Poll

What are the 3 best songs on Clockwork Angels?

Caravan
71 (12.2%)
BU2B
46 (7.9%)
Clockwork Angels
85 (14.6%)
The Anarchist
44 (7.6%)
Carnies
19 (3.3%)
Halo Effect
11 (1.9%)
Seven Cities of Gold
21 (3.6%)
The Wreckers
46 (7.9%)
Headlong Flight
87 (14.9%)
BU2B2
4 (0.7%)
Wish Them Well
16 (2.7%)
The Garden
132 (22.7%)

Total Members Voted: 199

Author Topic: Rush v. Dirk, Pratt, & Lerxst  (Read 497672 times)

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Offline TAC

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Re: Rush v. Dirk, Pratt, & Lerxst
« Reply #6440 on: May 15, 2023, 07:26:50 PM »
 :lol
 :facepalm:
would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
Winger Theater Forums........or WTF.  ;D
TAC got a higher score than me in the electronic round? Honestly, can I just drop out now? :lol

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Re: Rush v. Dirk, Pratt, & Lerxst
« Reply #6441 on: May 15, 2023, 07:30:06 PM »
I go..

Hemispheres
2112
FBN
Rush
AFTK
CoC

Caress of Copper?
Nah, this is Tim we're talking about. We all know he was going for Caress of Carts. :biggrin:
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Re: Rush v. Dirk, Pratt, & Lerxst
« Reply #6442 on: May 15, 2023, 07:58:21 PM »
 :lol
would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
Winger Theater Forums........or WTF.  ;D
TAC got a higher score than me in the electronic round? Honestly, can I just drop out now? :lol

Offline pg1067

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Re: Rush v. Dirk, Pratt, & Lerxst
« Reply #6443 on: May 16, 2023, 10:25:06 AM »
I go..

Hemispheres
2112
FBN
Rush
AFTK
CoC

Caress of Copper?

 :lol

Hemispheres
AFTK
FBN
2112
COS
Rush
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Re: Rush v. Dirk, Pratt, & Lerxst
« Reply #6444 on: May 17, 2023, 12:50:20 AM »
AFTK
FBN
2112
Hemispheres
COS
Rush
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Re: Rush v. Dirk, Pratt, & Lerxst
« Reply #6445 on: May 17, 2023, 10:47:46 AM »
Just popping in to say how much more I appreciate and enjoy Caress Of Steel now than when I first discovered Rush over 20 years ago. Every song just hits me harder now, and it's easily my favorite of their first three albums. The more I've been listening to COS, the more I think I might like it over 2112 as a whole, whose second side is a bit hit-or-miss for me.

-Marc.

I'm not going to defend CoS, I think it gets ranked somewhat fairly. Certainly not among their best, but not a dumpster fire to be forgotten about as some like to do either. That said, I think in the mainstream aura at least, 2112 as an ALBUM is certainly overrated. The song is absolutely amazing, but the second side is inconsistent and uninspired by comparison for sure. While I prefer it to CoS overall, and it is fairly credited with the rebirth of the band, when it comes to their string of flawless classic era albums it should not be in the same breath as AFtK>MP.
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Offline The Letter M

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Re: Rush v. Dirk, Pratt, & Lerxst
« Reply #6446 on: May 17, 2023, 12:41:21 PM »
Just popping in to say how much more I appreciate and enjoy Caress Of Steel now than when I first discovered Rush over 20 years ago. Every song just hits me harder now, and it's easily my favorite of their first three albums. The more I've been listening to COS, the more I think I might like it over 2112 as a whole, whose second side is a bit hit-or-miss for me.

-Marc.

I'm not going to defend CoS, I think it gets ranked somewhat fairly. Certainly not among their best, but not a dumpster fire to be forgotten about as some like to do either. That said, I think in the mainstream aura at least, 2112 as an ALBUM is certainly overrated. The song is absolutely amazing, but the second side is inconsistent and uninspired by comparison for sure. While I prefer it to CoS overall, and it is fairly credited with the rebirth of the band, when it comes to their string of flawless classic era albums it should not be in the same breath as AFtK>MP.

