Rush v. Dirk, Pratt, & Lerxst

[HOF]

Part 2 of Martin Popoff's trilogy came out this week, Limelight, which covers Rush through the 80's. So far an enjoyable read, yet oddly enough it's nearly all info that I've read previously over the years whether it be from interviews, tour books, or Wandering The Face of The Earth. I just finished the ESL chapter and I'm hoping there's fresh info I haven't seen before detailing my favorite run of their albums, GuP through HYF.

The PeW chapter bugged me though. I always get annoyed with the notion that Rush has tons of long songs and PeW is the first album where they finally write shorter, catchier songs. They only have about 8 songs that I would consider long by 70's standards, and were writing shorter catchy, intricate songs as early as Anthem.

Lots of abbreviations in this post

Yeah, that is a weird thing to say about the song lengths. Even 2112 and Hemispheres have some shorter songs on them. It’s more that there weren’t any huge epics on Permanent Waves.

I dunno, Jacob's Ladder and Natural Science were epic IMO. You don't need a 20 min song to consider it epic.

Epic in terms of length. 7:00 and 9:00 minute tracks as opposed to having an 18-20 minute side long epics like on Caress of Steel, 2112, and Hemispheres. Though really A Fairwell to Kings has similar song lengths as Permanent Waves, including the short catchy “hit” Closer to the Heart. Mostly it was just a lazy characterization by the author.

[RodrigoAltaf]

Part 2 of Martin Popoff's trilogy came out this week, Limelight, which covers Rush through the 80's. So far an enjoyable read, yet oddly enough it's nearly all info that I've read previously over the years whether it be from interviews, tour books, or Wandering The Face of The Earth. I just finished the ESL chapter and I'm hoping there's fresh info I haven't seen before detailing my favorite run of their albums, GuP through HYF.

The PeW chapter bugged me though. I always get annoyed with the notion that Rush has tons of long songs and PeW is the first album where they finally write shorter, catchier songs. They only have about 8 songs that I would consider long by 70's standards, and were writing shorter catchy, intricate songs as early as Anthem.

Lots of abbreviations in this post

Yeah, that is a weird thing to say about the song lengths. Even 2112 and Hemispheres have some shorter songs on them. It’s more that there weren’t any huge epics on Permanent Waves.

I dunno, Jacob's Ladder and Natural Science were epic IMO. You don't need a 20 min song to consider it epic.

Epic in terms of length. 7:00 and 9:00 minute tracks as opposed to having an 18-20 minute side long epics like on Caress of Steel, 2112, and Hemispheres. Though really A Fairwell to Kings has similar song lengths as Permanent Waves, including the short catchy “hit” Closer to the Heart. Mostly it was just a lazy characterization by the author.

The point he makes is backed up by concurring statements from members of the band. Maybe there's a trend here to overanalyze everything. I don't think the book is lazy at all, not least of all when he addresses this particular issue.

[HOF]

Part 2 of Martin Popoff's trilogy came out this week, Limelight, which covers Rush through the 80's. So far an enjoyable read, yet oddly enough it's nearly all info that I've read previously over the years whether it be from interviews, tour books, or Wandering The Face of The Earth. I just finished the ESL chapter and I'm hoping there's fresh info I haven't seen before detailing my favorite run of their albums, GuP through HYF.

The PeW chapter bugged me though. I always get annoyed with the notion that Rush has tons of long songs and PeW is the first album where they finally write shorter, catchier songs. They only have about 8 songs that I would consider long by 70's standards, and were writing shorter catchy, intricate songs as early as Anthem.

Lots of abbreviations in this post

Yeah, that is a weird thing to say about the song lengths. Even 2112 and Hemispheres have some shorter songs on them. It’s more that there weren’t any huge epics on Permanent Waves.

I dunno, Jacob's Ladder and Natural Science were epic IMO. You don't need a 20 min song to consider it epic.

Epic in terms of length. 7:00 and 9:00 minute tracks as opposed to having an 18-20 minute side long epics like on Caress of Steel, 2112, and Hemispheres. Though really A Fairwell to Kings has similar song lengths as Permanent Waves, including the short catchy “hit” Closer to the Heart. Mostly it was just a lazy characterization by the author.

