Rush v. Dirk, Pratt, & Lerxst

[TAC]

Grand Designs is not catchy.

[The Walrus]

Grand Designs is not catchy.

Listening to the keyboards bouncing around with that simple melody isn't catchy enough? Or this part of the singing:

"Against the run of the mill
Swimming against the stream
Life in two dimensions is a mass production scheme"

isn't catchy to you? The rhyming and meter of the lyrics? Doesn't stick on the brain?

[KevShmev]

The last few live albums are a difficult listen for me.  Geddy's vocals were fine at the live shows simply because it's easy to get caught up in the euphoria of a live show and overlook them, but to revisit them on the live albums repeatedly is just not doable.

Red Sector A stands out to me as the one Rush song that was always significantly better live than its studio original. 

[TAC]

The last few live albums are a difficult listen for me.  Geddy's vocals were fine at the live shows simply because it's easy to get caught up in the euphoria of a live show and overlook them, but to revisit them on the live albums repeatedly is just not doable.

I bought R40, mainly because of the setlist, and vocally, it's practically unlistenable.

Red Sector A stands out to me as the one Rush song that was always significantly better live than its studio original. 

Definitely.

Listening to the keyboards bouncing around with that simple melody isn't catchy enough? Or this part of the singing:

"Against the run of the mill
Swimming against the stream
Life in two dimensions is a mass production scheme"

isn't catchy to you? The rhyming and meter of the lyrics? Doesn't stick on the brain?

I generally find the keyboards distracting, and that passage you cite is definitely a good one.

[The Walrus]

Question for the hardcore Rush fans who know the live history well: the 80s songs, I'm thinking particularly from the trilogy of Signals - GUP - PW, did they continue to play those songs live in the late 80s? The 90s? Any hope for the 2000s, maybe even the final tour? And if so how did they do the synth sounds; were they on tape or was Geddy playing a board for some parts? Just wondering if the actual 'sound' of the keyboard patches changed over the years, if they played the songs live at all.

[King Postwhore]

As the tours went on, more were sampled. Some songs like Subdavisions are just playable on the keys. 

[KevShmev]

I am pretty sure Geddy always played the middle part of Tom Sawyer live on the keys, as well as the aforementioned Subdivisions, plus Red Sector A was always the one song that he played just keys while doing the bass with foot pedals; Scars was done that way as well, but was only ever played on the Presto tour.  Seems like main lead parts he would play live, but the flourishes and textural stuff he would usually trigger.  The lead stuff in Mission I am pretty sure he played live on the S&A tour.

[jingle.boy]

Wow... I missed a fast paced discussion on PoW.  I will say this, I wasn't 'in' to much of the Signals - HYF era.  I loved everything from A Show of Hands and Chronicles (which were the two albums that were ultimately my gateway to Rush), and left it at that for the most part.  It wasn't until the mid '00s that I actually picked up those albums (in the 90s I was content with ASOH + Chronicles for that era, not to mention broke/university, then met mrs.jingle and started the jingle.family).  I didn't really 'get' the rest of the songs enough to compel me to pick up those albums, and frankly, I still think Signals, p/g and HYF are very inconsistent.  PoW is consistently good / great.  Big Money - I love the drum breakdowns ... especially the one in the middle of the guitar solo.  Plus - MOAR COWBELL!!!. Manhattan Project and Marathon are on the Top 25 Rush list.  Territories.... I just love the beat that Neil keeps, along with the guitar licks/riffs.  And there is nothing wrong with the lyrics at all.  Middletown Dreams... it's the chorus that appeals most to me.  Mystic Rhythms has a sensual yet haunting vibe to it that I really enjoy - and the drumming is so reminiscent of Witch Hunt.  In fact, most of Neil's drumming on this album is so simple-yet-complex, it's hard not to enjoy every beat, fill and crash.

Grand Designs and Emotion Detector are the lesser two tracks on the bunch.  They're good, but nothing that wows me.

[Cool Chris]

As much as I put down mid-80s Rush, I haven't given those albums a good listen in a long, long time. Will try to do so soon.

Steve Lillywhite

This sounds like a guy tried to come up with a cool porn star name for himself and failed miserably.

[ProfessorPeart]

Question for the hardcore Rush fans who know the live history well: the 80s songs, I'm thinking particularly from the trilogy of Signals - GUP - PW, did they continue to play those songs live in the late 80s? The 90s? Any hope for the 2000s, maybe even the final tour? And if so how did they do the synth sounds; were they on tape or was Geddy playing a board for some parts? Just wondering if the actual 'sound' of the keyboard patches changed over the years, if they played the songs live at all.

