Author Topic: Genesis Discography  (Read 55035 times)

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Offline Nel

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Re: Genesis: ...and then there were three... (1978)
« Reply #280 on: December 05, 2012, 06:13:04 PM »
Well, at the very least it is a very nice sunset picture. Actually might have been really pretty to just take out the dudes and the light trails and left it as a sunset.
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Offline snowdog

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Re: Genesis: ...and then there were three... (1978)
« Reply #281 on: December 05, 2012, 09:19:30 PM »
In regards to the record label having some influence I would say that is true.  The Producer of the album did not want Follow You Follow Me on it as he didn't care for it.  The band played it for the record company and they said "That's a hit!" and it got put on the record.

Overall I like the album but it just doesn't look too good with the studio albums that it is book-ended by.  W&W and Duke are just so strong that this one isn't too good by comparison.  I think this is one of those albums I need to be in the mood to listen to.  While I enjoy a lot of the songs, I also find times when I don't want to listen to them. 

Ballad of Big was probably my least favorite at one point but I don't mind it now.  I get a bit of an ELP vibe from it.  Maybe it is the lyrics reminding me of The Sheriff or Benny the Bouncer.  My favorites on the album are Down And Out, Undertow, Burning Rope, The Lady Lies, and Say It's Alright Joe.  The latter being one that took a long time to grow on me but I really enjoy it now.

Offline splent

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Re: Genesis: ...and then there were three... (1978)
« Reply #282 on: December 05, 2012, 09:51:00 PM »
I know I'm jumping in here but I love Down and Out and Deep In the Motherlode.

Say It's Alright Joe definitely gives hints as far as the sound the band was going to, from that opening synth chord (which Tony used through at least Invisible Touch). 

And is it bad that I enjoy Scenes from a Night's Dream? 
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Offline Orbert

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Re: Genesis: ...and then there were three... (1978)
« Reply #283 on: December 05, 2012, 10:52:01 PM »
Splent!  Feel free to jump in whenever you want.  The water's fine.

"Scenes from a Night's Dream" seems like it was meant to be a throwback to the whimsical story-songs they used to do, and it's cute, but something about it always bothered me.  I never did figure out what.  It's not a horrible song or anything, and it has that great beat, but it just doesn't work for me.

My favorite part of "Say It's Alright, Joe" is all the stuff they do during the fadeout.  It's trippy.

Offline Sketchy

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Re: Genesis: ...and then there were three... (1978)
« Reply #284 on: December 06, 2012, 06:54:16 AM »
I've always loved Down And Out. It's really unstable and has a bloody epic synth solo. I like the whole album, but not as much as all the Hackett era things, and I rarely listen to it, but I enjoy it when I do. Follow You, Follow Me is pretty nice too. It's not their best, but it's a nice song.
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Offline Orbert

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Genesis: Duke (1980)
« Reply #285 on: December 08, 2012, 10:40:49 PM »
Genesis: Duke (1980)



Tony Banks - Keyboards, 12-String Guitar, Background Vocals
Phil Collins - Vocals, Drums, Percussion, Drum Machine
Mike Rutherford -  Basses, Guitars, Background Vocals


Behind the Lines  (Banks, Collins, Rutherford)
Duchess  (Banks, Collins, Rutherford)
Guide Vocal  (Banks)
Man of Our Times  (Rutherford)
Misunderstanding  (Collins)
Heathaze  (Banks)
Turn It On Again  (Banks, Collins, Rutherford)
Alone Tonight  (Rutherford)
Cul-De-Sac  (Banks)
Please Don't Ask  (Collins)
Duke's Travels  (Banks, Collins, Rutherford)
Duke's End  (Banks, Collins, Rutherford)

----------

After the ...and then there were three... tour, Phil's (first) marriage was falling apart, so he took an official leave from the band to try to save it.  During this time, Tony and Mike both released their first solo albums, A Curious Feeling and Smallcreep's Day, respectively.  Although Tony would go on to create more solo albums, form various bands and other partnerships, and even compose film scores and orchestral music, A Curious Feeling is still regarded as one of his best works.  Much of it sounds not unlike Genesis during this time, primarily because he uses a lot of the same keyboards and keyboard patches.  Mike's solo catalogue (outside his work with Mike + The Mechanics) is less extensive, consisting only of Smallcreep's Day and Acting Very Strange, but his first outing is considered the better of the two.

Phil eventually lost the fight to save his marriage.  Tony and Mike were still finishing up their solo albums, so Phil took some time to work on his first solo album as well, Face Value.  When Genesis reconvened in 1979, they were the same three people, but a different band.  For one thing, Phil had worked out a lot of his emotional issues while writing Face Value, and during this process, he had become a more proflic songwriter, much more an equal to Tony and Mike, who had always been the stronger writers within the band.

