Genesis Discography

[The Letter M]

I've come to accept that Genesis by this point was really a different band that just happened to have three guys who were in an earlier version of the band.  In interviews, however, they seem to waffle between insisting that they were still Genesis, and saying that the newer version of the band should be judged on its own merits (which to me is pretty much the same as saying that it should be treated as a different band).

For me, the problem isn't that I'm a proghead and cried myself to sleep over the demise of one of my favorite prog bands.  It's that I didn't really care for the band that they'd become.  I just didn't like a lot of the music they made, and some of it I outright disliked.  And yes, I did like a lot of it.  "Abacab" is unlike anything they did in the old days, and I love it.  It's one of my favorite Genesis tunes.  Same with "Turn It On Again".  Those are both tight, catchy songs that had some adventure to them.

But while there is some pop music that I like, I've just never been big on pop music.  I don't find most of it very interesting.  Catchy, sure.  And it can be well-written and well-produced, certainly.  But in general, there has to be something more to it than two verses, a break, another verse, then repeat until fade.

I can't say I understand your example of "Me and Sarah Jane".  To me, that's one of the proggier songs from "Abacab" simply because of its linear structure.  It's not a pop song at all and yes, it would not have been completely out of place on either of the '76 albums, except for the drum machine.

Genesis kept one foot in the prog until the end, always including at least a song or two with a bit more going on than your standard pop tripe.  And the pop they made was good pop, better than a lot of 80's music.  But that's not saying much, really.

And all of that above is pretty much why, for the most part, I will enjoy Genesis' entire catalog over Yes', despite Yes having a wider and deeper catalog, their sudden stylistic changes (mostly due to near-constant personnel changes) were a bit off-putting. With Genesis, their change was gradual, and you can hear, even in the Gabriel-Era days, how there were plenty of pop elements, and that in their later years, there were still plenty of prog elements, with a few songs on each album employing some sort of proggy change or chord progression, time change, solo, etc. etc. Heck, their career-high album We Can't Dance ends with an epic song with a lengthy keyboard solo in the middle, something that would remind one of "The Cinema Show" or "Duke's Travels/Duke's End".

Sure they always kept a foot in the prog-door, but that's GOOD. Yes sometimes barely had a pinky-finger in that door, and other times were half-way through it, but it was very hectic over the course of time.

-Marc.

[Orbert]

Yes and Genesis were very different bands.  I agree with you that the change in Genesis sound was much more gradual.  My comment that they kept one foot in the prog was meant to be a good thing, but I guess it may not have come across that way.  Sometimes it seems like they did it out of obligation to their long-time fans, just throwing them a bone.  I know that's not true, as even on Tony's solo albums, he usually has at least one or two long tunes that go through some prog changes.

And I agree with you about "Fading Lights".  That's a beautiful song, one of my favorites.  The instrumental section is similar to "Second Home by the Sea" in that it's a series of vignettes over an essentially static background.  Even the instrumental from "The Cinema Show" goes through a couple of key changes.  But overall, it's a fine break in a great song.  I always saw the title as having a secondary meaning, being the closing track on the final Genesis album (until Calling All Stations, anyway).

Yes almost flaunts their constant lineup changes.  They really have no choice, it seems to happen whether they like it or not, so they might as well embrace it.  Over 40 years and dozens of albums, there are never more than two albums in a row with the same lineup.  But this brings a fantastic variety to their catalogue, and that too can be a strength.  There's some Yes that doesn't really thrill me, but there are almost no songs that I outright dislike.  There's a fair amount of later Genesis that I really can't handle.

[Unlegit]

Great thread 

Really enjoyed reading all the lengthy write-ups!

[Orbert]

Genesis: Three Sides Live (1982)



Tony Banks - Keyboards, Background Vocals
Phil Collins - Lead Vocals, Drums, Percussion
Mike Rutherford -  Guitar, Bass, Background Vocals

with

Daryl Stuermer - Bass, Guitar
Chester Thompson - Drums

----------

ORIGINAL U.S. TRACK LISTING

Side One
Turn It On Again
Dodo
Abacab

Side Two
Behind the Lines
Duchess
Me and Sarah Jane
Follow You Follow Me

Side Three
Misunderstanding
In The Cage
Afterglow

Side Four (studio tracks)
Paperlate
You Might Recall
Me and Virgil
Evidence of Autumn
Open Door


U.K. TRACK LISTING AND ALL LATER VERSIONS

Turn It On Again
Dodo
Abacab
Behind the Lines
Duchess
Me and Sarah Jane
Follow You Follow Me
Misunderstanding
In The Cage
Afterglow
One for the Vine
The Fountain of Salmacis
It/Watcher of the Skies

Note: In all versions, the second track is listed as "Dodo" but is actually both "Dodo" and "Lurker".

