Author Topic: Genesis Discography  (Read 55040 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Sketchy

  • DTF.org Member
  • *
  • Posts: 2250
  • Gender: Male
  • More tea is required.
Re: Genesis: Seconds Out (1977)
« Reply #245 on: December 02, 2012, 07:24:15 AM »
I really like Seconds Out. It's the first of the fourpiece era I heard, and I really like the version of Squonk on it. the studio version, as I've already said, is not really powerful enough after the live version.

But yeah, I love the way they go from TLLDOB into TMB closing section, it's such a good join.
This is as exciting as superluminal neutrinos. The sexy thing is that this actually exists :D

Offline Orbert

  • Recovering Musician
  • EZBoard Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 19274
  • Gender: Male
  • In and around the lake
Re: Genesis: Seconds Out (1977)
« Reply #246 on: December 02, 2012, 02:30:52 PM »
I played in band in the 80's, and "Squonk" was our opening song for a long time.  The lead singer and I were huge Genesis fans and the drummer was a pretty big fan, too, and we convinced the others that it would be a great opener.  It wasn't, of course.  I mean, it's a great song, and we did it pretty well, but it didn't make any sense to be playing bars in Northern Michigan and opening with some Genesis song they'd never heard of.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2012, 02:58:06 PM by Orbert »

Offline jcmoorehead

  • Posts: 195
  • Gender: Male
Re: Genesis: Seconds Out (1977)
« Reply #247 on: December 02, 2012, 02:43:28 PM »
Yay I can join in the discussion again, although I did buy A Trick Of The Tail the other day and it's beautiful.

Second's Out I got purely for the live versions of Firth Of Fifth, Suppers Ready and Dance On A Volcano. The other tracks on here I did know of but wasn't amazingly familiar with them but after a few listens I grew to really love and enjoy them all. I think the album represents them well and I, unlike others, do enjoy what Phil brings to the band in a live setting. That being said I haven't heard Peter live and I was brought up with the Pop-Era Genesis rather than the more Prog Leaning, my first live experience of them is watching The Way We Walk.

Offline Orbert

  • Recovering Musician
  • EZBoard Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 19274
  • Gender: Male
  • In and around the lake
Re: Genesis: Seconds Out (1977)
« Reply #248 on: December 02, 2012, 03:03:50 PM »
I thought Phil was amazing on this album and also Three Sides Live.  And it's only natural and proper that he'd grow into his role as the front man and do things his way.  He was an amazingly talented guy, no question, but I think as time went on, he got a bit too comfortable and took it a bit too far sometimes.  If he'd dialed it back, say, 20-30%, it would've been so much better.

Offline ddtonfire

  • Posts: 2175
Re: Genesis: Seconds Out (1977)
« Reply #249 on: December 02, 2012, 05:04:34 PM »
Orbert, are there any specific things you'd wish he'd toned down or done differently? I'm curious.

Offline Orbert

  • Recovering Musician
  • EZBoard Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 19274
  • Gender: Male
  • In and around the lake
Re: Genesis: Seconds Out (1977)
« Reply #250 on: December 02, 2012, 07:40:05 PM »
Well, to put it bluntly, his mouth.  The intro to "Throwing It All Away" is... okay, it's clever.  And if you like that style of singing, then I guess it's pretty cool.  But I really don't, and I actually like the song, but I can't listen to it.  I have no idea how the rest of the song sounds, because I can't get past the first few bars.  But if it's anything like other later Genesis songs, the live version sounds exactly like the studio version anyway.

The ending of "I Can't Dance".  Seriously Phil, just shut up, okay?  "I can't dance.  He can't dance.  He can't dance.  He can dance." (I imagine he's pointing at Chester) "He can dance" (probably pointing at Daryl).

It's like he gets so excited that he just runs his mouth and doesn't realize how completely stupid it sounds.  Maybe most people think it's cool and I'm the only one who doesn't; I don't know.  I always liked Genesis live albums because you get great live versions of the songs with no blabbering in between.  Then The Way We Walk comes out and Phil's running his mouth during the songs, so there's no way to cut it out.  Unfortunately, most of the live versions on The Way We Walk aren't any different from the studio versions otherwise, so maybe Phil's blabbering on just so something will be different.

I only saw Genesis once, on the "Mama Tour", but I've heard bootlegs from pretty much every tour, and Phil is not the storyteller that Peter was.  Also, Peter's stories were out of necessity; they needed time to tune their guitars between songs.  With an army of techs backstage and not nearly the intricate guitar parts anymore, they don't need them anymore.  But Phil tells stories in between songs I suppose because they're part of the Genesis stage show.  His intro to "The Cinema Show" is horrible.  Juliet is a sweet young girl, but she has these enormous breasts.  Romeo loves her enormous breasts, he can't wait to get that enormous brassiere off of her.  Really, Phil?  His story intro to "Duke" is idiotic.  Doesn't ruin the song for me or anything, but it drives me nuts having to sit and listen to him babble his moronic stories when I know they're about to play one of my favorite pieces of music.

