Rush v. Dirk, Pratt, & Lerxst

[ytserush]

Between the Sun and Moon has some of their best melodies in the verses, but then is ruined by the single worst chorus in the band’s history. Yes, even worse than the choruses from the first album. And yes, it is even far FAR worse than “net boy, net girl”.

Everyone seems to forget about The Big Wheel’s chorus...”looking for LOOOOOVE”...ugh, why Geddy, why??

Still a top song on Roll The Bones. Wished they would have played it live.

[ytserush]

The thing is, is that I think we are forgetting that to a great many people, Neil was the equal of Dylan. Just the very fact that Neil’s lyrics were the most searched lyrics on the entire Internet this week speaks volumes. He may not be quite as well-known, but those who are aware of him usually mention him in the same breath as Dylan and Lennon as far as his lyrics go

Maybe the world was trying to find out who this guy was that they've never even heard of before. The lyrics were on every one of the studio albums.

[ytserush]

Yeah on social media as well I see a ton of love for The Garden, like deep, emotional praise. I totally get that. It's a lovely song. Wish I was into the band when I still had a chance to see them live. Some buddies in high school went on the Snakes & Arrows tour and said it was fantastic.

Social media many times does not appear to reflect reality. That said, I think the Garden is pretty amazing.

[ytserush]

Good lord. 

I'm not saying it's "controversial."  I'm saying it's unnecessary.  Especially at this time.  It's just not a good time for this.  But even in general, I feel that it is unnecessary.  The "best" of any kind of art is subjective.  That's just the way it is.   There are a lot of factors that go into it.  And on a side note - I personally know 3 people who have mentioned Dylan as the best lyricist ever and then could not give a single example of a Bob Dylan lyric.  The common opinion breeds itself in some cases.  I am not, in any way whatsoever disparaging the lyrics of Bob Dylan, by the way.  I am simply saying that people a certain number of people think so, does not make it an objective fact.  It just doesn't.  And by the way, if you believe those polls, you can't pick and choose; I guess it's time to face up to Kurt Cobain being one of the best of all time. 

Behind your grandmother?  Rude.   

You think you're bringing objectivity and "the voice of reason" here, but you're not.

It is what it is, Lethean.  I'm sorry if I upset you.  Look, I get it.  He's an idol to many.  I loved the guy myself - drumming Mt. Rushmore, I've already said that "The Analog Kid" is me, the concepts of his mid-period speak to me deeply - but he was a man.   Just a man.  He would, likely as not, tell you that.  Clearly it's too soon to look at this with any objectivity, so with this reply, I'll explain myself one last time and let it go.  Be mad at me if you want, that's on you. I certainly do not mean any disrespect to the man, his legacy, or to those grieving his loss.

If he's your favorite lyricist, god bless you, seriously.  I take great comfort in the fact that you were able to connect with an artist.  For me, art is solely about connection (it's why I admire many of the artists I do; Paul Stanley does something I clearly cannot).  I love the idea that one can scribble some words into a notebook in an apartment or hotel room, and have it resonate with millions of people, thousands of miles, and tens of years later.   Neil clearly did that; I know he connected with me (and the "grandmother" line was a joke alluding to that; he's not the greatest ever, but he's not 246, after Lupe Fiasco either.  That's absurd.)  I'm not even a fan of Dylan; I much more relate to "Red Barchetta" than I do "Like A Rolling Stone" (I even have a red Jeep in my garage that I am fixing up, though there's no real connection other than the color). 

I've already said very clearly:  for those that are saying "greatest ever" in lieu of "my favorite", I'm not talking to you.  I'm just not.  I can't and won't argue with you on your favorite.  But there's not a standard you can name - EXCEPT "my favorite" - by which Neil is above Bob Dylan in terms of lyrics.  There have not been social revolutions chanting his lyrics.  When Billy Joel went behind the Iron Curtain to reach out to Soviet audiences, he did not play "Virtuality", he played "The Times They Are A-changin'".  There hasn't been a Broadway show (in fact two of them) focusing around his lyrical songbook.  I haven't even addressed the general literature prizes and accolades granted to his work.   This isn't disrespectful, this is pragmatic.   Maybe in five, ten, twenty years, all these will change.  Who knows? 