----------

Even though it had only been three studio albums since their last live album, it had been nearly five years, and their sound had changed enough that it was time to document it with another live album.

In the studio, Genesis was now a three-piece band, but on stage, as always, they were five.  Chester Thompson, who had played drums on every tour since Wind & Wuthering was still with them, and after the departure of Steve Hackett, they enlisted the services of Daryl Stuermer as their fifth member on stage.  Typically, Daryl would play guitar on older material originally played by Steve Hackett or Anthony Phillips; on more recent material, he would play bass and Mike would play guitar.  This was the standard Genesis live band through We Can't Dance in 1992, and was also the lineup for the reunion tour in 2007.

At the time, Daryl was a session musician known mostly for his work with Jean-Luc Ponty, although he would go on to release several solo albums, play on most of Phil's solo tours, and appear on Phil's, Tony's, and Mike's solo albums.

The title Three Sides Live came from the fact that in the U.S., the album was originally released on LP, with three sides of live material mostly from the Abacab tour, and a fourth side of unreleased studio tracks from the Abacab and Duke sessions.  In the U.K., however, the three Abacab outtakes had already been officially released on the EP 3 x 3 ("three by three") so the U.K. release had a fourth side of live material, and this became the official track listing for all CD versions of the album as well.

The first Genesis live album, Live, is a single album and a single word.  The second live album was a double album and had a two-word title with a double meaning: Seconds Out.  This, their third live album, has a three-word title and references the number three: Three Sides Live.  (This may or may not all be coincidence.)

Everything on the original three live sides came from the Abacab tour, with one exception.  "Follow You Follow Me" came from the Duke tour the previous year.  On the fourth live side, "One for the Vine" and "The Fountain of Salmacis" also came from the Duke tour.  The closing track, a medley of "It" and an excerpt from "Watcher of the Skies" actually came from the A Trick of the Tail tour, and thus has Steve Hackett on guitar and Bill Bruford on Drums.

The playing itself reflects the "new" Genesis sound.  Leaner arrangements, with the songs themselves worked into tight, well-arranged jams.  There are very few background vocals; instead, Phil tends to scat (as during the coda of "Turn It On Again") or otherwise ad-lib ("Misunderstanding" and others).  As on Seconds Out, Phil occassionally joins Chester on the drums, and many of the instrumental sections feature double drumming.  "Abacab", "Turn It On Again", "Behind the Lines", and "In The Cage" (a medley of songs from The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway and "The Cinema Show" from Selling England by the Pound) are the primary examples.

----------

I love the instrumental part of "Abacab" here.  That closing section on the studio version which sounded like improvisation (and may have been) here becomes a terrific, scripted duet between the keyboards and the guitar.  The drums go through some changes as well.  Listen to how they switch to the floor toms during the guitar solo, and how you soon realize that it's not really a guitar solo after all, but merely the next part of the duet.  The keys sneak back in, and soon everything builds up to a big ending.

"Turn It On Again" has a great ending, too.  Once again, Genesis writes some great codas.  Trivia: the chords during buildup in "Abacab" are the same as the chords in the coda to "Turn It On Again", just in a different key.  In "Turn It On Again" it's D to A over B.  In "Abacab" it's Eb to Bb over C.

It always bugged me that they fade out "Duchess" before it gets to "Guide Vocal", especially because we know that they did go into that song.  It's not like it wouldn't fit; the song itself is what, a minute long?  Those three songs go together!

And as much as I dig Phil's scatting at the end of "Turn It On Again" (okay, it's not true scatting, but I'm not sure what you'd call it), when he does a similar thing at the end of "Misunderstanding" I just find it annoying.  Maybe it's the song.

[Orbert]

Great thread 

Really enjoyed reading all the lengthy write-ups!

Ha ha, thanks!  Just Orbert being a know-it-all showoff, as usual.

[The Letter M]

TSL is a great live album, and a wonderful follow-up from SO. The track list is pretty good, and even though I wish there were a couple more tracks from ATTWT, I can't really complain. The inclusion of Side 4 live tracks makes this album golden, IMO, especially with "One For The Vine" and "It/Watcher Of The Skies".

As an addition to this album, I made a 3rd CD from the live tracks on Archive 2, recorded from concerts between the Trick and Abacab tours:
Archive 2: Live - Disc 1 - 54:54
1. "Entangled" - 7:02 (1976)
2. "Burning Rope" - 7:25 (1978)
3. "Deep In The Motherlode" - 5:47 (1980)
4. "The Lady Lies" - 6:08 (1980)
5. "Ripples" - 9:54 (1980)
6. "No Reply At All" - 4:56 (1981)
7. "Man On The Corner" - 4:05 (1981)
8. "Duke's Travels/Duke's End" - 9:37 (1980)

It's the perfect vinyl-length addition to TSL, taking tracks recorded during the same tours used for TSL (with the addition of "Burning Rope" from the ATTWT tour).