Because each of them had spent most of their recent compositions on their solo albums, they came to group with very little already written, just a few songs and ideas apiece.  This meant that the music for Duke was more of a group effort, and it shows.  Duke is regarded by most Genesis fans as one of their best albums.  Many staunch Peter Gabriel supporters and latter-day Genesis detractors even admit that this is a very strong album.  The progressive elements which had been all but lost on ...and then there were three... were back.  Still somewhat stripped down, and not as evident as during the Gabriel era, but definitely present.

They ended up with a 30-minute piece of music in six movements, six more songs, and two which didn't make the final cut (but which would appear as B-sides of singles from this album).  The "Duke Suite" consisted of "Behind the Lines", "Duchess", "Guide Vocal", "Turn It On Again", "Duke's Travels", and "Duke's End".  The original idea was to have the suite in its entirety on Side One of the LP and the remaining songs on Side Two.  Fearing the inevitable comparisons to their earlier epic "Supper's Ready", they decided to break up the suite, opening the album with the first three pieces, opening Side Two with "Turn It On Again", and closing the album with the last two pieces.  The other songs were arranged so that they could loosely fit into a larger narrative following the outline of the "Duke" story, but they are not part of the original story concept.

This arrangement also meant that for the fourth time in eight albums, the album was "bookended" -- musical themes which opened the album reappear at (or near) the end.  "Aisle of Plenty" from Selling England by the Pound is a reprise of "Dancing with the Moonlit Knight".  "Los Endos" from A Trick of the Tail brings back riffs from "Dance on a Volcano", "Squonk", and "It's Yourself" (which did not appear on the album).  "...In That Quiet Earth" from Wind & Wuthering ends with the riff from "Eleventh Earl of Mar" which opens the album.  Also, and probably not entirely a coincidence, each of these reprises follows an instrumental or extended instrumental part of a song.

The "Duke Suite" was played in its original form (the six parts strung together) during the ensuing tour.  According to Phil's spoken intro, "Duke"'s name is Albert.

"Turn It On Again" started with one of Mike's riffs, worked out on guitar, but it was originally much slower, with more of a heavy, driving beat to it.  (Think "I Can't Dance" but in 13).  The others liked the riff, but had trouble working with it, and Phil suggested that they speed it up.  This allowed him to add a standard 4/4 backbeat rhythm, with an extra beat every three measures, making the song both simpler and deceptively complex at the same time.

"Cul-De-Sac" is something like a younger sibling to "Firth of Fifth".  After a single sung line by Phil, Tony breaks into an extended piano solo which serves as an introduction to song proper.  It's not as long, and not on an acoustic grand piano, but the parallels are still pretty clear.

Other Notes:

"Man of Our Times" contains, I think, Phil's heaviest drumming in Genesis to date.  Getting his aggressions out on "In the Air Tonight" (from his Face Value) allowed him to finally find his voice on the drums, so to speak.

"Heathaze" is one of my favorite Genesis songs, an absolutely sublime, understated (and underrated) song by Tony.  But what catches my ear every time is Mike's fretless bass, which is phenomenal.

The two songs which were not included on Duke were "Evidence of Autumn" and "Open Door".  I like "Open Door" a lot, and "Evidence of Autumn" isn't bad either, if a bit cheesier, but they're both mellow songs, and between Phil's heartache songs, Tony's "Heathaze" and Mike's "Alone Tonight", the album was already leaning pretty heavily toward the mellow side.  Overall, it made sense to cut them.  What remains is a much more balanced album which starts and ends with strong, upbeat songs.  "Evidence of Autumn" became the B-side to "Misunderstanding" and "Open Door" was the B-side to "Duchess".

This album constantly fights it out with the two 1976 albums for my favorite Genesis album.  It usually wins.  After getting my first CD player for my birthday in 1982, this was the first CD I bought.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2015, 05:43:08 PM by Orbert »

Offline Nel

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Re: Genesis: Duke (1980)
« Reply #286 on: December 08, 2012, 11:11:03 PM »
Duchess is one of my favorite Genesis songs. It takes a bit too long to get to the vocals, but I've always enjoyed the vocal melody and the story it was telling. Also enjoy Guide Vocal, Misunderstanding, Heathaze (second favorite on the album), and Turn It On Again. I'm pretty indifferent to the rest of the songs on the album though. I never knew that some of those tracks formed a suite, though. I wonder if I'd enjoy those other songs more if I heard the suite as one seamless song. And finally the cover art. Not sure how I feel about it, even years later.  :lol I mean, it beats ATTW3, but I like the "classical" looking drawings Genesis had on a few of their 70s albums. Duke's looks like it was ripped straight from a newspaper comic. Though I suppose that was appropriate with the changing sound. Personally, I think the 80s Genesis albums have terrible cover art for the most part. It's the music that really matters, but I'm an album-collecting weirdo, so yeah.  :P
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Offline The Letter M

