Rush v. Dirk, Pratt, & Lerxst

[pg1067]

Feel like I just have to weigh in; in terms of SONGS, Hold Your Fire may be my FAVORITE Rush record.  I don't care for all the instrumental choices, and I've said before, if Rush ever decided to do an acoustic version of their songs, I would nominate all of Hold Your Fire for that honor.   Some of the melodies and arrangements on that record are simply beautiful.

It just suffers from having to follow up the perfection of Power Windows. In retrospect, I have grown to like the album more than I used to. But at the time, it was (to me) the first ever Rush album with skip tracks.

Unfortunately, not for me.  I'm not TAC, but Power Windows was not perfection even if it was a MASSIVE step forward from the abysmal Grace Under Pressure. After (but including) p/g, all Rush records were a cornucopia of excellent songs mixed with... not excellent songs.   HYF seemed to have a preponderance of the former.

Power Windows corrected most (but not all) of the sound issues that plagued GUP, but the songs were still mostly disappointing - especially in comparison to the epic material of only half a decade earlier.  One really good song, one pretty good song, a couple of ok songs, and a bunch of duds.  In terms of the songs, GUP gets a slight nod from me.  And HYF was a step down even from POW, with only one song holding any real, lasting impact for me.

[TAC]

[Lethean]

Grace Under Pressure and Power Windows both rule.  So does Hold Your Fire; maybe the last song is kinda meh for Rush standards but it's fine. 

[King Postwhore]

I don't listen to s bunch of heads.

The old bastards get that. Lol

[DTA]

HYF is the one Rush album where there’s at least 7 songs that could potentially be my favorite Rush song on any given day. And while it’s not ever going to make my top 30 list, High Water always seemed like one of their more interesting and unique closing tracks. The verses are tribal and sparse which is not a vibe you hear much from them and even though it’s Mystic Rhythms-lite, I appreciate it for being somewhat different.

[nick_z]

HYF might be a step down from the sheer greatness of Power Windows, but it's still pretty great. It made my Rush top 10 in the latest ranking. Many fantastic songs, and if I had to pick a couple of favorites I'd probably go with Time Stand Still and Prime Mover (wish they played it live more often...)

[KevShmev]

I think some of the chatter illustrates a good point, which is that the strong preference of many for the 70s material goes back to them growing up on it or hearing it first.  It is hard not love the most what we hear first.  And I think that is why a lot of the later material is more highly-regarded now than it used to be, because newer fans are coming in fresh without any strong allegiance to "their" era or anything like that.  Don't get me wrong, my five favorite Rush songs are still from the 1976-1981 years, but when it comes to consistent songwriting on a higher level, their 80s material runs laps around the 70s. 

[TAC]

I think some of the chatter illustrates a good point, which is that the strong preference of many for the 70s material goes back to them growing up on it or hearing it first.  It is hard not love the most what we hear first.  And I think that is why a lot of the later material is more highly-regarded now than it used to be, because newer fans are coming in fresh without any strong allegiance to "their" era or anything like that.  Don't get me wrong, my five favorite Rush songs are still from the 1976-1981 years, but when it comes to consistent songwriting on a higher level, their 80s material runs laps around the 70s.

Stop it. That’s not true at all. Maybe your truth. Every 80’s album has clunkers. Especially Power Windows. And the newer fans are still beholden to their era, it’s just that it’s the 80’s.

[KevShmev]

I think some of the chatter illustrates a good point, which is that the strong preference of many for the 70s material goes back to them growing up on it or hearing it first.  It is hard not love the most what we hear first.  And I think that is why a lot of the later material is more highly-regarded now than it used to be, because newer fans are coming in fresh without any strong allegiance to "their" era or anything like that.  Don't get me wrong, my five favorite Rush songs are still from the 1976-1981 years, but when it comes to consistent songwriting on a higher level, their 80s material runs laps around the 70s.

Stop it. That’s not true at all. Maybe your truth. Every 80’s album has clunkers. Especially Power Windows. And the newer fans are still beholden to their era, it’s just that it’s the 80’s.

I meant newer fans like ones that came on board in the 21st century.