Anyways, back to TSL itself, I haven't listened to it in awhile, so I think I'll revisit this one real soon!

-Marc.

[DebraKadabra]

And as much as I dig Phil's scatting at the end of "Turn It On Again" (okay, it's not true scatting, but I'm not sure what you'd call it), when he does a similar thing at the end of "Misunderstanding" I just find it annoying.  Maybe it's the song.

HEAR HEAR
 
Other than that, Three Sides is a VERY good live album - always thought so, too.  I remember first hearing it during some vacation (either spring break, summer break or winter break) while I was at my Dad's.  It would get played sometimes on Sunday nights down in Houston when the DJ would play seven albums in their entirety.
 
Good times.

[ytserush]

As a point of clarification (and because I get anal about this stuff), The US version of Three Sides Live  initially did have the studio side. At least the two copies I had.

The first copy I sold back before the remaster came out and it was then I noticed the remaster was release with the UK tracks, so I had to buy another US version.

I've kept both the US original and the 1994 remaster because of the tracklisting difference.

[Orbert]

You know, I thought that that was the case, because I was pretty sure I'd seen the fourth side studio.  That's what I get for trusting Wiki.  I should've stuck to my gut.

[Orbert]

Genesis (1983)



Crap, I did it again.  I "Modified" the writeup for Genesis instead of quoting it and editing it to create the writeup for Invisible Touch.  Oh well, it's gone now.  Sorry about that.  Here's the album cover.

No replies for five days, so I guess we were done with this one anyway.

[The Letter M]

This album was the defining turning-point for the band's career - a lot of album-hits, as you said Orbert, and more pop than prog in a higher ratio than ever.

For me, this was a hard album to get into. The first three songs (I still count both "Home" tracks as one song) are great, classic Genesis and a wonderful way to open the album. But then "Illegal Alien" came up and it just stopped me dead. I didn't get it. Was it serious, or meant to be ironic? Or perhaps even sarcastic? It wasn't until recent years that I've warmed up to it and it's crazy/wacky sounds, but even today I find it truly silly. Other than that, Side Two is good, especially "Silver Rainbow" and "It's Gonna Get Better". It surprised me that they had decided to edit the opening and closing tracks of the album for official release. Were they deliberately trying to pop-ify the song lengths in an effort to gain more radio airplay?

Anyway, the album is GOOD, but not great. It's on par with the two albums that surround it, which isn't saying much in the grand scheme of things.

-Marc.

[Nel]

I fucking love this album, and it's in my top 3 for Genesis. Mama is a great dark and pounding track (love when the drums kick in harder), That's All is a nice catchy tune, Home By The Sea/Second Home By The Sea I loved the second I first heard it. When I ripped the two tracks to iTunes, I did it as one track. Just A Job To Do is another catchy track, and I've always liked Silver Rainbow and It's Gonna Get Better. Great closers to the album. Taking It All Too Hard is... just kind of there. Never cared for it and I usually skip it.

And then we have Illegal Alien. And TLM has it down pat. After four fantastic tracks, this stinker comes along and stops the whole thing dead. What were they thinking? I don't even give a crap about the racist overtones people have complained about in the past; it's just a silly stupid song that comes in at exactly the wrong time. Remove that, and this could very well be my #1 for Genesis. At any rate, it's certainly my favorite of Genesis' pop phase, and I feel like everything afterward is downhill (though I still like Invisible Touch, the 90s albums are a different story entirely).

Not much to say on the album cover. Like Taking It All Too Hard, it's just kind of there.

[Jaq]

I still own my cassette copy of Three Sides Live-my original vinyl copies from the 80s, because I hunted down the import version to get the now-standard live fourth side, are long gone-and I've always had a fondness for it. It has what I consider the definitive version of Afterglow-you have to have that huge drum fill near the end to make it Afterglow-and is a rock solid live album. I can see where people who were Genesis fans before they became huge might be annoyed to see that the truly prog stuff is left to a medley, but overall it's a good live album.

Genesis, now.