Well, here are the first 8 songs from the first set of the Clockwork Angels show I saw:

Subdivisions
The Big Money
Force Ten
Grand Designs
The Body Electric
Territories
The Analog Kid
Bravado

Geddy and Alex always had a plethora of pedals and would trigger things all concert long.

[wolfking]

I had a good listen to Hemispheres and Kings and I enjoyed them a lot.  Not the biggest early Rush fan but these were really good.  It still affirms that 80's Rush are the Rush for me.

[HOF]

Grand Designs and Emotion Detector are the lesser two tracks on the bunch.  They're good, but nothing that wows me.

Man, I love Emotion Detector. One of my favorite Peart lyrics and sonically it’s a really unique Rush track. Grand Designs, saccharine though it may be, is pure unmitigated joy. 

[Lethean]

Question for the hardcore Rush fans who know the live history well: the 80s songs, I'm thinking particularly from the trilogy of Signals - GUP - PW, did they continue to play those songs live in the late 80s? The 90s? Any hope for the 2000s, maybe even the final tour? And if so how did they do the synth sounds; were they on tape or was Geddy playing a board for some parts? Just wondering if the actual 'sound' of the keyboard patches changed over the years, if they played the songs live at all.

Well, here are the first 8 songs from the first set of the Clockwork Angels show I saw:

Subdivisions
The Big Money
Force Ten
Grand Designs
The Body Electric
Territories
The Analog Kid
Bravado

Geddy and Alex always had a plethora of pedals and would trigger things all concert long.

I was going to post about that.  I was so excited because I got to see a bunch of songs I'd never seen live before.   That was such a cool set.  Plus they played Manhattan Project in the 2nd set.

[SoundscapeMN]

I cannot get Emotion Detector out of my head right now.

[Architeuthis]

I cannot get Emotion Detector out of my head right now.

Because it's burried deep in our hearts!

I love the ripping bass line during the guitar solo! 

[Stadler]

Wow... I missed a fast paced discussion on PoW.  I will say this, I wasn't 'in' to much of the Signals - HYF era.  I loved everything from A Show of Hands and Chronicles (which were the two albums that were ultimately my gateway to Rush), and left it at that for the most part.  It wasn't until the mid '00s that I actually picked up those albums (in the 90s I was content with ASOH + Chronicles for that era, not to mention broke/university, then met mrs.jingle and started the jingle.family).  I didn't really 'get' the rest of the songs enough to compel me to pick up those albums, and frankly, I still think Signals, p/g and HYF are very inconsistent.  PoW is consistently good / great.  Big Money - I love the drum breakdowns ... especially the one in the middle of the guitar solo.  Plus - MOAR COWBELL!!!. Manhattan Project and Marathon are on the Top 25 Rush list.  Territories.... I just love the beat that Neil keeps, along with the guitar licks/riffs.  And there is nothing wrong with the lyrics at all.  Middletown Dreams... it's the chorus that appeals most to me.  Mystic Rhythms has a sensual yet haunting vibe to it that I really enjoy - and the drumming is so reminiscent of Witch Hunt.  In fact, most of Neil's drumming on this album is so simple-yet-complex, it's hard not to enjoy every beat, fill and crash.

Grand Designs and Emotion Detector are the lesser two tracks on the bunch.  They're good, but nothing that wows me.

Rush from Exit Stage Left to A Show Of Hands is a baffling band for me.  Baffling.   (Though, with more consideration, their entire career is like that).   The only constant?  Up through Different Stages, the album immediately after a live album is uniformly STELLAR (AFTK, Signals, Presto, all EXCELLENT). 

But, for me:

Signals:  AMAZING
p/g: Modern era low point.  Pffft.
Power Windows: Not quite as good as Signals, but strong, stronger than p/g (if only p/g had the same sound as PW)
HYF:  Not quite as good as Signals, but but strong, stronger than p//g (and always a record I like a lot more when I listen to it as opposed to when I think about it.  Prime Mover, babay!)

