Playing to a click track live

[William Wallace]

Any thoughts on running a click track during lives performances? I practice with a metronome regularly, but I had not used one live until this weekend. I was a bit skeptical previously, but now I'm sold on its usefulness.

[Adami]

There will be lots of people here who will tell you not to play with one live, ignore those people. If you don't need it and don't want it, then don't use it. If you like it, use it. It's really that simple. Playing to a click doesn't remove any aspect of groove or liveliness if you know how to do it, it just allows you to not worry about the tempo and put more effort into what you're playing.


Personally I usually play with backing tracks, so I have a laptop near me at all shows running pro tools which means I obviously play to a click track. And I love it personally. When I'm not using a click, I often doubt myself as to whether or not I'm playing too fast, or too slow or whatever, but with a click it's not a concern anymore.

I say do it if you like it. And ignore the people who talk about how it ruins performances.

[William Wallace]

There will be lots of people here who will tell you not to play with one live, ignore those people. If you don't need it and don't want it, then don't use it. If you like it, use it. It's really that simple. Playing to a click doesn't remove any aspect of groove or liveliness if you know how to do it, it just allows you to not worry about the tempo and put more effort into what you're playing.


Personally I usually play with backing tracks, so I have a laptop near me at all shows running pro tools which means I obviously play to a click track. And I love it personally. When I'm not using a click, I often doubt myself as to whether or not I'm playing too fast, or too slow or whatever, but with a click it's not a concern anymore.

I say do it if you like it. And ignore the people who talk about how it ruins performances.

Yeah, that's my view, too. I feel much more in control of the groove. When I practice, I'll set the metronome to whole notes, or I'll turn it off entirely for a few measures. That seems to prevent any sort of dependence from developing.

[Orbert]

It doesn't ruin performances, but I can't see how anyone can say that it doesn't remove a certain degree of spontaneity.  If you get to that one part of the song where it slows down, or speeds up, and you feel liking taking it a bit slower or faster, the click track can't change on the fly and follow you.  And if everybody is trained to follow the click, then the tempos will be exactly the same every time you play the song.  How is that better than allowing the band the freedom to go with the flow?

[William Wallace]

It doesn't ruin performances, but I can't see how anyone can say that it doesn't remove a certain degree of spontaneity.  If you get to that one part of the song where it slows down, or speeds up, and you feel liking taking it a bit slower or faster, the click track can't change on the fly and follow you.  And if everybody is trained to follow the click, then the tempos will be exactly the same every time you play the song.  How is that better than allowing the band the freedom to go with the flow?

Turning the click off is always an option. But more to your point, changing the feel of a certain section of a song comes from changing the volume or playing more or fewer notes in each measure, and neither requires a change in tempo.

[Orbert]

True, but changing the feel can also come from changing the tempo.  One of the things that defines a specific performance of a song is the tempo, and removing the performers' ability to choose the tempo removes a very important aspect of the performance.

You've spoken of its usefulness.  What exactly is the use of the click track?  Every person on stage should be listening to every other person on stage.  You shouldn't need a click track to "keep everyone together".  If you want it to set the tempo, then fine, let everyone hear two bars in their ears to get the tempo, then turn it off.  It doesn't have to click throughout the whole song.

People have been playing live music for thousands of years and did it just fine without a click track to keep everyone together or to set the tempo.  What else does it do that I'm apparently missing?

[William Wallace]

True, but changing the feel can also come from changing the tempo.  One of the things that defines a specific performance of a song is the tempo, and removing the performers' ability to choose the tempo removes a very important aspect of the performance.

You've spoken of its usefulness.  What exactly is the use of the click track?  Every person on stage should be listening to every other person on stage.  You shouldn't need a click track to "keep everyone together".  If you want it to set the tempo, then fine, let everyone hear two bars in their ears to get the tempo, then turn it off.  It doesn't have to click throughout the whole song.

People have been playing live music for thousands of years and did it just fine without a click track to keep everyone together or to set the tempo.  What else does it do that I'm apparently missing?

I think the context ultimately has to define how and when a click is used. More times than not, however, it's probably wise to use one because most musicians don't have the ability manipulate the tempo of a song intentionally. Hence the widespread use of clicks in music today. If everyone in the band can keep the song tight, then maybe a click isn't appropriate. But in my experience, clicking in the song for two measures isn't enough to keep everyone at the same tempo. 

