Author Topic: An outbreak of common sense from The Dalai Lama?  (Read 6327 times)

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Offline Rathma

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Re: An outbreak of common sense from The Dalai Lama?
« Reply #35 on: September 19, 2012, 09:05:38 PM »
"The moment we admit that questions of right and wrong, and good and evil, are actually questions about human and animal well-being, we see that science can, in principle, answer such questions. Human experience depends on everything that can influence states of the human brain, ranging from changes in our genome to changes in the global economy. The relevant details of genetics, neurobiology, psychology, sociology, economics etc. are fantastically complicated, but these are domains of facts, and they fall squarely within the purview of science.

-Dalai Lama"

Offline theseoafs

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Re: An outbreak of common sense from The Dalai Lama?
« Reply #36 on: September 20, 2012, 05:09:14 AM »
^This should go to show that if you believe morality is grounded in any sort of supernatural being, the Dalai Lama does not agree with you, even if you try to make him agree with you by re-defining the word "religion". :lol

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Re: An outbreak of common sense from The Dalai Lama?
« Reply #37 on: September 20, 2012, 07:00:47 AM »
I don't think this is said enough, so I'm going to go out on a limb and say it...

The Lama is a pretty cool guy and stuff.

But seriously, I wish the Pope, some other church leaders, Imams and Rabbi's would set this tone, but that isn't going to happen anytime soon.
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Offline Chino

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Re: An outbreak of common sense from The Dalai Lama?
« Reply #38 on: September 20, 2012, 07:34:01 AM »
But seriously, I wish the Pope, some other church leaders, Imams and Rabbi's would set this tone, but that isn't going to happen anytime soon.

That will never happen. I think because of that stance, religions are going to see massive numbers of participants drop in the decades and centuries to come. Modern day religions will all ultimately fail and no longer be followed because of globalization and the stubbornness of most of the religious leaders.

Offline Scheavo

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Re: An outbreak of common sense from The Dalai Lama?
« Reply #39 on: September 20, 2012, 11:09:32 AM »
I think you  have way too optimistic view about humans. Religion is only dying off in certain area's of the world, in other area's, it's just as strong as ever. Just look at 'Merica.

Offline Odysseus

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Re: An outbreak of common sense from The Dalai Lama?
« Reply #40 on: September 20, 2012, 01:12:34 PM »
:tup  If only more people grounded their ethics on God rather than religion, the world would be a much better place.

And if even more people grounded it in common sense and reciprocal altruism then it could be even better still!   :tup

Sadly, it's not going to happen any time soon....  :tdwn

Offline theseoafs

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Re: An outbreak of common sense from The Dalai Lama?
« Reply #41 on: September 20, 2012, 01:28:24 PM »
I think you  have way too optimistic view about humans. Religion is only dying off in certain area's of the world, in other area's, it's just as strong as ever. Just look at 'Merica.

Well, it's not even "just as strong as ever" here.  Religiosity is indeed on the decline.

Offline Scheavo

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Re: An outbreak of common sense from The Dalai Lama?
« Reply #42 on: September 20, 2012, 01:42:18 PM »
Considering half of American's belief in creationism, I'd beg to differ. Hell, percentage wise, more people in Turkey acknowledge evolution than America.

Also:

https://www.gallup.com/poll/141044/americans-church-attendance-inches-2010.aspx

Quote
Americans' self-reported church attendance has continued to inch up in 2010, with 43.1% of Americans reporting weekly or almost weekly attendance. This is up slightly from 42.8% in 2009 and 42.1% in 2008.


Offline theseoafs

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Re: An outbreak of common sense from The Dalai Lama?
« Reply #43 on: September 20, 2012, 01:55:49 PM »
I'll amend my statement to say that the percentage of Americans who claim to be "nonreligious", "agnostic", "atheist", etc., is indeed rising.  That is true, and it doesn't necessarily conflict with increases in self-professed churchgoing.

Offline Super Dude

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Re: An outbreak of common sense from The Dalai Lama?
« Reply #44 on: September 20, 2012, 02:03:01 PM »
It's also worth mentioning that religion statistics are always per reportage. Pressure to conform to communal religiosity exists in America as much as anywhere else, so I'm sure plenty of people report it but couldn't care less. Like the president.
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Offline theseoafs

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Re: An outbreak of common sense from The Dalai Lama?
« Reply #45 on: September 20, 2012, 02:10:57 PM »
inb4 tick

Offline Scheavo

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Re: An outbreak of common sense from The Dalai Lama?
« Reply #46 on: September 20, 2012, 02:15:37 PM »
I'll amend my statement to say that the percentage of Americans who claim to be "nonreligious", "agnostic", "atheist", etc., is indeed rising.  That is true, and it doesn't necessarily conflict with increases in self-professed churchgoing.

I like how you just radically changed your statement to something completely different then what I was objecting to.

