Author Topic: Abortion debate  (Read 18869 times)

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Offline Adami

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Re: Abortion debate
« Reply #105 on: November 16, 2012, 03:39:42 PM »
Why do I get the feeling that some of you guys view the women who have these abortions as 17 year old teeny boppers who go home and tweet "lol just had an abortion, probably gonna have unprotected sex with my BF tonight LOZ! k l8z"?

Having an abortion for most women is already an immensely arduous task.
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Offline eric42434224

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Re: Abortion debate
« Reply #106 on: November 16, 2012, 03:42:23 PM »
I think that speaking to a counselor and having a cool down period before a serious medical procedure like an abortion/sex change/un-needed cosmetic surgery/etc. is a good idea. 
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Offline Ryzee

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Re: Abortion debate
« Reply #107 on: November 16, 2012, 03:44:41 PM »
Why do I get the feeling that some of you guys view the women who have these abortions as 17 year old teeny boppers who go home and tweet "lol just had an abortion, probably gonna have unprotected sex with my BF tonight LOZ! k l8z"?

Having an abortion for most women is already an immensely arduous task.

This.


I can't help but think that all of these chicks who use abortion as their birth control like it's no biggie exist in the same conservative fantasy land as all those welfare recipients who spend the money that hard working folks earn for them on drugs, rims and crab legs.  Oh and xboxes.

Offline theseoafs

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Re: Abortion debate
« Reply #108 on: November 16, 2012, 03:48:15 PM »
As an analogy, compare it to having to obtain a gun license. It's not impossible, but it takes several steps. Naturally, we don't want people to just abuse their right to get an abortion, so speed bumps are a good thing. It's not comparable to policies like immigrating to the US, or the literacy tests of the post-Civil War period.

I think you're creating a conflict that doesn't actually exist.  Nobody is "abusing their right", whatever that means, to an abortion, precisely because it's not an easy procedure even if you're not being bugged by the state about adoption.  It's very invasive, and can make you very ill if you go one of the non-invasive routes (abortion pill, etc.).  Beyond that, you'll have to come to terms with your own ethics, morality, religion, etc., as well as with the social stigma surrounding the event (made all the worse by the fact that there will probably be anti-abortion protesters outside the Planned Parenthood, or what have you).

Nobody is having "too many abortions".  The easy, walk-in and walk-out teenage abortion is fiction.

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Offline Ħ

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Re: Abortion debate
« Reply #109 on: November 16, 2012, 03:48:39 PM »
It's true in many cases.

Check it out: https://www.prochoice.org/about_abortion/facts/women_who.html

"Calculating abortion rates, older teenagers and young adults have the highest abortion rates"
 
and

"half of all women getting abortions report that contraception was used during the month they became pregnant"

meaning half of the people getting abortions don't use birth control. Abortion rates are obviously linked to unprotected sex rates.
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Offline Ħ

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Re: Abortion debate
« Reply #110 on: November 16, 2012, 03:51:13 PM »
I think that speaking to a counselor and having a cool down period before a serious medical procedure like an abortion/sex change/un-needed cosmetic surgery/etc. is a good idea. 
Should it be a requirement?
"All great works are prepared in the desert, including the redemption of the world. The precursors, the followers, the Master Himself, all obeyed or have to obey one and the same law. Prophets, apostles, preachers, martyrs, pioneers of knowledge, inspired artists in every art, ordinary men and the Man-God, all pay tribute to loneliness, to the life of silence, to the night." - A. G. Sertillanges

Offline eric42434224

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Re: Abortion debate
« Reply #111 on: November 16, 2012, 03:53:57 PM »
It's true in many cases.

Check it out: https://www.prochoice.org/about_abortion/facts/women_who.html

"Calculating abortion rates, older teenagers and young adults have the highest abortion rates"
 
and

"half of all women getting abortions report that contraception was used during the month they became pregnant"

meaning half of the people getting abortions don't use birth control. Abortion rates are obviously linked to unprotected sex rates.

So?  What are you trying to say?

Older teenagers and young adults have the most abortions...hmmmm....maybe because middle aged women and blue hairs arent giving up the biscuit too much?

