Author Topic: AOC thread  (Read 6261 times)

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Offline Cool Chris

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Re: AOC thread
« Reply #350 on: July 02, 2019, 11:12:04 AM »
That's all well and good, but several Jews were offended by her comments, and as I non-Jew, I will allow both to feel how they do. Some American Indians are offended by the name Redskins, others are not. The prevailing wisdom seems to be that if one person is offended by something, than it is by definition offensive.
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Offline Stadler

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Re: AOC thread
« Reply #351 on: July 02, 2019, 11:30:52 AM »
Look, the entire identity politics movement is predicated on the individual reaction to statements, ideas, comments.  We have no boobies on TV because a handful of people write letters every time a nipple sneaks into view.   There are stories every week - nay, every DAY - about someone offended at the most innocuous things - the peanut butter sandwich comes to mind - and there are chock full of stories - the Sarasota prom ask comes to mind here - where the intent was CLEARLY not to offend, and the other party, who should have been offended, wasn't, and yet sanctions came down as if from the hand of Zeus himself.   

Would you accept someone countering a charge of racism by citing an expert that says "that's not racism!"?  So why here?   

(And no, I'm not defending my right to be offended or not, since I don't believe I even HAVE a right to be offended.  I'm calling out the hypocrisy of the identity politics movement, how "offense" seems to be instance specific, and how these sharp objects cut both ways.   I'm saying that she of all people should know better, and since she's not the dolt that some make her out to be - just the opposite - I don't believe it was a mistake and it was intended to get the reaction it did.   Mission accomplished.)

Offline bosk1

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Re: AOC thread
« Reply #352 on: July 02, 2019, 11:38:41 AM »
I'm saying that she of all people should know better

But she clearly does NOT know better.  Or she just doesn't care.  Or maybe some combination thereof.  And that is one of the reasons she gets ridiculed on a regular basis, whether she otherwise deserves it or not.
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Offline Adami

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Re: AOC thread
« Reply #353 on: July 02, 2019, 11:51:02 AM »
She did not imply that. Not any more than Trump implied that he was pro Nazi.

Of course she did.  The concentration camps weren't being manned by the Red Cross and the Peace Corps.  No, I don't believe for a second she meant the Japanese Internment camps.  A person as "woke" as Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez wouldn't - or, perhaps, SHOULDN'T - be making that egregious an error.  She's as calculated as Taylor Swift; there was no mistake there.  Compared to her, I'm a relative Neanderthal when it comes to that identity politics awareness, and even I know to discern between the two.   (She's also done this before; comparing the border with Mexico to the Berlin Wall, and comparing what the U.S. "has" (her word) to do to what Nazi Germany had to do in the wake of WWII.   As someone who's family was decimated by the Nazi's in more ways than one, that's offensive to the extreme, and I don't offend easily.)

(Of course, this may go back to "experience"; most of the "change" in my life has been incremental, but one of the few moments of transcendental change in my past was standing in Dachau, and looking in the structures used there and being physically uncomfortable.   I absolutely did not get that level of perspective from tending bar at Stagedoor Johnny's back in '90.)

This is your interpretation, based, from what I can see, on your strong emotional reaction to the situation. It's cool and valid, but not necessarily correct.

And then saying she compared people working there to Nazis is an even further stretch.
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Offline Stadler

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Re: AOC thread
« Reply #354 on: July 02, 2019, 12:29:16 PM »
She did not imply that. Not any more than Trump implied that he was pro Nazi.

Of course she did.  The concentration camps weren't being manned by the Red Cross and the Peace Corps.  No, I don't believe for a second she meant the Japanese Internment camps.  A person as "woke" as Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez wouldn't - or, perhaps, SHOULDN'T - be making that egregious an error.  She's as calculated as Taylor Swift; there was no mistake there.  Compared to her, I'm a relative Neanderthal when it comes to that identity politics awareness, and even I know to discern between the two.   (She's also done this before; comparing the border with Mexico to the Berlin Wall, and comparing what the U.S. "has" (her word) to do to what Nazi Germany had to do in the wake of WWII.   As someone who's family was decimated by the Nazi's in more ways than one, that's offensive to the extreme, and I don't offend easily.)

(Of course, this may go back to "experience"; most of the "change" in my life has been incremental, but one of the few moments of transcendental change in my past was standing in Dachau, and looking in the structures used there and being physically uncomfortable.   I absolutely did not get that level of perspective from tending bar at Stagedoor Johnny's back in '90.)

This is your interpretation, based, from what I can see, on your strong emotional reaction to the situation. It's cool and valid, but not necessarily correct.

And then saying she compared people working there to Nazis is an even further stretch.

There are countless instances of people being accused of racism over their own personal strong emotional reaction to the situation.   Cool, valid, not necessarily correct, but honored because it's RACISM.   Hell, people like Bernie don't even couch it anymore, they openly and almost aggressively refer to Trump as a racist for a lot less than this, because he's not SENSITIVE enough to his audience.   I don't think it's unreasonable to expect a politician that has, for example, criticized Game of Thrones for being less than accomodating to the women in the storyline (talk about "personal strong emotional reaction to the situation) be more sensitive and in tune to her words.

yet another example of her being a form of the next generation of "Trump".  If I was prone to nicknames, I might even start calling her "Trump 2.0".  This is what politics looks like post-Trump.  "It's okay if I do it, but I'm going to call you out if YOU do it.  By whatever means necessary."   