Agreed, which is why I think it was brilliance or pure luck that their first sixteen albums each had a live album to cap off every four studio albums. This made their first four albums, aka Sector 1, a good "set" by which 2112 caps it off. The same could be said for Sector 2 of AFTK-MP, where MP caps off that run. Sadly, both HYF and TFE aren't the best albums in their respective Sectors (IMO, though they have some great tracks, as a whole, I think I prefer POW and CP over the albums that followed them).

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Offline KevShmev

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Re: Rush v. Dirk, Pratt, & Lerxst
« Reply #6447 on: May 17, 2023, 12:55:20 PM »
I wouldn't call Side 2 of 2112 inconsistent, as every song is, at the very least, good, but obviously none of them are super amazing like the Side 1 title track.  I do have much love, however, for both The Twilight Zone and Tears.

I still find if fascinating that Hold Your Fire was Neil's favorite Rush album over the final years of his life (per a friend of his, who told the story after Neil's passing about how often he and Neil would listen to that record). 

Offline pg1067

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Re: Rush v. Dirk, Pratt, & Lerxst
« Reply #6448 on: May 17, 2023, 01:09:50 PM »
Agreed, which is why I think it was brilliance or pure luck that their first sixteen albums each had a live album to cap off every four studio albums. This made their first four albums, aka Sector 1, a good "set" by which 2112 caps it off. The same could be said for Sector 2 of AFTK-MP, where MP caps off that run. Sadly, both HYF and TFE aren't the best albums in their respective Sectors (IMO, though they have some great tracks, as a whole, I think I prefer POW and CP over the albums that followed them).

This raises another issue, which is the fairly recent tendency to release WAY too many live albums.  That aside, I think it's interesting to rank the albums within each of the four "sectors" you mentioned.

Sector 1 (this is easily the closest race - the margins between the first three albums are razor thin)
1. FBN
2. 2112
3. COS
4. Rush

Sector 2
1. Hemispheres
2. Moving Pictures
3. AFTK
4. PEW (it feels WRONG to rank any of these albums last in any ranking!)

Sector 3
1. Signals (this is the biggest blowout by any of the #1 ranked albums)
2. GUP
3. POW
4. HYF

Sector 4
1. Presto
2. Counterparts
3. T4E
4. RTB (this is the most distant of any of the #4 ranked albums)

21st Century
1. Vapor Trails
2. Clockwork Angels
3. S&A
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Online Stadler

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Re: Rush v. Dirk, Pratt, & Lerxst
« Reply #6449 on: May 17, 2023, 02:26:46 PM »
I wouldn't call Side 2 of 2112 inconsistent, as every song is, at the very least, good, but obviously none of them are super amazing like the Side 1 title track.  I do have much love, however, for both The Twilight Zone and Tears.

I still find if fascinating that Hold Your Fire was Neil's favorite Rush album over the final years of his life (per a friend of his, who told the story after Neil's passing about how often he and Neil would listen to that record).

I think HYF is BY FAR the most misunderstood and underrated of their albums.  I think that album has some of their best songwriting, and is the ONLY album in their catalogue that I would have LOVED to have heard them do acoustically. 

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Re: Rush v. Dirk, Pratt, & Lerxst
« Reply #6450 on: May 17, 2023, 02:29:18 PM »
I thought HYF was acoustic.. :P
would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
Winger Theater Forums........or WTF.  ;D
TAC got a higher score than me in the electronic round? Honestly, can I just drop out now? :lol

Offline King Postwhore

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Re: Rush v. Dirk, Pratt, & Lerxst
« Reply #6451 on: May 17, 2023, 02:34:27 PM »
I thought HYF was acoustic.. :P

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Offline RodrigoAltaf

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Re: Rush v. Dirk, Pratt, & Lerxst
« Reply #6452 on: May 17, 2023, 02:43:06 PM »
For me, the period between GUP and HYF is the absolute peak of Neil's abilities as a drummer and lyricist. So it makes sense that he liked HYF so much.