And it seems painfully obvious that women getting abortions arent using birth control.  I mean, is that really a revelation?

What is your point? 
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Offline eric42434224

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Re: Abortion debate
« Reply #112 on: November 16, 2012, 03:56:19 PM »
I think that speaking to a counselor and having a cool down period before a serious medical procedure like an abortion/sex change/un-needed cosmetic surgery/etc. is a good idea. 
Should it be a requirement?

I think it is a good idea.  Not sure if it should be a requirement.
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Re: Abortion debate
« Reply #113 on: November 16, 2012, 03:56:39 PM »
The point is that abortion is linked to unprotected sex and young people, which counters Adami's post at the top of this page. The "conservative fantasy" of young girls (teens up to early twenties) getting an abortion because - oops! - they got pregnant during unprotected sex when Johnny didn't wear a condom is pretty well-founded.
"All great works are prepared in the desert, including the redemption of the world. The precursors, the followers, the Master Himself, all obeyed or have to obey one and the same law. Prophets, apostles, preachers, martyrs, pioneers of knowledge, inspired artists in every art, ordinary men and the Man-God, all pay tribute to loneliness, to the life of silence, to the night." - A. G. Sertillanges

Offline theseoafs

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Re: Abortion debate
« Reply #114 on: November 16, 2012, 03:59:53 PM »
What he (I believe) was objecting to was your characterization that having an abortion if the state doesn't require counseling/questionnaires/therapy is a very easy decision that teens make all the time without thinking anything of it.  Of course the majority of people getting abortions are young women who aren't having protected sex; that's obvious.

Offline eric42434224

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Re: Abortion debate
« Reply #115 on: November 16, 2012, 04:00:56 PM »
The point is that abortion is linked to unprotected sex and young people, which counters Adami's post at the top of this page. The "conservative fantasy" of young girls (teens up to early twenties) getting an abortion because - oops! - they got pregnant during unprotected sex when Johnny didn't wear a condom is pretty well-founded.

Yeah, you pretty much missed his point.  It is not the age or demographic....it is that abortions are taken so fucking serious by anyone who has one.  His point was that they arent being used in a flippant manner. 

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Offline Adami

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Re: Abortion debate
« Reply #116 on: November 16, 2012, 04:08:30 PM »
Thank you Eric for clearing up my point.


Yes, I was pointing out that the whole "women just use abortions as birth control" isn't as real a problem as some people think it is. Abortions can destroy a woman emotionally.
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Offline Ben_Jamin

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Re: Abortion debate
« Reply #117 on: November 17, 2012, 12:44:56 AM »
I like what Ben_Jamin and antigoon had to say. An abortion is a very serious medical procedure (no matter your view on human life) and the process to get an abortion should be arduous. Does anyone disagree with that?

Also, I had a thought for how we can define human existence using secular reasoning. Each of us should ask ourselves the introspective question, "When did I begin to exist?" The answer to that question should be a good place to draw the line. Right?

I see your point. And kinda agree. It's the same as denying a life. Why would one deny a life when your life could've been dealt the same.
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Offline slycordinator

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Re: Abortion debate
« Reply #118 on: November 17, 2012, 01:39:59 AM »
Also, what if she gets drunk and gets pregnant, is too ashamed to admit it and declares rape when it was all up to her?

For what it's worth, this would indeed be a rape.  If you are drunk, you can't consent.
The assumption here is that if a woman has sex while she's drunk, the man inherently was taking advantage of her. What if he was drunk, too? Is it mutual rape then since he couldn't consent either? It's also possible for the girl to be too ashamed to admit that she had sex with a certain guy; like lets say she wanted sex, got drunk, then later realized she wouldn't have consented to the ugly dude she chose if she'd been less drunk.

Offline theseoafs

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Re: Abortion debate
« Reply #119 on: November 17, 2012, 10:16:17 AM »
The assumption here is that if a woman has sex while she's drunk, the man inherently was taking advantage of her. What if he was drunk, too? Is it mutual rape then since he couldn't consent either? It's also possible for the girl to be too ashamed to admit that she had sex with a certain guy; like lets say she wanted sex, got drunk, then later realized she wouldn't have consented to the ugly dude she chose if she'd been less drunk.

