Jefferson Starship

[The Curious Orange]

So I went to see Jefferson Starship at the weekend for the first time, and OMFG I'm stunned at just how amazing they were, I really wasn't expecting that - part of it was the killer set-list (they played Sketches of China, FFS!), but most of it was the stunning Cathy Richardson, who is totally  and channelled the spirit of Grace Slick to a tee.

Any love out there for this most classic of classic rock bands? Some of Kantner's epic proto-prog tracks must surely appeal to DT fans?!

[wkiml]

Was into them way back, but honestly couldn't tell you who is still left in the band nowadays

[obscure]

Sweet! I am in contact with Mickey Thomas and have the opportunity to interview him.. I've always thought that the effort wouldn't pay off.. that I wouldn't be able to reach out to a lot of people... maybe I'm wrong.... 

[Orbert]

The original Jefferson Airplane was a little before my time, but I liked some of their stuff.  I wasn't sure I liked their "variations" on classic songs by other artists, but I thought it was cool that they did it.  Wooden Ships, etc.

Some people thought that the change to Jefferson Starship was a cheesy PR move, but I thought it made great sense and represented a change in their sound overall.  They seemed to drop most of the prog, but not all, and they kept the old Airplane penchant for jamming out, which is great.  I have Dragon Fly, Red Octopus, Spitfire, Earth, and Freedom at Point Zero.  I thought that was a great run.

Marty leaving obviously hurt them.  Starting with Modern Times, then Grace bailing out and Mickey Thomas taking over all lead vocals, and the official change to just Starship, I lost interest.  At this point, they were just another 80's pop band.  I thought it was funny that Paul Kantner made them drop the Jefferson part of the name when he quit, as there was no longer any association with the old Airplane.

But Jefferson Airplane and Jefferson Starship were great bands.  Starship had some catchy tunes.

[Orbert]

Nem, Mickey Thomas has a great voice for the type of singing he does, but he seems limited by his choices.  He's fine singing pop songs, and I'm assuming that he was brought into JS to provide the foil to Grace's voice, the way Marty Balin did.  Unfortunately, his voice doesn't seem to play well with others.  I loved how Grace and Marty played off of each other, but Grace and Mickey didn't work nearly as well.  Or maybe that was just to my ears.  Paul Kanter always seemed to want more than just pop.  Maybe not prog exactly, but he had an adventurous side to him, and somehow Mickey's voice didn't fit that the way Marty's could.

[obscure]

Thanks Orbert... all your words reinforce my train of thought... Also thanks for sharing your deep knowledge about whole bunch of bands.. like reading 'em.... 

[wkiml]

Mickey now tours with "Starship" and Paul is touring with Jefferson Starship with the new singer

I literally hate when bands do this (Great White/LA Guns...etc)

[Zook]

[rogerdil]

"Miracles" and "With Your Love" are great songs.   I guess JA is iconic but never really got into them and can't remember other Starship songs than...well, you know what awful song I'm talking about.

[The Curious Orange]

Yeah, Sorry  -  I went to see "Jefferson Starship", which includes Paul Kantner and David Freiberg from the classic line up, and not "Starship Featuring Mickey Thomas", which is a different beast indeed, and one I'd actually forgotten about.

[Orbert]

I caught part of a concert on cable TV a month or so ago, it was a small band with Kantner, Freiberg, and I'm pretty sure the Grace clone you mentioned in the OP, and the Children's Youth Orchestra or Something.  To my surprise, they did not suck!

That woman had some pipes, and sounded so much like Grace, and even looked kinda like her, that I thought maybe she'd come out of retirement for this one-off show or something.  I remember her retirement years ago, and I think this woman actually looked a bit too good to be Grace.  I ended up watching the last three or four songs, and caught the credits, and it was not Grace, but I don't remember her name.  If there's a regular "new Grace" in the band, this must've been her, though, 'cause she was awesome.