I am not going to get into a Power Windows discussion since it would be pointless, but every 80s album has clunkers? Really?  Permanent Waves and Moving Pictures have clunkers??? That's a major hot take.

Are you telling me the majority of the 70s albums don't have at least one clunker?  By my watch, they do. 

[HOF]

Permanent Waves has Jacob’s Ladder and Moving Pictures has Witch Hunt. ;-) I’d say there are only a handful of 70s Rush songs that aren’t “clunkers.” Really it’s all tastes and preferences, and one man’s clunker is another man’s favorite (Emotion Detector is a top 3 Rush track for me).

I struggled with 70s music in general for a long time, so it was always unlikely that the 70s would be one of my favorite eras from Rush. But even Neil felt that they didn’t become a mature band until like Moving Pictures. There are things I appreciate from the 70s Rush, but it’s just not what I love about Rush for the most part.

[jammindude]

I think some of the chatter illustrates a good point, which is that the strong preference of many for the 70s material goes back to them growing up on it or hearing it first.  It is hard not love the most what we hear first.  And I think that is why a lot of the later material is more highly-regarded now than it used to be, because newer fans are coming in fresh without any strong allegiance to "their" era or anything like that.  Don't get me wrong, my five favorite Rush songs are still from the 1976-1981 years, but when it comes to consistent songwriting on a higher level, their 80s material runs laps around the 70s.

Stop it. That’s not true at all. Maybe your truth. Every 80’s album has clunkers. Especially Power Windows. And the newer fans are still beholden to their era, it’s just that it’s the 80’s.

I heard, and grew up on the 70s stuff first and foremost. The self titled thru Moving Pictures was my first love, and those 8 albums (well, 10 of you count the 2 live albums that were out at the time) were pretty much being constantly played over and over again for 4-6 hours a day every day between 1982-1984. Signals came out during that time, but at the time I didn’t feel it quite lived up to the perfection of the others. I was obsessed with Rush during this period.

When GUP first came out (my first new album as a full blown Rush freak) I initially liked that the guitars were more forward in the mix than Signals, and I jammed out to it a bit, but then Ride the Lightning came out, and kickstarted my obsession with thrash. From 84-86, it was all about how heavy and fast it could be and I briefly lost my interest in Rush, but maintained my love for the early stuff.

I didn’t even buy Power Windows when it first came out because I had heard Big Money on the radio and thought it was lame (I still think it’s the weakest song on the album, and a poor choice for a single, but it grew on me a bit). But eventually, I had a friend who had bought the album and didn’t like it, so he offered it to me for a buck just to complete my Rush collection, so I bought it from him.

I was completely unprepared for how much that album blew my doors off on the very first listen. And it was so 180 degrees different than anything else I was listening to at the time. But the songwriting was SO good, and the production was so bright, and warm and layered and interesting. And Neil’s drum work was so interesting to listen to. It’s amazing what adding a little flair can do for a poppier song. And the lyrics were Neil’s greatest ever. He’s never outdone his lyrical work on Power Windows.

Basically, I was an all 70s guy and that was my first love, and that is what shaped my fandom. But Power Windows was so exceptionally good that it rekindled my love of Rush when it had been waning a bit, and it did it during a time when everything else I was listening to was “if you use synthesizers, you’re a pussy!”   The songwriting and the album itself were just so extremely good that it broke through all of that.

Now that I’m in my 50s, and no longer full off piss and vinegar, I find that I have warmed up to the 80s stuff quite a bit and I tend to reach for that more often than the early stuff.

[The Letter M]

Permanent Waves has Jacob’s Ladder and Moving Pictures has Witch Hunt. ;-) I’d say there are only a handful of 70s Rush songs that aren’t “clunkers.” Really it’s all tastes and preferences, and one man’s clunker is another man’s favorite (Emotion Detector is a top 3 Rush track for me).

I struggled with 70s music in general for a long time, so it was always unlikely that the 70s would be one of my favorite eras from Rush. But even Neil felt that they didn’t become a mature band until like Moving Pictures. There are things I appreciate from the 70s Rush, but it’s just not what I love about Rush for the most part.