I go into this admitting that, of the albums the band released from 1978 to 1991, this is my least favorite. Yes, I like Invisible Touch better. I still, however, like it. Genesis by 1983 simply wasn't a prog rock band anymore, and approaching their last three albums with Phil through the prism of progressive rock will simply result in being let down. That being said, while most of this album could safely be considered pop...compared to the pop music spectrum that surrounded this album, this album, minus Illegal Alien, which to this day kind of perplexes me, is clever. Genesis had evolved into a band of songwriters that crafted well made, clever pop-rock songs. As this was the era when I got into Genesis, perhaps I approach it differently than someone who got into the band in, say, 1970 or 1976 or even 1978. But as I said discussing Abacab, I get the sense that Genesis became this band because they wanted to be, because their attempts to be deliberately prog simply weren't working. But compare Mama to the rest of the pop-rock spectrum in 1983, and it's WEIRD.  Mama premiered on MTV in roughly the same time frame as the song Heart and Soul by Huey Lewis, and those two songs weren't even on the same planet, pop music wise. I like every era of Genesis, and I have no problem admitting that there are times where I like this era more than some of the Gabriel stuff. I'm also aware that is a massive YMMV moment, though. 

[Orbert]

I think "Mama" was the first single and first MTv video from this album.  I seem to remember seeing/hearing it and thinking how cool it was that the first single was kinda dark and weird, not a happy sappy pop song.  And the tour was "The Mama Tour" which, while not definitive, would seem to be a clue.  I'm sure the tour was being put together as soon after the album release as possible, or maybe even before, so naming it after the first single made sense, especially since the album was self-titled.

Like most Genesis albums, I pretty much know every note of every song here.  There was a time when this album got played at least once a day, sometimes twice.  After a while, it was just Side One, but I didn't feel the need to give this one two full plays before writing it up, especially since it'd been five days since the last one.  Kinda wacky how after all that time, ytserush posted a followup to Three Sides Live just as a I was previewing this writeup.

Anyway, I found "Illegal Alien" to be a bit more tolerable than I'd remembered (though not by much).  Maybe because here in the digital age, there's no break after "Second Home by the Sea".  I remember a couple of times, I'd flip the record over and silently dread hearing that first song on Side Two.  That's probably what led me to eventually just play Side One and leave it at that.  I have a rule about always playing an entire side of a record, to avoid pops and scratches.

On the other hand, after the proggiest track(s) on the album, I can imagine "Illegal Alien" being quite a shock when it comes at you without a break in between.  See, there used to be that pause to turn the record over.  Side One and Side Two have very different personalities, and it almost seems wrong to join them seemlessly like that.  But this is how we do music these days.

The cover photo is the scattered pieces from inside the Tupperware "Shape-O" toy.  I'm not sure why whoever wrote up the Wiki article felt the need to change the spelling, but I know that this is correct because we had one when I was a kid, and again when I was raising my own kids.



I think the photographer just like the simplicity of the color and the shapes (sans Foo).

[Zydar]

I like Illegal Alien, a nice and catchy song with a funny video. No more or less. Home By The Sea is probably my favourite here, with That's All as a second favourite.

Edit: I'm listening to Home By The Sea right now, and was thinking about the brief chord after the first chorus (0:56) that Tony is playing - what chord is it? Orbert?

[Orbert]

Obviously an Em variant of some kind.  The dissonance sounds familiar, maybe that's a major 7 in there.  Or maybe just a 2 trying to pass itself off as a 9.  I'll mess around on the keys when I get a chance and see if I can figure it out.

[snowdog]

It always bugged me that they fade out "Duchess" before it gets to "Guide Vocal", especially because we know that they did go into that song.  It's not like it wouldn't fit; the song itself is what, a minute long?  Those three songs go together!

They didn't actually do Guide Vocal on the Abacab tour.  It was performed on the Duke tour though.  Duchess actually segued into The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway on the Abacab tour so it made sense for them to fade it out like that on the live album.

Also Fountain of Salmacis was recorded on the ATTWT tour.  I'm a bit of a live Genesis nerd so forgive me for being picky.  Incidentally here is a great resource for live shows/setlists... https://www.genesis-movement.org/boots.php

Any I've missed the last few album discussions.  Abacab is the first Genesis album I ever remember hearing.  My brother bought it and I remember listening to it and liking the synthesizer sounds.  I couldn't have been more than 5 at the time.  I liked the title track and Dodo.  To this day I still think those are the best tracks on the album.  Who Dunnit? is really bad.  I'm really surprised that song survived to be played on the Mama tour. 

I love Three Sides Live!  As you had mentioned the live version of Abacab totally blows away the studio version.  And I personally think they improved it each subsequent tour.  Dodo is equally powerful.  The "In the Cage Medley" is awesome.  I heard this album before getting into the Gabriel stuff so these are the versions of the songs I always loved the most.  I still do with the exception of The Cinema Show which I would give the edge to the version on Second's Out.

As for "Genesis" I personally find it to be the worst album they've done (though Invisible Touch isn't far behind).  There is some good stuff though.  Mana, Home by the Sea, Just a Job to Do, and Gonna Get Better are good.  The rest of the album I could really do without.  I skip "Taking it All Too Hard" so much that once when I heard it on the radio I wasn't sure if it was a Collins song or a Genesis song. 

