Author Topic: Trump's Presidency thread. v 100 days and counting  (Read 176395 times)

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Online Adami

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Re: Trump's Presidency thread. v 100 days and counting
« Reply #5145 on: June 30, 2020, 02:45:24 PM »
With the retweet. Why can't it be possible he retweeted based on what the person wrote, without having seen the video?

Thatís exactly what happened. I donít think anyone here is suggesting otherwise. But itís a VERY dumb move.
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Offline Stadler

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Re: Trump's Presidency thread. v 100 days and counting
« Reply #5146 on: June 30, 2020, 03:06:49 PM »
This bounty thing hits close to home; I have a step son in the Army in Afghanistan right now.  His wife and three-year-old are waiting for him to come home, in one piece (physically AND mentally).  My wife (his mom) sat at her desk in a pool of tears when she read that story.  I've not seen her cry like that, well, ever.  It angers me that Trump is so cavalier about this, and I'm scared for him.  But my personal anger and fear isn't relevant.  I cannot say any of this is surprising, nor would my feelings be assuaged if he DID offer any compassion.   I am too aware of the environment in which we operate today; I don't see how in the grand scheme of things we're better with Biden.   We're talking "optics" here, and what's more important?  That the president whoever he/she is "says" the right things, or that this ACTUALLY DOESN'T HAPPEN TO FUCKING BEGIN WITH?
Once again, you're pining for what should be, and what would be best, at the expense of what we can have, and what would be an improvement. Biden doesn't fix America. Everybody's clear on that. Hell, for the sake of this discussion I'll grant that perhaps he makes things worse in the long run. Neither of those change the fact that there is a long run under Biden, and that extends to the well being of your kid. Biden sat in on every PDB. He was a foreign policy wonk before he was VP, and that's what actually landed him the gig to begin with. We can question his talent as such a person, but not his interest. Moreover, he's been around since the firickin Nixon administration. He's seen how 9 presidents deal with Russia and China. Both in the open and behind closed doors. The idea that he wouldn't be an improvement over Putin's lackey in this situation is, frankly, outlandish.

I've answered this before.   I'm not at all even remotely suggesting that we should step over "good" in the pursuit of "great".   You answered the question yourself:  I think it MAY be worse in the long run.   There's no question that Biden would be a more traditional choice in terms of international relations (and to be honest, the "international relations" arena is, in my view, by FAR Biden's best attribute and where he brings the most change).  If we're talking ONLY this context, I'm not saying he wouldn't be an improvement. 

I see the last 20, 25 years differently than most.  I don't see "Republican" or "Democrat", I see an increasing divide, I see an increasing extremism (and it's both sides) and I'm seeing little from Biden yet that is bringing that together.  That divide is what gave us Trump; if that divide is not rendered, we're GOING to be down this road again, and next time, in typical American fashion, it WILL be worse.   I do honestly believe there is a reasonable chance - I'm not saying it WILL happen, but there's a reasonable CHANCE - that a Biden win that is viewed as a mandate for the more extreme left (akin to what we saw in 2008 with "Change You Can Believe In") will be catastrophic.  I don't know what four more years of Trump will bring; it too could be catastrophic.   I just know that our work doesn't end on November 3, and bandaids have a way of supplanting additional medical attention.  We can't afford that now.

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For one thing, has Trump done ANYTHING AT ALL to garner the benefit of the doubt? He gets no credit because he's gleefully been burning through every iota of credibility he's ever been given.

To the greater point, there were [I think] 8 investigations into Benghazi. Maybe 10. All of them found that the situation was handled poorly and was probably preventable. None of them found any actual malfeasance or any attempt at a coverup. You think Trey Gowdy, then head of the investigatory comittee, wasn't super-keen to nail Hillary to a cross over it? The worst he could say was that the misleading explanations had more to do with fog or war than an attempt to be deceitful, and that little of the incompetence that resulted in the thing would have likely reached Hillary. In my book she's ultimately responsible, or even Obama, as I'm a believer in the buck stops here. In the end there simply wasn't much there, though.