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Re: Genesis: Duke (1980)
« Reply #287 on: December 08, 2012, 11:33:48 PM »
Duke is the end of a great line of Genesis albums, and the songs definitely don't disappoint... yes, even the sappy love ballads. I actually (still) quite like "Misunderstanding"! Of course, the highlights of the album are the opening suite of "Behind The Lines"/"Duchess"/"Guide Vocal" and the closing duet of "Duke's Travels"/"Duke's End". Epic groups of songs, full of wonderful playing and great singing from Phil! This album really shows Phil at his most confident up to this point. Now 4 albums out from Peter Gabriel, and after getting a hit single on the previous album, the band had a lot to show and prove, and wouldn't you know it, the band had a couple hits and singles on this album! They were slowly rising in fame and recognition, but the quality of the music didn't diminish from ATTWT - it got HIGHER! It's a shame the caliber of music didn't continue to rise through Abacab and Genesis, although both albums have their moments and good songs, they're full of mediocrity.

Fortunately, this is not the case with Duke, as every song ranges from good to great, and even greater than that! This has been, and always will be, a favorite of mine.

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Offline Sketchy

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Re: Genesis: Duke (1980)
« Reply #288 on: December 09, 2012, 04:01:48 AM »
Duke is pretty good, I've not heard it in a long time, but I really like the stuff from the main suite.
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Offline Jaq

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Re: Genesis: Duke (1980)
« Reply #289 on: December 09, 2012, 11:45:14 AM »
The direction that Genesis had headed towards with ATTWT finds itself on Duke, in stunning fashion. The pop songs are far better at being pop songs, there are moments of prog even in the non-suite songs, and the suite itself pulls off the neat trick of being both a bit of prog and also, in Turn It On Again, somewhat able to be commercial. I agree 100% with the decision to split the suite up across the album; having heard the Duke tour bootlegs where they played it in order, it actually loses something in order, and would have fared badly in comparison to Supper's Ready. Spread out across the album, it becomes the unifying factor musically, and with the choice to split it up, you end up with one of the sheer, most stunning moments in the band's history, when Guide Vocal has its reprise in Duke's Travels. That simply works far better with the suite split up, because you're really not expecting it the first time you hear it, and it floors you with its execution. The first three parts are probably the best three track run in the band's history.

Non suite songs are pretty good too; I always liked Man of Our Times with it's massive, driving beat and Phil's thunderous drumming. Duke is my favorite album for Phil's drumming, with some fantastic playing all the way across the album. Heathaze is a perfectly lovely song, and I always loved how Cul-De-Sac managed to be a prog epic in around five minutes. Of the more pop songs, the obvious champion is Misunderstanding, but there's nothing wrong with either Alone Tonight or Please Don't Ask. The next few albums found Genesis to be a bit more hit and miss, though I suspect I have more love for Abacab and Genesis than a lot of their fan base do, but Duke is far and away the best album the trio version of the band ever did.
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Offline DebraKadabra

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Re: Genesis: Duke (1980)
« Reply #290 on: December 10, 2012, 12:07:26 PM »
Duke is regarded by most Genesis fans as one of their best albums.  Many staunch Peter Gabriel supporters and latter-day Genesis detractors even admit that this is a very strong album.

Um... I must be an aberration then, since I think that a LOT of the stuff on Duke just did not age well at all.

Offline KevShmev

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Re: Genesis: Duke (1980)
« Reply #291 on: December 10, 2012, 12:13:34 PM »
I am kind of with ya, Debra. I like Duke, but I don't love it.  It is a good listen from start to finish, but the "wow!" moments are few and far between. 

And I am not sure about most Genesis fans considering it one of their best albums.  It is their 8th highest ranked studio album at both progarchives (and only .01 than ATTWT...) and Rate Your Music.  And that sounds about right (although I'd put it ahead of Trespass).  Again, I like it, but it isn't on the same planet as anything from the Foxtrot through Wind & Wuthering run.  IMO, of course. :)

Offline Orbert

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Re: Genesis: Duke (1980)
« Reply #292 on: December 10, 2012, 05:28:40 PM »
That's genuinely surprising to me.  Maybe it's the classic case of the progheads finding it too pop, and the popheads getting turned off by the progness.  Still, it's weird because most of my friends, both progheads and popheads, consider this one of their best, and I guess I thought it was a pretty fair sampling.

