Rush v. Dirk, Pratt, & Lerxst

[Stadler]

Thank you M!  I think I'm going to recut mine as well.

Any ideas/thoughts on what songs are from what night?   The lack of Rush boots always surprised me; the fanbase (at least those that I know that were into the band back then) weren't averse to taping, and liked other bands that were heavily booted.  Interesting stuff.

[pg1067]

It seems like that "2112" was moved from fourth place to later in the album to better facilitate the album's vinyl sides.

They simply flip-flopped Fly by Night/In the Mood/Something for Nothing with Lakeside Park/2112.  Made for almost perfectly spaced album sides.

I wonder what they did with the extra 2 minutes of saved time from omitting The Oracle for all those years. Truly one of the most baffling decisions they ever made

A good guess was that it was too high to sing even with the drop tuning for Geddy every night.

Did they use drop tuning on ATWAS/the 2112 tour?  Nothing in Oracle is higher than Temples, Presentation or Soliloquy.

[Orbert]

I always figured they dropped Discovery and The Oracle because they're the mellower movements.  Discovery of course starts with tuning the guitar, which would be hard to translate to live performance, but I always missed The Oracle because it's kinda the whole point of the story, plus musically it includes one of the main themes.

[King Postwhore]

It seems like that "2112" was moved from fourth place to later in the album to better facilitate the album's vinyl sides.

They simply flip-flopped Fly by Night/In the Mood/Something for Nothing with Lakeside Park/2112.  Made for almost perfectly spaced album sides.

I wonder what they did with the extra 2 minutes of saved time from omitting The Oracle for all those years. Truly one of the most baffling decisions they ever made

A good guess was that it was too high to sing even with the drop tuning for Geddy every night.

Did they use drop tuning on ATWAS/the 2112 tour?  Nothing in Oracle is higher than Temples, Presentation or Soliloquy.

Sorry, I was talking about the latter tours.  Not early on. .  Listen to the version on Different Stages.  I was at that show in Mansfield, Mass.

[pg1067]

I always figured they dropped Discovery and The Oracle because they're the mellower movements.  Discovery of course starts with tuning the guitar, which would be hard to translate to live performance, but I always missed The Oracle because it's kinda the whole point of the story, plus musically it includes one of the main themes.

I was watching that Rush history/making of 2112 and Moving Pictures documentary over the weekend and was super impressed by how Alex made the act of tuning the guitar into something musical.  But yeah, I assumed that Discovery got truncated for the reason you mentioned, but dropping Oracle is hard to explain -- especially on a headlining show that those recorded for ATWAS.

[Stadler]

So.... what's the general consensus on the sound of the various CDs and their remasters?

To my knowledge, there are:

- the original releases
- the "Rush Remaster" series
- the Sector Box releases
- the various Deluxe versions (I think that's 2112 and Moving Pictures)
- the 40th Anniversary releases

I don't think I have any CD with all FIVE versions, though I think I have four of 2112 and Moving Pictures, and three of A Farewell To Kings.  I'm doing a sort of compare and there's no obvious "winner" to my ears.

[King Postwhore]

The remasters are worth it. All others are meh.

The newer ones for the live releases are worth it for the unreleased live cuts.

[ProfessorPeart]

So.... what's the general consensus on the sound of the various CDs and their remasters?

To my knowledge, there are:

- the original releases
- the "Rush Remaster" series
- the Sector Box releases
- the various Deluxe versions (I think that's 2112 and Moving Pictures)
- the 40th Anniversary releases

I don't think I have any CD with all FIVE versions, though I think I have four of 2112 and Moving Pictures, and three of A Farewell To Kings.  I'm doing a sort of compare and there's no obvious "winner" to my ears.

Anything done from the 2015 Abbey Road remasters. Everything was done originally just for vinyl. Of those, 2112, Farewell, Hemispheres and Permanent Waves have seen CD release. I back-filled everything before 2112 with the versions from HD Tracks which are also from the Abbey Road remasters. Although, I now see that HD Tracks made it a lot more difficult to discern between the versions. The old site layout would tell you what was from Abbey Road. Looks like if you find the ones that have a copyright of 2015 on them, that's probably the ones.