What on Earth is the point you're trying to make?

Offline chknptpie

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Re: Abortion debate
« Reply #120 on: November 17, 2012, 10:45:05 AM »
I wish a woman who has had an abortion could come in here and talk about how hard of a decision and process it is. I think hearing directly from a source could be very educational.

Offline yeshaberto

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Re: Abortion debate
« Reply #121 on: November 17, 2012, 11:50:00 AM »
my wife had two while she was a teenager, and almost 30 years removed she still is scarred.  she has healed quite a bit in that time, but it still causes a limp in her walk.  she has said in TV interviews about it that she wishes they had provided more counsel to her before she made the decision.  instead, at that time, she describes it as a "rush in and get it done before you have time to change your mind."

Offline slycordinator

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Re: Abortion debate
« Reply #122 on: November 17, 2012, 02:35:43 PM »
The assumption here is that if a woman has sex while she's drunk, the man inherently was taking advantage of her. What if he was drunk, too? Is it mutual rape then since he couldn't consent either? It's also possible for the girl to be too ashamed to admit that she had sex with a certain guy; like lets say she wanted sex, got drunk, then later realized she wouldn't have consented to the ugly dude she chose if she'd been less drunk.

What on Earth is the point you're trying to make?
That the claim of "girl had sex while drunk == she couldn't consent == rape" is invalid. The things I brought up are counterexamples.

Consider these points:
1) Rape, by definition, requires force and/or duress. Her being drunk doesn't, in and of itself, create duress/force.
2) If it is accepted that being unable to consent due to drunkenness makes sex with a girl rape, then the same thing is true of having sex with a man.
3) Being regretful of something you did while you were drunk doesn't mean the other person involved was taking advantage of you at the time.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2012, 02:43:00 PM by slycordinator »

Offline theseoafs

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Re: Abortion debate
« Reply #123 on: November 17, 2012, 03:07:43 PM »
Does that have anything to do with abortion?

Offline Ħ

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Re: Abortion debate
« Reply #124 on: November 17, 2012, 03:09:51 PM »
my wife had two while she was a teenager, and almost 30 years removed she still is scarred.  she has healed quite a bit in that time, but it still causes a limp in her walk.  she has said in TV interviews about it that she wishes they had provided more counsel to her before she made the decision.  instead, at that time, she describes it as a "rush in and get it done before you have time to change your mind."
Thanks for sharing, yesh.
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Offline slycordinator

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Re: Abortion debate
« Reply #125 on: November 17, 2012, 03:24:06 PM »
Does that have anything to do with abortion?
I was responding to your statement that a woman who had sex while drunk was, in fact, raped because she couldn't give consent. It's not my fault that you made a statement that itself wasn't about abortion. ;)

Offline Ħ

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Re: Abortion debate
« Reply #126 on: November 17, 2012, 03:27:04 PM »
On that note, should women seeking abortion be required to present a good reason for their decision? It seems to me that failure to use birth control is an unsatisfactory reason.
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Offline slycordinator

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Re: Abortion debate
« Reply #127 on: November 17, 2012, 03:35:22 PM »
1) Refusing them the legal abortion because their reason wasn't one you deem good enough will only lead to them getting an illegal abortion.
2) It's not unheard of for women on birth control to get pregnant.

Offline theseoafs

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Re: Abortion debate
« Reply #128 on: November 17, 2012, 03:36:01 PM »
Does that have anything to do with abortion?
I was responding to your statement that a woman who had sex while drunk was, in fact, raped because she couldn't give consent. It's not my fault that you made a statement that itself wasn't about abortion. ;)

 :lol That's true.  I don't want to veer too far off topic, but legally speaking, if you have sex while you are intoxicated then you were indeed raped.  If your partner was also drunk then it seems to me that the sex was still illegal, strictly speaking, but nobody would ever bring that incident to a court anyway.  "Force" is a requirement for rape only in some jurisdictions.