[MetalMike06]

I'm interested in how it's actually done live; a band I'm forming right now probably won't be able to find a keys player for a while, and we're thinking of having the drummer play to a click track to stay with the synth tracks. How do you have a click go to the drummer with only the synth parts going to the PA?

[Orbert]

most musicians don't have the ability manipulate the tempo of a song intentionally.
...in my experience, clicking in the song for two measures isn't enough to keep everyone at the same tempo. 

Seriously, you should just find better musicians to play with.  If you've got guys who can't play a song without speeding it up or slowing it down, replace them.  If you've got a drummer who can't keep a steady beat and keep the band together by them just listening to him, replace your drummer.  If everyone on stage is listening to everyone else, how can one person somehow play faster or slower than everyone else?  If your drummer can keep time (which is one of his defined responsibilities), then all people have to do is follow him, and there's no problem.

I've been playing in bands for 35 years and have never played in a band where people couldn't stay together without a click track.  I have played with drummers (actually just one) who would speed up or slow down sometimes, usually if hot babes were on the dance floor, and this was a problem, so we talked to him about it and he wasn't even aware that he was doing it.  Once he was aware of the issue, it didn't seem to happen nearly as often, and never as badly.  But regardless, we just played with him, and usually the bass player would yell at him to slow down or whatever, and things would tend to right themselves.

Maybe it's because I played so long without one that I'm the fogey who dislikes it because it's new and doesn't seem to do anything or add anything that the guys onstage can't do themselves.  Maybe it's because I recently quit a gig where the leader totally embraced click tracks and backing tracks and all that stuff that makes everything fake and plastic sounding, so I'm coming down kinda hard on it.  But really, what's the point of live performance if you take all the "live" aspect out of it?

[Adami]

I'm interested in how it's actually done live; a band I'm forming right now probably won't be able to find a keys player for a while, and we're thinking of having the drummer play to a click track to stay with the synth tracks. How do you have a click go to the drummer with only the synth parts going to the PA?

Well there's a cheap way which I don't like and an expensive way that you guys probably won't want to do.

The expensive way is to get a laptop with a recording program on it, I use pro tools. Make sure you have an audio interface with it's own headphones out. You send all of the tracks to the main outs, and the click to a cue, and whatever tracks you also want the drummer to hear to the cue as well. Then the main outs go to the PA and all you have are the tracks, while the headphones take the cue output which gives the click and whatever else you want to the drummer.


A cheaper way to do it is to mix the song down into a stereo file with the click completely panned to one side. Then get a chord splitter out from the Ipod or whatever MP3 player you want, plug the half that has the click into the head phones and the other into the PA. That way the drummer hears the click and you guys don't, however you won't have the option of remixing anything (which I often find is necessary) or having a stereo mix for the tracks,

[Adami]

most musicians don't have the ability manipulate the tempo of a song intentionally.
...in my experience, clicking in the song for two measures isn't enough to keep everyone at the same tempo. 

Seriously, you should just find better musicians to play with.  If you've got guys who can't play a song without speeding it up or slowing it down, replace them.  If you've got a drummer who can't keep a steady beat and keep the band together by them just listening to him, replace your drummer.  If everyone on stage is listening to everyone else, how can one person somehow play faster or slower than everyone else?  If your drummer can keep time (which is one of his defined responsibilities), then all people have to do is follow him, and there's no problem.

I've been playing in bands for 35 years and have never played in a band where people couldn't stay together without a click track.  I have played with drummers (actually just one) who would speed up or slow down sometimes, usually if hot babes were on the dance floor, and this was a problem, so we talked to him about it and he wasn't even aware that he was doing it.  Once he was aware of the issue, it didn't seem to happen nearly as often, and never as badly.  But regardless, we just played with him, and usually the bass player would yell at him to slow down or whatever, and things would tend to right themselves.

Maybe it's because I played so long without one that I'm the fogey who dislikes it because it's new and doesn't seem to do anything or add anything that the guys onstage can't do themselves.  Maybe it's because I recently quit a gig where the leader totally embraced click tracks and backing tracks and all that stuff that makes everything fake and plastic sounding, so I'm coming down kinda hard on it.  But really, what's the point of live performance if you take all the "live" aspect out of it?