These are the best to me. I have also known many others to proclaim that as well. There is no clipping and the dynamic range is excellent. As Steven Wilson would say, you have to crank the volume on these because they breathe.

[Stadler]

I've heard that too, and I think that's my 2112, Moving Pictures and...  AFTK, if memory serves. 

I don't know that I'm going to replace the entire catalogue; do we have an opinion on the Remasters versus the Sector box sets?  The Sector sets seem a little hot, but they also seem a little "cleaner" to me.   For me, the Remasters blow away the original CD releases.

[ProfessorPeart]

I have the 1997 remasters of everything. I have no problem with them. When the Super Deluxe sets started to get released with the Abbey Road remasters I thought they sounded even better. I thought 2112 sounded better and that's when I went to HD Tracks and bought the Abbey Road editions of Rush through Caress. Right now, on my iPod and Plex server, I have the Abbey Road versions for Rush through Permanent and the 1997 remasters for Moving through Hold Your Fire. Everything after that is original expect for Vapor Trails. I have the Andy Van Dette remaster of that which is far superior to the original and was only available on HD Tracks. Seems to be gone now. Glad I have it as I did not like Bottrill's remix version.

From what I have read, the Sector ones are the worst.

[King Puppies and the Acid Guppies]

I have the 1997 remasters of everything. I have no problem with them. When the Super Deluxe sets started to get released with the Abbey Road remasters I thought they sounded even better. I thought 2112 sounded better and that's when I went to HD Tracks and bought the Abbey Road editions of Rush through Caress. Right now, on my iPod and Plex server, I have the Abbey Road versions for Rush through Permanent and the 1997 remasters for Moving through Hold Your Fire. Everything after that is original expect for Vapor Trails. I have the Andy Van Dette remaster of that which is far superior to the original and was only available on HD Tracks. Seems to be gone now. Glad I have it as I did not like Bottrill's remix version.

From what I have read, the Sector ones are the worst.

Tidal has all the Abbey Road versions. They do sound great! Although I thought the originals sounded pretty darn good too.

[King Puppies and the Acid Guppies]

I'm not sure if this was posted earlier in this thread. I'm also not sure how I missed this back in July, but here is a cover of Anthem with Danny Carey, Les Claypool, Claudio Sanchez, Bill Kelliher, and Steve Brodsky. They ripped this song!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fULwDbZ4iSU

[Setlist Scotty]

I'm not sure if this was posted earlier in this thread. I'm also not sure how I missed this back in July, but here is a cover of Anthem with Danny Carey, Les Claypool, Claudio Sanchez, Bill Kelliher, and Steve Brodsky. They ripped this song!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fULwDbZ4iSU

Saw it when it first came out, but nice to watch again. Dunno who the guy with the King Diamond face paint is (or Steve Brodsky for that matter), but definitely one of the better covers.

[ytserush]

So.... what's the general consensus on the sound of the various CDs and their remasters?

To my knowledge, there are:

- the original releases
- the "Rush Remaster" series
- the Sector Box releases
- the various Deluxe versions (I think that's 2112 and Moving Pictures)
- the 40th Anniversary releases

I don't think I have any CD with all FIVE versions, though I think I have four of 2112 and Moving Pictures, and three of A Farewell To Kings.  I'm doing a sort of compare and there's no obvious "winner" to my ears.

There is also the Mobile Fidelity Sound Labs Releases (2112, Permanent Waves, Moving Pictures and Signals)
Audio Fidelity Gold Discs (Hemispheres, Presto, Roll The Bones and Counterparts mastered by Kevin Gray)

Don't know about general consensus, but I prefer the 2015 McGee remasters where applicable and and all of the audiophile releases (except for the Mobile Fidelity 2112 which I consider to be kind of weak.)
In all other cases I probably prefer the Sector releases.