I remember reading a funny quote from Tony once.  When he was compiling stuff to be placed on the first Archives box sets (the one that contained non-album tracks only)  he asked the rest of the band what should be included.  Phil said "You've got to have Silver Rainbow on there".  Tony responded "Phil you realize that's already on an album right?"  That's one of the many examples where I see that Tony really cares about the band and their history and the other guys not as much.  In many ways Genesis was his band.

[Orbert]

They didn't actually do Guide Vocal on the Abacab tour.  It was performed on the Duke tour though.  Duchess actually segued into The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway on the Abacab tour so it made sense for them to fade it out like that on the live album.

Okay, that makes sense.

Also Fountain of Salmacis was recorded on the ATTWT tour.  I'm a bit of a live Genesis nerd so forgive me for being picky.  Incidentally here is a great resource for live shows/setlists... https://www.genesis-movement.org/boots.php

Thanks for the link.  I think I knew/heard about that site a long time ago, but I don't really collect bootlegs.  If I stumble across one, sure, but I don't go out of my way.

Once again Wiki has let me down.  I used to avoid Wikipedia out of principle (for obvious reasons) but so many people seem to think that it's actually reliable, and it's my understanding that there's a certain amount of policing and accountability these days.  But that's two or three times just in this thread that there's been wrong information there.

According to the Wiki page for Three Sides Live:

"Follow You Follow Me" – 4:58
Lyceum Ballrooms, London, 06 May 1980

"One for the Vine" (Banks) – 11:04
Theatre Royal Drury Lane, London, 05 May 1980

"The Fountain of Salmacis" (Banks/Collins/Gabriel/Hackett/Rutherford) – 8:37
Theatre Royal Drury Lane, London, 05 May 1980

That's why I said they were all from the Duke tour.  I mean, supposedly "One for the Vine" and "The Fountain of Salmacis" were from the same night.  Fuck Wikipedia.  I should just stick with actual sources.  Meta sources suck.

Who Dunnit? is really bad.  I'm really surprised that song survived to be played on the Mama tour. 

Apparently Genesis themselves really like the song.  I have no idea why.  When they played it, and Phil put on the silly mask and danced around and sang it, I forced myself to sit through it.  I thought that maybe the song gained something from being played live, something that had escaped me and which was missing from the studio version.  Sometimes seeing a song played live can give you an appreciation for it that you didn't have before.  Nope.  It was still really bad.

I love Three Sides Live!  As you had mentioned the live version of Abacab totally blows away the studio version.  And I personally think they improved it each subsequent tour.  Dodo is equally powerful.  The "In the Cage Medley" is awesome.  I heard this album before getting into the Gabriel stuff so these are the versions of the songs I always loved the most.  I still do with the exception of The Cinema Show which I would give the edge to the version on Second's Out.

Both are terrific live albums.  Great choices of songs (even if "Afterglow" is on both), and some great playing.

As for "Genesis" I personally find it to be the worst album they've done (though Invisible Touch isn't far behind).  There is some good stuff though.  Mana, Home by the Sea, Just a Job to Do, and Gonna Get Better are good.  The rest of the album I could really do without.  I skip "Taking it All Too Hard" so much that once when I heard it on the radio I wasn't sure if it was a Collins song or a Genesis song. 

I try not to think of Genesis albums as "better" or "worse".  There's just the ones I like better than others, and the ones I don't like.  Invisible Touch is easily my least favorite, but a lot of people love it.

Does this contradict my statement that "Who Dunnit?" is really bad?  No!  "Who Dunnit?" is really bad.

I remember reading a funny quote from Tony once.  When he was compiling stuff to be placed on the first Archives box sets (the one that contained non-album tracks only)  he asked the rest of the band what should be included.  Phil said "You've got to have Silver Rainbow on there".  Tony responded "Phil you realize that's already on an album right?"  That's one of the many examples where I see that Tony really cares about the band and their history and the other guys not as much.  In many ways Genesis was his band.

I remember reading that somewhere, too!

Tony and Peter seemed like the co-leaders in the early days, and once Peter left, and especially after Steve left, you'd think that Mike would have stepped up more, being the other original member.  But Phil was coming out of his shell and I think Mike just has a more laid-back personality.  He's very talkative in interviews, even assertive sometimes, but he seems to realize that Tony and Phil aren't gonna dial it down, so he backs off a bit.  He's got Mike + The Mechanics, which is definitely his band, and Phil had all his solo stuff and was on half of the albums recorded in the 80's.  Tony has joked about how no one buys his solo albums, but you can tell that it does bother him, and I always feel a little sad for him.  I think Tony is a brilliant composer and songwriter, but with few exceptions, he needs to collaborate with someone else, even just a little, to really shine.  He's written some amazing songs with Genesis, but there isn't a single song on any of his solo albums that really blows me away, and I've heard most of them.  Genesis was Tony's baby more than the others.  Tony's solo albums seemed like just something for him to do while waiting for Genesis to get back together again.