Offline jammindude

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Re: Genesis: Duke (1980)
« Reply #293 on: December 10, 2012, 06:01:17 PM »
That's genuinely surprising to me.  Maybe it's the classic case of the progheads finding it too pop, and the popheads getting turned off by the progness.  Still, it's weird because most of my friends, both progheads and popheads, consider this one of their best, and I guess I thought it was a pretty fair sampling.

I was a bit surprised to see people claiming it as a middle of the road album.   When we had a poll at another DT fan related site, I believe it finished well into the top 5.
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Offline Orbert

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Re: Genesis: Duke (1980)
« Reply #294 on: December 10, 2012, 08:36:02 PM »
That's what I would've figured.  Top 5 easily.

Offline Orbert

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Genesis: Abacab (1981)
« Reply #295 on: December 15, 2012, 06:23:50 PM »
Genesis: Abacab (1981)



Tony Banks - Keyboards
Phil Collins - Vocals, Drums, Percussion, Drum Machine
Mike Rutherford -  Basses, Guitars

----------

For their follow-up to Duke, Genesis wrote an album's worth of material, then threw it all away.  According to Mike, they had become caricatures of themselves.  They made a decision, as a group, to not use anything that sounded like anything they'd done before.  It was a deliberate, calculated move to break away from their roots and establish their new sound.  This is also where Genesis began to really lose me and, I'm sure, other fans from the old days.

The word "Abacab" itself comes from an early arrangement of the title track.  It had an A section, followed by a B section, a return to the A section, a C section, then returns to the A and B sections.  The song went through a few more changes before they recorded it, and it's not in the "abacab" arrangment in its final form, but the name stuck.  To fit with the abstract meaning of the song and album, they decided to go with an abstract cover, which was originally released in four different color schemes, and later pressings introduced further variations.

"Abacab" -- The album starts off with riff which always reminded me of a synth sound we first heard in "Duke's Travels".  At 4:45 in "Duke's Travels" there's a synth lead built on fourth and fifths; here it became the hook for the title track.  Therefore, I don't think Genesis succeeded in throwing away anything that sounded like anything they'd done before.  To my ears, there was a natural progression.

"No Reply at All" -- Okay, this is definitely different.  Earth, Wind & Fire's horn section had worked with Phil on his solo album Face Value and Phil thought that they could bring something new to the Genesis sound.  As horns had never appeared on a Genesis song before, it was indeed new.  The horns play on this song and also on "Paperlate", which didn't appear on the album.  "Paperlate" was one of three songs cut from the album and released on the EP 3 x 3 ("three by three").  Both "No Reply at All" and "Paperlate" received airplay, but in doing so, seemed to blur the line between Genesis and Phil's solo work.  Phil had had a minor hit with the song "I Missed Again" which also featured the Phoenix Horns.

"Me and Sarah Jane" -- In some ways, this was a throwback to the old Genesis style, if not sound.  It is a very linear song, with no obvious verses or refrain.  Instead, it goes through a series of changes as the song unfolds, finally breaking into a section which sounds like a chorus, but which only appears once and is gone.  In that sense, it's not too different from "Turn It On Again" from the previous album.  "Turn It On Again" has two verses and a chorus, but the second "verse" was added when they felt that the song was too short.  It was originally linear, going through its changes and ending with the repeated "chorus".

"Keep It Dark" -- Again, a different sound from Genesis, but stylistically a throwback to their story-songs of old.

"Dodo/Lurker" -- Side Two of the original LP opened with this pair of songs which were originally part of a four-part suite.  The other two parts were "Naminanu" (mostly instrumental but with Phil repeating the word "Naminanu" over and over) and "Submarine" (an instrumental).  "Naminanu" became the B-side of "Keep It Dark" and "Submarine" became the B-side of "Man on the Corner".

"Who Dunnit?" -- Another song with a lot of strange synthesizer and percussion sounds, this one is catchy, but drives a lot of people, including yours truly, quite insane.  Other than being catchy, it truly has no redeeming value.  (Hey, my writeup, my opinions.)

"Man on the Corner" -- A mellow song, something of a distant relative to "Me and Sarah Jane", only it never breaks loose.  It is quiet and melancholy all the way through, but it has a more standard verse-chorus structure.  This song and "Me and Sarah Jane" both feature a drum machine keeping rhythm throughout, and "Me and Sarah Jane" contains the line "and now I'm standing on the corner".  But that's just a coincidence, right?