I can't speak for WW or anything. But I use backing tracks (and thus a click track) live because I can't find 6 keyboard players to come up there and play all of the necessary synth parts, many of which are tempo locked, which would cause a major problem if I (as a drummer) went off even a little bit from the tempo. I get you had a bad experience and as a keyboardist who was essentially replaced with backing tracks, I can see how that would be a real horrible thing. However for people like me, who have TONS of keyboards going on at once and don't feel like cutting them all out for the sake of some idea of live purity, then backing tracks are a wonderful thing

Clearly though it REALLY depends on the music,

[Orbert]

It definiitely depends on the music.  If it's a given that there will be prerecorded parts with which the live players will have to keep in sync, then I agree that a click track can be very helpful.

The original post didn't mention anything about that, though, so I was talking about click tracks in general, and because of my background, I was assuming that all the music is being played live.

[William Wallace]

most musicians don't have the ability manipulate the tempo of a song intentionally.
...in my experience, clicking in the song for two measures isn't enough to keep everyone at the same tempo. 

Seriously, you should just find better musicians to play with.  If you've got guys who can't play a song without speeding it up or slowing it down, replace them.  If you've got a drummer who can't keep a steady beat and keep the band together by them just listening to him, replace your drummer.  If everyone on stage is listening to everyone else, how can one person somehow play faster or slower than everyone else?  If your drummer can keep time (which is one of his defined responsibilities), then all people have to do is follow him, and there's no problem.

For one thing, it's not always easy to replace someone. The band I was in a few years ago, for example, had a difficult time finding a drummer before I joined, and then we had an even harder time finding a bassist. Running a click is a less time consuming way to fix the problem. But even when you have talented musicians, the possibility of tempo problems is always presented. If there are a lot of people on stage, it's very easy for one person, say a vocalist, to push the tempo one way or another. But I can hold the song where it's supposed to be by locking my drum pattern with a click. 

I've been playing in bands for 35 years and have never played in a band where people couldn't stay together without a click track.  I have played with drummers (actually just one) who would speed up or slow down sometimes, usually if hot babes were on the dance floor, and this was a problem, so we talked to him about it and he wasn't even aware that he was doing it.  Once he was aware of the issue, it didn't seem to happen nearly as often, and never as badly.  But regardless, we just played with him, and usually the bass player would yell at him to slow down or whatever, and things would tend to right themselves.

But if he was running a click, no yelling would have been necessary, and he probably wouldn't have sped up at all. If he did speed up, even slightly, he would've known. You basically described all the reasons to implement a click track in this paragraph.

Maybe it's because I played so long without one that I'm the fogey who dislikes it because it's new and doesn't seem to do anything or add anything that the guys onstage can't do themselves.  Maybe it's because I recently quit a gig where the leader totally embraced click tracks and backing tracks and all that stuff that makes everything fake and plastic sounding, so I'm coming down kinda hard on it.  But really, what's the point of live performance if you take all the "live" aspect out of it?

If that works for you, cool. Though I've never bought the "click makes everything stiff" argument." Every record I love was cut to a click track, even many of the live ones. If I know the song I'm playing, where the transitions are, how the fills go, etc., I don't feel stiff. I just play at an even tempo.

[TheLordOfTheStrings]

The way that Periphery does it is insane. SOOOO much pressure on Halpern. Poor guy. haha.

[PROGdrummer]

The singer of one little band I play in recently decided that we should start using click tracks in our performances after he saw another band use them live. I absolutely can not stand it. Using a click track actually makes my playing WORSE than when I play without one. I cant do cool accented fills or anything or switch tempos like I'm supposed to without getting off sync with the damn click, and then I'll either have to speed up or slow down to sync up again. The rest of the band can just look at how I'm bobbing my head in order to figure out how to groove with me anyway. Using a click may help some people, but i personally can't stand it. I can keep tempo just fine and so can the band. And we gel way better without a click track anyway. It's more organic

[Kotowboy]

Lots of bands play to a click track live now - which is great for my brother's business - which is making music videos.

If he films the band live for a single or whatever and they play to a click - it makes syncing up the footage an absolute doddle 

Literally just drag and drop the track and it's perfectly in time.

[Tiko]

The singer of one little band I play in recently decided that we should start using click tracks in our performances after he saw another band use them live. I absolutely can not stand it. Using a click track actually makes my playing WORSE than when I play without one. I cant do cool accented fills or anything or switch tempos like I'm supposed to without getting off sync with the damn click, and then I'll either have to speed up or slow down to sync up again. The rest of the band can just look at how I'm bobbing my head in order to figure out how to groove with me anyway. Using a click may help some people, but i personally can't stand it. I can keep tempo just fine and so can the band. And we gel way better without a click track anyway. It's more organic

I don't mean to be offensive but you need to practice more... it's not the click track, it's the fact that you are not used to it/need more practice.