It's not all horrible.  I love his intro to "Ripples".  I never understood what the song was about before I heard him introduce it, and now it makes perfect sense and the song has a much deeper meaning.  Same with "Keep It Dark".  I'm still not a big fan of the song, but at least I understand what it's about, now that I've heard Phil explain it.  Telling a story which actually has something to do with the song, or simply explains what it's about, is fine.  The story of Albert, who is apparently the one we know as "Duke", is completely stupid.

It's usually not the songs themselves, but holy shit "Who Dunnit?" is an abomination.  "We know, we know, we know, we know, we don't know, we don't know, we don't know, we don't know yeah we don't know yeah we don't know yeah we don't know yeah we don't know yeah we don't know"  Great lyrics, Phil.  I'm so impressed.

Offline ddtonfire

  • Posts: 2175
Re: Genesis: Seconds Out (1977)
« Reply #251 on: December 02, 2012, 09:57:10 PM »
That's kinda funny because that's something I enjoy about him. He probably really gets caught up in all of it with crowd interaction and stuff (stuff like that was really fun when I saw him a few years ago), but I can definitely see how it comes across as bland and mindless on a recording.

I find "Who Dunnit" a most excellent song when I've had one too many energy drinks. Also, there's a fun little decipherment behind Who Dunnit here: https://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/genesis-who-dunnit-revealed.68556/

But yes, fair enough, I can definitely see where you're coming from.

Offline KevShmev

  • EZBoard Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 41973
  • Gender: Male
Re: Genesis: Seconds Out (1977)
« Reply #252 on: December 02, 2012, 10:59:37 PM »
As much as I love Genesis, I have never much had much inclination to check out most of their live stuff, aside from a few specific tunes, and I don't see that changing any time soon. 

Offline The Letter M

  • Posts: 15562
  • Gender: Male
Re: Genesis: Seconds Out (1977)
« Reply #253 on: December 02, 2012, 11:05:21 PM »
As much as I love Genesis, I have never much had much inclination to check out most of their live stuff, aside from a few specific tunes, and I don't see that changing any time soon.

Probably for the best, especially in their later years, although several tunes pop out in my mind that are greater in the live setting than they were in studio - most of Seconds Out, almost all of Three Sides Live, "Ripples" from Archive 2, as well as "Duke's Travels/Duke's End", and "Fading Lights" from The Way We Walk - the band just really rips on that one live, especially since it's really just the three of them (Phil, Mike and Tony). Probably my favorite moment of TWWW is that song, along with "The Old Medley".

-Marc.
ATTENTION - HAKEN FANS! The HAKEN SURVIVOR 2023 has begun! You can check it out in the Polls/Survivors Forum!!!

Offline LudwigVan

  • Posts: 4777
  • Gender: Male
  • Proglodyte
Re: Genesis: Seconds Out (1977)
« Reply #254 on: December 03, 2012, 08:26:10 AM »
Seconds Out was my introduction to Genesis way back in the late 70s.  It was either my junior or senior year in HS.  Firth of Fifth absolutely floored me.   

When I finally got the studio versions of the albums, I had to get re-adjusted to the music with Peter Gabriel on vocals.   
"There is nothing more difficult than talking about music."
--Camille Saint-Saëns

“All the good music has already been written by people with wigs and stuff.”
--Frank Zappa

Offline Orbert

  • Recovering Musician
  • EZBoard Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 19274
  • Gender: Male
  • In and around the lake
Re: Genesis: Seconds Out (1977)
« Reply #255 on: December 03, 2012, 08:09:06 PM »
As much as I love Genesis, I have never much had much inclination to check out most of their live stuff, aside from a few specific tunes, and I don't see that changing any time soon. 

That's a shame.  Genesis was one of the few bands that I thought really did it right when it came to the live versions of songs.  The entire structure of the song was preserved, the synth patches and guitar patches (??? -- I don't know what you call them) were usually better than the studio sounds, and as I mentioned, they came up with truly excellent codas to end songs which originally faded out.  A lot of their studio tracks are amazing in their intricacy and the way the instruments are layered and interplay, and wisely, these are usually not the songs we hear on the live albums.  The ones we hear live are the ones that benefit most from the live setting.

Up through Three Sides Live, I prefer the live versions of most of the songs to their studio counterparts.  I had Seconds Out first, so there's some bias there, but I was familiar with the studio versions of everything on Genesis Live and Three Sides Lives before I bought them, and I still generally prefer the live versions.  They're super tight and amazing.  The songs really come alive.

The exception is The Way We Walk.  The later material is less interesting to me overall, and in general because the arrangements themselves are so stripped down, the live versions don't really differ much from the originals.