"Like It or Not" -- I like this song.  It has a great sound, and even if the lyrics are a bit trite, they're inoffensive.

"Another Record" -- Another one that a lot of people don't seem to like, but which I prefer to some of the aural assaults which take place elsewhere on this album.  I think it's particularly clever that as the song is fading out and the record is ending, the last thing you hear is the refrain "Put another record on".

----------

According to Tony, the title track was originally nearly twice as long.  With 10 tracks on the final album, and another five unused, Genesis considered making Abacab a double album.  This would have been quite a statement that the band was truly born again.  As it turned out, that wasn't really necessary, as it was quite obvious to existing fans that Genesis had turned a corner here.  During the 80's, Genesis was nearly indistinguishable from Phil's solo material to most people, and both were on the air quite a lot.  I eventually gave up trying to convince people that Genesis was not Phil's backup band and that there really was a difference, partly because I wasn't so sure myself anymore.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2015, 05:47:42 PM by Orbert »

Offline DebraKadabra

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Re: Genesis: Abacab (1981)
« Reply #296 on: December 15, 2012, 07:49:02 PM »
Abacab was better than Duke IMO, but... that's not really saying much. :jets:

IMO, the best songs on this one are Keep It Dark, Dodo/Lurker, and "Who Dunnit?" (aka the tracks that weren't overplayed on radio at that time).

Offline Jaq

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Re: Genesis: Abacab (1981)
« Reply #297 on: December 15, 2012, 07:56:57 PM »
I got into Genesis around the time Abacab came out, and Abacab was, in fact, the first Genesis album I ever owned-it was given to me as a Christmas present the year it came out. My relationship with Abacab as the years have gone by has become a bit ambivalent, though not for the reasons that a lot of people have, because I love No Reply At All to death, and in fact think it better than any of Phil's hits using horns. I have no problem with the first side in the least-Abacab is interesting, No Reply is a great pop song, Me and Sarah Jane is gorgeous, especially the last few verses, which are one of the few occasions that Genesis sounds like, well, Genesis on this album, and Keep It Dark has a nice driving beat and a good story. The album loses me on the second side, though I like Dodo/Lurker and Like It Or Not a great deal. While a lot of people get on No Reply At All for it sounding like Phil's solo work, Man on the Corner always sounded like a distant cousin to songs like In The Air Tonight and I Don't Care Anymore, only without the truly cathartic musical climaxes you get with those songs. And I've never liked Another Record, it just bores me. And the less said about Who Dunnit the better.  :biggrin: I must admit to wishing they'd gone with making a four part version of Dodo for the sake of keeping the old prog alive, but Genesis decided to stop really thinking in terms of prog and started defining themselves as Genesis.

Which I submit isn't necessarily a BAD thing; the expectations of prog can sometimes straight jacket you into sounding in ways you may not want to. It's easy for us to look at Genesis and say "oh, I wish they'd stayed prog" but there's no guarantee that if they'd tried that, they would have been GOOD at it. For better or worse, this is the band that Genesis wanted to be, and were, for the rest of the time Phil was the singer. And given how it turned out for them, I can't say they made the wrong choice. But man, a 14 minute Abacab and a four part Dodo would have really interested me.
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Offline DebraKadabra

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Re: Genesis: Abacab (1981)
« Reply #298 on: December 15, 2012, 08:00:36 PM »
But man, a 14 minute Abacab and a four part Dodo would have really interested me.

Same here.

Offline Orbert

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Re: Genesis: Abacab (1981)
« Reply #299 on: December 15, 2012, 08:46:40 PM »
It's easy for us to look at Genesis and say "oh, I wish they'd stayed prog" but there's no guarantee that if they'd tried that, they would have been GOOD at it.

I think that's maybe what happened with the first batch of songs that they completely tossed.  With Duke, there was IMO a good blending of the newer, stripped-down sound and the prog sensibilities.  But when they tried to do it again, they just didn't like the results.  As Mike put it, they'd become caricatures of themselves.  I imagine it sounded like a straight-up pop band trying to sound a bit proggy or more artsy or something, and just failing.  No evidence to support that feeling, but that's my guess.  It's hard to walk that line, and I think Genesis just decided to go all the way with the pop.

For better or worse, this is the band that Genesis wanted to be, and were, for the rest of the time Phil was the singer. And given how it turned out for them, I can't say they made the wrong choice. But man, a 14 minute Abacab and a four part Dodo would have really interested me.