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Re: Rush v. Dirk, Pratt, & Lerxst
« Reply #6453 on: May 17, 2023, 02:52:35 PM »
For me, the period between GUP and HYF is the absolute peak of Neil's abilities as a drummer and lyricist. So it makes sense that he liked HYF so much.
I actually think Test for Echo was his peak for drumming. Not so much for lyrics though. I absolutely love HYF though.
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Re: Rush v. Dirk, Pratt, & Lerxst
« Reply #6454 on: May 17, 2023, 03:32:12 PM »
For me, the period between GUP and HYF is the absolute peak of Neil's abilities as a drummer and lyricist. So it makes sense that he liked HYF so much.
I actually think Test for Echo was his peak for drumming. Not so much for lyrics though. I absolutely love HYF though.

Test For Echo has better drumming than..Permanenet Waves? Hemispheres? Moving Pictures?
would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
Winger Theater Forums........or WTF.  ;D
TAC got a higher score than me in the electronic round? Honestly, can I just drop out now? :lol

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Re: Rush v. Dirk, Pratt, & Lerxst
« Reply #6455 on: May 17, 2023, 03:37:18 PM »
For me, the period between GUP and HYF is the absolute peak of Neil's abilities as a drummer and lyricist. So it makes sense that he liked HYF so much.
I actually think Test for Echo was his peak for drumming. Not so much for lyrics though. I absolutely love HYF though.

Test For Echo has better drumming than..Permanenet Waves? Hemispheres? Moving Pictures?

I'm with you on that.  Moving Pictures for sure. 

Offline Kram

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Re: Rush v. Dirk, Pratt, & Lerxst
« Reply #6456 on: May 17, 2023, 03:45:14 PM »
For me, the period between GUP and HYF is the absolute peak of Neil's abilities as a drummer and lyricist. So it makes sense that he liked HYF so much.
I actually think Test for Echo was his peak for drumming. Not so much for lyrics though. I absolutely love HYF though.

Test For Echo has better drumming than..Permanenet Waves? Hemispheres? Moving Pictures?

I'm with you on that.  Moving Pictures for sure.
Or Hemisphere's.  There's some sick ass playing by all three of them on that album!

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Re: Rush v. Dirk, Pratt, & Lerxst
« Reply #6457 on: May 17, 2023, 06:34:25 PM »
For me, the period between GUP and HYF is the absolute peak of Neil's abilities as a drummer and lyricist. So it makes sense that he liked HYF so much.
I actually think Test for Echo was his peak for drumming. Not so much for lyrics though. I absolutely love HYF though.

Test For Echo has better drumming than..Permanenet Waves? Hemispheres? Moving Pictures?
As someone who has been playing drums for 25 years now and has covered stuff by Tool live with a couple different bands in various local clubs, with the exception of a couple parts on Hemispheres that are really hard to replicate, I can play everything note for note on the drums on both Permanent Waves and Moving Pictures. To this day, there is stuff on Test for Echo that I still have no clue how to replicate. At least not perfectly.
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Re: Rush v. Dirk, Pratt, & Lerxst
« Reply #6458 on: May 17, 2023, 07:06:37 PM »
Is it because of the swing he added to his repertoire?
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Re: Rush v. Dirk, Pratt, & Lerxst
« Reply #6459 on: May 17, 2023, 07:07:31 PM »
Can't NOT do this one:

Sector 1
1. 2112
2. Fly By night
3. Caress of Steel
4. Rush

Sector 2
1. Moving Pictures
2. Permanent Waves
3. A Farewell to Kings
4. Hemispheres

Sector 3
1. Power Windows
2. Grace Under Pressure
3. Signals
4. Hold Your Fire

Sector 4
1. Counterparts
2. Roll the Bones
3. Presto
4. Test for Echo

21st Century
1. Clockwork Angels
2. Vapor Trails
3. Snakes & Arrows

Offline TAC

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Re: Rush v. Dirk, Pratt, & Lerxst
« Reply #6460 on: May 17, 2023, 07:09:44 PM »
For me, the period between GUP and HYF is the absolute peak of Neil's abilities as a drummer and lyricist. So it makes sense that he liked HYF so much.
I actually think Test for Echo was his peak for drumming. Not so much for lyrics though. I absolutely love HYF though.