Offline Rick

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Re: AOC thread
« Reply #355 on: July 02, 2019, 12:47:03 PM »

https://www.newsweek.com/holocaust-genocide-experts-defend-ocascio-cortez-concentration-camp-1446911

Also, further reading: https://www.counterpunch.org/2019/06/21/a-brief-history-of-us-concentration-camps/

I'm concerned about how people are blowing up about the term to attack AOC to deflect from the valid point she was making: this is how Bad Things begin. But people are more bothered about debating semantics rather than actually focusing on the whole scale of the concentration/detention/whatever camps where real people are suffering. It's like people don't realise you don't punch through the fog of voices on Twitter by just meekly posting "I think the places where migrants are being held against their will right now are pretty bad"
« Last Edit: July 02, 2019, 01:57:53 PM by Rick »

Offline Adami

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Re: AOC thread
« Reply #356 on: July 02, 2019, 12:59:55 PM »
She did not imply that. Not any more than Trump implied that he was pro Nazi.

Of course she did.  The concentration camps weren't being manned by the Red Cross and the Peace Corps.  No, I don't believe for a second she meant the Japanese Internment camps.  A person as "woke" as Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez wouldn't - or, perhaps, SHOULDN'T - be making that egregious an error.  She's as calculated as Taylor Swift; there was no mistake there.  Compared to her, I'm a relative Neanderthal when it comes to that identity politics awareness, and even I know to discern between the two.   (She's also done this before; comparing the border with Mexico to the Berlin Wall, and comparing what the U.S. "has" (her word) to do to what Nazi Germany had to do in the wake of WWII.   As someone who's family was decimated by the Nazi's in more ways than one, that's offensive to the extreme, and I don't offend easily.)

(Of course, this may go back to "experience"; most of the "change" in my life has been incremental, but one of the few moments of transcendental change in my past was standing in Dachau, and looking in the structures used there and being physically uncomfortable.   I absolutely did not get that level of perspective from tending bar at Stagedoor Johnny's back in '90.)

This is your interpretation, based, from what I can see, on your strong emotional reaction to the situation. It's cool and valid, but not necessarily correct.

And then saying she compared people working there to Nazis is an even further stretch.

There are countless instances of people being accused of racism over their own personal strong emotional reaction to the situation.   Cool, valid, not necessarily correct, but honored because it's RACISM.   Hell, people like Bernie don't even couch it anymore, they openly and almost aggressively refer to Trump as a racist for a lot less than this, because he's not SENSITIVE enough to his audience.   I don't think it's unreasonable to expect a politician that has, for example, criticized Game of Thrones for being less than accomodating to the women in the storyline (talk about "personal strong emotional reaction to the situation) be more sensitive and in tune to her words.

yet another example of her being a form of the next generation of "Trump".  If I was prone to nicknames, I might even start calling her "Trump 2.0".  This is what politics looks like post-Trump.  "It's okay if I do it, but I'm going to call you out if YOU do it.  By whatever means necessary."

All cool and valid bro. Still doesn't mean you are necessarily correct in your interpretation of what she said.
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Offline Stadler

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Re: AOC thread
« Reply #357 on: July 02, 2019, 02:43:02 PM »

https://www.newsweek.com/holocaust-genocide-experts-defend-ocascio-cortez-concentration-camp-1446911

Also, further reading: https://www.counterpunch.org/2019/06/21/a-brief-history-of-us-concentration-camps/

I'm concerned about how people are blowing up about the term to attack AOC to deflect from the valid point she was making: this is how Bad Things begin. But people are more bothered about debating semantics rather than actually focusing on the whole scale of the concentration/detention/whatever camps where real people are suffering. It's like people don't realise you don't punch through the fog of voices on Twitter by just meekly posting "I think the places where migrants are being held against their will right now are pretty bad"

We've debated in the past, so I would hope you know better, but if you think my position is about "semantics" or just "making her look bad", you're not paying attention.  I'm far beyond that.  In a very real way, I want her to be great.  She's just not there yet; she's the "Cam Newton" of politics; she has potential, she just doesn't know yet what it takes to be what she wants to be.  It certainly takes more than "punching through the fog of voices on Twitter".   That says it all right there.

In an oblique way, I'm actually making a similar argument to yours; that "this is how Bad Things begin"; we're just talking about different "Bad Things".  I would think it goes without saying that the children are first, but there has to be another way other than playing Trumpian games (which are themselves an outgrowth of the politics of the last two decades, and which inevitably led to Trump).   

Offline KevShmev

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Re: AOC thread
« Reply #358 on: July 02, 2019, 03:47:44 PM »
Have we really reached a point where politicians, instead of doing their job and not worrying too much about the outside noise, feel that they have to "punch through the fog of voices on Twitter" to make their point?  If that is what AOC or any other politician feels like they have to do, they should probably re-read their job description.  Like Stadler implied, lowering yourself to Trump's level is not the way to go, and it feels like that is what is AOC is doing.