Offline slycordinator

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Re: Abortion debate
« Reply #129 on: November 17, 2012, 03:50:01 PM »
:lol That's true.  I don't want to veer too far off topic, but legally speaking, if you have sex while you are intoxicated then you were indeed raped.  If your partner was also drunk then it seems to me that the sex was still illegal, strictly speaking, but nobody would ever bring that incident to a court anyway.  "Force" is a requirement for rape only in some jurisdictions.
This is, of course, ignoring that there have been cases of males charged with rape because the female was drunk and the guy was drunk as well (without the girl being charged with anything). There's a prevailing notion that men can't be raped by women (since you can't rape the willing). I'm not saying this is some rampant thing, but I'm just saying it shouldn't be presumed to be non-existent either (and I'm not saying I'm worried about this for myself; I'm not into the drunken bar scene lol).

edit: But if you want to continue, we can create a separate thread.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2012, 03:56:19 PM by slycordinator »

Offline eric42434224

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Re: Abortion debate
« Reply #130 on: November 17, 2012, 04:02:12 PM »
On that note, should women seeking abortion be required to present a good reason for their decision? It seems to me that failure to use birth control is an unsatisfactory reason.

 Do we withhold other medical procedures if there were mistakes or lapses in judgement made? 
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Re: Abortion debate
« Reply #131 on: November 17, 2012, 04:09:15 PM »
1) Refusing them the legal abortion because their reason wasn't one you deem good enough will only lead to them getting an illegal abortion.
2) It's not unheard of for women on birth control to get pregnant.
To 1), while that may be true in some cases, I seriously doubt most women who are denied a legal abortion seek out an illegal one. I don't know if there are any trustworthy figures on the black market of abortion, but I doubt it's as big of an issue as you think.

To 2), I'm not talking about women that used birth control and got pregnant anyway. I'm talking about women that didn't use birth control in the first place.

The other thing I wanted to bring up is that the father should have legal power in the decision making, for a number of reasons. First, the unborn child is his just as much as it is hers. Second, due to the already existent legal ties between a father and mother (like child support), the father should have a legal right to say something in the matter.
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Offline Adami

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Re: Abortion debate
« Reply #132 on: November 17, 2012, 04:13:35 PM »
Brother, from a purely ideological stand point, I totally get your point.


However from a pragmatic perspective......would you require the women to prove how they got pregnant? I mean, what if a girl banged a guy without a condom and not on the pill, but when asked, she said she was on the pill and used a condom? She can't prove it either way really, so what would be the point in asking?

You know?

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Offline Ħ

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Re: Abortion debate
« Reply #133 on: November 17, 2012, 04:19:56 PM »
I was thinking about that. I think it's a good reason the father should be involved, to make sure both the father and mother have corroborating testimonies (although they could both lie, I guess).

Involving the father could result in improvements in child support policies, too. For example, if he wants her to get an abortion but she doesn't, he doesn't have to pay child support. Lots of women lie to their partners about whether or not they're on the pill, duping their partner into getting them pregnant for money. I mean, just ask Tom Leykis.
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Offline slycordinator

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Re: Abortion debate
« Reply #134 on: November 17, 2012, 04:55:47 PM »
To 1), while that may be true in some cases, I seriously doubt most women who are denied a legal abortion seek out an illegal one. I don't know if there are any trustworthy figures on the black market of abortion, but I doubt it's as big of an issue as you think.
It depends. There are countries that have lots of abortions with them illegal, countries that have few abortions with them legal, and countries with everything in between.

To 2), I'm not talking about women that used birth control and got pregnant anyway. I'm talking about women that didn't use birth control in the first place.
Sure, but the idea you were giving made it seem like almost all women who have abortions use the singular reason of "I didn't practice birth control." It's a bit disingenuous to say "should we accept abortions if they give a good reason" then to imply that birth control is about the only good reason out there. There are many situations where a female who didn't use birth control still has good reasons to get an abortion.

For example, if he wants her to get an abortion but she doesn't, he doesn't have to pay child support.
In that case, deadbeat dads would only need to cry "If it were my choice, I'd have aborted the kid" to avoid payments.

edit: But on the "girls lying to get preggers", I found it strange that not too long ago there was a case of a guy being ordered to pay child support because the woman took his used condom out of the trash and had it used at an IVF clinic.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2012, 05:01:33 PM by slycordinator »

Offline Ħ

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Re: Abortion debate
« Reply #135 on: November 17, 2012, 05:06:49 PM »
To 1), while that may be true in some cases, I seriously doubt most women who are denied a legal abortion seek out an illegal one. I don't know if there are any trustworthy figures on the black market of abortion, but I doubt it's as big of an issue as you think.
It depends. There are countries that have lots of abortions with them illegal, countries that have few abortions with them legal, and countries with everything in between.
Right. But I don't think it follows that if abortions are restricted in any way, there will therefore be a rise in illegal abortion numbers.