I don't argue any of that; but we're treading on another topic, though, and that's the level of judgmentalism.  I think we very clearly have a guy that is over his head in terms of the day-to-day execution of his duties, but he's there.  He's the guy.  We don't get to just say "do over"; we'll have an opportunity to do that in a couple months.   But we've had this exact conversation before:  so much of this is predicated on subjective assessments of things like "intent".  Whether Trey would've or should've hung Hillary or not isn't the point.  I think I differ from the group here in that we didn't just magically devolve on January 22, 2017 into a morass of lies, deceit and lack of morals or standards. We've had shadow operations and plausible deniability for almost 80 years more or less.   Yet somewhere in the timeframe of '96 to, say, 2000, we saw a shift.   The Alan Dulles' and Robert McNamara's and James Jesus Angleton's of the world were no longer looked at - or, rather, NOT looked at - as a necessary evil, and we started to judge.   I'm sure there are people here that are more than willing to call Dick Cheney "Darth" or whatever, characterizing him as some evil behind-the-curtain Svengali.  I personally feel the same way about Hillary Clinton (I imagine the Kevin Spacey character in House Of Cards, to be specific).   Certainly we're engaged in a conversation along those lines with Trump and his band of merry men/women.   THAT'S what's got to change if we're going to be "long term better".   I don't see any bandaid for that, certainly not in either of the two candidates that are up for election in November.     

You know in those cowboy movies, when they have to pull the bullet out and the guy bites on the leather reign and takes a swig of whiskey, then the doctor pours the whiskey in the wound, then the shot guy takes another huge swig?  None of that is really long term good in terms of the rate of survival but it masks the pain.  Until I see otherwise, that's the best I see from Biden at this point. 

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In all this partisan, social-media gamesmanship, we've lost control of the ship.  Right, wrong or indifferent, there was CONTINUITY in the past.   From Eisenhower to Nixon, there were variations in style, but there was a predictability, an 'establishment' if you will, of platform when dealing with the United States Of America.   Since Clinton, we've been ping-ponging from "strategy" to "strategy" (in quotes, because it's NOT a strategy, just a loosely strung chain of tactics).  It's got to stop. We (well, I) need to start seeing something tangible from Joe that he's aware of that.   FOR ME, neither scenario is even remotely acceptable, but I think it's a fair debate to ask whether - LONG TERM FOR THE COUNTRY - knowing and willful deceit is a worthwhile trade for casual, accidental ineptitude. 
Clinton's was a pretty coherent strategy, in that it was essentially a continuation of Bush and Reagan before him. It was 2000 and the PNAC that radically changed things, and given the shitstorm it created, Obama and Trump are right to try and undo it.
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I don't dispute your timeline.   Do you see either of them actually undoing it, though?  ("Undoing it" implies reverting back and neither Obama nor Trump have done that).   

Offline Stadler

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Re: Trump's Presidency thread. v 100 days and counting
« Reply #5147 on: June 30, 2020, 03:08:05 PM »
With the retweet. Why can't it be possible he retweeted based on what the person wrote, without having seen the video?

Thatís exactly what happened. I donít think anyone here is suggesting otherwise. But itís a VERY dumb move.

Maybe not here (though I'm not betting any money on that) but generally speaking there are very definitely people that are saying he meant to communicate the message in the video.  And Donald "I notice everything" Trump hasn't done much to help his cause on that front.

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Re: Trump's Presidency thread. v 100 days and counting
« Reply #5148 on: June 30, 2020, 03:12:38 PM »
With the retweet. Why can't it be possible he retweeted based on what the person wrote, without having seen the video?

Thatís exactly what happened. I donít think anyone here is suggesting otherwise. But itís a VERY dumb move.

Maybe not here (though I'm not betting any money on that) but generally speaking there are very definitely people that are saying he meant to communicate the message in the video.  And Donald "I notice everything" Trump hasn't done much to help his cause on that front.