The point he makes is backed up by concurring statements from members of the band. Maybe there's a trend here to overanalyze everything. I don't think the book is lazy at all, not least of all when he addresses this particular issue.

I’m sure the band thought of themselves as doing that, but sometimes bands say things they believe to be true even when they aren’t. :-)

To be fair, I’ll take back any opinion expressed as to the author’s laziness as I haven’t read the book. I do think it’s a weird way to characterize what the band were doing prior to Permanent Waves, but I’m sure he had a reason for writing what he wrote.

[ytserush]

I've been secretly hoping that Geddy, Alex and MP would announce that they are going to make an album together...maybe even bring in a 4th guy, a primary vocalist who can belt it out. It just seems like such a perfect scenario.

Won't happen. I think the closest we'll get to see of those two guys being active is Alex doing special collaborations on stand alone songs - he did one with Marco Minneman not too long ago, and every now and then another one pops up - and maybe, just maybe, Geddy's tour playing stuff from his solo album and a few other songs to complete the setlist.

I'm not sure if Alex has worked on anything this year. He's been a guitar part factory on other albums for years now on other albums and many of those are finally seeing the light of day. Seems like he loves to do that or did. He hasn't really been motivated to play much this year and I can't say I blame him. Besides COVID has really thrown the monkey wrench into just about everything.

[ytserush]

One factor might be that it's generally much easier to find a guest spot for a guitarist than for a bassist. It might be that Geddy would hypothetically be willing to do guest spots just as much as Alex, but the offers simply aren't there due to his instrument.

Or he's quietly turned them down....  Geddy has always been more selective with his guest spots whereas Alex doesn't really seem to say no to that much.

[King Postwhore]

Geddy has said he really hasn't played in 2 years because of the book and the tour.

[ytserush]

Only provided for contrast:   I LOVE the Feedback EP.

I pull that off of the shelf every few months and more than that during the summer.

Like it a lot (except for Crossroads of course.)

[King Puppies and the Acid Guppies]

Only provided for contrast:   I LOVE the Feedback EP.

I pull that off of the shelf every few months and more than that during the summer.

Like it a lot (except for Crossroads of course.)

What's wrong with Crossroads?

[ytserush]

Only provided for contrast:   I LOVE the Feedback EP.

I pull that off of the shelf every few months and more than that during the summer.

Like it a lot (except for Crossroads of course.)

What's wrong with Crossroads?

Not a fan of the original song and not a lot was done to it to make me enjoy it more although Rush seemed to have fun playing it.

[King Puppies and the Acid Guppies]

Only provided for contrast:   I LOVE the Feedback EP.

I pull that off of the shelf every few months and more than that during the summer.

Like it a lot (except for Crossroads of course.)

What's wrong with Crossroads?

Not a fan of the original song and not a lot was done to it to make me enjoy it more although Rush seemed to have fun playing it.

Ah, gotcha. Fair enough. I like the original well enough, but I really enjoyed Alex's take on the guitar parts.

[Max Kuehnau]

I liked their take on The Seeker and Summertime Blues actually. (heard these two live on the tour as well)

[WildRanger]

Unpopular opinion: I don't think the side one of Moving Pictures is that great as nearly everyone claims. These days I tend to think the second side is musically more interesting (esp. The Camera Eye).
Red Barchetta and Limelight struck me as ordinary radio-friendly rock songs. I don't get why these two songs get too much love.

[HOF]

Unpopular opinion: I don't think the side one of Moving Pictures is that great as nearly everyone claims. These days I tend to think the second side is musically more interesting (esp. The Camera Eye).
Red Barchetta and Limelight struck me as ordinary radio-friendly rock songs. I don't get why these two songs get too much love.

I disagree about Red Barchetta (how many radio songs are 6 minutes without a real chorus?).

That said, Moving Pictures has always been one of the Rush albums I liked/played the least. YYZ is just ok as far as instrumentals go and Witch Hunt and Vital Signs are unremarkable. The Camera Eye and Red Barchetta are brilliant, but the other two tracks are radio staples in Limelight and Tom Sawyer, which are great songs but I’m less likely to put an album on just for them. So I’d be more likely to listen to Red Barchetta or The Camera Eye in isolation than to listen to the whole album.

That said, I do think it’s a fairly brilliant album. Just not one I seek out purposely very often.