The original running order was "Naminanu"/"Dodo"/"Lurker"/"Submarine".  "Naminanu" stops suddenly, and presumably "Dodo" would've kicked right in after, so there's no real flow there.  You can hear "Submarine" starting as "Lurker" is fading out, but it's an instrumental, and overall feels like an idea that wasn't quite fleshed out.  I do like "Dodo" and "Lurker", and they have a nice flow to them, so it's good that they kept them. 

I have trouble seeing how the parts relate.  I think the overall effect would've been that they put together a four-part suite to try to be proggy, but the results themselves were weak.  It's definitely stronger with just "Dodo" and "Lurker".

Offline Nel

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Re: Genesis: Abacab (1981)
« Reply #300 on: December 15, 2012, 08:51:17 PM »
Don't really like this one. Extensive radio play on classic rock stations has left me numb to the title track, and I do enjoy "Me And Sarah Jane" and "Man On The Corner", but I just can't get into the rest of the album. And appropriately, it has one of the band's worst album covers. Seriously, what is that?

All in all, this is probably in my bottom 5 for Genesis. Which made the next album all the more of a surprise.
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Offline DebraKadabra

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Re: Genesis: Abacab (1981)
« Reply #301 on: December 15, 2012, 09:32:35 PM »
And appropriately, it has one of the band's worst album covers. Seriously, what is that?

 :rollin

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Re: Genesis: Abacab (1981)
« Reply #302 on: December 16, 2012, 03:28:46 AM »
I do enjoy this album. But not as much as the others before it. The title track is fun and Dodo-Lurker is quite good as well. The rest are not too memorable.

Offline The Letter M

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Re: Genesis: Abacab (1981)
« Reply #303 on: December 16, 2012, 10:32:06 AM »
As with many, I originally had some problems with this album - it was quite a bit different than anything they had done before it, and to be honest, anything they'd do after it! It took me a longer time to warm-up to this album than it did the 3 after it, but in recent years, after I got the 2007 box sets, I revisited the album with fresh ears, and found some cool things to enjoy. I still cringe a bit during "Whodunnit?" but otherwise, I have found myself quite enjoying the other 8 tracks on the album!

For me, the top tracks would be "Me And Sarah Jane", "Dodo/Lurker" and "Abacab", with tracks "Man On The Corner", "No Reply At All" and "Keep It Dark" being middle-of-the-road. The rest are okay, with the aforementioned "Whodunnit?" at the bottom.

Side 1 is pretty great, and Side 2 was a bit more experimental. I do wish they had kept the Suite on there, though, and when I learned of it, I made a mix of the four tracks blending together (both when I got the 97 reissues and again in 2007 after I got the boxset remasters). It's a pretty interesting suite and I really like how "Submarine" blends in to the ending of "Lurker".

Indeed, they did have over 70 minutes of music over 14 tracks, and I would've enjoyed them all (to some extent), but I'm glad they made another single album, however, that hadn't stopped me from making my own double-album version with all 14 tracks on it!

Side 1 - 17:05
Abacab
No Reply At All
You Might Recall

Side 2 - 16:53
Me And Sarah Jane
Keep It Dark
Me And Virgil

Side 3 - 19:06
Naminanu
Dodo
Lurker
Submarine
Who Dunnit?

Side 4 - 17:28
Man On The Corner
Paperlate
Like It Or Not
Another Record

-Marc.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2012, 11:55:51 AM by The Letter M »
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Offline The Letter M

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Re: Genesis: Abacab (1981)
« Reply #304 on: December 19, 2012, 06:03:32 PM »
For better or worse, this is the band that Genesis wanted to be, and were, for the rest of the time Phil was the singer. And given how it turned out for them, I can't say they made the wrong choice. But man, a 14 minute Abacab and a four part Dodo would have really interested me.

The original running order was "Naminanu"/"Dodo"/"Lurker"/"Submarine".  "Naminanu" stops suddenly, and presumably "Dodo" would've kicked right in after, so there's no real flow there.  You can hear "Submarine" starting as "Lurker" is fading out, but it's an instrumental, and overall feels like an idea that wasn't quite fleshed out.  I do like "Dodo" and "Lurker", and they have a nice flow to them, so it's good that they kept them. 

I have trouble seeing how the parts relate.  I think the overall effect would've been that they put together a four-part suite to try to be proggy, but the results themselves were weak.  It's definitely stronger with just "Dodo" and "Lurker".

A 14-minute "Abacab"?! I can't see how they would stretch that idea out, and if there were better parts to the song they had cut out, shame on them. But it sounds like they kept the best parts and kept it below half the original length, which I am thankful for.

As for the 4-part suite, I like it a lot, and "Submarine" is a great cool-down after the craziness of "Dodo" and "Lurker".