Offline snowdog

  • Posts: 202
Re: Genesis: Seconds Out (1977)
« Reply #256 on: December 04, 2012, 10:15:43 AM »
Yeah I absolutely love live Genesis for pretty much all the reasons you mention Orbert.  The energy of the performances is so much better.  And the drum parts got refined really well, especially in the Gabriel years. 

As for Phil's talking, I do find it a bit annoying.  While I don't care for his story prior to the Cinema Show (and later used for Supper's Ready) I don't find it anymore outlandish than Peter's stories.  Peter had quite a few stories that were inconsequential to the actual songs.  But I know he had to keep the audience entertained as they tuned their instruments.

Second's Out itself is great.  Though I also agree they should have had a 3rd LP on it to include more things.  Plenty of songs from the W&W tour were left off: Eleventh Earl of Mar, One For the Vine, and In That Quiet Earth were played throughout the tour.  Your Own Special Way and Inside Out were played for long periods throughout the tour though I don't know if they were played on the nights used for the recordings of Second's Out.  All in A Mouse's Night was played a few times though not frequently.  And then you've got the leftovers from the TotT tour: Entangled, It/Watcher of the Sky (both appeared on later sets), White Mountain, and Fly On a Windshield.  So there was definitely enough material recorded that they could have used.

The only other complaint I have about Second's out is actually the mix.  My biggest complaint being the bass pedals could be a bit higher in the mix.  But I just have a thing for that so I might be in the minority in that opinion.

Offline Jaq

  • Posts: 4050
  • Gender: Male
  • Favorite song by Europe: Carrie.
Re: Genesis: Seconds Out (1977)
« Reply #257 on: December 04, 2012, 10:24:57 AM »
Having heard the boots from that tour, I agree, a three disc version of Seconds Out would have been flat out amazing, and likely would be not just my favorite prog live album ever but would be running neck in neck with Made In Japan and Live After Death for my favorite live album ever.
The bones of beasts and the bones of kings become dust in the wake of the hymn.
Mighty kingdoms rise, but they all will fall, no more than a breath on the wind.

Offline The Letter M

  • Posts: 15562
  • Gender: Male
Re: Genesis: Seconds Out (1977)
« Reply #258 on: December 04, 2012, 10:43:06 AM »
Having heard the boots from that tour, I agree, a three disc version of Seconds Out would have been flat out amazing, and likely would be not just my favorite prog live album ever but would be running neck in neck with Made In Japan and Live After Death for my favorite live album ever.

Between the 2 set lists of both tours, here's what I would have included in a 3LP set of Seconds Out:

Side 1:
"Squonk"
"One For The Vine"
"Robbery, Assault And Battery"

Side 2:
"All In A Mouse's Night"
"Inside And Out"
"Firth Of Fifth"

Side 3:
"Eleventh Earl Of Mar"
"Entangled"
"...In That Quiet Earth'"
"Afterglow"

Side 4:
"Lamb Stew Medley"-
     "The Lamb Lies Down On Broadway"/
     "Fly On A Windshield"/
     "The Carpet Crawlers"
"I Know What I Like (In Your Wardrobe)"

Side 5:
"Supper's Ready"

Side 6:
"The Cinema Show"
"Dance On A Volcano"
"Drum Duet"
"Los Endos"

Well, tentatively.... I might change my mind later :lol

-Marc.
ATTENTION - HAKEN FANS! The HAKEN SURVIVOR 2023 has begun! You can check it out in the Polls/Survivors Forum!!!

Offline Jaq

  • Posts: 4050
  • Gender: Male
  • Favorite song by Europe: Carrie.
Re: Genesis: Seconds Out (1977)
« Reply #259 on: December 04, 2012, 10:58:32 AM »
I would buy that album. Or failing that, take my bootlegs and make that set list. :D
The bones of beasts and the bones of kings become dust in the wake of the hymn.
Mighty kingdoms rise, but they all will fall, no more than a breath on the wind.

Offline The Letter M

  • Posts: 15562
  • Gender: Male
Re: Genesis: Seconds Out (1977)
« Reply #260 on: December 04, 2012, 11:23:49 AM »
I would buy that album. Or failing that, take my bootlegs and make that set list. :D

LOL Ditto! I kept the last 2 sides the same just for the sake of continuity with the actual album, but I like the opening of the W&W set, so I used that to open with Side 1. Oddly enough, Sides 4 and 5 feature strictly Gabriel-Era material, something I didn't intend but now find interesting! The first LP, Sides 1 & 2, feature some great songs from Trick and Wind, as well as "Firth Of Fifth", a great way to close the first LP. The second LP features the Trick Tour Lamb Stew Medley, which runs about 14 minutes long!