Well, there will always be idiots. Usually best to ignore them.

And DJ Trump has already made headlines for his really stupid statement that he didn't watch the George Floyd video because it's 8 minutes and that's too long to watch. So he's already established that he doesn't watch these things in the first place.

I don't think Trump is a very smart guy (maybe he has a few domains he is, but in general) but even he isn't dumb enough to knowingly post that video. He did it out of pure ignorance.
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Offline El Barto

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Re: Trump's Presidency thread. v 100 days and counting
« Reply #5149 on: June 30, 2020, 04:53:18 PM »
This bounty thing hits close to home; I have a step son in the Army in Afghanistan right now.  His wife and three-year-old are waiting for him to come home, in one piece (physically AND mentally).  My wife (his mom) sat at her desk in a pool of tears when she read that story.  I've not seen her cry like that, well, ever.  It angers me that Trump is so cavalier about this, and I'm scared for him.  But my personal anger and fear isn't relevant.  I cannot say any of this is surprising, nor would my feelings be assuaged if he DID offer any compassion.   I am too aware of the environment in which we operate today; I don't see how in the grand scheme of things we're better with Biden.   We're talking "optics" here, and what's more important?  That the president whoever he/she is "says" the right things, or that this ACTUALLY DOESN'T HAPPEN TO FUCKING BEGIN WITH?
Once again, you're pining for what should be, and what would be best, at the expense of what we can have, and what would be an improvement. Biden doesn't fix America. Everybody's clear on that. Hell, for the sake of this discussion I'll grant that perhaps he makes things worse in the long run. Neither of those change the fact that there is a long run under Biden, and that extends to the well being of your kid. Biden sat in on every PDB. He was a foreign policy wonk before he was VP, and that's what actually landed him the gig to begin with. We can question his talent as such a person, but not his interest. Moreover, he's been around since the firickin Nixon administration. He's seen how 9 presidents deal with Russia and China. Both in the open and behind closed doors. The idea that he wouldn't be an improvement over Putin's lackey in this situation is, frankly, outlandish.

I've answered this before.   I'm not at all even remotely suggesting that we should step over "good" in the pursuit of "great".   You answered the question yourself:  I think it MAY be worse in the long run.   There's no question that Biden would be a more traditional choice in terms of international relations (and to be honest, the "international relations" arena is, in my view, by FAR Biden's best attribute and where he brings the most change).  If we're talking ONLY this context, I'm not saying he wouldn't be an improvement. 

I see the last 20, 25 years differently than most.  I don't see "Republican" or "Democrat", I see an increasing divide, I see an increasing extremism (and it's both sides) and I'm seeing little from Biden yet that is bringing that together.  That divide is what gave us Trump; if that divide is not rendered, we're GOING to be down this road again, and next time, in typical American fashion, it WILL be worse.   I do honestly believe there is a reasonable chance - I'm not saying it WILL happen, but there's a reasonable CHANCE - that a Biden win that is viewed as a mandate for the more extreme left (akin to what we saw in 2008 with "Change You Can Believe In") will be catastrophic.  I don't know what four more years of Trump will bring; it too could be catastrophic.   I just know that our work doesn't end on November 3, and bandaids have a way of supplanting additional medical attention.  We can't afford that now.
I get your assessment of this and I think it's probably right. And when we have had this conversation before, it's always come down to my belief that that somebody who's going in the wrong direction despite trying his best not to is better than having a drunken cowboy barrelling towards the cliff at breakneck speed because he thinks it'll be really cool. Biden represents a pause, and if after the pause things get worse then so be it. We already know where Trump is leading us. Personally, I'd rather see this country crash and burn 20 years from now than 6.

And honestly, I think you might need to incorporate into your reasoning the very real possibility that this country is irrecoverable. I've been making that point for ten years and I've seen nothing but reinforcement. From where I'm standing you're not going to see anybody fix our underlying problems. The truth is that Americans don't want those problems fixed. We bitch and moan about how awful our politicians are, but as a whole we're not willing to better ourselves to resolve the issue. Perhaps if you think it's better for us to crash and burn sooner as opposed to later then Trump really is your guy. And if your goal is to wait for somebody to come along and fix it, the more time we can muster the greater the [unlikely] the messiah comes and saves us all.