Ironically, I love "Jacob's Ladder" and quite enjoy "Witch Hunt", while "Emotion Detector" is probably my least favorite on POW. The band themselves probably feel similarly because both JL and WH have been played on at least two tours each, and both at least on one tour in the 21st century. Meanwhile, in their last 15 years touring, they played SEVEN of the eight songs off of POW, with the only one not played was the one they never played live in the 80s - "Emotion Detector". They really showed POW fans some love bringing back nearly ever song live in the past 20+ years, but that one song just didn't work out I guess.

I think some of the chatter illustrates a good point, which is that the strong preference of many for the 70s material goes back to them growing up on it or hearing it first.  It is hard not love the most what we hear first.  And I think that is why a lot of the later material is more highly-regarded now than it used to be, because newer fans are coming in fresh without any strong allegiance to "their" era or anything like that.  Don't get me wrong, my five favorite Rush songs are still from the 1976-1981 years, but when it comes to consistent songwriting on a higher level, their 80s material runs laps around the 70s. 

I think some of the chatter illustrates a good point, which is that the strong preference of many for the 70s material goes back to them growing up on it or hearing it first.  It is hard not love the most what we hear first.  And I think that is why a lot of the later material is more highly-regarded now than it used to be, because newer fans are coming in fresh without any strong allegiance to "their" era or anything like that.  Don't get me wrong, my five favorite Rush songs are still from the 1976-1981 years, but when it comes to consistent songwriting on a higher level, their 80s material runs laps around the 70s.

Stop it. That’s not true at all. Maybe your truth. Every 80’s album has clunkers. Especially Power Windows. And the newer fans are still beholden to their era, it’s just that it’s the 80’s.

I meant newer fans like ones that came on board in the 21st century.

I am not going to get into a Power Windows discussion since it would be pointless, but every 80s album has clunkers? Really?  Permanent Waves and Moving Pictures have clunkers??? That's a major hot take.

Are you telling me the majority of the 70s albums don't have at least one clunker?  By my watch, they do. 

I became a fan of Rush around 2001-2002. My first exposure was their "Sector 2" albums, plus 2112, the five-album god run. and that's where I fell in love with the band. For sure, those albums and the three before all have at least one "clunker", at the very least a fan-least-favorite here or there. As I have grown in my listening tastes and discovered how Rush evolved over time, I really began to love their 80s albums even more. The 90s stuff took a bit of time, but as I became a fan in 2002 or so, not long after Vapor Trails released, I was a *BIG* fan of their last three albums. Being a fan during those album cycles was very hype for me, so they got absorbed over much longer periods of time, unlike discovering 16-17 albums upon first listening to them, and hearing all those songs in a shorter amount of time.

Then again, even though I am a "newer" fan by comparison to some here, I feel like I love and appreciate every where of Rush, though I'd say their "Sector 4" material is where I lack a bit of appreciation for some of it (though Counterparts is a Top 10 Rush album for me, despite a few clunkers there as well).

-Marc.

[HOF]

Permanent Waves has Jacob’s Ladder and Moving Pictures has Witch Hunt. ;-) I’d say there are only a handful of 70s Rush songs that aren’t “clunkers.” Really it’s all tastes and preferences, and one man’s clunker is another man’s favorite (Emotion Detector is a top 3 Rush track for me).

I struggled with 70s music in general for a long time, so it was always unlikely that the 70s would be one of my favorite eras from Rush. But even Neil felt that they didn’t become a mature band until like Moving Pictures. There are things I appreciate from the 70s Rush, but it’s just not what I love about Rush for the most part.

Ironically, I love "Jacob's Ladder" and quite enjoy "Witch Hunt", while "Emotion Detector" is probably my least favorite on POW. The band themselves probably feel similarly because both JL and WH have been played on at least two tours each, and both at least on one tour in the 21st century. Meanwhile, in their last 15 years touring, they played SEVEN of the eight songs off of POW, with the only one not played was the one they never played live in the 80s - "Emotion Detector". They really showed POW fans some love bringing back nearly ever song live in the past 20+ years, but that one song just didn't work out I guess.

Yeah, I think the story was that they didn't feel he could recapture the feel of the studio recording due to the sequencing or something along those lines. You'd think that would be easier to do these days, but it's not like it was a fan favorite either so I can see why they didn't take the time to work it up and do it right.