If I rearranged it, I might put Sides 4 & 5 together on a single LP, and move Side 3 to Side 5, just to have the Gabriel-Era stuff on one vinyl. I do like this collection of tracks, though, but I struggled with trying to include "It/Watcher Of The Skies" somewhere in there, but couldn't. I didn't want to include "Lamb/Musical Box" or the aforementioned "It/Watcher" because I wanted to try and not include anything that was featured in Live, even if "Watcher" and "Musical" are just bits of the songs in these cases. Either way, it features all new material not played on the previous live album.

-Marc.
ATTENTION - HAKEN FANS! The HAKEN SURVIVOR 2023 has begun! You can check it out in the Polls/Survivors Forum!!!

Offline tedesco23

  • Posts: 25
Re: Genesis: Seconds Out (1977)
« Reply #261 on: December 04, 2012, 07:57:28 PM »
Here's what's so great about this thread: I really like this era of Genesis, but for some reason, though I have all the studio CDs from this era, I have no live CDs. This thread made me realize how mind-bogglingly stupid this is.

So, rectified. just ordered Seconds Out. Will look forward to its arrival!

Offline Orbert

  • Recovering Musician
  • EZBoard Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 19274
  • Gender: Male
  • In and around the lake
Re: Genesis: Seconds Out (1977)
« Reply #262 on: December 04, 2012, 08:56:55 PM »
Hopefully you won't be disappointed after all of this buildup.  I personally love a good live album, but I know that they don't always work for everybody.

Offline Orbert

  • Recovering Musician
  • EZBoard Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 19274
  • Gender: Male
  • In and around the lake
Genesis: ...and then there were three... (1978)
« Reply #263 on: December 04, 2012, 10:27:50 PM »
Genesis: ...and then there were three... (1978)



Tony Banks - Keyboards
Phil Collins - Vocals, Drums, Percussion
Mike Rutherford -  Basses, Guitars, Bass Pedals


Down and Out  (Banks, Collins, Rutherford)
Undertow  (Banks)
Ballad of Big  (Banks, Collins, Rutherford)
Snowbound  (Rutherford)
Burning Rope  (Banks)
Deep in the Motherlode  (Rutherford)
Many Too Many  (Banks)
Scenes from a Night's Dream  (Banks, Collins)
Say It's Alright, Joe  (Rutherford)
The Lady Lies  (Banks)
Follow You Follow Me  (Banks, Collins, Rutherford)

----------

Originally, there were five members of Genesis, then there were four...

And as the transformation of Genesis from 70's progressive rock band to 80's pop supergroup continued, it was this album which was the first to go Gold in the United States, largely on the strength of their first U.S. single, "Follow You Follow Me".  All three members of Genesis insist that the band had always wanted to write songs which people heard on the radio, it just took them a while to figure out how to do it.

Looking back, each previous album had one or two songs which conceivably could have been singles.  Their first album actually did have two singles, though neither was very popular.  "I Know What I Like (In Your Wardrobe)" from Selling England by the Pound was a minor hit in the U.K.  "Your Own Special Way" got some airplay in the U.S., and the title track from The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway was an FM staple for years, although it was never officially released as a single in the U.S.

But none of that really mattered.  What mattered was that Genesis, the incredible shrinking band, had finally scored a hit single in the U.S.  As the 70's were drawing to a close, and prog was being eclipsed by other genres, Genesis survived because they were able to redirect their considerable musical talent into creating strong, catchy pop songs.

"Follow You Follow Me" is one of the few songs on ...and then there were three... to be credited to all three members.  Tony once again has the most songwriting credits, but Mike is a close second, and as usual, Phil has the fewest.  In interviews, Tony and Mike both are quick to defend Phil from those who would accuse him of leading Genesis down the path from prog to pop.  There are some longer songs on the album, but every song has the standard verse-verse-break-reprise structure.  Because Phil was gaining more confidence as lead singer and front man, people make a correlation between that and the change in Genesis' sound, but it was clearly a band decision to move in a more pop-oriented direction.

Genesis, however, never completely abandoned the prog.  "Down and Out" has a few mood changes to it and is something like "Squonk in 5/4".  "Burning Rope" has an excellent instrumental section that goes through a few changes.  "Deep in the Motherlode" also goes through some changes during its break, before returning (too soon) to the main theme.  One of my favorites (which few others seem to like), "Say It's Alright, Joe", is deceptively complex, going through a series of delusions and daydreams before finally wandering off in a truly beautiful and graceful outro.

After keeping the prog/pop ratio on the high side for a few albums after the departure of Peter Gabriel, it is tempting to cite the departure of Steve Hackett as the turning point in the band's move towards pop and away from prog, but it's just not that simple.  The music scene was changing, both the business and what was popular, and with another member gone, Genesis had to score a hit if they were to survive.  And they did.  "Many Too Many" was also released as a single, though only the U.K.  It didn't fare as well as "Follow You Follow Me" but it showed that Atlantic still had confidence in them.