Worst of the lot for me are the 1997 Mercury Remasters.

I wish the whole catalog would be reissued with the 2015 McGees but I don't know if that will ever happen given the present state of affairs.

[ytserush]

So.... what's the general consensus on the sound of the various CDs and their remasters?

To my knowledge, there are:

- the original releases
- the "Rush Remaster" series
- the Sector Box releases
- the various Deluxe versions (I think that's 2112 and Moving Pictures)
- the 40th Anniversary releases

I don't think I have any CD with all FIVE versions, though I think I have four of 2112 and Moving Pictures, and three of A Farewell To Kings.  I'm doing a sort of compare and there's no obvious "winner" to my ears.

Anything done from the 2015 Abbey Road remasters. Everything was done originally just for vinyl. Of those, 2112, Farewell, Hemispheres and Permanent Waves have seen CD release. I back-filled everything before 2112 with the versions from HD Tracks which are also from the Abbey Road remasters. Although, I now see that HD Tracks made it a lot more difficult to discern between the versions. The old site layout would tell you what was from Abbey Road. Looks like if you find the ones that have a copyright of 2015 on them, that's probably the ones.

These are the best to me. I have also known many others to proclaim that as well. There is no clipping and the dynamic range is excellent. As Steven Wilson would say, you have to crank the volume on these because they breathe.

I'd imagine that the HD/Hi Res downloads are even better than 2015 CD/vinyl releases, but that's not something that interests me since there is little certainty about what you're buying.

[ytserush]

I have the 1997 remasters of everything. I have no problem with them. When the Super Deluxe sets started to get released with the Abbey Road remasters I thought they sounded even better. I thought 2112 sounded better and that's when I went to HD Tracks and bought the Abbey Road editions of Rush through Caress. Right now, on my iPod and Plex server, I have the Abbey Road versions for Rush through Permanent and the 1997 remasters for Moving through Hold Your Fire. Everything after that is original expect for Vapor Trails. I have the Andy Van Dette remaster of that which is far superior to the original and was only available on HD Tracks. Seems to be gone now. Glad I have it as I did not like Bottrill's remix version.

From what I have read, the Sector ones are the worst.

The problem with the '97s for me is that there's not enough low end and the high end overwhelms everything beginning with Permanent Waves and gets progressively worse until  A Show of Hands. Rush through Hemispheres is not optimal either but at least tolerable.  The Sectors have a low end clarity that isn't on anything else except for the audiophile releases. But the 2015's would be my go to in most cases so far.

[Stadler]

I have the 1997 remasters of everything. I have no problem with them. When the Super Deluxe sets started to get released with the Abbey Road remasters I thought they sounded even better. I thought 2112 sounded better and that's when I went to HD Tracks and bought the Abbey Road editions of Rush through Caress. Right now, on my iPod and Plex server, I have the Abbey Road versions for Rush through Permanent and the 1997 remasters for Moving through Hold Your Fire. Everything after that is original expect for Vapor Trails. I have the Andy Van Dette remaster of that which is far superior to the original and was only available on HD Tracks. Seems to be gone now. Glad I have it as I did not like Bottrill's remix version.

From what I have read, the Sector ones are the worst.

The problem with the '97s for me is that there's not enough low end and the high end overwhelms everything beginning with Permanent Waves and gets progressively worse until  A Show of Hands. Rush through Hemispheres is not optimal either but at least tolerable.  The Sectors have a low end clarity that isn't on anything else except for the audiophile releases. But the 2015's would be my go to in most cases so far.