[hunnus2000]

Unpopular opinion: I don't think the side one of Moving Pictures is that great as nearly everyone claims. These days I tend to think the second side is musically more interesting (esp. The Camera Eye).
Red Barchetta and Limelight struck me as ordinary radio-friendly rock songs. I don't get why these two songs get too much love.

I disagree about Red Barchetta (how many radio songs are 6 minutes without a real chorus?).

That said, Moving Pictures has always been one of the Rush albums I liked/played the least. YYZ is just ok as far as instrumentals go and Witch Hunt and Vital Signs are unremarkable. The Camera Eye and Red Barchetta are brilliant, but the other two tracks are radio staples in Limelight and Tom Sawyer, which are great songs but I’m less likely to put an album on just for them. So I’d be more likely to listen to Red Barchetta or The Camera Eye in isolation than to listen to the whole album.

That said, I do think it’s a fairly brilliant album. Just not one I seek out purposely very often.

It's funny, I went for the longest time listening to side two of Hemispheres when a buddy of mine slapped me upside the head and said 'listen to side one!'. I made the same mistake with MP where I listened to side one all the time and that same buddy said LISTEN TO SIDE TWO!!

I agree that side two is certainly underappreciated by casual Rush fans.

[Stadler]

Moving Pictures is a top two Rush record, and only because I feel like a cheater if I put it ahead of Hemispheres. It is frequently the Rush record I grab for a car ride.    I love every song on there except for Vital Signs (that's another one of those songs that seemed to fit better on a subsequent album; that belongs on Signals, IMO, both musically and thematically). 

I still think Tom Sawyer is a transcendent song, and Red Barchetta and The Camera Eye are not far behind.   LOVE that record.

[Mister Gold]

I've said it before and I'll say it again; one's opinion on Moving Pictures as a whole album will likely come down to their opinion on The Camera Eye. It's not hard to be absolutely smitten with Side A of MP- that half of the album is just classic after classic.

For me though, try as I might, I've never liked The Camera Eye all that much. And not only is it ten minutes long, it roughly takes up a whole quarter of Moving Pictures' runtime. So if that huge chunk of the album doesn't click, then you're looking at an opening half of an album that's a genuine masterpiece, while the other half has a huge chunk you don't like and then two other songs that are alright, but nothing special compared to the salvo that the album opened up with.

[HOF]

Moving Pictures is a top two Rush record, and only because I feel like a cheater if I put it ahead of Hemispheres. It is frequently the Rush record I grab for a car ride.    I love every song on there except for Vital Signs (that's another one of those songs that seemed to fit better on a subsequent album; that belongs on Signals, IMO, both musically and thematically). 

I still think Tom Sawyer is a transcendent song, and Red Barchetta and The Camera Eye are not far behind.   LOVE that record.

I agree it’s a great driving record. That’s the time I’d be most likely to choose to listen to MP as an album. That goes for a lot of Rush really.

[HOF]

I've said it before and I'll say it again; one's opinion on Moving Pictures as a whole album will likely come down to their opinion on The Camera Eye. It's not hard to be absolutely smitten with Side A of MP- that half of the album is just classic after classic.

For me though, try as I might, I've never liked The Camera Eye all that much. And not only is it ten minutes long, it roughly takes up a whole quarter of Moving Pictures' runtime. So if that huge chunk of the album doesn't click, then you're looking at an opening half of an album that's a genuine masterpiece, while the other half has a huge chunk you don't like and then two other songs that are alright, but nothing special compared to the salvo that the album opened up with.

Yeah, I agree The Camera Eye swings the album one way or another depending on if you like it or not.

[hunnus2000]

It seems odd to me that any one song should make or break an album and cause listeners to lean one way or the other. But I love TCE anyway. Such an epic!

[King Postwhore]

Unpopular opinion: I don't think the side one of Moving Pictures is that great as nearly everyone claims. These days I tend to think the second side is musically more interesting (esp. The Camera Eye).
Red Barchetta and Limelight struck me as ordinary radio-friendly rock songs. I don't get why these two songs get too much love.

I think you're looking at it wrong.  Let me explain.   I think you are burnt out on all 4 songs on the first side from you playing the album of hearing the 4 songs on the radio of those years.  Now side 2 seems fresh to you.