Quote
To 2), I'm not talking about women that used birth control and got pregnant anyway. I'm talking about women that didn't use birth control in the first place.
Sure, but the idea you were giving made it seem like almost all women who have abortions use the singular reason of "I didn't practice birth control." It's a bit disingenuous to say "should we accept abortions if they give a good reason" then to imply that birth control is about the only good reason out there. There are many situations where a female who didn't use birth control still has good reasons to get an abortion.
Note that I didn't say that women practicing birth control were the only good candidates for abortion. All I said that women that didn't practice birth control were not good candidates.

Quote
For example, if he wants her to get an abortion but she doesn't, he doesn't have to pay child support.
In that case, deadbeat dads would only need to cry "If it were my choice, I'd have aborted the kid" to avoid payments.
It was a spontaneous idea that I decided to just bring to the table of discussion. It seems like there would have to be some procedure to prevent what you are describing. Perhaps a pre-abortion contract that must be made to verify that the father wants an abortion but the woman doesn't? This would prevent deadbeat dads from throwing their hands in the air after the fact.

In any case, requiring consensus between the mother and father in getting an abortion should be a requirement. Obviously, there'd have to be clauses on guys that just bail after the girl gets pregnant - perhaps a no-show counts as a consensus - but on the whole I think it's a very good idea.
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Offline slycordinator

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Re: Abortion debate
« Reply #136 on: November 17, 2012, 05:19:28 PM »
Note that I didn't say that women practicing birth control were the only good candidates for abortion. All I said that women that didn't practice birth control were not good candidates.
Like I said before (in the part you quoted to boot)
There are many situations where a female who didn't use birth control still has good reasons to get an abortion.

It was a spontaneous idea that I decided to just bring to the table of discussion. It seems like there would have to be some procedure to prevent what you are describing. Perhaps a pre-abortion contract that must be made to verify that the father wants an abortion but the woman doesn't? This would prevent deadbeat dads from throwing their hands in the air after the fact.
The other thing to consider is that there are men out there who get child support put on them for a kid they didn't know they had. Like the dad could say "I would've aborted the child if I knew" and for the lady to lie and say she told him. Heck, here in Washington there's no requirement for the man to be told about the kid and once they are told they owe "back payments." Now, personally I think back-payments for something a child you were never made aware of is pretty sketchy but that's legally the way it is.

In any case, requiring consensus between the mother and father in getting an abortion should be a requirement. Obviously, there'd have to be clauses on guys that just bail after the girl gets pregnant - perhaps a no-show counts as a consensus - but on the whole I think it's a very good idea.
I think it depends on the situation. Like if the guy has a history of beating the girl and he gets her pregnant, requiring her to keep the kid because he wants it could be seen just as an attempt for more control and such...

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Re: Abortion debate
« Reply #137 on: November 17, 2012, 05:23:05 PM »
Good points. There are many scenarios to think about, but we should seek to deal with them nonetheless.
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Offline Adami

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Re: Abortion debate
« Reply #138 on: November 17, 2012, 09:29:31 PM »
Not to interrupt the whole "put the girls through the inquisition before we allow an abortion" discussion, but do pro-life people also think we should ban the morning after pill? And since simple Birth Control pills can be used the exact same way, should those be banned?
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Offline Orthogonal

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Re: Abortion debate
« Reply #139 on: November 17, 2012, 09:42:48 PM »
Not to interrupt the whole "put the girls through the inquisition before we allow an abortion" discussion, but do pro-life people also think we should ban the morning after pill? And since simple Birth Control pills can be used the exact same way, should those be banned?

Most pro-lifers are dead-set opposed to morning after pill, however, interestingly birth control pills are more disputed among pro-lifers, it depends on who you talk too.