[TAC]

I think some of the chatter illustrates a good point, which is that the strong preference of many for the 70s material goes back to them growing up on it or hearing it first.  It is hard not love the most what we hear first.  And I think that is why a lot of the later material is more highly-regarded now than it used to be, because newer fans are coming in fresh without any strong allegiance to "their" era or anything like that.  Don't get me wrong, my five favorite Rush songs are still from the 1976-1981 years, but when it comes to consistent songwriting on a higher level, their 80s material runs laps around the 70s.

Stop it. That’s not true at all. Maybe your truth. Every 80’s album has clunkers. Especially Power Windows. And the newer fans are still beholden to their era, it’s just that it’s the 80’s.

I meant newer fans like ones that came on board in the 21st century.

I am not going to get into a Power Windows discussion since it would be pointless, but every 80s album has clunkers? Really?  Permanent Waves and Moving Pictures have clunkers??? That's a major hot take.

Are you telling me the majority of the 70s albums don't have at least one clunker?  By my watch, they do.

EVERY one of their albums have at least one clunker.

I consider Permanent Waves part of the 70's run.
Moving Pictures stands alone.
80's to me means Signals through HYF. I don't include Presto as part of the 80's run.


My point was that if you became a fan in the 80's then that is your era. There's plenty of fogeys that heard the 70's albums first and aren't gatekeepers to it.

[KevShmev]

I think some of the chatter illustrates a good point, which is that the strong preference of many for the 70s material goes back to them growing up on it or hearing it first.  It is hard not love the most what we hear first.  And I think that is why a lot of the later material is more highly-regarded now than it used to be, because newer fans are coming in fresh without any strong allegiance to "their" era or anything like that.  Don't get me wrong, my five favorite Rush songs are still from the 1976-1981 years, but when it comes to consistent songwriting on a higher level, their 80s material runs laps around the 70s.

Stop it. That’s not true at all. Maybe your truth. Every 80’s album has clunkers. Especially Power Windows. And the newer fans are still beholden to their era, it’s just that it’s the 80’s.

I meant newer fans like ones that came on board in the 21st century.

I am not going to get into a Power Windows discussion since it would be pointless, but every 80s album has clunkers? Really?  Permanent Waves and Moving Pictures have clunkers??? That's a major hot take.

Are you telling me the majority of the 70s albums don't have at least one clunker?  By my watch, they do.

EVERY one of their albums have at least one clunker.

I consider Permanent Waves part of the 70's run.
Moving Pictures stands alone.
80's to me means Signals through HYF. I don't include Presto as part of the 80's run.


My point was that if you became a fan in the 80's then that is your era. There's plenty of fogeys that heard the 70's albums first and aren't gatekeepers to it.

80s to me means Permanent Waves through Presto since those were the studio albums released in, ya know, the 80s.  We don't get to cherry pick what albums we think are from this decade or that one.

My original post was:

I think some of the chatter illustrates a good point, which is that the strong preference of many for the 70s material goes back to them growing up on it or hearing it first.  It is hard not love the most what we hear first.  And I think that is why a lot of the later material is more highly-regarded now than it used to be, because newer fans are coming in fresh without any strong allegiance to "their" era or anything like that.  Don't get me wrong, my five favorite Rush songs are still from the 1976-1981 years, but when it comes to consistent songwriting on a higher level, their 80s material runs laps around the 70s.

It seems weird that I have to explain this, but when I say 70s Rush, I obviously mean the studio albums from the debut through Hemispheres, and when I say 80s Rush, I obviously mean the studio albums from Permanent Waves through Presto. 

Yeesh.

[Lethean]

I think only a few of their albums have clunkers.  I became a fan during the 90s and probably have a bias towards Counterparts and Test for Echo as a result, but my favorites are from all eras vs just one.