Seriously, whether or not to wear masks as recommended by EVERY GOD DAMNED DOCTOR IN THE COUNTRY has become a partisan issue. It's an example of he liberals trying to take away our liberty. These people don't want to fix anything. They just want to win.


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For one thing, has Trump done ANYTHING AT ALL to garner the benefit of the doubt? He gets no credit because he's gleefully been burning through every iota of credibility he's ever been given.

To the greater point, there were [I think] 8 investigations into Benghazi. Maybe 10. All of them found that the situation was handled poorly and was probably preventable. None of them found any actual malfeasance or any attempt at a coverup. You think Trey Gowdy, then head of the investigatory comittee, wasn't super-keen to nail Hillary to a cross over it? The worst he could say was that the misleading explanations had more to do with fog or war than an attempt to be deceitful, and that little of the incompetence that resulted in the thing would have likely reached Hillary. In my book she's ultimately responsible, or even Obama, as I'm a believer in the buck stops here. In the end there simply wasn't much there, though.

I don't argue any of that; but we're treading on another topic, though, and that's the level of judgmentalism.  I think we very clearly have a guy that is over his head in terms of the day-to-day execution of his duties, but he's there.  He's the guy.  We don't get to just say "do over"; we'll have an opportunity to do that in a couple months.   But we've had this exact conversation before:  so much of this is predicated on subjective assessments of things like "intent".  Whether Trey would've or should've hung Hillary or not isn't the point.  I think I differ from the group here in that we didn't just magically devolve on January 22, 2017 into a morass of lies, deceit and lack of morals or standards. We've had shadow operations and plausible deniability for almost 80 years more or less.   Yet somewhere in the timeframe of '96 to, say, 2000, we saw a shift.   The Alan Dulles' and Robert McNamara's and James Jesus Angleton's of the world were no longer looked at - or, rather, NOT looked at - as a necessary evil, and we started to judge.   I'm sure there are people here that are more than willing to call Dick Cheney "Darth" or whatever, characterizing him as some evil behind-the-curtain Svengali.  I personally feel the same way about Hillary Clinton (I imagine the Kevin Spacey character in House Of Cards, to be specific).   Certainly we're engaged in a conversation along those lines with Trump and his band of merry men/women.   THAT'S what's got to change if we're going to be "long term better".   I don't see any bandaid for that, certainly not in either of the two candidates that are up for election in November. 

My point wasn't whether or not Trey should have or would have nailed her to a cross. It was that he could not have because there really wasn't anything there. And yet judgment still abounds, does it not? People are promoting false narratives to create some sort of equivalency.
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In all this partisan, social-media gamesmanship, we've lost control of the ship.  Right, wrong or indifferent, there was CONTINUITY in the past.   From Eisenhower to Nixon, there were variations in style, but there was a predictability, an 'establishment' if you will, of platform when dealing with the United States Of America.   Since Clinton, we've been ping-ponging from "strategy" to "strategy" (in quotes, because it's NOT a strategy, just a loosely strung chain of tactics).  It's got to stop. We (well, I) need to start seeing something tangible from Joe that he's aware of that.   FOR ME, neither scenario is even remotely acceptable, but I think it's a fair debate to ask whether - LONG TERM FOR THE COUNTRY - knowing and willful deceit is a worthwhile trade for casual, accidental ineptitude. 
Clinton's was a pretty coherent strategy, in that it was essentially a continuation of Bush and Reagan before him. It was 2000 and the PNAC that radically changed things, and given the shitstorm it created, Obama and Trump are right to try and undo it.

