define human existence using secular reasoning. Each of us should ask ourselves the introspective question, "When did I begin to exist?" The answer to that question should be a good place to draw the line. Right?

Yes I disagree.  While I think the person should evaluate the risks and consequenses of the procedure, and think very seriously about the gravity of the decision emotionally, I do not think getting the procedure should be overly difficult.  To make a complicated medical procedure very difficult to get will only increase the chances of it being done in circumstances that are unsafe.
I don't mean insanely difficult, like US immigration. But don't you think women seeking abortion should be required to travel through several steps - giving that person time to evaluate the consequences of their decision? I'm mostly speaking against walk-in clinics. As of now, I think it's up to the states - some states have walk-in procedures, some have longer application procedures. I'm just asking about the principle of allowing walk-ins.

Quote
To your second point, no.  That would be completely arbitrary, and it would be impossible to come to any consensus.
:lol Okay, but seriously, what do you think?
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Offline antigoon

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Re: Abortion debate
« Reply #103 on: November 16, 2012, 03:34:12 PM »
I like what Ben_Jamin and antigoon had to say. An abortion is a very serious medical procedure (no matter your view on human life) and the process to get an abortion should be arduous. Does anyone disagree with that?

Yes, because an arduous process, whatever that might be, would probably not pass the Supreme Court's undue burden test. I'm not saying I agree or disagree with the policy, but having a woman fill out a questionnaire is not arduous. 

Offline Ħ

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Re: Abortion debate
« Reply #104 on: November 16, 2012, 03:35:16 PM »
I like what Ben_Jamin and antigoon had to say. An abortion is a very serious medical procedure (no matter your view on human life) and the process to get an abortion should be arduous. Does anyone disagree with that?

Hell no.  Getting an abortion is NOT easy.  The "process" is arduous just because it's an abortion; there's no reason for the state to put up arbitrary barriers between a woman and the things to which she has a right (assuming early-term abortions are indeed a woman's right, naturally).
As an analogy, compare it to having to obtain a gun license (which takes a week or so). It's not impossible, but it takes several steps. Naturally, we don't want people to just abuse their right to get an abortion, so speed bumps are a good thing. It's not comparable to policies like immigrating to the US, or the literacy tests of the post-Civil War period.
"All great works are prepared in the desert, including the redemption of the world. The precursors, the followers, the Master Himself, all obeyed or have to obey one and the same law. Prophets, apostles, preachers, martyrs, pioneers of knowledge, inspired artists in every art, ordinary men and the Man-God, all pay tribute to loneliness, to the life of silence, to the night." - A. G. Sertillanges