It may be surprising to some that there's quite a bit of guitar on this album.  One must remember that Mike had always played guitar in Genesis, and is an excellent musician overall.  He was there from the beginning and learned from both Anthony Phillips and Steve Hackett, and his soloing style reflects that.  In terms of sound, the biggest change with ...and then there were three... is that the acoustic guitars are gone.  And that's a shame because both Mike and Tony used to play acoustic guitar in Genesis.  Again, this is evidence that the changing of the band's sound, stripping it down to basic keyboards, guitars, and drums, all but abandoning the acoustic side, was a group decision.

----------

I know I beat that horse pretty hard, about how Phil Collins was not the evil guy who single-handedly turned Genesis from prog to pop, but it seems to be a misconception that I run into everywhere, and it's just not true.  As always, Tony and Mike wrote most of the music, and every song on this album is AABA.  The B section is a little longer and more complex sometimes, but this is a pop album, as was every Genesis album from this point forward, and Phil had very little to do with it.

I still remember when I picked up Wind & Wuthering and heard "Your Own Special Way" because I recognized the song.  I know I'd heard it on the radio.  What I read in interviews later was true; Genesis always had a side to them that wrote shorter, radio-friendly songs.  They just had to figure out how to write a hit, and they finally did it here.  And considering the year, 1978, it was an unusual one.  A synth solo when pretty much every song had a guitar solo.  And no three-part harmonies during the chorus, when that too was pretty much the standard.

Re-listening to this album, I can understand why it's not one of the higher-rated albums in the Genesis catalogue.  The band had been thrown for another loop, and while they came back strong on the commercial side, I think it's fair to say that artistically they played it pretty safe here.  But it does have some good stuff; I consider four of the songs to be as solid as anything else in their catalogue.  And since this was my first Genesis (studio) album, it will always be a special one for me.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2015, 05:30:58 PM by Orbert »

Offline KevShmev

  • EZBoard Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 41973
  • Gender: Male
Re: Genesis: ...and then there were three... (1978)
« Reply #264 on: December 04, 2012, 10:51:08 PM »
I love Down and Out and Deep in the Motherlode.

Undertow, Burning Rope and Many Too Many are all really good, as well.

The rest doesn't do a lot for me.

Offline Jaq

  • Posts: 4050
  • Gender: Male
  • Favorite song by Europe: Carrie.
Re: Genesis: ...and then there were three... (1978)
« Reply #265 on: December 04, 2012, 11:17:06 PM »
As I mentioned earlier in this thread, I bought a ton of Genesis albums with my first paycheck as a full time worker when I got out of school. The summer before that though, I spent a couple of weeks helping my dad, who was doing some carpenter work, and I wound up making a walloping sum of forty dollars doing that. Some of it was spent on books, paperbacks going for about $2.50 at the time, a pile of it was spent on comic books because, hey, I was kind of a nerd...and the rest was spent on Grace Under Pressure by Rush and And Then There Were Three by Genesis. Which is why I have a very soft spot for it in my Genesis lists.

I also have a very soft spot for it because it's a really fucking good album.

Pull far enough back from the Genesis discography so you can take a longer view of it-many people just look at it as being the album they made because Steve Hackett was gone, and it has become retroactively part of the "Phil made Genesis sell out" mythology, so the musical direction is seen as starting on this album-and actually, it's following a similar sort of sonic template to the previous two studio albums. The band began to incorporate more traditional pop structures to their songs, which is really the largest change the band had on this album. Down And Out, Burning Rope, The Lady Lies, Undertow-any one of those songs could have been moved to either Trick or W&W and you wouldn't have blinked. The more pop songs are why it's a bit of a transitional album-you hear what they were aiming for here when Duke came out-but when you look at all of the band's work since Phil took over as vocalist, you actually see a through line where this evolution makes sense. (Play Trick, W&W, ATTWT, and Duke back to back. Trust me, you'll hear it.) It is interesting to note that the most conventional sounding song on the album, the pop ballad Many Too Many, was actually written by Tony Banks.

The highlights for me? Oh, lord. Practically the entire first side-Down and Out, Undertow, and Burning Rope are three of the best songs Genesis ever did. I've always had a soft spot for Scenes From A Night's Dream, which in a lot of ways prefigures a lot of the sound the band had in the early 80s.  Mike Rutherford takes over all the guitar duties with style-his solo on Burning Rope is fairly simple but amazingly dramatic. This is one of the best albums for drumming Phil Collins had-my personal favorite is coming up next-and his drum sound is amazing on this album. Tony Banks remains Tony Banks.

Given what was going on in prog in 1978-Yes and ELP in particular were struggling with figuring out where prog needed to go-Genesis probably had the best answer you could give. Write good, interesting, cleverly arranged songs, and let their craft and ability shine through. It's occasionally looking for where it wants to go-they've not quite mastered the pop song knack totally, though that's coming with Duke-but it's a very good album by a band that was hitting a stride.
The bones of beasts and the bones of kings become dust in the wake of the hymn.
Mighty kingdoms rise, but they all will fall, no more than a breath on the wind.