His orchestral stuff that he does now is great.  Beautiful, lush, and with lots of those great modulations and chord tricks.  But at the same time, they're still practically background music.  It's not like there are catchy melodies or parts where you can sing along.

[snowdog]

Regarding Tony's solo career, I like bits of it.  I think his first "A Curious Feeling" is his best but nothing that could be ranked higher than something in my top 15 Genesis songs.  I particularly like the songs Fish sang on from the Still album.  And I have picked up one of his orchestral albums.  It is good but as you say it is more background music.

[ytserush]

 

Fuck Wikipedia.  I should just stick with actual sources.  Meta sources suck.

 

That's always been my modus operandi....

[Orbert]

It was mine for a long time.  The concept behind Wikipedia is fine, but I share the academic attitude that it simply is not reliable and should never be cited as a source.

But... in a moment of weakness... I... thought it might be okay.  I feel so ashamed.   

[Orbert]

Edit: I'm listening to Home By The Sea right now, and was thinking about the brief chord after the first chorus (0:56) that Tony is playing - what chord is it? Orbert?

Yeah, I was right the first time.  It's a major 7 thrown in there, low.  So it's your classic E minor plus major 7, but with the 7 low so it's like a flatted tonic, with the tonic (or against it, ha ha), creating the dissonance.  I'm not even sure which inversion you'd call it -- I was never good at that stuff -- but the (minor) 3rd is on top:

[Sketchy]

I haven't heard much of their later stuff, but when they played Home By The Sea in Paris a few years back, it was amazing. It was also amazing a week later in London, but yeah, I love that song so much.

I guess, the low seventh is the gin in the chord.

[The Letter M]

Edit: I'm listening to Home By The Sea right now, and was thinking about the brief chord after the first chorus (0:56) that Tony is playing - what chord is it? Orbert?

Yeah, I was right the first time.  It's a major 7 thrown in there, low.  So it's your classic E minor plus major 7, but with the 7 low so it's like a flatted tonic, with the tonic (or against it, ha ha), creating the dissonance.  I'm not even sure which inversion you'd call it -- I was never good at that stuff -- but the (minor) 3rd is on top:

I believe that would be in 2nd Inversion. Interesting chord! Gotta love the stuff that Tony Banks always comes up with!

-Marc.

[Zydar]

Edit: I'm listening to Home By The Sea right now, and was thinking about the brief chord after the first chorus (0:56) that Tony is playing - what chord is it? Orbert?

Yeah, I was right the first time.  It's a major 7 thrown in there, low.  So it's your classic E minor plus major 7, but with the 7 low so it's like a flatted tonic, with the tonic (or against it, ha ha), creating the dissonance.  I'm not even sure which inversion you'd call it -- I was never good at that stuff -- but the (minor) 3rd is on top:

Wow, thanks!

[KevShmev]

I like the self-titled album.  It's not a favorite, but I like it.  It's solid from start to finish - no real clunkers (yes, I like Illegal Alien) - but it never really kicks your ass with anything particularly awesome (although parts of Mama, Home by the Sea and Silver Rainbow are all great). 

[Orbert]

Edit: I'm listening to Home By The Sea right now, and was thinking about the brief chord after the first chorus (0:56) that Tony is playing - what chord is it? Orbert?

Yeah, I was right the first time.  It's a major 7 thrown in there, low.  So it's your classic E minor plus major 7, but with the 7 low so it's like a flatted tonic, with the tonic (or against it, ha ha), creating the dissonance.  I'm not even sure which inversion you'd call it -- I was never good at that stuff -- but the (minor) 3rd is on top:

I believe that would be in 2nd Inversion. Interesting chord! Gotta love the stuff that Tony Banks always comes up with!

-Marc.

Yeah, he's amazing with that kind of thing.  What gets me sometimes is how he's fine with adding such a degree of detail for something that only appears once in the song.  There are two verses before the first "Sit down, sit down" and this wacky chord is between the first and second verse.  But it's perfect.  It accents the lyric you've just heard, and it fits musically, throws you for a second, and somehow leads you back for another verse all at the same time.  There are little things like that all throughout the Genesis catalogue, and it seems like it's Tony doing it most of the time.

I was thinking it was 2nd inversion, but I wasn't sure.  When you take the root off the bottom and put it on top, that's 1st inversion, and when you take the third and put it on top, that's 2nd inversion.  Is that how it works?  I didn't know if the rules were different when you've got four notes (which would be stupid IMO, but it wouldn't surprise me) or if I remembered the rules correctly in the first place.  When we got to inversions in music theory class, I started daydreaming and/or falling asleep.  To me, it's just the chord; the chord is defined by the notes and that tonality (key, mode, whatever) you're in, not the order.