So... the question was for my ripping project.  I'm putting all my CDs to harddrive; I'm keeping different versions of songs - rerecordings, remixings, live recordings - but not all the different remasters.   So I was trying to decide with Rush. Here's what I decided on, after playing them on my home system at volume:

Rush through Caress Of Steel:  The original Mercury releases.  (The choice was between that and the Sector remasters)
2112 and A Farewell To Kings:  the 2015 remasters that came with the Deluxe versions (The choice was between the originals (2112), the remasters (AFTK), the deluxe versions (2112), the 40th versions (both) and the Sector versions (both)).
Hemispheres: The Remaster (the choice was between the Remaster and the Sector set)
Permanent Waves:  The original "atom" release (The choice was between the original and the Sector release)
Moving Pictures:  The 2011 remaster (The choice was between the original "atom" release, the Sector release, the 2011 deluxe version)

For the two live records, I went with the Remaster version, because of the additional tracks (the choice was between the Remaster or the Sector version; I honestly didn't really hear much difference between the two versions for both sets)

I still have to listen to Signals through Power Windows (the choice is the original W. German "atom" version and the Sector version) and A Show Of Hands (original versus the Sector version).  I'm leaning to the original versions.  The Sector sets sound pretty good on my stereo, but they are a shade "bright" for me.   Especially with the first three releases, there was a warmth to them, and the Sector ones seemed to "tax" my ears a bit at higher volume in a way the originals didn't.

I didn't mention Hold Your Fire; I'm keeping both because the mixes are different.

[jammindude]

The self titled original Mercury release is a festering pile of dog snot.

Some idiot tried to fade out the tape hiss at the end of what you’re doing, and his fade back in comes in late.

When the remaster came out and they had fixed it, I celebrated by chucking the old one away.

[Stadler]

The self titled original Mercury release is a festering pile of dog snot.

Some idiot tried to fade out the tape hiss at the end of what you’re doing, and his fade back in comes in late.

When the remaster came out and they had fixed it, I celebrated by chucking the old one away.

I don't recall that; I made the decision based on Here Again and Before And After, my two favorite songs on the record (by a long shot).   

I was running an errand in my truck listening to this the other day and spacing out and I had this "daydream" of the band rerecording the album with Neil redoing the lyrics, making the theme of the album "identity" and "self" (given that it's a self-titled record).   A man can dream....then again the phone book would be better than "Hey baby, it’s a quarter to eight, I feel I’m in the mood. Hey baby, the hour is late, I feel I’ve got to move."  I'm an old man and "eight" isn't "late". 

[jammindude]

The ReDISCovery boxed set re-release of that album...I’m pretty sure comes with a needle drop flat vinyl transfer IIRC. I wonder how that compares.

[King Postwhore]

There is a line on the Signals gold disc that was missing.  I think it was on The Weapon. It's been a while since I listened to it.

[jammindude]

There is a line on the Signals gold disc that was missing.  I think it was on The Weapon. It's been a while since I listened to it.

I read somewhere that there was a bit of confusion after that release. MFSL were handed the tapes and did the transfer. No one even thought to check. No one had any idea that apparently something had been added AFTER the fact.

Not sure that mystery was ever solved.

[Stadler]

There is a line on the Signals gold disc that was missing.  I think it was on The Weapon. It's been a while since I listened to it.

"And the things that he fears, are a weapon to be held against him."; it's about 3:15 in.  (I know this because as I noted I've been comparing versions over the last week or two.)

[KevShmev]

Yep, you beat me to it.  I noticed that right away when I got the Signals gold disc back in the 90's. The Weapon was my favorite song from Signals back then, and it felt incomplete without that line.

[King Postwhore]

My brother & cousin missed it.  I was screaming, "Play that back!"  You get that something was missing feeling.

[Setlist Scotty]

There is a line on the Signals gold disc that was missing.  I think it was on The Weapon. It's been a while since I listened to it.

I read somewhere that there was a bit of confusion after that release. MFSL were handed the tapes and did the transfer. No one even thought to check. No one had any idea that apparently something had been added AFTER the fact.

Not sure that mystery was ever solved.

That's not actually what it was. For whatever reason, that line was not sung during the original sessions and was added at a later stage, which is why it wasn't on the master tapes that MFSL was given.