[Accelerando]

I'm working with park events at Disney World, and they actually just performed for a few nights for at the EPCOT Food & Wine Festival not too long ago. A lot of songs i've heard that I didn't realized they played. And the OP was right, Cathy Richardson rocked.

[Progmetty]

You went to see Jefferson Starship over the weekend? what year is this?! I didn't know they were operating without Grace Slick!

[Orbert]

Grace retired in 1989, but you know how it is with rock bands.  They'll keep going as long as people are willing to pay.

[wkiml]

Grace retired in 1989, but you know how it is with rock bands.  They'll keep going as long as people are willing to pay.

Didn't Grace make a comment back when she retired that people her age, didn't belong in Rock bands anymore? (Rolling Stones I'm looking at you...)


Edit:

Grace Slick left Starship in 1988, going on to join the reformed Jefferson Airplane, for one album in 1989, before announcing that she was retiring from music. As Kantner, Sears and Freiberg had left the band, all the new and remaining members were more than a decade younger than she was. To this day Slick maintains that old(er) people "don't belong on a rock and roll stage".[6]

[Progmetty]

I knew Slick retired in the late 80's and went on to a career of painting, I saw her gallery. I knew of her opinion about older people not belonging on stage and although there are a few exceptional cases; I admire her voicing that opinion.
I've been a huge fan of her's for a while, she's one of the few female singers who's voices really attracted me, I can certainly call her the best female singer I ever heard. But I don't think she ever pushed the boundaries of her talent, partially cause she belonged to that sixties era where musicians stopped being creative as soon as they started making money simply cause touring and being high all the time was more fun, can't blame them. They just went into studios and made more music of the same format.
I started a thread about Grace Slick in the old forums years ago which got a few replies so I didn't think it was worth it to start a new one here but now you guys got me excited again, I'm digging out Surrealistic Pillow tonight and giving it a surreal listen.. probably not a surreal listen cause they do random piss tests where I work now but I'll surely give it a normal listen, damn..

[Orbert]

Grace said that you can play Jazz or Classical until you're 90, but Rock and Roll is literally about a young person's anger and passion, and it's stupid to be that old and be up on stage singing about feelings that you just don't have anymore.  I understand her point, as there was definitely a time (the 60's) when the thought of "old rockers" was an absurdity.  That's easy, though, because Rock and Roll hadn't been around very long at the time, so there were no old rockers yet.  I'm old enough to remember that time.

I think what Grace hadn't considered is that not only would Rock stick around, but it would evolve into music that is much more than just an output for anger and passion.  People play Jazz or Classical into their 90's because it's good music, and good music is timeless.  In the 60's, it was crazy to think that Rock would reach that same level.  Movies today have Rock soundtracks.  People go to some Rock concerts and actually sit down and listen to the music; they don't dance or stand up and scream the whole time.  Rock used to be music for dancing or partying and having a good time.  People didn't actually sit and listen to it.  But now they do, and there's an entire generation of people that've come after her who think of it as much more than just teen angst music.

It was a bold statement by Grace, and I do understand and respect her views.  But they may have been a bit shortsighted.

[LudwigVan]

Not to mention that Rock music itself would morph and evolve to include such genres and jazz and classical. 

[The Curious Orange]

Sweet! I am in contact with Mickey Thomas and have the opportunity to interview him.. I've always thought that the effort wouldn't pay off.. that I wouldn't be able to reach out to a lot of people... maybe I'm wrong....

Actually, I'd love to hear what Mickey has to say. He joined a well established, major name band towards the end of their career. Many fans thought he was the man who saved JS following Marty and Grace's departures, and he steered the band into a new era and direction.
But as that new direction became more commercial, and original band members started being increasingly sidelined and leaving, many of those fans came to regard him as the man who killed JS. I'd like to hear his take on those years, and some of the more embarrasing decisions of the 1985-89 period - particularly how he feels towards his ex-bandmates today.