[FreezingPoint]

I was thinking it was 2nd inversion, but I wasn't sure.  When you take the root off the bottom and put it on top, that's 1st inversion, and when you take the third and put it on top, that's 2nd inversion.  Is that how it works?  I didn't know if the rules were different when you've got four notes (which would be stupid IMO, but it wouldn't surprise me) or if I remembered the rules correctly in the first place.  When we got to inversions in music theory class, I started daydreaming and/or falling asleep.  To me, it's just the chord; the chord is defined by the notes and that tonality (key, mode, whatever) you're in, not the order.

I believe it has to do with what is in the bass, or in this case the lowest note of the chord. 3rd in bass would be first inversion, 5th in bass would be 2nd inversion, and the 7th would be 3rd inversion. The confusing part of learning inversions for me was when we were learning the figured bass for each inversion. Those are different for regular triads and 7th chords. It is kind of fun to analyze these things in familiar songs though. It's a cool addition to the song.

[Orbert]

Be careful.  It definitely has to do with the lowest note in the chord, not the bass.  The bass and the chord can be almost completely independent of each other.  The most interesting music IMO happens when the bass is doing almost everything except roots or fives (or threes).  Or when the chords play against the bass.  As I mentioned upthread, the entire first side is based on Em to D, but the bass stays on E the whole time.  (Or in the case of "Mama" it's D-E, D-E over and over).  The D/E (or Bm7/E) chord is everywhere, but when the D is inverted, you can't name the inversion based on the bass, because E isn't even in the chord.

Inversions can be interesting, I guess, but to me they're only really useful for discussing or clarifying the chord voicing.  To me, there's nothing inherently different about a chord when you invert it.  It's still the same notes; you choose the order or the "shape" of the chord based on where your hands are and what sounds best with whatever else is going on.  If I had to actually think about what inversions I'm using when I comp chords, I'd never get anything done.  For me, it's much easier to just let my fingers figure it out.  If I try to think about it, I just get confused.

[FreezingPoint]

Be careful.  It definitely has to do with the lowest note in the chord, not the bass.  The bass and the chord can be almost completely independent of each other.  The most interesting music IMO happens when the bass is doing almost everything except roots or fives (or threes).  Or when the chords play against the bass.  As I mentioned upthread, the entire first side is based on Em to D, but the bass stays on E the whole time.  (Or in the case of "Mama" it's D-E, D-E over and over).  The D/E (or Bm7/E) chord is everywhere, but when the D is inverted, you can't name the inversion based on the bass, because E isn't even in the chord.

Inversions can be interesting, I guess, but to me they're only really useful for discussing or clarifying the chord voicing.  To me, there's nothing inherently different about a chord when you invert it.  It's still the same notes; you choose the order or the "shape" of the chord based on where your hands are and what sounds best with whatever else is going on.  If I had to actually think about what inversions I'm using when I comp chords, I'd never get anything done.  For me, it's much easier to just let my fingers figure it out.  If I try to think about it, I just get confused.

Absolutely correct. I really should have clarified. When I said bass the first time I ment it in the general SATB 4 voice part writing that we do at school, where each voice is limited to one note, not bass guitar or even the lowest note of the keyboards. My fault.

It really is interesting how the whole first side is based on that Em to D. I wonder if that was a something they decided or just coincidence. I'll have to spin the vinyl of this again sometime soon. Great album, though I prefer the first side to the second.

[Orbert]

Ah, yes, the SATB arranging exercises.  Made me want to kill myself, or at least consider a different major.  I understand the value of mastering the fundamentals before you can dig into the fun stuff, but that didn't make the fundamentals any less painful.

My teachers were always marking me down for arranging things "wrong".  Some said that it was creative, different, whatever, but still wrong, based on the standard choral voicing rules or whatever they were.  I thought they sounded cool, and why was it so damned important to do it the way it's been done for 400 years or whatever?  Do we really learn a craft only to learn how they've done it for 400 years, not how to do it in new ways?  How "creative" is that?

[Orbert]

Genesis: Invisible Touch (1986)



Tony Banks - Keyboards, Background Vocals
Phil Collins - Lead Vocals, Drums, Percussion
Mike Rutherford -  Guitar, Bass, Background Vocals

Invisible Touch
Tonight, Tonight, Tonight
Land of Confusion
In Too Deep
Anything She Does
Domino
  Part 1: In the Glow of the Night
  Part 2: The Last Domino
Throwing It All Away
The Brazilian

----------

It had been three years since the last Genesis album, and after this, it would be another five before the next one.  Genesis was officially a side project, something Phil found time for between solo albums and tours and playing on or producing half the albums released in the 80's, something Mike did when not busy with Mike + The Mechanics, and something which Tony always came back to even if he amused himself in between with solo albums and movie soundtracks that nobody bought.