(As for the Cobain, no thanks.  He's NOT on every poll, he's just one of those that gets tossed in there periodically.  My point with the polls is not to disparage Neil or to make the case that they are definitive.  There are problems with all of them.  BUT, after a certain point, commonalities emerge.  That's the only point I'm making. If it was one list or two that left Neil off I'd blame the list.  The one or two lists with Cobain on there, I blame the list.  I'm talking about the commonalities.)

Why does any of this matter?  I'm just asking the question. I'm not offended by the comments. I just don't understand why it matters.

[ytserush]

I also agree that this isn't the time to argue about who's the best "whatever".  We should be reflecting back on one of the greatest bands of all time and mourning the loss of Neil Peart.  As Geddy Lee once said, "even though he's still the new guy, he's just as important."  I love that.  They had such an incredible bond.  It's been 10 days and I still can't believe he's gone.  Even if it were Alex or Geddy, I would still feel the same astronomical amount of loss.  I've been listening to nothing but Rush all week.  I've been a fan for 34 years.  These guys were my musical hero's.  My most favorite band ever.  I'm not just mourning Neil, but also feeling an incredible amount of sympathy for his family, Alex and Geddy, and every single fan out there who's been touched by the amazing journey of Rush.  They've been through the lowest of lows and highest of highs spanning over 40 years.  I couldn't be more proud to be a Rush fan. 

To be fair it's been a week and a few hours since we were clued in, but other than that I agree with your comments.

For me it's not just about the lyrics, the music , and the band. It's feeling for his family and friends too. For me I also think it's about the man and the life he led. He's done  it his way from day one and I admire that, aspire to that (though the success rate isn't quite at his level.) and I'm inspired by that. I have to admit that I'm kind of blown away by the cross section of outpouring for the guy.  I expected this to be contained in the backwater that I subjugate myself to but I've read tweets from Paul Anka and Roy Orbison Jr. (Did they publicists tell them to get in on this?) The memorials I've been reading have been heartfelt and organic (Admittedly I've been cherry picking the good ones.). He just touched so many lives with his presence (again I'm not even talking about his work in Rush.)

All of this is pretty amazing to me and I'm glad that you touched on that.

[ytserush]

All the stuff with Stadler, Lethean and Kox in the past hour or so is very odd.  Stadler seems to be implying (or saying expressly) that there is a certain level of popularity or commonality of opinion that turns something otherwise subjective into something objective.  This is something I feel like Stadler has argued (sometimes vigorously) against many times in the past.

Interesting point.

[ytserush]

See, I think compared to Hold Your Fire and Grace Under Pressure, I don't find Power Windows catchy at all.

It's an unconventional album. It somehow manages to fuse a bunch of disparate elements and make it cohesive. Hold Your Fire smoothed out some of the rough edges of that approach.

I find Hold Your Fire and Grace Under Pressure practically the same album. One is a build up to Power Windows, and the other is a decompression.

I think with Power Windows, they took it as far as they could. For me, it was too far, but obviously for others, they knocked it out of the park. Even if It's not my favorite to listen to, it's definitely an admirable album.

Hold Your Fire seemed to be the album that they claim to take it as far as they could. Presto is where they backed off. I've never heard the theory that Grace Under Pressure and Hold Your Fire are the same album.  I'm going to ponder that.

[HOF]

Yeah, I don’t think of Grace Under Pressure and Hold Your Fire as sonically, stylistically, or lyrically similar at all.

[gazinwales]

Yeah GuP is a stand alone album for me, nothing is similar at all.
I've always paired PW and HYF together, same producer, similar in style, very high tech production and sound.
The difference for me is HYF sounds more organic and melodic.