- Tiko

[Orbert]

The problem with that attitude is that it starts with the idea that it is better to use a click track.  If you have trouble working with it, playing with it, then the problem is with you.  You need to practice playing with a click track, get better at it, and everything will be better.

Not everyone buys into that.  Yes, if everyone plays with the click, everyone stays together.  A good band can do that anyway.  The click insures that your tempos are consistent.  A good band can do that anyway.  A good band can also hold tight while putting a little groove into their playing, which requires adjusting the tempo up or down per the mood, and a click track can't do that.

What it comes down to is this:  There is nothing inherently better about playing an entire song at exactly the same tempo all the way through, and there are many, many songs for which this isn't possible in the first place.  Any time there's a fermata, a meter or tempo change, or even a slight ritardando or accelerando, your click track can't do that.  If all you play for four hours a night are songs that are exactly the same all the way through, that sounds boring as hell and I'm glad I've never played in a band like that.  Standing up there being a bunch of machines for four hours.  Yay.

[Tiko]

Let me clarify: I'm not saying it's better to play with a click. Some people like it, some don't. It suits some genres better than others as well as some players better than others.

What I was saying is that if you lose the tempo when you do a fill it doesn't mean the click is a bad system and shouldn't be used because it ruins your playing. It means you can't keep the tempo; practice harder and you'll be tighter and able to keep locked to the tempo no matter what fills you play.

Simplified: a click doesn't make anyone's playing worse, it just brings it under a microscope. It does take away the option to let the music and tempo live and alter - I agree.

When it comes to groove, if you really got it then a click track wont stop you. Gavin Harrison is a good example.

- Tiko

[kirksnosehair]

I don't think I'd want to play to a click in a live setting.  Too restricting.

[rumborak]

yeah, I'm not too fond of click tracks. I actually recently saw a show that was completely click track, and while it was a good show, it also felt somewhat unnatural.

[William Wallace]

yeah, I'm not too fond of click tracks. I actually recently saw a show that was completely click track, and while it was a good show, it also felt somewhat unnatural.

The consensus seems to be, and I agree, that it all depends on the context. The click isn't for everybody at all times. But I've been playing with one live for seven months, and I'm pleased with the results. It's easier to lock in with bass players I don't often play with, transitions between songs are smoother, and I'm much more judicious when deciding what kinds of fills to play. 

[Orbert]

Okay, I hate to keep bringing this up, but so far no one has answered it.  How do you deal with changing meters and tempos?  Are there click tracks that can do that?  If there are, okay; I've just never heard of such sophisticated devices.  If not, what do you do?

[BlobVanDam]

Okay, I hate to keep bringing this up, but so far no one has answered it.  How do you deal with changing meters and tempos?  Are there click tracks that can do that?  If there are, okay; I've just never heard of such sophisticated devices.  If not, what do you do?

You can use any old sequencing software to create the full click track for the song (you can just reuse the original click you recorded the song to, if you recorded the song yourself). You could then just record that out to an mp3 or whatever, and play that on anything.
I think I've seen metronome apps that let you set up changing time sigs too.
There are probably other options available too.

(edited)

[kirksnosehair]

Okay, I hate to keep bringing this up, but so far no one has answered it.  How do you deal with changing meters and tempos?  Are there click tracks that can do that?  If there are, okay; I've just never heard of such sophisticated devices.  If not, what do you do?

You can use any old sequencing software to create the full click track for the song (you can just reuse the original click you recorded the song to, if you recorded the song yourself). You could then just record that out to an mp3 or whatever, and play that on anything.
I think I've seen metronome apps that let you set up changing time sigs too.
There are probably other options available too.

(edited)

This is all the precise reason why I would never use a click track in a live setting.  You're literally locking your entire band in to a pre-programmed sequence of tempos and meters with no way to add any kind of spontaneity into your performance.   If you have a song that is 4/4 @ 120bpm for 200 measures, then 6/8 @ 160bpm for 100 measures then back to 4/4 @ 120bpm for another 200 measures, that's it.  That's what you play.  No matter what.  No improvisation, no spur of the moment ("Rock The House!" -Transatlantic) type of stuff.  Just those pre-arranged tempos and speeds.