Also, bump, because there hasn't been much talk about this album, or it's B-Sides, most of which were pretty good! I enjoy "Me And Virgil" and "You Might Recall", and of course, the aforementioned "Naminanu" and "Submarine". The only one I don't really like too much is "Paperlate", mostly because we already have that poppy, horn-laden track in "No Reply At All", which is better than "Paperlate". Still, I put it in my 2-LP mix of Abacab for completeness, but it's on the other end of the album.

Over the course of all the tracks, you really get a sense of great experimentation by the band, with tracks like the 4-part suite, the use of the Earth Wind & Fire horns, and more drum machine tracks, and some interesting instrumental and vocal arrangements throughout. And because this was a very experimental record, there are mixed results and mixed reactions, but they definitely refined their formula a bit more with their next couple of albums (although, many would say those albums still have quite a few 'stinkers' sprinkled across them, but I would disagree, and as you'll find out, I'd take the worst tracks off Genesis and Invisible Touch over the worst tracks on Abacab, meaning "Whodunnit?").

-Marc.
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Offline Jaq

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Re: Genesis: Abacab (1981)
« Reply #305 on: December 19, 2012, 06:10:54 PM »
I loved Me And Virgil, which I first encountered waaaaay back then when it was one of the songs on the now gone fourth side of Three Sides Live, and I still can't figure out why it didn't make an album. But this was back when the songs that wind up today being region specific bonus tracks were B sides for the European and/or Japanese markets, depending on the band, so at the time it made more sense. I know all those songs have turned up in various boxed sets and whatnot, but it'd be neat to have them as bonus tracks for the albums they were B sides on or recorded near.
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Offline The Letter M

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Re: Genesis: Abacab (1981)
« Reply #306 on: December 19, 2012, 06:45:12 PM »
I know all those songs have turned up in various boxed sets and whatnot, but it'd be neat to have them as bonus tracks for the albums they were B sides on or recorded near.

Before the 2007 Remasters, I originally did this with my CD-r mixes and added the bonus tracks to the end of the albums proper, but after the Remasters, I did track list remixes (as I have posted above with Abacab and prior albums in previous posts) that expanded the original album.

I think the 2007 Remasters did it right, despite being only available in the box sets themselves, but they dropped the ball on not including ALL of the CAS B-sides (of which they only included 3 out of 8), as well as not including remixes and edits of tracks, which you can find some of which on the two Archive sets, as well as other compilations, such as the extended versions of various 80's Genesis tracks (including "Mama", "It's Gonna Get Better", "Invisible Touch", "Tonight, Tonight, Tonight", and "Land Of Confusion").

-Marc.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2012, 06:57:04 PM by The Letter M »
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Offline Orbert

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Re: Genesis: Abacab (1981)
« Reply #307 on: December 19, 2012, 09:01:46 PM »
I like "Me and Virgil" too.  It's a cool story-song that goes through some changes and ends up being a real coming-of-age tale.

"Paperlate" is fun and catchy, but I'm sure I'm not alone in feeling that horns are fine for Phil's solo stuff, but not on a Genesis album.  That of course is rather erudite and prog-snobby to say, but I can't help feeling that way.  Phil defends the decision, saying that no one should say that a band must do a certain kind of music, and must not do certain kinds of music.  And I actually agree with him, which is why I feel rather ashamed by my feelings towards both "Paperlate" and "No Reply At All".

Here's the kicker:  I like both of those songs, and I love the horns.  I was an Earth, Wind & Fire fan before I was a Genesis fan.  But I just can't shake the feeling that Genesis songs shouldn't have horns.  It doesn't just feel experimental, like they were trying new things.  It feels like they were trying new things to see how they could sell more records.  Not exactly the same thing.

Anyway, I don't hate Abacab, I just have trouble with some of the tracks.  And that bugs me, too, because I can listen to every Genesis album before it cover to cover.  But I simply cannot listen to "Who Dunnit?"  If they'd dropped "Who Dunnit?" and "Keep It Dark" in favor of "Me and Virgil" and "You Might Recall" I'd feel much better about the album overall.  But it was 1981.  We were all going through some changes, some difficult times.