Offline theseoafs

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Re: An outbreak of common sense from The Dalai Lama?
« Reply #47 on: September 20, 2012, 02:40:00 PM »
Yeah, I realized I didn't express the thought the right way.  You got a problem?

Offline Scheavo

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Re: An outbreak of common sense from The Dalai Lama?
« Reply #48 on: September 20, 2012, 03:12:54 PM »
A problem? No. But I'm not sure what you're saying anymore. Are you still suggesting that religious participation will drop in the future? Or are you simply saying that non-believers are becoming more comfortable in saying that they're non-believers?

Offline theseoafs

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Re: An outbreak of common sense from The Dalai Lama?
« Reply #49 on: September 20, 2012, 03:24:04 PM »
The latter has happened and will continue to happen.  It is my optimistic hope that the former will also occur in the future, because the two are interrelated -- as more people feel comfortable saying they're nonreligious, religious participation, especially among the halfhearted religious who say they're Christian because they feel they have to, will eventually see a decline.

There's no evidence that's going to happen quite yet, but a man can dream, can't he?

Offline bosk1

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Re: An outbreak of common sense from The Dalai Lama?
« Reply #50 on: September 20, 2012, 03:30:03 PM »
That's a pretty sick, twisted dream.
"The Supreme Court of the United States has descended from the disciplined legal reasoning of John Marshall and Joseph Story to the mystical aphorisms of the fortune cookie."

Offline theseoafs

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Re: An outbreak of common sense from The Dalai Lama?
« Reply #51 on: September 20, 2012, 03:31:19 PM »
Also, in my dream, there are free hot wings.

Offline bosk1

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Re: An outbreak of common sense from The Dalai Lama?
« Reply #52 on: September 20, 2012, 03:31:54 PM »
Well, now see, that I can get onboard with.
"The Supreme Court of the United States has descended from the disciplined legal reasoning of John Marshall and Joseph Story to the mystical aphorisms of the fortune cookie."

Offline Scheavo

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Re: An outbreak of common sense from The Dalai Lama?
« Reply #53 on: September 20, 2012, 03:35:05 PM »
The latter has happened and will continue to happen.  It is my optimistic hope that the former will also occur in the future, because the two are interrelated -- as more people feel comfortable saying they're nonreligious, religious participation, especially among the halfhearted religious who say they're Christian because they feel they have to, will eventually see a decline.

There's no evidence that's going to happen quite yet, but a man can dream, can't he?

I'm not sure there's that many people who say their Christian because they feel they have to. I could be wrong on that, but given the two trends, it seems like they're not very related. I don't see why church-going participation would rise, if simultaneously more people are admitting to being non-religious.

The problem as I see it is religion is interbred in what it means to be human. We think about our death, we're overall ignorant of what life is about, and we're social creatures. Given those two phenomenon, I don't see religion fading anytime soon - though it could change into something else.

Offline bosk1

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Re: An outbreak of common sense from The Dalai Lama?
« Reply #54 on: September 20, 2012, 03:42:32 PM »
True.  I mean, belief in God will always exist simply because it is impossible to stamp out truth.  But false religion will also always exist for the reasons you state.
"The Supreme Court of the United States has descended from the disciplined legal reasoning of John Marshall and Joseph Story to the mystical aphorisms of the fortune cookie."

Offline theseoafs

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Re: An outbreak of common sense from The Dalai Lama?
« Reply #55 on: September 20, 2012, 03:52:24 PM »
I'm not sure there's that many people who say their Christian because they feel they have to.

Are you kidding?  I'd say a tidy majority of religious Americans couldn't give less of a shit about God as far as their day-to-day lives go.

I don't see why church-going participation would rise, if simultaneously more people are admitting to being non-religious.

Well, first of all, I'm not convinced the statistics you posted are proof that church participation is on the rise.  It's hardly a statistically significant jump, if it is one at all.  Also, people will always be biased to over-report their church going, as Super Dude touched on.  By the way: https://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/08/14/atheism-rise-religiosity-decline-in-america_n_1777031.html

Offline Scheavo

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Re: An outbreak of common sense from The Dalai Lama?
« Reply #56 on: September 20, 2012, 04:00:30 PM »
So, let me get this right, people self-reporting that they're not religious is solid evidence, but people self-reporting that they're going to church is questionable?

Offline theseoafs

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Re: An outbreak of common sense from The Dalai Lama?
« Reply #57 on: September 20, 2012, 04:04:44 PM »
I'm saying a one-percent rise in self-reported churchgoing is, statistically speaking, far less convincing than a thirteen-percent drop in self-reported religiosity -- especially since this thread is about religion, and not just going to church.

Offline Rathma

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Re: An outbreak of common sense from The Dalai Lama?
« Reply #58 on: September 20, 2012, 08:50:20 PM »
I mean, belief in God will always exist simply because it is impossible to stamp out truth.