Test For Echo has better drumming than..Permanenet Waves? Hemispheres? Moving Pictures?
As someone who has been playing drums for 25 years now and has covered stuff by Tool live with a couple different bands in various local clubs, with the exception of a couple parts on Hemispheres that are really hard to replicate, I can play everything note for note on the drums on both Permanent Waves and Moving Pictures. To this day, there is stuff on Test for Echo that I still have no clue how to replicate. At least not perfectly.

I suppose you would know then I guess. I also have some background in the drums and nothing on TFE really sounds that intimidating. Of course the album absolutely blows so I don't listen to it hardly at all.
would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
Winger Theater Forums........or WTF.  ;D
TAC got a higher score than me in the electronic round? Honestly, can I just drop out now? :lol

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Re: Rush v. Dirk, Pratt, & Lerxst
« Reply #6461 on: May 17, 2023, 07:13:37 PM »
For me, the period between GUP and HYF is the absolute peak of Neil's abilities as a drummer and lyricist. So it makes sense that he liked HYF so much.
I actually think Test for Echo was his peak for drumming. Not so much for lyrics though. I absolutely love HYF though.

Test For Echo has better drumming than..Permanenet Waves? Hemispheres? Moving Pictures?
As someone who has been playing drums for 25 years now and has covered stuff by Tool live with a couple different bands in various local clubs, with the exception of a couple parts on Hemispheres that are really hard to replicate, I can play everything note for note on the drums on both Permanent Waves and Moving Pictures. To this day, there is stuff on Test for Echo that I still have no clue how to replicate. At least not perfectly.

Wasn't T4E the album he recorded after "going back to school" and taking lessons from Freddie Gruber? Neil had mentioned how he had really changed the way he approached drumming...maybe not in a way that was immediately obvious from casual listening...

Anyway, regardless of the technical aspect and the difficulty of replication, in my view the drum parts in some of the albums mentioned above are just iconic in a way that most parts on T4E are not (quite). They are just so incredibly "identifiable", many of them are basically as recognizable in the context of the songs as some of the vocal lines  :)

Offline KevShmev

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Re: Rush v. Dirk, Pratt, & Lerxst
« Reply #6462 on: May 17, 2023, 07:19:08 PM »
I think it goes without saying as well that "harder to play does not equal better."

Offline TAC

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Re: Rush v. Dirk, Pratt, & Lerxst
« Reply #6463 on: May 17, 2023, 07:24:31 PM »
Maybe the technicality of the drumming on TFE would be peak technically, but I feel like what he was playing at 25 was way more impressive than what he was playing at 45.
would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
Winger Theater Forums........or WTF.  ;D
TAC got a higher score than me in the electronic round? Honestly, can I just drop out now? :lol

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Re: Rush v. Dirk, Pratt, & Lerxst
« Reply #6464 on: May 17, 2023, 07:34:57 PM »
You all make very valid points. I'm just saying from a technical aspect, some of the stuff on T4E is much harder for me to wrap my head around.

And to Nick's point, the stuff on the earlier albums is definitely much more iconic and instantly recognizable.
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Re: Rush v. Dirk, Pratt, & Lerxst
« Reply #6465 on: May 17, 2023, 07:38:32 PM »
For me, the period between GUP and HYF is the absolute peak of Neil's abilities as a drummer and lyricist. So it makes sense that he liked HYF so much.
I actually think Test for Echo was his peak for drumming. Not so much for lyrics though. I absolutely love HYF though.