[Mister Gold]

It seems odd to me that any one song should make or break an album and cause listeners to lean one way or the other. But I love TCE anyway. Such an epic!

Normally, I would agree. The issue is that Moving Pictures (much like other classic Rush albums of that era) has a rather "short" runtime, clocking in at around 40 minutes. While that can be a great length for an album, it means you have to make every minute count.

And as I said before- The Camera Eye is a ten minute long epic. That one song alone takes up an entire quarter of the whole album's runtime. So yeah, as I said before, that's why I personally believe TCE makes or breaks Moving Pictures as a whole for listeners.

[hunnus2000]

It seems odd to me that any one song should make or break an album and cause listeners to lean one way or the other. But I love TCE anyway. Such an epic!

Normally, I would agree. The issue is that Moving Pictures (much like other classic Rush albums of that era) has a rather "short" runtime, clocking in at around 40 minutes. While that can be a great length for an album, it means you have to make every minute count.

And as I said before- The Camera Eye is a ten minute long epic. That one song alone takes up an entire quarter of the whole album's runtime. So yeah, as I said before, that's why I personally believe TCE makes or breaks Moving Pictures as a whole for listeners.

I purposely waited a day trying to digest your response and frankly it still doesn't make sense to me. It sounds like you're saying that because of TCE, people are throwing the baby out with the bath water. l have never heard of anyone saying that any one song with any artist pans an entire album because of one song. Especially an album as strong as MP. I certainly could be misinterpreting your post and I am pretty sure I am older than you meaning that we have different experiences so maybe people you know feel this way.

[HOF]

It seems odd to me that any one song should make or break an album and cause listeners to lean one way or the other. But I love TCE anyway. Such an epic!

Normally, I would agree. The issue is that Moving Pictures (much like other classic Rush albums of that era) has a rather "short" runtime, clocking in at around 40 minutes. While that can be a great length for an album, it means you have to make every minute count.

And as I said before- The Camera Eye is a ten minute long epic. That one song alone takes up an entire quarter of the whole album's runtime. So yeah, as I said before, that's why I personally believe TCE makes or breaks Moving Pictures as a whole for listeners.

I purposely waited a day trying to digest your response and frankly it still doesn't make sense to me. It sounds like you're saying that because of TCE, people are throwing the baby out with the bath water. l have never heard of anyone saying that any one song with any artist pans an entire album because of one song. Especially an album as strong as MP. I certainly could be misinterpreting your post and I am pretty sure I am older than you meaning that we have different experiences so maybe people you know feel this way.

As I understand his position (which aligns with my view of the album), you have 4 songs that most people seem to really like (Tom Sawyer, Red Barchetta, YYZ, Limelight) and 2 songs that many don’t care for (Witch Hunt and Vital Signs), and that opinion tends to be split on The Camera Eye. So if you don’t like it, that’s about half the album that you don’t like. If you do, then you like at least 3/4 of the album. It’s just a big chunk of the album is all.

[TAC]

Makes total sense.



I love the entire thing.

[hunnus2000]

It seems odd to me that any one song should make or break an album and cause listeners to lean one way or the other. But I love TCE anyway. Such an epic!

Normally, I would agree. The issue is that Moving Pictures (much like other classic Rush albums of that era) has a rather "short" runtime, clocking in at around 40 minutes. While that can be a great length for an album, it means you have to make every minute count.

And as I said before- The Camera Eye is a ten minute long epic. That one song alone takes up an entire quarter of the whole album's runtime. So yeah, as I said before, that's why I personally believe TCE makes or breaks Moving Pictures as a whole for listeners.

I purposely waited a day trying to digest your response and frankly it still doesn't make sense to me. It sounds like you're saying that because of TCE, people are throwing the baby out with the bath water. l have never heard of anyone saying that any one song with any artist pans an entire album because of one song. Especially an album as strong as MP. I certainly could be misinterpreting your post and I am pretty sure I am older than you meaning that we have different experiences so maybe people you know feel this way.

As I understand his position (which aligns with my view of the album), you have 4 songs that most people seem to really like (Tom Sawyer, Red Barchetta, YYZ, Limelight) and 2 songs that many don’t care for (Witch Hunt and Vital Signs), and that opinion tends to be split on The Camera Eye. So if you don’t like it, that’s about half the album that you don’t like. If you do, then you like at least 3/4 of the album. It’s just a big chunk of the album is all.