[Orbert]

Good points about Mickey either saving the Jefferson Starship, or killing them.  I think it depends on how you look at it.  With Marty gone and Grace in and out of rehab, there's no question that they needed a new, strong lead singer in order to continue.  And Mickey was exactly what they needed.  "Jane" is still one of my favorite songs by them, largely due to his incredible vocal performance.

And it's not like the band died right away.  They put out several more albums after he joined, and were on a positive commercial trend for quite a while.  The music scene was changing and the guys were getting older, so I don't know if it's fair to say that it's Mickey's fault that the band itself changed.  As always, it was a combination of factors.

If the ultimate goal is to write songs and make music that people will hear and enjoy, Starship did that, and thus should be considered a success.  Paul Kantner saw the band as getting away from his original vision, so he left and took the "Jefferson" name with him.  Neither side was really "right".  It's just the biz.

[The Curious Orange]

To my way of thinking, JS sold out the moment Kantner and Slick decided to move over to let Marty Balin dominate the band with his big, schmaltzy 70s ballads. JS became about commercial success - there's no other explantion for the disco-strings all over 1978's Earth.

Mickey Thomas was a breath of fresh air - both Freedom at Point Zero and Modern Times are great albums, and the fact is the band went on to their greatest ever success with the Starship hits like We Built This City and Nothing's Gonna Stop Us Now.

But it wasn't just Kantner that left - David Freiberg turned up for the recording sessions for Knee Deep In The Hoopla to find the producers had hired session players to play all the keyboards. He left the band. Pete Sears grew disillusioned during the tour to support that album and left the band. Grace Slick turned up to record a duet with Thomas for the No Protection album only to be told Mickey had decided to sing the track himself. Slick was still the band's strongest asset, and the group had been sidelining her for years at this point. She left the band.

Donny Baldwin got into a bar fight with Mickey Thomas and was fired. Craig Chaquito turned up to a band meeting to be told the next album wouldn't feature any guitars, and his song-writing services weren't needed. He left the band.

Sure, Starship were enjoying their biggest commercial successes ever, and must have made a ton of money, but between 1984 to 1989 they lost six out of seven members.

[Orbert]

"Selling out" is such an ugly term.  Maybe Kantner lost sight for a while, but if he did, he redeemed himself later.  I always thought it was pretty funny that he left and took the Jefferson name with him, the band continued as Starship, and Paul reformed The Jefferson Airplane.  Anyway, you could call it selling out, but I think what he was doing was trying to keep his band alive.  Popular music keeps changing, and Kantner wanted to keep writing meaningful music, but he also knew that it didn't mean much if no one heard it.  That's why Jefferson Airplane and Jefferson Starship albums always had some radio-friendly singles in there with the meatier stuff.

After Paul bailed, it's no surprise that most of the rest of the original crew followed him, willingly or otherwise.  Okay, Donny and Craig weren't original Airplane, but Craig was the longtime Jefferson Starship guitarist.  Donny came on board later through Mickey.  I hadn't heard why he left; I'm kinda surprised that he and Mickey had a falling out, since Mickey basically got him the gig (Donny was the drummer for the old Elvin Bishop band, of which Mickey was the lead singer).

Anyway, Starship was definitely a different band, a strictly commercial venture.  There's nothing wrong with that; if your goal is to write hit singles and you do it well, more power to you.  My only beef with them is that I always called The Jefferson Starship just "Starship" for short, and I couldn't do that anymore because they weren't the same band, and I didn't really like Starship.

[The Curious Orange]

What was so frustrating was that JS featured moments of genius. Paul's various solo and collaborative albums remain some of the strongest music to come out of JA/JS. Baron von Tollbooth is a great album, and Planet Earth Rock and Roll Orchestra is not only a great concept album (one of the best I've heard) but features some fantastic music, particularly the haunting Lillith's Song.