The best "period" for Rush for me is the Second Era (AFTK through MP; three of the four are almost perfect records), this Third Era is probably the second strongest for me, though the First Era is close.   The Fourth Era is weakest by far (Presto is the only record that is really consistently amazing to me; I can take or leave RTB, TFE, though I like most of Counterparts).   I havent' really assimilated the Fifth Era in yet, to be honest.  I don't know where that fits, because I just haven't listened to VT and CA enough.

[romdrums]

Power Windows is a top 3 Rush album for me, and the Rush album I listen to the most.  I think Permanent Waves and Moving Pictures are better albums, but I have to want to listen to them.  Power Windows is an album I can put on at any time, in any mood (listening to it right now, as a matter of fact).  I like the journey it takes me on.  From a textural standpoint, it's their most interesting record, and it's where they really hit the right balance of horizontal and vertical complexity in the music.  Also, I'm one of those people who really likes how they used the synths and keyboards on this record.  For me, it's both of its time and timeless.

[TAC]

But, for me:

Signals:  AMAZING
p/g: Modern era low point.  Pffft.
Power Windows: Not quite as good as Signals, but strong, stronger than p/g (if only p/g had the same sound as PW)
HYF:  Not quite as good as Signals, but but strong, stronger than p//g (and always a record I like a lot more when I listen to it as opposed to when I think about it.  Prime Mover, babay!)

The best "period" for Rush for me is the Second Era (AFTK through MP; three of the four are almost perfect records), this Third Era is probably the second strongest for me, though the First Era is close.   The Fourth Era is weakest by far (Presto is the only record that is really consistently amazing to me; I can take or leave RTB, TFE, though I like most of Counterparts).   I havent' really assimilated the Fifth Era in yet, to be honest.  I don't know where that fits, because I just haven't listened to VT and CA enough.

I'm pretty much in agreement with most of that. I wish PW had GUP's sound and not the other way around. PW is too dense with keyboards. There's just too much to dig through for me to find the song.

GUP is much more immediate to me, although three of the songs absolutely blow. (Red Lenses, Kid Gloves, The Body Electric)

[Stadler]

But, for me:

Signals:  AMAZING
p/g: Modern era low point.  Pffft.
Power Windows: Not quite as good as Signals, but strong, stronger than p/g (if only p/g had the same sound as PW)
HYF:  Not quite as good as Signals, but but strong, stronger than p//g (and always a record I like a lot more when I listen to it as opposed to when I think about it.  Prime Mover, babay!)

The best "period" for Rush for me is the Second Era (AFTK through MP; three of the four are almost perfect records), this Third Era is probably the second strongest for me, though the First Era is close.   The Fourth Era is weakest by far (Presto is the only record that is really consistently amazing to me; I can take or leave RTB, TFE, though I like most of Counterparts).   I havent' really assimilated the Fifth Era in yet, to be honest.  I don't know where that fits, because I just haven't listened to VT and CA enough.

I'm pretty much in agreement with most of that. I wish PW had GUP's sound and not the other way around. PW is too dense with keyboards. There's just too much to dig through for me to find the song.

GUP is much more immediate to me, although three of the songs absolutely blow. (Red Lenses, Kid Gloves, The Body Electric)

I dislike Red Lenses and Kid Gloves too.   The problem for GUP for me is the sound of the drums.  You've got the greatest living - at the time - drummer in rock and you neuter him with that electronic sound?    Listen to Red Sector A, when Geddy sings "I hear the sound of gunfire at the prison gates"; that fill should be MASSIVE, it should BE that sound of gunfire, it should move you... and yet, it's this tinny, sterile electronic sound that even Duran Duran's Roger Taylor would say "nah, mate, that's naff.". 

I think if they re-recorded the drum tracks to reflect something more akin to the Neil Peart sound, it would resonate more with me, as the songs themselves aren't horrible (and Alex plays his Andy Summers titties off on that record). 

[TAC]

I agree with you about the drums, but unfortunately, that's where they were at the time, and yes, the entire sound of their 80's albums were put offs for me.

For my tastes, I just find Power Windows the worst of the bunch in that regard. I much prefer the live versions of the PW tracks, especially on the later live albums.

[Fritzinger]

Stop with the 80s-Rush bashing this instant!

Rush were the only 70s progband who managed to translate their style into the 80s, combine their characteristic sound with influences of that time and still sound like themselves. Even when they released poppier songs, those were still packed with great melodies, interesting and ever-evolving arrangements and stunning performances!

[Dublagent66]

I suppose Power Windows could be considered "over produced" and it is heavy on the keyboards, but everything works.  The compositions and arrangements are beautiful and it all just sounds really good.  I love everything about 80's Rush.