Offline Lolzeez

  • DTF.org Member
  • *
  • Posts: 4865
  • Gender: Male
Re: Genesis: ...and then there were three... (1978)
« Reply #266 on: December 05, 2012, 02:43:47 AM »
Burning Rope is one of my favorite songs from the Collins era.

Offline jcmoorehead

  • Posts: 195
  • Gender: Male
Re: Genesis: ...and then there were three... (1978)
« Reply #267 on: December 05, 2012, 03:32:19 AM »
This is the part where I phase out of the discussion again having not got any of the albums from here up until We Can't Dance, but I've heard a good chunk of the Pop Genesis output and I thought I'd weigh in on the whole Phil ruined Genesis thing.

I suppose people tend to view the singer as the default leader of the band and the one who makes most decisions, even though we know this to be untrue and I think many people deep down know it, the lead singer tends to be a figurehead and therefore an easy target. With Phil, well for some reason he just is a target, I don't quite understand why but there does seem to be a thing about people disliking Phil Collins and also the fact that he had the biggest Solo career out of the three probably contributes to this perception that he is the one that changed the direction of Genesis.

Again the others had solo careers, Mike had Mike & The Mechanics which scored massive hits and had a more pop sound, Banks I don't actually know about his solo output but Phil was the biggest of the lot and a major presence in the 80s so he just seems to be the easiest one to target.

Offline The Letter M

  • Posts: 15562
  • Gender: Male
Re: Genesis: ...and then there were three... (1978)
« Reply #268 on: December 05, 2012, 06:35:21 AM »
I've come to discover, over the years, that THIS version of the band, at this point, still had strengths and direction more so than a band that just lost Peter Gabriel. Not to say Steve Hackett didn't write with Tony, Mike and Phil, but you could tell his ideas were used less and less as the years went by, and by 1977, it felt like Tony and Mike had dominated, so when Steve left, it was pretty much just filling in the gap that both Tony and Mike could definitively do. Sure there's no acoustic guitar, no whimsical tunes, but now the other three had a chance to write some of the things that they might not have dared to include on a Genesis album before.

Some might say there's too many ballads, or too many plodding pop tunes, and not enough prog on this album, but in the transition from Trick/Wind and going towards Duke, this is a great album. I'll say, it could have been worse, but even the non-album tracks are good (something that can't be said for many of Genesis' non-album B-sides). I think it's a great collection of songs, and as many have said, there are strong ones: Down And Out, Undertow, Deep In The Motherlode, The Lady Lies, Many Too Many, Burning Rope....actually, come to think of it, the only songs I don't really care for are just Snowbound and Ballad Of Big. Replace those two with Vancouver and The Day The Light Went Out. Or, you can do what I did and just throw them into the track list anyway.

This isn't a BAD album, let alone a horrible album. The songs are just different, and some of them are even stronger than what would come, but I would say that it's on level with Duke in most areas (although I love Duke more, but more on that when we get there). This album and Duke are the last two of a great era of Genesis, for me, and once we get past that, it's REALLY hit or miss. If you miss classic Genesis after Steve Hackett and Peter Gabriel left, definitely don't stop with Trick/Wind - get this album, AND Duke, and you won't be disappointed (if you keep an open mind/ear and lower your expectations a bit).

-Marc.
ATTENTION - HAKEN FANS! The HAKEN SURVIVOR 2023 has begun! You can check it out in the Polls/Survivors Forum!!!

Offline jammindude

  • Posts: 15317
  • Gender: Male
Re: Genesis: ...and then there were three... (1978)
« Reply #269 on: December 05, 2012, 07:37:07 AM »
This is the part where I phase out of the discussion again having not got any of the albums from here up until We Can't Dance, but I've heard a good chunk of the Pop Genesis output and I thought I'd weigh in on the whole Phil ruined Genesis thing.

I suppose people tend to view the singer as the default leader of the band and the one who makes most decisions, even though we know this to be untrue and I think many people deep down know it, the lead singer tends to be a figurehead and therefore an easy target. With Phil, well for some reason he just is a target, I don't quite understand why but there does seem to be a thing about people disliking Phil Collins and also the fact that he had the biggest Solo career out of the three probably contributes to this perception that he is the one that changed the direction of Genesis.

Again the others had solo careers, Mike had Mike & The Mechanics which scored massive hits and had a more pop sound, Banks I don't actually know about his solo output but Phil was the biggest of the lot and a major presence in the 80s so he just seems to be the easiest one to target.

Timing is huge on this issue.   Because most people acknowledge that Phil's solo stuff took a similar nose dive along a similar timeline that Genesis did...thus, raising more eyebrows that Phil had something to do with it.   