But Genesis was not your ordinary side project; they were also a supergroup.  They had Phil Collins, whose latest album won the Grammy for Pop Album of the Year and had four hit singles.  They had Mike Somebody from Mike + The Mechanics, whose debut album also had multiple hits, including "All I Need is a Miracle", "Taken In" and that one song which nobody remembers the name of but which isn't "Can You Hear Me Running?"  And they had that one guy on keyboards who was in Peter Gabriel's old band, like ten years ago.

And because they were a supergroup, when Genesis finally got back together in 1986, they created an album which went quadruple platinum in the U.K. and sextuple platinum in the U.S.  Five of its eight tracks made Top 5 in the U.S., including the title track which went to Number 1, the only time Genesis has had a Number 1 hit in the U.S.  Invisible Touch starts off with its title track with its pop hook and never looks back.  The poppiest Genesis of all was also their most commercially successful, and that is probably not a coincidence.

Sure, there were a few minor nods to their prog roots.  The album version of "Tonight, Tonight, Tonight" is nine minutes and has a long instrumental break.  But the break is completely pointless, has no melody, and while it does a great buildup to lead back into the refrain, upon reflection it did nothing to earn that buildup.  There is the two-part suite "Domino" with its wonderful rubato break between the parts, but other than that, it's just two straightforward 4/4 pop songs linked together.  Wait, there's an instrumental!  A rarity on any Genesis album.  But while it's catchy, it's basically a single idea fleshed out into a theme-and-variations bit, and which fades out at the end because, after several repeats, they apparently couldn't think of anything else to do with it.

And then the album ends.  At 42:51, it is one of the shortest Genesis albums of all.  There were three songs recorded during the Invisible Touch sessions which didn't make the album, including another (IMO superior) instrumental, but a good pop album does not overstay its welcome.

Tony once said that the goal of Genesis had always been to get their music played on the radio, they just took this long to figure out how to do it.  The answer lay in adjusting their understanding of what "good" music is.  They used to write carefully structured pieces with classical influences, or multi-movement suites with flute solos and brilliant interplay between the guitars and keyboards.  They wrote songs based on fables and myths and figures from English history.  They wrote story-songs about heroes and tragic figures.  But the general public, the masses who buy your albums and make you rich pop superstars, don't want any of that.  They want short, catchy songs with clever lyrics which don't even have to make sense as long as they sound good and evoke love and desire and pain and love and lust and heartbreak and love.

And they did it.  Genesis channelled their immense musical talents into the best pop made in the 80's.  Over half the album in the Top 5.  Sold-out stadiums.  15 million copies sold worldwide.  They were huge, even bigger than the individuals who made up this new supergroup.

This is good music.  It's well-written, well-played, well-produced, and still far better than most other music made in the 80's.  It just isn't what most longtime Genesis fans liked, because if they liked pop music, they wouldn't have been listening to Genesis when it was brilliantly structured story-songs about tragic heroes.  And it didn't take long for them to figure out that the bones Genesis tossed to their old prog fans had no meat on them.  But this was a new band, and prog fans needed to get with the times.

----------

Upon relistening to Invisible Touch for this writeup (three times!) I found that the title track didn't repulse me as much as it used to.  Nor did "Land of Confusion".  I don't know whether that's because I've mellowed in my old age, or because I now take several medications related to my old age, but both of those songs used to really bug me, and neither of them were quite as bad as I'd thought.  But because nothing in life is free, I found that "Anything She Does" still annoys me as much as it used to, maybe even moreso.  Phil's frantic beat and manic singing are embarassing.  There are no horns on this album, but Tony's keyboard patch clearly evokes horns.  Mike is awesome as always, but that's about it.  And as I grasped for the vestiges of prog which I thought I'd recalled in "Tonight, Tonight, Tonight" and "Domino" I came up empty.  A long break doesn't make a song prog, nor does linking two 4/4 songs together with a dramatic bridge.  And "The Brazilian" is kinda cool, and I know a lot of people like it, but it feels like it takes too long to get going, then doesn't really go anywhere.  And it can't be insignificant that it was placed last on the album.

[Lolzeez]

Hate this album. NEXT.

[Unlegit]

Guilty pleasure: I love the title track. 

[Orbert]

Hate this album. NEXT.

Man, I wanted so badly to just write something like that and move on, too.  But I had to be fair and give it a chance, and I had to find something to say about it.  I know my writeup didn't exactly come out unbiased, but I did try to say some nice things about it.