 

[Orbert]

Exactly.  It means that the changes must occur at the same points.  I'm talking about live music, remember?  During the guitar solo, the guitarist is off the stage, running through the bar, playing the entire time.  Now he's laying back on the pool table, now some girl is pouring beer into his mouth.  (I'm not making this up; I've played gigs like this.)  The rest of the band is going through changes, messing around, but there's no set point at which he's gonna come back.  It could be 32 bars, it could 128, it could be more.  But when he comes back, we're gonna slow down and go into the big ending.  I guess we could just kill the click at that point.  But what if it wasn't that simple?  What if he comes back and we go into another section, or just go into another song at a completely different tempo?

I'm not talking about creating a click to track an entire song.  In this case, it obviously can't be done.  I'm talking about varying tempos on the fly, somehow (through a combination of foot switches or something) telling the click when it's time to gradually change to a new, predefined tempo.

[kirksnosehair]

In my mind, if you're going through all of that effort to try to be able to change the click on the fly.....maybe you just need a better drummer 

[BlobVanDam]

Okay, I hate to keep bringing this up, but so far no one has answered it.  How do you deal with changing meters and tempos?  Are there click tracks that can do that?  If there are, okay; I've just never heard of such sophisticated devices.  If not, what do you do?

You can use any old sequencing software to create the full click track for the song (you can just reuse the original click you recorded the song to, if you recorded the song yourself). You could then just record that out to an mp3 or whatever, and play that on anything.
I think I've seen metronome apps that let you set up changing time sigs too.
There are probably other options available too.

(edited)

This is all the precise reason why I would never use a click track in a live setting.  You're literally locking your entire band in to a pre-programmed sequence of tempos and meters with no way to add any kind of spontaneity into your performance.   If you have a song that is 4/4 @ 120bpm for 200 measures, then 6/8 @ 160bpm for 100 measures then back to 4/4 @ 120bpm for another 200 measures, that's it.  That's what you play.  No matter what.  No improvisation, no spur of the moment ("Rock The House!" -Transatlantic) type of stuff.  Just those pre-arranged tempos and speeds.


 

I'm not a huge fan of it either, although I accept that it's sometimes a necessary evil for the sake of backing tapes (keyboard parts, backing vocals etc), and other aspects of the live show like lighting and video.

But OTOH as you said, it removes opportunities for improv and spontaneity. Some songs lend themselves to speeding up gradually over the course of the song, or pushing/pulling the tempo just slightly for different sections of the song to accentuate the feel. And it locks you in, so you can't as easily just have an improv section, like a breakdown with the crowd, or an arbitrary break in the song before kicking back in etc, exactly the kind of stuff Orb is talking about.

Both approaches have their pros and cons, but when I see a live show, a lot of the appeal to me is the chance to see something unexpected and unique to that show, and there's not as much of that when you're locked in to a click track.

[kirksnosehair]

In contrast, I'd never try to record anything in the studio without a click track, except maybe blues.

[William Wallace]

Exactly.  It means that the changes must occur at the same points.  I'm talking about live music, remember?  During the guitar solo, the guitarist is off the stage, running through the bar, playing the entire time.  Now he's laying back on the pool table, now some girl is pouring beer into his mouth.  (I'm not making this up; I've played gigs like this.)  The rest of the band is going through changes, messing around, but there's no set point at which he's gonna come back.  It could be 32 bars, it could 128, it could be more.  But when he comes back, we're gonna slow down and go into the big ending.

Of course you want to leave room for spontaneity, but if your guitar player did that more than once a show, you'd probably want to slap him. I certainly would. More times than not, consistency is what you want on stage.

[Orbert]

Nah, we were pretty tight, but because we were tight, we could get pretty insane at gigs.  Pete (the guitarist) had his first wireless rig and was having fun with it.  Solos were usually a fixed length, but some were open jams, and he'd sometimes leave the stage and go running through the bar, soloing the whole time.  The crowd loved it.  Consistency can be good, but not at the cost of spontaneity.  I know I keep repeating myself, and I promise I'll stop now, but spontaneity and being in the moment is the whole point of playing live music.  I don't want to play it the same way every night.  I don't want to play everything the same tempo every night.  That sounds boring as hell.

[kirksnosehair]

I'm definitely on the same page with Orbert