Most prog heads that like the crossover of Duke, also like Phil's solo debut...but after that it gets pretty sketchy. 

I'm coming to realize that a) Tony managed to come up with a lot of the same sounds that he always came up with...so he really kept Genesis sounding like Genesis and b) It's really the lyrics that changed more than anything else...when they started writing about personal relationships instead of fantasy stories, their popularity soared.   
"Better the pride that resides in a citizen of the world.
Than the pride that divides when a colorful rag is unfurled." - Neil Peart

The Jammin Dude Show - https://www.youtube.com/user/jammindude

Offline Orbert

  • Recovering Musician
  • EZBoard Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 19274
  • Gender: Male
  • In and around the lake
Re: Genesis: ...and then there were three... (1978)
« Reply #270 on: December 05, 2012, 07:58:22 AM »
In Tony's 1978 interview in Keyboard magazine, he mentioned that.  His song "Many Too Many" (which was a single in the U.K. but not in the U.S.) was "a song about traditional things such as love and kisses".  It's hard to tell, but he seemed just a little bit embarassed by that, like he was aware that they were changing, and wasn't 100% comfortable with it, but was learning how to work with it.

He said that "Burning Rope" used to be longer.  It's seven minutes now, but used to be over 11.  They had to cut it down, as they didn't think the record company would be happy with a song that long.  So the label did have some influence on the content of the album.  I wish I could find the magazine now (I know I still have it somewhere, in a box in the basement probably), but I think the wording here is pretty close.  I seem to recall that they weren't directly told what to do, or not to do, but made some decisions based on what they thought would fly, with the suits and perhaps with the public as well.  They knew how important it was that this album succeed.

Tony said that the bits he'd cut out would probably show up later.  Being new to Genesis, I wasn't sure what he meant by that.  I was hoping that it meant that when they played the song live, they'd play the "long version" including all the parts they'd cut out, but bootlegs from this tour indicate otherwise.  Once they've recorded a song, that's the arrangement.  They'll do a few minor things that all bands do with live versions, and as mentioned upthread they'll work up a cool ending if necessary, but that's it.  What I think he meant was that he has all these "bits" of music written and the stuff he cut out of "Burning Rope" ended up being used in other songs later.

I've never been a prolific songwriter (mostly because the few I've written aren't very good), but I tend to think of songs as singular entities.  I come up with verses, choruses, and figure out instrumental stuff to flesh it out and hopefully make it more interesting.  Guys like Tony have "bits" of music, probably ranging from just a melody or an idea to entire instrumental sections, and when it's time to write an album, they get pieced together into songs.  Obviously it's not simply random; sections must fit together, make sense logically and musically.  I specifically remember that the "song" part of "Dance on a Volcano" and the "dance" part (the instrumental) were completely separate compositions, possibly from different writers, but they tried putting them together simply because they were both in seven, and they liked the result.

Anyway, I just thought I'd share that, since I was thinking about "Burning Rope" and what Tony had said about it, and that got me to thinking more about that interview, which came out shortly after this album.

Offline Jaq

  • Posts: 4050
  • Gender: Male
  • Favorite song by Europe: Carrie.
Re: Genesis: ...and then there were three... (1978)
« Reply #271 on: December 05, 2012, 08:11:45 AM »
Funny, I've never really listened to Burning Rope and thought "how would this sound if it were longer?" It's already weighted heavily towards instrumental sections in terms of length-the intro and instrumental break make up a great deal of the song, it has a great structure and works well as it is. This is a case where less was definitely more, if you ask me. I suspect the comment about how the label wouldn't want an 11 minute long song was probably more a comment on the climate musically at the time, as prog rockers were rapidly turning into dinosaurs. Which is really odd when you consider the same label released a live album by the band that had only four songs on the second album!
The bones of beasts and the bones of kings become dust in the wake of the hymn.
Mighty kingdoms rise, but they all will fall, no more than a breath on the wind.

Offline Orbert

  • Recovering Musician
  • EZBoard Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 19274
  • Gender: Male
  • In and around the lake
Re: Genesis: ...and then there were three... (1978)
« Reply #272 on: December 05, 2012, 10:10:13 AM »
Well, Yes were pretty huge and enjoyed a great deal of "hands off" from Atlantic during that time.  Genesis wasn't huge yet; they had had some success but had yet to prove themselves a truly bankable act.  I agree that their decision to trim "Burning Rope" down to what we have now was probably a good decision, but I would have loved another mini-epic like "One for the Vine".  Also, while I love Mike's guitar solo in "Burning Rope" and the way it jumps in there rather suddenly, when I read that comment from Tony, it seemed to me that that was probably one of the cuts they'd made, and I wondered what originally came before that solo, or if the solo was longer.