I don't dispute your timeline.   Do you see either of them actually undoing it, though?  ("Undoing it" implies reverting back and neither Obama nor Trump have done that).
Biden might. Let's keep in mind there was a transition from Russia being the focus to those shithole countries. Biden is the one potential president who was around for a big chunk of the cold war, and he might recognize some of the patterns. Moreover, there are plenty of generals and advisors that can point him in the right direction. Trump has no such people. Honestly, who do you trust setting foreign policy, a wonk with the best advisors he can scrounge up, or Trump's gut?
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Re: Trump's Presidency thread. v 100 days and counting
« Reply #5150 on: June 30, 2020, 05:17:49 PM »
And honestly, I think you might need to incorporate into your reasoning the very real possibility that this country is irrecoverable. I've been making that point for ten years and I've seen nothing but reinforcement. From where I'm standing you're not going to see anybody fix our underlying problems. The truth is that Americans don't want those problems fixed. We bitch and moan about how awful our politicians are, but as a whole we're not willing to better ourselves to resolve the issue. Perhaps if you think it's better for us to crash and burn sooner as opposed to later then Trump really is your guy. And if your goal is to wait for somebody to come along and fix it, the more time we can muster the greater the [unlikely] the messiah comes and saves us all.

I'm not giving up hope just yet......I really think that America will get to a point to where 'we' say enough is enough when speaking about Politicians in general.......and think it's pretty close. I think more people on 'both sides' are so sick of the divisive nature of politics and realize that we all have a lot more in common than we differ......and are starting to understand and pay more attention to the fact that our Political leaders are intentionally pitting us against each other to keep us distracted from the sickening corruption in our Congress.

I think we're legit within one or two election cycles of getting a 'real' leader in office who will lead the crusade against and eviction of the entrenched 'royalty' that resides in Washington today. Those people are out there.....I think they will step up but unfortunately the 'crash and burn' is necessary to flush them out.

Biden's single term may help as we all can agree that at bare minimum he will bring at least the illusion of decency and respect back to the Oval Office. He's been around long enough to know how to play a role. He's not going to get any massive initiative's passed or sweeping historical movements in place.....but he can at least right the ship a bit and steer us to some calmer waters. Hopefully. I think we all understand should trump somehow win in November that the next 4 years will make the last 4 years look like paddy cake. 
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Re: Trump's Presidency thread. v 100 days and counting
« Reply #5151 on: June 30, 2020, 06:46:12 PM »
And honestly, I think you might need to incorporate into your reasoning the very real possibility that this country is irrecoverable. I've been making that point for ten years and I've seen nothing but reinforcement. From where I'm standing you're not going to see anybody fix our underlying problems. The truth is that Americans don't want those problems fixed. We bitch and moan about how awful our politicians are, but as a whole we're not willing to better ourselves to resolve the issue. Perhaps if you think it's better for us to crash and burn sooner as opposed to later then Trump really is your guy. And if your goal is to wait for somebody to come along and fix it, the more time we can muster the greater the [unlikely] the messiah comes and saves us all.

I'm not giving up hope just yet......I really think that America will get to a point to where 'we' say enough is enough when speaking about Politicians in general.......and think it's pretty close. I think more people on 'both sides' are so sick of the divisive nature of politics and realize that we all have a lot more in common than we differ......and are starting to understand and pay more attention to the fact that our Political leaders are intentionally pitting us against each other to keep us distracted from the sickening corruption in our Congress.

I think we're legit within one or two election cycles of getting a 'real' leader in office who will lead the crusade against and eviction of the entrenched 'royalty' that resides in Washington today. Those people are out there.....I think they will step up but unfortunately the 'crash and burn' is necessary to flush them out.
Dude, a facebook friend posted her excitement about finally getting her "FUCK YOUR MASK" T-shirt in, and she'll be proudly wearing it tomorrow. What kind of leader is going to reunite her with sanity? We've taken something patently obvious and turned it into a partisan divide. Under the right circumstances I bet I could create a situation where half the people think that flushing after taking a dump is an infringement on their own liberty, and turn it into another political issue. And it's only going to get worse.
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Re: Trump's Presidency thread. v 100 days and counting
« Reply #5152 on: July 01, 2020, 05:34:06 AM »
Bill might have it right ... it may take a crash-and-burn event/period before anything meaningful changes. I donít think that itís 1-2 election cycles away - especially if the devolution of US politics is a self serving and repeating cycle as I mentioned before.