Here's the explanation from someone who contacted them:
https://www.hometheaterforum.com/community/threads/are-these-good-mfsls.101296/

If you are a fellow Rush hound, you may want to go ahead and pick up Mercury's remaster, as there is a lyric 'missing' in the bridge after the second chorus in "The Weapon." (Then) Mobile Fidelity engineer Krieg Wunderlich and (then) director of product development Joe Bermudez explained in response to a letter I sent about this issue that Ged singing "And the things that he fears/Are a weapon to be held against him..." in the bridge was not on the original multitrack master, but rather was added to the 2-track mixdown tape in post production. Ergo, since MoFi is all about the original master, that lyric does not appear on the Signals Ultradisc.

[King Postwhore]

Yup.  That is correct.  I always wondered why it wasn't originally sung on the sessions.

[Stadler]

So I'm watching "Exit...Stage Left", the video.  it's always a treat to see the guys play, but what was it with bands in the early 80's, and the "arty" concert films?  In look, in feel, in format, this is like watching Genesis' Three Sides Live.

[pg1067]

So I'm watching "Exit...Stage Left", the video.  it's always a treat to see the guys play, but what was it with bands in the early 80's, and the "arty" concert films?  In look, in feel, in format, this is like watching Genesis' Three Sides Live.

I don't know, but that was such a hard video for me to find.  I remember looking and looking and finally finding a place that didn't have it in stock but would order it for me.  I had to put down a deposit, and it finally arrived about a month later.  I can't tell you how many Saturday nights my best friend and I spent drinking beer and watching that tape (along with several others).  At one point, the little "door" on the VHS tape broke, and my VCR at the time wouldn't play it.  I had to get a blank tape, open it up and remove the tape, and then transfer the tape of ESL into the other housing.  It was like I was doing a heart transplant.  I kept that videotape until Replay x3 was released in the mid-2000s.  I still have the Through the Camera Eye and Chronicles VHS tapes (the former has never been re-released on a digital format (but was released on laserdisc in addition to VHS), and I also have the latter on DVD).

[ReaperKK]

So I'm watching "Exit...Stage Left", the video.  it's always a treat to see the guys play, but what was it with bands in the early 80's, and the "arty" concert films?  In look, in feel, in format, this is like watching Genesis' Three Sides Live.

I've never seen Exit...Stage left but it is arty in the way Metropolis live from NYC is arty?

[Stadler]

So I'm watching "Exit...Stage Left", the video.  it's always a treat to see the guys play, but what was it with bands in the early 80's, and the "arty" concert films?  In look, in feel, in format, this is like watching Genesis' Three Sides Live.

I don't know, but that was such a hard video for me to find.  I remember looking and looking and finally finding a place that didn't have it in stock but would order it for me.  I had to put down a deposit, and it finally arrived about a month later.  I can't tell you how many Saturday nights my best friend and I spent drinking beer and watching that tape (along with several others).  At one point, the little "door" on the VHS tape broke, and my VCR at the time wouldn't play it.  I had to get a blank tape, open it up and remove the tape, and then transfer the tape of ESL into the other housing.  It was like I was doing a heart transplant.  I kept that videotape until Replay x3 was released in the mid-2000s.  I still have the Through the Camera Eye and Chronicles VHS tapes (the former has never been re-released on a digital format (but was released on laserdisc in addition to VHS), and I also have the latter on DVD).

I will say this, though:  I wasn't kidding.  It's always a treat to watch them play.   The live versions of Xanadu and Red Barchetta from that tape are ESSENTIAL viewing.   It's stunning to me how three guys make that much "noise".  I didn't see that tour, but I wish I did. 

[pg1067]

So I'm watching "Exit...Stage Left", the video.  it's always a treat to see the guys play, but what was it with bands in the early 80's, and the "arty" concert films?  In look, in feel, in format, this is like watching Genesis' Three Sides Live.

I've never seen Exit...Stage left but it is arty in the way Metropolis live from NYC is arty?