I guess we're going to have to chock it up to different experiences then because when this album came out, every song got airplay (including Witchhunt and Vital Signs) on the radio. Except for TCE and I think that's because of its runtime. Sure, maybe TCE got airplay late evening as a "deep cut" but the other songs were played on a regular rotation so I just don't see where one song causes anyone to ditch an album.

[HOF]

Well, it’s not really one song, it’s three songs making up about half of the album’s run time. That’s just my perspective as someone who came to the album years later.

[pg1067]

As I understand his position (which aligns with my view of the album), you have 4 songs that most people seem to really like (Tom Sawyer, Red Barchetta, YYZ, Limelight) and 2 songs that many don’t care for (Witch Hunt and Vital Signs), and that opinion tends to be split on The Camera Eye. So if you don’t like it, that’s about half the album that you don’t like. If you do, then you like at least 3/4 of the album. It’s just a big chunk of the album is all.

Weasel words!

With the exception of one person on these boards (Stadler?), I don't know anyone who doesn't like WH and VS.  They just don't like those songs as much as the other songs on MP.  However, if you go with the premise that "most" folks like side 1 and don't like WH and VS, then yeah, one's opinion about the album would turn on one's opinion about TCE (half killer/half filler versus 3/4 killer and 1/4 filler, I guess).  But I don't think that's a valid premise.

I love the entire thing.

Yup.  It's just different degrees.  While I regard WH and VS as the two "worst" songs on MP, they're still better than pretty much everything most other bands have ever done.

[King Postwhore]

I've never seen so much energy spent on a song someone doesn't like on a great album. 

[HOF]

As I understand his position (which aligns with my view of the album), you have 4 songs that most people seem to really like (Tom Sawyer, Red Barchetta, YYZ, Limelight) and 2 songs that many don’t care for (Witch Hunt and Vital Signs), and that opinion tends to be split on The Camera Eye. So if you don’t like it, that’s about half the album that you don’t like. If you do, then you like at least 3/4 of the album. It’s just a big chunk of the album is all.

Weasel words!

With the exception of one person on these boards (Stadler?), I don't know anyone who doesn't like WH and VS.  They just don't like those songs as much as the other songs on MP.  However, if you go with the premise that "most" folks like side 1 and don't like WH and VS, then yeah, one's opinion about the album would turn on one's opinion about TCE (half killer/half filler versus 3/4 killer and 1/4 filler, I guess).  But I don't think that's a valid premise.

I love the entire thing.

Yup.  It's just different degrees.  While I regard WH and VS as the two "worst" songs on MP, they're still better than pretty much everything most other bands have ever done.

Fair, but I’m really just trying to say if you don’t like those 3 songs that’s a big chunk of the album.

[romdrums]

I’ve always been a fan of Witch Hunt.  Vital Signs is the only song that is less than awesome on that record.

[TAC]

I actually love both Witch Hunt and Vital Signs.

[ProfessorPeart]

Love the whole album, including Witch Hunt and Vital Signs. I mean Witch Hunt is part of the Fear Trilogy (then Quadrilogy) and I think Vital Signs is a great bridge to Signals. Always wondered if there was any intention to that as it would fit in perfectly on that album or if it just inspired the direction for Signals.

[Bentower]

The last time I listened to Moving Pictures, via Time Machine, I was actually taken by side two in particular.
From the get-go its vibe felt, for a lack of a better word, haunted. There's something about the ominous, oppressive quality of The Camera Eye and Witch Hunt that, despite some airier sections in both songs, doesn't fully resolve even in Vital Signs until the ending where that shroud is finally lifted. The refrains of "everybody got to elevate from the norm, etc." are a wonderful thing due to what preceded them. All that tension and then...release. It was awe-inspiring tbh.

I love the entire album (although YYZ has always been just okay to me), but gained some new appreciation for what they accomplished there on the flip side. I can only guess if that arch was intentional on their part or if that's just the way these things play out. In either case those three songs form a subtle, dramatic whole in a way that feels unique to it.

[Eldomm]

I actually love both Witch Hunt and Vital Signs.

+1

[WildRanger]

Moving Pictures' side one is generally vastly preferred over the side two by Rush fans. Never understood why.