Stop with the 80s-Rush bashing this instant!

Rush were the only 70s progband who managed to translate their style into the 80s, combine their characteristic sound with influences of that time and still sound like themselves. Even when they released poppier songs, those were still packed with great melodies, interesting and ever-evolving arrangements and stunning performances!

Very well said and it's the translations from one era to the next that made Rush such an interesting band.  I believe some guy eluded to that in the "Beyond the Lighted Stage" documentary.

[The Walrus]

It is always a good time to rank Rush records. I did this by ranking my top 5, then the bottom 3, then filled in the rest accordingly... inb4 the AFTK and 2112 lovers roast me. I sleep

1. Power Windows
2. Hemispheres
3. Counterparts
4. Caress of Steel
5. Permanent Waves
6. Fly By Night
7. Moving Pictures
8. Signals
9. Grace Under Pressure
10. Clockwork Angels
11. Rush
12. Roll the Bones
13. Vapor Trails
14. A Farewell to Kings
15. 2112
16. Snakes & Arrows
17. Presto
18. Hold Your Fire
19. Test For Echo

[Stadler]

Stop with the 80s-Rush bashing this instant!

Rush were the only 70s progband who managed to translate their style into the 80s, combine their characteristic sound with influences of that time and still sound like themselves. Even when they released poppier songs, those were still packed with great melodies, interesting and ever-evolving arrangements and stunning performances!

You're right about Rush themselves (but I'm going to fistfight you on the "only band" part, and both Genesis and Yes are my cornermen on that.  ). 

[Stadler]

It is always a good time to rank Rush records. I did this by ranking my top 5, then the bottom 3, then filled in the rest accordingly... inb4 the AFTK and 2112 lovers roast me. I sleep

1. Power Windows
2. Hemispheres
3. Counterparts
4. Caress of Steel
5. Permanent Waves
6. Fly By Night
7. Moving Pictures
8. Signals
9. Grace Under Pressure
10. Clockwork Angels
11. Rush
12. Roll the Bones
13. Vapor Trails
14. A Farewell to Kings
15. 2112
16. Snakes & Arrows
17. Presto
18. Hold Your Fire
19. Test For Echo

1. Hemispheres
2. A Farewell To Kings
3. Moving Pictures
4. Signals
5. Presto
6. Fly By Night
7. Hold Your Fire
8. Caress Of Steel
9. 2112
10. Counterparts
11. Snakes And Arrows
12. Power Windows
13. Permanent Waves
14. Clockwork Angels
15. Vapor Trails
16. Roll The Bones
17. Rush
18. Grace Under Pressure
19. Test For Echo

[T-ski]

I just want to join in on the fun and say Power Windows is great and TAC is wrong. 

[romdrums]

Since we're ranking Rush albums, this is how I would rank them after listening to their whole discography this past week:

1. Permanent Waves
2. Moving Pictures
3. Power Windows
4. Hemispheres
5. Clockwork Angels
6. Presto
7. A Farewell to Kings
8. Signals
9. Hold Your Fire
10. Grace Under Pressure
11. Fly By Night
12. Counterparts
13. Vapor Trails
14. Snakes and Arrows
15. 2112
16. Test for Echo
17. Roll the Bones
18. Rush
19. Caress of Steel

[fadetoblackdude7]

1. Power Windows
2. Hemispheres
3. Moving Pictures
4. Permanent Waves
5. Clockwork Angels
6. A Farewell To Kings
7. 2112
8. Grace Under Pressure
9. Signals
10. Counterparts
11. Hold Your Fire
12. Presto
13. Roll The Bones
14. Snakes & Arrows
15. Rush
16. Fly By Night
17. Vapor Trails
18. Caress Of Steel
19. Test For Echo

[pg1067]

A lot has been said since I posted yesterday.

Regarding Territories, the music is, IMO, subpar in every way.  I think the "better beer" line is pretty dumb, but the lyrics as a whole are not.  That said, I don't think they're anything special either.  They make a clear point, but that's really about it, and they don't tell any real story.

I don't really lump Signals in with GUP through HYF.  Stylistically, it belongs with PW and MP a lot more than the albums that came after it.  The biggest problem with Signals was its production, which is pretty glaring considering it followed MP, which I consider to be one of the best (if not THE best) produced albums of all time.  Keyboards are everywhere on Moving Pictures.  None of the seven songs on MP is lacking for keys, so their ubiquitousness on Signals shouldn't have surprised anyone.  The issue was that the guitars got buried -- not necessarily to make room for keys, but they're just not there in some places.