Test For Echo has better drumming than..Permanenet Waves? Hemispheres? Moving Pictures?
As someone who has been playing drums for 25 years now and has covered stuff by Tool live with a couple different bands in various local clubs, with the exception of a couple parts on Hemispheres that are really hard to replicate, I can play everything note for note on the drums on both Permanent Waves and Moving Pictures. To this day, there is stuff on Test for Echo that I still have no clue how to replicate. At least not perfectly.

Wasn't T4E the album he recorded after "going back to school" and taking lessons from Freddie Gruber? Neil had mentioned how he had really changed the way he approached drumming...maybe not in a way that was immediately obvious from casual listening...
Oh and this is also true and probably part of the problem for me figuring out the various parts. Just him taking a different approach. I mean, I bought the album the day it was released and have been listening to it ever since and some parts still confound me.
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I peed next to Ian Mosley and Mark Kelly
Derek Sherinian probably stands 10 feet away from the urinal, shoots from downtown, and announces loudly that he's making history.
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Offline The Letter M

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Re: Rush v. Dirk, Pratt, & Lerxst
« Reply #6466 on: May 17, 2023, 07:41:30 PM »
Chiming in as another drummer who studied Neil quite rigorously when I began self-teaching drum kit. I had the 2 VHS set of "A Work In Progress", which came with booklets of his parts written out (not in their entirety, mind you, just bits of each song). I studied that VHS and those booklets SO much that I even eventually wrote out the whole tablature drum part for "Limbo" for the Rush Tablature Project many many years ago.

Neil's drumming on TFE is definitely challenging in a different way. I think it's something more along the lines that those parts were harder to play but they sounded simple, in contrast to his earlier drum work in the 70s and 80s, where they sounded hard, but were just parts that were fast and fairly simple if you practice enough, start slowly and then bring it up to speed. There are just a lot of rhythmically complex or interesting patterns on TFE that set it apart, drumming wise, than most of Neil's previous work, especially his fills and grooves. The then-new kit layout also opened up some interesting explorations as well for him.

---

Regarding HYF being Neil's favorite - I don't think I had heard that before, or if I did, I maybe laughed and shrugged it off, but maybe as I have been going back through the band's catalog chronologically (slowly), along with my complete Live Concert Albums series that I made many years ago, I may discover something new and interesting about HYF when I get around to it. There are some really good songs on there, like "Force Ten" and "Mission", and "Time Stand Still" is a classic (which I heard on the radio the other day while driving a work van!!), but I think it was interesting to note that on the HYF Tour, they began to play less and less of their new material than ever before. Up to the POW Tour, they had played almost every song off their new albums since the beginning - Some early Rush Tour sets I've seen say they played every song, and I don't see why they wouldn't have, same for Fly By Night, though the setlist.fm sets with "Rivendell" seem kind of suspicious. Of course, there's the often contested reliability that they played "The Fountain Of Lamneth", but from 2112 to POW, they played all but one or two songs from every album - "Lessons" and "Tears", "Madrigal", "Different Strings", "Witch Hunt" (it would appear two tours later), "Losing It" (it would appear decades later), and "Emotion Detector" were the only ones from that stretch that were never played. Then came along HYF, where they only made room for six of the ten new songs. I think the album might have fared better with fans had they given the tour a couple more songs to play live, but who knows. And of course, from there on out, up to Snakes & Arrows, they only ever did about half of each new album on that tour, but given their growing catalog and the need for regular staple songs in each set, I don't blame them for having to make sacrifices, like cutting out "Time & Motion" after a few times on the TFE Tour, or having to alternate a couple Vapor Trails songs on that tour rather than playing all of them each night.