Offline Nel

  • Humorless Bore
  • Posts: 2453
  • Gender: Male
Re: Genesis: ...and then there were three... (1978)
« Reply #273 on: December 05, 2012, 10:15:44 AM »
Some might say there's too many ballads, or too many plodding pop tunes, and not enough prog on this album...

Yep. I do.  ;)

Well, not the prog thing. I didn't care about that. I listened to this along with Duke the other day, and I still don't like it. As I said earlier, the album sounds like an insanely awkward transition between what they were and what they would be. "Deep In The Motherlode" is a fantastic song, though. I've also got a soft spot for "Follow You, Follow Me", because I heard it so much as a kid. Otherwise, the rest of the music here just isn't very memorable, and isn't very good.

And the album cover always looked like someone gave up halfway through creating it.  :lol
Hire me. I'm talentless but malleable.

Offline The Letter M

  • Posts: 15562
  • Gender: Male
Re: Genesis: ...and then there were three... (1978)
« Reply #274 on: December 05, 2012, 11:19:16 AM »
And the album cover always looked like someone gave up halfway through creating it.  :lol

I know, right?! I mean, look at the logo... I've always wondered about their decision to put that green stuff over half of the G, par the E, and the tip of the N. I do enjoy that it's the same font as the logo on The Lamb Lies Down On Broadway, though!

-Marc.
ATTENTION - HAKEN FANS! The HAKEN SURVIVOR 2023 has begun! You can check it out in the Polls/Survivors Forum!!!

Offline Nel

  • Humorless Bore
  • Posts: 2453
  • Gender: Male
Re: Genesis: ...and then there were three... (1978)
« Reply #275 on: December 05, 2012, 11:32:42 AM »
And the album cover always looked like someone gave up halfway through creating it.  :lol

I know, right?! I mean, look at the logo... I've always wondered about their decision to put that green stuff over half of the G, par the E, and the tip of the N. I do enjoy that it's the same font as the logo on The Lamb Lies Down On Broadway, though!

-Marc.

Same here, man. I've always liked that they went back to the Lamb logo for this one, just never understood why the Nickolodeon slime was on it.
Hire me. I'm talentless but malleable.

Offline Orbert

  • Recovering Musician
  • EZBoard Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 19274
  • Gender: Male
  • In and around the lake
Re: Genesis: ...and then there were three... (1978)
« Reply #276 on: December 05, 2012, 11:37:05 AM »
From Wiki:

The LP sleeve cover was designed by Hipgnosis, the design studio founded by Storm Thorgerson (best known for his work with Led Zeppelin, UFO and Pink Floyd). In an interview, Thorgerson called the design a "failure", and described the concept being conveyed:

We were trying to tell a story by the traces left by the light trails. It was a torch, a car, and a man with a cigarette. The band was losing members and there were only three of them left. The lyrics of the songs were about comings and goings and we tried to describe this in photographic terms by using time-lapse. So there's a car going off to one side and then the guy gets out of the car, walks over to the front of it, and lights a cigarette. But as he walks he uses a torch and the car he was in leaves. There's a trail left by the car, a trail left by him as he's walking and then he lights a cigarette, which on the cover is where there's a flash of his face.

Offline Big Hath

  • DT.net Veteran
  • ****
  • Posts: 5781
Re: Genesis: ...and then there were three... (1978)
« Reply #277 on: December 05, 2012, 01:00:39 PM »
goodness, I read the description and I still can't make out what is happening on the cover.

Wonder why they went with it rather than try something else or go with a more generic cover.
Winger would be better!

. . . and if you gaze into the abyss, the abyss gazes also into you.

Offline Orbert

  • Recovering Musician
  • EZBoard Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 19274
  • Gender: Male
  • In and around the lake
Re: Genesis: ...and then there were three... (1978)
« Reply #278 on: December 05, 2012, 01:20:16 PM »
Yeah, it's a weird one.  Sometimes album cover art is just imagery and isn't really meant to make much sense, just look cool.  Whether or not it looks cool is up to the observer, but I was surprised to find that it was actually supposed to make sense.  As it was originally a vinyl LP with a jacket that unfolded, the picture continues round the back, and I considered including an enlarged picture showing the whole thing, but it still wouldn't have made any sense.

But what the hell.  Here's a CD reproduction of the cover:

« Last Edit: July 08, 2015, 05:41:48 PM by Orbert »

Offline Jaq

  • Posts: 4050
  • Gender: Male
  • Favorite song by Europe: Carrie.
Re: Genesis: ...and then there were three... (1978)
« Reply #279 on: December 05, 2012, 03:38:30 PM »
It makes a bit more sense when you look at the full image, but the fact that Strom Thorgerson called it a failure says a lot, and I usually love his covers to death. At least it's an AMBITIOUS failure.  :lol
The bones of beasts and the bones of kings become dust in the wake of the hymn.
Mighty kingdoms rise, but they all will fall, no more than a breath on the wind.