Everything changed with GUP, and the most obvious thing to point to is the lack of Terry Brown.  I've written a ton about the obtrusive keyboard sounds that were being used on GUP through HYF, the harsh, tinny guitar on GUP, Neil's overuse and ineffective use of electronic percussion, and Geddy's decision to play Steinberger and Wal basses.  All of those things made those three albums a mess.  The other thing that starkly marks that era is Geddy's significant change in singing style.  The songwriting also wasn't as good, and I can't explain that, but there are a number of good songs:  The Enemy Within, Between the Wheels, Manhattan Project, Marathon and Mission (and, to a slightly lesser extent, Kid Gloves).  There are a few other songs that probably would have been much better with better performance and production, and the two I point to are The Body Electric and Red Sector A.  I think they (along with Red Lenses) are the worst songs on GUP by a wide margin.  However, the 21st Century live performances of RSA sound SIGNIFICANTLY better than the album version.  Also, a band I like a LOT called YYNOT does a live version of The Body Electric that is 100x better than the GUP version.

As far as ranking albums, I always have a very tough time, but I can usually put them in tiers

God Level Tier
Hemispheres
Moving Pictures
Permanent Waves
A Farewell to Kings
(I can't really pick a favorite from any of these albums, and there's not a single bad song on any of these albums)

Minor Deity Level Tier
Signals (too many high points to single out just one; The Weapon is the weak link)
2112 (obviously, the title track is the best song; Lessons is probably the "low point")

Not Sure What to Call This Tier Tier, but These Are Both REALLY Good
Fly By Night (lots of high points; Rivendell usually gets skipped -- especially when I'm driving since falling asleep at the wheel would be a bad idea)
Presto (Available Light might be Rush's best post-Signals song and is criminally underrated; many other high points; Scars, Stupidconductor and Hand over Fist should be stricken from history)

The Close but Not Quite Tier
Caress of Steel (No One at the Bridge, Bastille Day and the Necromancer are the high points; Going Bald is the low point)

21st Century Tier
The best songs on VT, S&A and CA would make a great album, but all three have a significant amount of filler.  This era also brought yodeling Geddy.  Also, I don't get all the love for The Garden (One Little Victory, Ghost Rider, Vapor Trail, Earthshine, Far Cry, Armor and Sword, TMMB, Hope, Caravan, BU2B and Headlong Flight are the standout songs).

The Nice Start Tier
Rush (Working Man, as overplayed as it has been, never fails to impress; side 1 other than Finding My Way is forgettable)

Adult Contemporary Tier
I dug a lot of Counterparts and Test for Echo when they were released, but I find myself rarely going back to them.  More memorable tracks on T4E than Counterparts.  I think I'm due for a refresher on both of these.

What Were They Thinking Tier
GUP, POW and HYF (see above)

Thanks but No Thanks Tier
RTB (so disappointing after the turnaround that Presto represented; Big Wheel and Ghost are probably the only high points)

[jingle.boy]

although three of the songs absolutely blow. (Red Lenses, Kid Gloves, The Body Electric)

That's the smartest thing you've said all thread.

[The Walrus]

All three of those songs are good.

[jingle.boy]

All three of those songs are good.

Yeah, and AFTK and 2112 are 2 of their worst 6 albums.

[The Walrus]

All three of those songs are good.

Yeah, and AFTK and 2112 are 2 of their worst 6 albums.

I know you're poking fun, but yeah. They're boring albums. ZZZanadu. Fight me, O Canaduh. 

[Fritzinger]

All three of those songs are good.

Yeah, and AFTK and 2112 are 2 of their worst 6 albums.

I actually rank 2112 among their weaker albums  I like Test For Echo better than 2112, and I absolutely mean that.

[Dublagent66]

I don't get all the love for The Garden

Actually, it's quite simple.  The Garden is a beautifully written song.  Lyrically and musically.  That's why people love it.  Hope that helps. 

All three of those songs are good.

Yeah, and AFTK and 2112 are 2 of their worst 6 albums.

I actually rank 2112 among their weaker albums  I like Test For Echo better than 2112, and I absolutely mean that.

I'll take your word for it on that one.