[ProfessorPeart]

So the audiobook of Ged's book is going to contain 2 songs written for his solo album. He cut them because he thought they were too personal and heavy at the time due to their subject matter. One is about the death of Neil's daughter and the other is loosely about Ged and his wife.

https://blabbermouth.net/news/geddy-lee-on-finding-lost-solo-demos-it-really-lifted-me-up-and-made-me-remember-how-much-fun-it-is-to-make-records

[TAC]

It seems weird that I have to explain this, but when I say 70s Rush, I obviously mean the studio albums from the debut through Hemispheres, and when I say 80s Rush, I obviously mean the studio albums from Permanent Waves through Presto. 

Yeesh.

80's Rush does not get to claim Permanent Waves and Moving Pictures!!

[HOF]

So the audiobook of Ged's book is going to contain 2 songs written for his solo album. He cut them because he thought they were too personal and heavy at the time due to their subject matter. One is about the death of Neil's daughter and the other is loosely about Ged and his wife.

https://blabbermouth.net/news/geddy-lee-on-finding-lost-solo-demos-it-really-lifted-me-up-and-made-me-remember-how-much-fun-it-is-to-make-records

Hopefully they make it to some other format than just the audiobook, because while that's a cool incentive to pick up the audiobook, that's no way to listen to music I imagine.

Come to think of it, are audiobooks just on things like Audible now, or are they on CD still?

[The Letter M]

It seems weird that I have to explain this, but when I say 70s Rush, I obviously mean the studio albums from the debut through Hemispheres, and when I say 80s Rush, I obviously mean the studio albums from Permanent Waves through Presto. 

Yeesh.

80's Rush does not get to claim Permanent Waves and Moving Pictures!!

PEW I would give a pass for being a 70s Rush album given that it was written in the 70s, and AFAIK, was released on January 18th in 1980, so it's an 80s album by less than three weeks. It's splitting hairs, though, given that the album was written and recorded by September of 1979, and some songs were even performed before the album was recorded. So maybe the *album* itself is an 80s album, but the songs themselves are 70s Rush? 

Honestly, I've stuck with labeling their discography by the respective "Sectors" since that was the band's/label's naming convention for them when they made those box sets years ago. Before that, fans spoke of every-four-albums as a "phase" but I like the terminology of "Sector" better. When many fans broadly say "80s Rush" they most likely mean "Sector 3", where the synths became more prominent, and I've usually seen it as a basic understanding between Rush fans to refer to that run of albums as such.

Again, it's just picking nits. If you want to be super specific, just name the albums you're talking about, but remember there's a difference between PEW and POW, and using just PW is wrong.

-Marc.

[ProfessorPeart]

So the audiobook of Ged's book is going to contain 2 songs written for his solo album. He cut them because he thought they were too personal and heavy at the time due to their subject matter. One is about the death of Neil's daughter and the other is loosely about Ged and his wife.

https://blabbermouth.net/news/geddy-lee-on-finding-lost-solo-demos-it-really-lifted-me-up-and-made-me-remember-how-much-fun-it-is-to-make-records

Hopefully they make it to some other format than just the audiobook, because while that's a cool incentive to pick up the audiobook, that's no way to listen to music I imagine.

Come to think of it, are audiobooks just on things like Audible now, or are they on CD still?

I saw a story that said they might be released digitally later. I did find that there is a CD version of the book which is apparently 26 CD's. Going for $41 at Amazon right now.

[Setlist Scotty]

Permanent Waves has Jacob’s Ladder and Moving Pictures has Witch Hunt. ;-) I’d say there are only a handful of 70s Rush songs that aren’t “clunkers.” Really it’s all tastes and preferences, and one man’s clunker is another man’s favorite (Emotion Detector is a top 3 Rush track for me).

You spelled Vital Signs wrong. (I love both WH *and* ED, and JL is a pretty darn good tune also)
 
 

I became a fan of Rush around 2001-2002. My first exposure was their "Sector 2" albums, plus 2112, the five-album god run. and that's where I fell in love with the band. For sure, those albums and the three before all have at least one "clunker", at the very least a fan-least-favorite here or there. As I have grown in my listening tastes and discovered how Rush evolved over time, I really began to love their 80s albums even more. The 90s stuff took a bit of time, but as I became a fan in 2002 or so, not long after Vapor Trails released, I was a *BIG* fan of their last three albums. Being a fan during those album cycles was very hype for me, so they got absorbed over much longer periods of time, unlike discovering 16-17 albums upon first listening to them, and hearing all those songs in a shorter amount of time.