---

And as for ranking by sector, let's see....
Sector 1 - 2112 = COS > FBN > Rush
Sector 2 - MP = PEW = HEMI = AFTK (I honestly would be VERY hard pressed to rank these, they're all 1a-1d)
Sector 3 - POW > SIG > GUP > HYF
Sector 4 - CP > TFE = Presto > RTB
Sector 5 - CA > VT > S&A

-Marc.
ATTENTION - HAKEN FANS! The HAKEN SURVIVOR 2023 has begun! You can check it out in the Polls/Survivors Forum!!!

Offline TAC

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Re: Rush v. Dirk, Pratt, & Lerxst
« Reply #6467 on: May 17, 2023, 07:52:21 PM »
You all make very valid points. I'm just saying from a technical aspect, some of the stuff on T4E is much harder for me to wrap my head around.

I get that.



Neil's drumming on TFE is definitely challenging in a different way. I think it's something more along the lines that those parts were harder to play but they sounded simple, in contrast to his earlier drum work in the 70s and 80s, where they sounded hard, but were just parts that were fast and fairly simple if you practice enough, start slowly and then bring it up to speed. There are just a lot of rhythmically complex or interesting patterns on TFE that set it apart, drumming wise, than most of Neil's previous work, especially his fills and grooves.

I hear what you're saying.
would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
Winger Theater Forums........or WTF.  ;D
TAC got a higher score than me in the electronic round? Honestly, can I just drop out now? :lol

Offline DTA

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Re: Rush v. Dirk, Pratt, & Lerxst
« Reply #6468 on: May 17, 2023, 09:05:24 PM »
TFE was the album where he started incorporating more rudiments too, doubles/paradiddles, etc which affects the sticking. The heavy part in the beginning of the title track is a good example of paradiddles between toms that is realistically more challenging than anything prior to PoW if you’ve not worked on paradiddles.

Offline jammindude

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Re: Rush v. Dirk, Pratt, & Lerxst
« Reply #6469 on: May 17, 2023, 10:39:52 PM »
I wonder if that’s why I always had a thing for Test for Echo.

I’ve never been a drummer, though I dreamed of being a drummer. But ever since I first heard Rush, the first thing that fascinated me was the interesting and complex rhythms. It was a 180° turnaround from all of the top 40 pop that I had been listening to before then. From that day forward, I became fascinated with complex and interesting rhythms. To me they became like a puzzle box that took me a while to figure out…but I had so much fun TRYING to figure it out.

But my brain has always tended to be more fascinated with intricate rhythmic patterns…not at the expense of melody, but more interesting than melody alone.
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Online Stadler

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Re: Rush v. Dirk, Pratt, & Lerxst
« Reply #6470 on: May 18, 2023, 08:27:16 AM »
I think it goes without saying as well that "harder to play does not equal better."

That, and I know for me on guitar some things are "hard" not because they are objectively difficult to play, but because for whatever reason it's "different" (I don't know the right word) than where my skill is.  If that makes sense. 

Offline billboy73

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Re: Rush v. Dirk, Pratt, & Lerxst
« Reply #6471 on: May 18, 2023, 08:40:52 AM »
I am one of those weird Rush fans that has Test for Echo in my top 5 Rush albums.  Alex's tone is great, Neil does some killer stuff (love watching the playthrough videos with some of these songs), and the music slaps.  Yes the lyrics to Virtuality are quite dated, and I don't mind the Dog Years lyrics.  It is just a really great album for me.  Also, the cover art is one of my faves.

Offline KevShmev

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Re: Rush v. Dirk, Pratt, & Lerxst
« Reply #6472 on: May 18, 2023, 08:46:20 AM »
Well, we already did the top Rush songs countdown last year, but maybe it is time to do the rank the albums countdown, yes?

Offline Mladen

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Re: Rush v. Dirk, Pratt, & Lerxst
« Reply #6473 on: May 18, 2023, 08:57:47 AM »
That's a great idea, man! I love it!  :tup

Offline King Postwhore

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Re: Rush v. Dirk, Pratt, & Lerxst
« Reply #6474 on: May 18, 2023, 09:11:11 AM »
I'd dig that Kev.
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