Why is it impossible to stamp out truth?

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Re: An outbreak of common sense from The Dalai Lama?
« Reply #59 on: September 20, 2012, 09:41:43 PM »
True.  I mean, belief in God will always exist simply because it is impossible to stamp out truth.

Or simply because in a free society people can generally hold whatever personal beliefs they please without being prosecuted, whether they be right, wrong, true, false, provable or not.
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Offline Ben_Jamin

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Re: An outbreak of common sense from The Dalai Lama?
« Reply #60 on: September 21, 2012, 12:17:59 AM »
Man, I love these quotes. To be human is to accept life as its presented, all the glories are luxuries.
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Offline theseoafs

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Re: An outbreak of common sense from The Dalai Lama?
« Reply #61 on: September 21, 2012, 05:56:12 AM »
What?

Offline bosk1

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Re: An outbreak of common sense from The Dalai Lama?
« Reply #62 on: September 21, 2012, 08:09:17 AM »
True.  I mean, belief in God will always exist simply because it is impossible to stamp out truth.

Or simply because in a free society people can generally hold whatever personal beliefs they please without being prosecuted, whether they be right, wrong, true, false, provable or not.

Yes, but I'm not talking about simply believing in Christianity in presently-free modern-day America.  Belief in God has often times come at a very high price in societies that have been much less tolerant.  Where believers face threats of death, imprisonment, or other persecution, belief still prevails.  And even if it didn't, that wouldn't somehow make God cease to exist or somehow invalidate belief in him.
"The Supreme Court of the United States has descended from the disciplined legal reasoning of John Marshall and Joseph Story to the mystical aphorisms of the fortune cookie."

Offline eric42434224

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Re: An outbreak of common sense from The Dalai Lama?
« Reply #63 on: September 21, 2012, 08:53:41 AM »
Belief does not mean truth, or validation of existence.

and

Belief is not always out in the open.  An oppressive society cant takae away what you believe if they dont know you believe it.  You dont have to go to church or wear a cross around your neck to believe.
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Offline bosk1

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Re: An outbreak of common sense from The Dalai Lama?
« Reply #64 on: September 21, 2012, 09:10:42 AM »
That's kinda my point.
"The Supreme Court of the United States has descended from the disciplined legal reasoning of John Marshall and Joseph Story to the mystical aphorisms of the fortune cookie."

Offline eric42434224

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Re: An outbreak of common sense from The Dalai Lama?
« Reply #65 on: September 21, 2012, 09:19:35 AM »
That's kinda my point.

I thought you equated belief in god with truth.
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Offline bosk1

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Re: An outbreak of common sense from The Dalai Lama?
« Reply #66 on: September 21, 2012, 09:22:50 AM »
No.  Truth is truth, regardless of belief.  I'm just saying that, because truth will always exist, there will likely always be those who believe it.
"The Supreme Court of the United States has descended from the disciplined legal reasoning of John Marshall and Joseph Story to the mystical aphorisms of the fortune cookie."

Offline Super Dude

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Re: An outbreak of common sense from The Dalai Lama?
« Reply #67 on: September 21, 2012, 12:31:56 PM »
Yes, but I'm not talking about simply believing in Christianity in presently-free modern-day America.  Belief in God has often times come at a very high price in societies that have been much less tolerant.  Where believers face threats of death, imprisonment, or other persecution, belief still prevails.  And even if it didn't, that wouldn't somehow make God cease to exist or somehow invalidate belief in him.

That is a very interesting proposition there, truly.
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Offline bosk1

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Re: An outbreak of common sense from The Dalai Lama?
« Reply #68 on: September 21, 2012, 12:41:38 PM »
You almost make a very good point that I would agree with wholeheartedly.  However, the fact that you choose to post it in such a trollish manner earns you a warning:  Knock it off or get booted from P/R.
"The Supreme Court of the United States has descended from the disciplined legal reasoning of John Marshall and Joseph Story to the mystical aphorisms of the fortune cookie."

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Re: An outbreak of common sense from The Dalai Lama?
« Reply #69 on: September 21, 2012, 01:14:15 PM »
True.  I mean, belief in God will always exist simply because it is impossible to stamp out truth.

Or simply because in a free society people can generally hold whatever personal beliefs they please without being prosecuted, whether they be right, wrong, true, false, provable or not.

Yes, but I'm not talking about simply believing in Christianity in presently-free modern-day America.  Belief in God has often times come at a very high price in societies that have been much less tolerant.  Where believers face threats of death, imprisonment, or other persecution, belief still prevails.  And even if it didn't, that wouldn't somehow make God cease to exist or somehow invalidate belief in him.

While I understand the point you are making, I hope we can agree that with tables turned, even if 100% of the world believed in god, that  alone wouldn't make his existence proven.
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