I'm gonna say no.  It's a similar distinction as between, say, a soap opera (LSFNY) and an Episode of CSI (ESL).  The sorts of "arty" effects that were used in LSFNY (2000) didn't exist when ESL was produced (1981/82).  Also, one of the biggest complaints about the ESL video is the lighting.  There are several very dark shots.  IMO, however, that makes for a more natural feel.

I will say this, though:  I wasn't kidding.  It's always a treat to watch them play.   The live versions of Xanadu and Red Barchetta from that tape are ESSENTIAL viewing.   It's stunning to me how three guys make that much "noise".  I didn't see that tour, but I wish I did.

You and me both!  One of my favorite shots ever is when you see Alex seemlessly switch between the 6 and 12-string necks in the middle of Xanadu (just past the 7:30 mark here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VuHS-gjMiVw ).

[Cool Chris]

https://www.hometheaterforum.com/community/threads/are-these-good-mfsls.101296/

Holy shit! When I was first getting in to the internet back in the late 90s, my number #1 site was a forum dedicated to Home Theater. It was my home page, the first site I visited when I logged on (this is dial-up days), the last site I visited before I signed off. It was my dtf.org. There were great discussions about not only home theater gear, of which I learned a ton, but also about music, film, and there was an equivalent to our "General Discussion" subforum. I do not recall the exact URL, but I think that was it. Following that link looks totally different than I remember, but of course it would 20+ years later, if that is the same site. And if it is, that is the biggest nostalgia kick I've had in ages!

[Architeuthis]

So I'm watching "Exit...Stage Left", the video.  it's always a treat to see the guys play, but what was it with bands in the early 80's, and the "arty" concert films?  In look, in feel, in format, this is like watching Genesis' Three Sides Live.

I've never seen Exit...Stage left but it is arty in the way Metropolis live from NYC is arty?

I'm gonna say no.  It's a similar distinction as between, say, a soap opera (LSFNY) and an Episode of CSI (ESL).  The sorts of "arty" effects that were used in LSFNY (2000) didn't exist when ESL was produced (1981/82).  Also, one of the biggest complaints about the ESL video is the lighting.  There are several very dark shots.  IMO, however, that makes for a more natural feel.

I will say this, though:  I wasn't kidding.  It's always a treat to watch them play.   The live versions of Xanadu and Red Barchetta from that tape are ESSENTIAL viewing.   It's stunning to me how three guys make that much "noise".  I didn't see that tour, but I wish I did.

You and me both!  One of my favorite shots ever is when you see Alex seemlessly switch between the 6 and 12-string necks in the middle of Xanadu (just past the 7:30 mark here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VuHS-gjMiVw ).

That is incredible! Thanks for posting that link, they were all on fire.    

[ytserush]

So I'm watching "Exit...Stage Left", the video.  it's always a treat to see the guys play, but what was it with bands in the early 80's, and the "arty" concert films?  In look, in feel, in format, this is like watching Genesis' Three Sides Live.

I don't know, but that was such a hard video for me to find.  I remember looking and looking and finally finding a place that didn't have it in stock but would order it for me.  I had to put down a deposit, and it finally arrived about a month later.  I can't tell you how many Saturday nights my best friend and I spent drinking beer and watching that tape (along with several others).  At one point, the little "door" on the VHS tape broke, and my VCR at the time wouldn't play it.  I had to get a blank tape, open it up and remove the tape, and then transfer the tape of ESL into the other housing.  It was like I was doing a heart transplant.  I kept that videotape until Replay x3 was released in the mid-2000s.  I still have the Through the Camera Eye and Chronicles VHS tapes (the former has never been re-released on a digital format (but was released on laserdisc in addition to VHS), and I also have the latter on DVD).

Still have those VHS and Laser Discs ( and DVD. Missing Exit... on laser disc) There are still a few studio videos that never made it to DVD (Most of Through The Camera Eye has been released on various other DVDs.)