But there's just not enough of this on the JS albums. Red Octopus contains Paul's I Want to See Another World and Ai Garismu, one of Grace's best, but the album is dominated by Marty's lounge-lizard ballads. Spitfire contains the classic St Charles, but there's some dross there too. Nuclear Furniture has 3 great Kantner tracks - Rose Goes to Yale, Connection and Champion, but it's dominated by Mickey's soft-rock tracks, and the plinky-plonk production on Grace's Magician is unforgivable. Even when Kantner left and formed the KBC band, giving us the supurb Mariel, the rest of the album is dominated by Marty trying to sound like Springsteen.

This lack of quality control is so frustrating. The band always tried to temper their more personal flights of fancy with commercial hits,  but nothing dates faster than pop music, and a lot of their material sounds frankly embarrasing today - and not just the big Starship hits - try listening to Love Lovely Love from Spitfire without cringing. And that's a shame, because there's some timeless rock classics in there - Hyperdrive, Ride the Tiger - that tend to get drowned out by the pop tunes. I've always wanted to hear what JS could have come up with if Kantner and Slick had been given a bit more space in the band they formed. There were some very strange decisons taken, whether by the band, their management or the record label. But as I've observed before, the 80s were a time of "adapt or die" for many 70s groups.

[Orbert]

You can't realy blame singers for wanting to sing songs, though.  I know it's generalizing, but it's also true, that the songs with any kind of instrumental depth or progginess tend to be written by the musicians in the band, and if the singers write, then they tend to write radio-friendly pop hits.

That doesn't mean that they can't be great songs as well.  I think "Miracles" is amazing, and that's all Marty.  Same with "Caroline".  I think "Cruisin'" is one of my favorite Jefferson Starship tunes of all time.  Okay, mostly because of Marty's voice, I guess, not because of the songs themselves or any kind of deeper meaning to them.  Also, looking over the credits now, I'm surprised that "Love Too Good" wasn't written by Grace, and "Runaway" wasn't written by Marty, nor was "Count On Me".  In fact, most of Earth is by people other than Kantner, Balin, or Slick.  I've never noticed that before.  What's up with that?  If you're not writing the music for your own band, you can't really complain at the result.  There's a lack of quality control for you.  Is it possible that Paul was too busy with his side projects to properly steer the Jefferson Starship?

[The Curious Orange]

I think Earth is a good example of what happens when the egos take over the band. Jessie Barrish, who wrote many of the songs, was a protegee of Marty's. Grace's alchoholism was at it's height, so it's not surprising she didn't contribute much. The band were barely talking to each other at this point.

Don't get me wrong, I love Marty's stuff, especially Miracles, Sweeter than Honey and Cruisin' (that's one fun song -  I find myself doing Gladys Knight and the Pips-style dance moves every time I listen to it - Beep Beep Yeah!), and I love Mickey's rock stuff too - Jane, Find Your Way Back, Save Your Love, Layin' It On the Line, etc. It's just that some of it  has dated quite badly, and doesn't show what the band were truly capable of. You actually have to go to 1997's Windows of Heaven reunion album to find anything near what JS could / should have been, and that ain't got Grace on it.

[Orbert]

I didn't know who Jessie Barrish was.  I was wondering who this guy was that was apparently brought in to help write Earth.

I think Paul had love/hate relationships, or at least love/notsomuch relationships, with both Marty and Grace.  Obviously Grace will always be special to him, but her demons got the better of her, and when push came to shove, the band was better off without her in some ways.  She whined at the time, but I think she would admit it now.  I never quite knew what the deal was with Marty.  It seemed to me that he wanted to sing with Jefferson Airplane/Starship, but on his terms.  It also seems to me that he got bored after a while, and probably tired of putting up with Grace's shit, so he bailed.

Almost every good band is good because the members push themselves and each other, feed off of each other, and sometimes even compete with each other.  This can produce great results, but it can also create problems, especially when the egos get out of control and any given member thinks he or she is more important than they really are.