Then again, even though I am a "newer" fan by comparison to some here, I feel like I love and appreciate every where of Rush, though I'd say their "Sector 4" material is where I lack a bit of appreciation for some of it (though Counterparts is a Top 10 Rush album for me, despite a few clunkers there as well).

Interesting insight Marc. I got into Rush right around 1981 and while it's true throughout most of the 80s I thought that the "synth" albums Rush was doing weren't as good as the older stuff, in the decades since, I've come to appreciate them more (especially PoW!) so that I probably regard them just as highly as the previous era of albums (AFtK-MP).
 
 

It seems weird that I have to explain this, but when I say 70s Rush, I obviously mean the studio albums from the debut through Hemispheres, and when I say 80s Rush, I obviously mean the studio albums from Permanent Waves through Presto. 

80's Rush does not get to claim Permanent Waves and Moving Pictures!!

Sorry Timmay - Kev put it pretty succinctly. 80s Rush includes everything released in the 1980s, like it or not. 

Besides, PeW and MP especially have more in common with the albums that follow than the previous albums, since Rush was *much* more focused on writing more concise music and the keyboards were playing a much bigger role. So yeah, 80s Rush includes PeW, MP and Presto.

[jammindude]

Sorry Scotty but I got a disagree with you on that last point. I think PEW and MP are closer to the two or three albums previous, than with the two or three albums after.

The songwriting may have been more concise, but it was still far more guitar oriented and still did contain songs that pushed the 10 minute mark.

Signals was the huge paradigm shift in their sound.

While I do agree that 80s albums by their definition should definitely include PEW and MP, the change in their sound is better defined by the “sectors”.

[TAC]

Permanent Waves and Moving Pictures deserve their own sector!

[King Postwhore]

Permanent Waves and Moving Pictures deserve their own sector!

They are special albums that I never get sick of listening too.

[HOF]

Permanent Waves has Jacob’s Ladder and Moving Pictures has Witch Hunt. ;-) I’d say there are only a handful of 70s Rush songs that aren’t “clunkers.” Really it’s all tastes and preferences, and one man’s clunker is another man’s favorite (Emotion Detector is a top 3 Rush track for me).

You spelled Vital Signs wrong. (I love both WH *and* ED, and JL is a pretty darn good tune also)
 

You know, Vital Signs is the biggest clunker of that trio of songs (I don’t mind Jacob’s Ladder so much, just think it kind of plods a bit).

[King Postwhore]

Disagree. It's an amazing closing song. To hear the reggae influence in that setting is goosebumps. 

[KevShmev]

Welcome to DTF, where albums from the 80s are not considered 80s albums.

[King Postwhore]

Lololol. Tim goes by keyboards for eras. Lol

[KevShmev]

Update: A Farewell to Kings has keyboards on it, so I am considering it an 80s album.

This means the margin of victory of the 80s over the 70s just got even larger!!

[TAC]

Update: A Farewell to Kings has keyboards on it, so I am considering it an 80s album.

This means the margin of victory of the 80s over the 70s just got even larger!!

A Farewell To Kings is their worst 70's album, so that makes sense.

[KevShmev]

Update: A Farewell to Kings has keyboards on it, so I am considering it an 80s album.

This means the margin of victory of the 80s over the 70s just got even larger!!

A Farewell To Kings is their worst 70's album, so that makes sense.

It's not a 70s album, it's an 80s album. Try to keep up.

[The Letter M]

Calling PEW an 80s album purely by release date is akin to a kid born in late 1989 calling themselves an 80s kid.

-Marc.

[TAC]

Calling PEW an 80s album purely by release date is akin to a kid born in late 1989 calling themselves an 80s kid.

-Marc.

Right. I was born in 1968 and I'd never call myself a 60's kid.

[King Postwhore]

Calling PEW an 80s album purely by release date is akin to a kid born in late 1989 calling themselves an 80s kid.

-Marc.

Right. I was born in 1968 and I'd never call myself a 60's kid.

You just call yourself,  old.   Yeah. I know. I am too, sucka!