I do sense a gradual coming together of the middle/moderates. But as a former work President of mine use to always profess, you can take pretty much any group of people and divide them 1/3-1/3-1/3. On the matter of the political divide, take that as Right-moderate-Left. There will always be outliers.  My sense is that the Right grouping tend to be more vehement, belligerent (see EBs example above) and ďextremeĒ - by which I mean there seems to be a bigger grouping of people that are further ďRightĒ than the grouping of people that are further ďLeftĒ

But in the end, thereís still only 1/3 of the nation that seems to be willing to come together in the middle.
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Re: Trump's Presidency thread. v 100 days and counting
« Reply #5153 on: July 01, 2020, 08:00:35 AM »
Chad's right about the outliers, and I don't typically account for them.  That's why to me social media is such a scourge, because it over-emphasizes that extreme.  Sorry, I'm going to say this:  as much as I agree with the concept of "Black Lives Matter" (and I do) and as much as I do think we need a LOT more compassion in our dealings with others (and I do), the fact is, this recent upheaval is not based on the middle of the bell-curve in terms of events.   We are NOT talking about events that happen in the majority or even the plurality of events.   They are outliers in terms of statistical frequency.  That doesn't minimize them, but let's keep some perspective.  Same with the more extreme (and dangerous) of the MAGA crowd.   It's fun to show the videos of fat, uncoordinated people we don't agree with dancing to Michael Jackson, but that's not in and of itself "deplorable"; those people have to trigger correlations with the more extreme people to have effect.  That's not reality, that's perception. 

Bart, I don't think "irrecoverable" is the worst thing in the world, frankly, and while I don't see full-on revolution that changes the face of our country, I can see getting to a point that is a historical inflection point.   I do think that our nature is to ignore that which isn't impacting us directly.  I think Biden is an inducement to ignore all this stuff and hope it goes away.  He will UNDOUBTEDLY, WITHOUT QUESTION be a calmer, soothing presence in the White House.  He is not and will not be a uniter for the Bernie Bros. and the MAGA crowd, and FOR ME, veering too far in either direction will be a problem for us moving forward.  The issue for me, is, while I don't see him veering into MAGA territory - which, no offense, I think is enough for many of the people here - I DO see him veering into Bernie Bros. territory, and while morally that might not be a problem (it is to me, but I'm irrelevant on this level) it IS divisive, and Trump is the walking, talking, squawking proof of that.

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Re: Trump's Presidency thread. v 100 days and counting
« Reply #5154 on: July 01, 2020, 08:02:44 AM »
Not precisely on point, but for anyone that cares, the "idea" I put forth in the election thread about the increase of the "us-versus-them" mindset more than anything influences my thinking on the current administration and the upcoming election.   It's certainly not "supporting Trump", it's more that I try to stay away from "us-versus-them" statements, even about Trump.   That's not to say I don't have contempt and disgust for him personally; I just don't think my personal subjective judgments on the man are relevant in trying to bridge sides and find consensus.

I know it's not subject-matter relevant, but I think this excerpt from an interview with Steve Vai, back in 1988, really has relevance: 

""And anyway, when you look at it I'm not really famous; I may be [famous] in the music business, but when you think about what fame and history really mean, that's something different. I believe that there are musicians right now who are 'famous' who won't survive history, but I also believe there are people alive right now who will be historical figures, whether they're famous now or not." 

That longer view of how musical history works gives Vai perspective; no past experience, no present or future potential looms so large that it obscures the arc of the whole..."

I think the arc of the whole is really where I'm focusing now, and in part because I think the current situation is so in flux and subject to change that it's easy to look at, but hard to really place in context.