Offline Jaq

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Re: Genesis: Abacab (1981)
« Reply #308 on: December 19, 2012, 10:21:04 PM »
I didn't mind the horns on No Reply At All...as I said above, I prefer it to the Phil hits with the horns that preceded it. Paperlate, though, felt WAY too contrived for some reason, and I've never really liked it. Strip the horns from No Reply At All, you still have a great pop song. Paperlate felt like it was written to have horns in it, if that makes any sense.
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Offline Orbert

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Re: Genesis: Abacab (1981)
« Reply #309 on: December 19, 2012, 10:33:43 PM »
Wow, I feel the exact opposite.  The horn accents in "Paperlate" could be omitted and the song would sound about the same.  They don't carry any weight.  The horns in "No Reply at All" have actual room allotted for them in the arrangement.  They're part of the hook, integral to the bridge, and at the end, they echo the vocal line.  I always felt like the horns were added to "Paperlate" because they had the horns in the studio anyway, so they might as well put them on more than just the one song.  Then they didn't put it on the album anyway.

Online Zydar

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Re: Genesis: Abacab (1981)
« Reply #310 on: December 20, 2012, 12:26:18 AM »
I basically just listen to No Reply At All and the title track on this album. Don't have much to offer to this discussion :P
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Offline The Letter M

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Re: Genesis: Abacab (1981)
« Reply #311 on: December 20, 2012, 12:41:34 AM »
I basically just listen to No Reply At All and the title track on this album. Don't have much to offer to this discussion :P

So you only listen to the first two tracks... is it because they're the first two, and so once you get past them, you decide to change the album? Or that's all you really care for?

I think it's well done because, being the two better (best?) singles off the album, they lead the album off well with a great 1-2 punch, but because of that, they really put themselves in to the pop-rock category by opening with two strong singles, A-sides in fact, that open the album quite strongly, something that was new for them. Duke opened with a 12-minute suite of 3 songs strung together, And Then There Were Three opened with a couple semi-proggy tunes in the pop-length range, while the two albums prior opened with very proggy, lengthy tracks in the opening 2 slots.

We'll see Genesis pull the "open with 2 singles" trick again in the next album with "Mama" and "That's All", and again with the following two albums (albeit with "Tonight, Tonight, Tonight", the single was a greatly edited shorter version of the song).

-Marc.
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Online Zydar

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Re: Genesis: Abacab (1981)
« Reply #312 on: December 20, 2012, 02:32:43 AM »
I basically just listen to No Reply At All and the title track on this album. Don't have much to offer to this discussion :P

So you only listen to the first two tracks... is it because they're the first two, and so once you get past them, you decide to change the album? Or that's all you really care for?


I've listened to the other tracks as well once or twice, but those are the only two I really care for.
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Offline sirbradford117

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Re: Genesis: Abacab (1981)
« Reply #313 on: December 20, 2012, 08:10:59 PM »
DTF'ers, I've been more of a lurker ( ::) )   here lately that an active poster.  But I need to add my 2 cents here...

Really, honestly, give post-Duke Genesis another listen.   Do NOT listen to it remembering the "prog rock" band that they used to be.  Instead, judge the music for what it is (really, really solid 80's popular music).  If, after that, you find some enjoyment in the music, listen again.  Then the similarities between the two eras will become more apparent.  It's still the same guys writing the music, and touches of their style can be found across their discography.

For example, once you've grown to appreciate "Me and Sarah Jane" a bit more for what it is, listen again and compare it to Tony Banks' compositions on Trick of the Tail and Wuthering.
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Offline Orbert

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Re: Genesis: Abacab (1981)
« Reply #314 on: December 20, 2012, 09:27:00 PM »
I've come to accept that Genesis by this point was really a different band that just happened to have three guys who were in an earlier version of the band.  In interviews, however, they seem to waffle between insisting that they were still Genesis, and saying that the newer version of the band should be judged on its own merits (which to me is pretty much the same as saying that it should be treated as a different band).

For me, the problem isn't that I'm a proghead and cried myself to sleep over the demise of one of my favorite prog bands.  It's that I didn't really care for the band that they'd become.  I just didn't like a lot of the music they made, and some of it I outright disliked.  And yes, I did like a lot of it.  "Abacab" is unlike anything they did in the old days, and I love it.  It's one of my favorite Genesis tunes.  Same with "Turn It On Again".  Those are both tight, catchy songs that had some adventure to them.

But while there is some pop music that I like, I've just never been big on pop music.  I don't find most of it very interesting.  Catchy, sure.  And it can be well-written and well-produced, certainly.  But in general, there has to be something more to it than two verses, a break, another verse, then repeat until fade.

I can't say I understand your example of "Me and Sarah Jane".  To me, that's one of the proggier songs from "Abacab" simply because of its linear structure.  It's not a pop song at all and yes, it would not have been completely out of place on either of the '76 albums, except for the drum machine.

Genesis kept one foot in the prog until the end, always including at least a song or two with a bit more going on than your standard pop tripe.  And the pop they made was good pop, better than a lot of 80's music.  But that's not saying much, really.