[KevShmev]

Yeah GuP is a stand alone album for me, nothing is similar at all.
I've always paired PW and HYF together, same producer, similar in style, very high tech production and sound.
The difference for me is HYF sounds more organic and melodic.

Despite both being synth-heavy, I think Power Windows and Hold Your Fire do not sound similar in sound and production.  Power Windows is very huge, smooth and warm, while Hold Your Fire is more intimate yet a bit, for lack of a better term, harsh sonically (the loud moments are like huge crashes).  The warmth of Power Windows is evident in the low end as it sounds very full, but never over-powering, while the harsh sound of Hold Your Fire is evident in how tinny it sounds when you get those sudden blasts of power.

[DTA]

Has anyone noticed that on Signals and GuP, Geddy's voice is a bit on the lower end of his range whereas he gets high again on PoW and HYF? He almost sounds restrained a bit on Signals/GuP but seems to let loose again on PoW/HYF. I think that adds to the overall appeal of those two along with the brightness of the production.

[Fritzinger]

I always thought that Hold You Fire has a very "slim", transparent sound. As has Test For Echo, but of course in a very different way. I love the sound of both albums.

[HOF]

I agree that HYF is most similar to Power Windows, but I also agree it is a little more thin sounding. Maybe that’s where the Grace Under Pressure comparison comes from. I’d say it’s closer to Roll The Bones in that regard though. I do find it fascinating that different people hear different things when they listen to an album. Even people who generally like the same kinds of music. Music is cool like that.

[jammindude]

See, and to me, HYF is BY FAR the most "polished" sounding.   In fact, too much so.   I hear a progression in the synth era.   GUP is a very cold sounding album.   They are still finding their feet and figuring out how to do this all without Broon for the first time.   PoW is a bright album, and it is a band that has found it's feet in the synth-era and is having fun with the new toys that they are now beginning to master.   HYF was overkill.   Completely oversynthed to the point of sacrificing too much of the organic.   Some brilliant emotions manage to poke their heads out in a few places, but they were beginning to lose who they were in a wall of electronics.   Presto was a necessary and important (but still imperfect) return to basics.

[HOF]

See, and to me, HYF is BY FAR the most "polished" sounding.   In fact, too much so.   I hear a progression in the synth era.   GUP is a very cold sounding album.   They are still finding their feet and figuring out how to do this all without Broon for the first time.   PoW is a bright album, and it is a band that has found it's feet in the synth-era and is having fun with the new toys that they are now beginning to master.   HYF was overkill.   Completely oversynthed to the point of sacrificing too much of the organic.   Some brilliant emotions manage to poke their heads out in a few places, but they were beginning to lose who they were in a wall of electronics.   Presto was a necessary and important (but still imperfect) return to basics.

Yeah, this is generally my view of that run as well. HYF took the synth/programming a little too far and ended up sounding a little plastic (I do like a lot of the drum sound though). But it also contains several songs that just shouldn’t have made the cut lyrically either (Second Nature, Lock and Key, Turn the Page, Tai Shan). It feels like they got in a rut with that approach to songwriting on this album and needed a bit of a reset with Presto. But then they were kind of back in it with Roll The Bones I feel.

[Architeuthis]

   Presto was a necessary and important (but still imperfect) return to basics.

Presto is the first studio album that I owned from Rush. It was gifted to me from a friend and I thought it was the most unique sounding music I've ever heard.  I was allready getting hooked on the band listening to Exit Stage Left until I wore out the tape.
 This was also the first time I saw Rush my senior year in high school, I got 5th row seats on Alex's side in the Seattle Center Colosseum. I was absolutely blown away by this performance and I've been a die-hard ever since. 
 So Presto is a really special album to me and has aged well too. Also Neil's drum sound was amazing on that tour, perhaps the best.  VT and R30 are the only tours where the drums sounded close to that good, although I did miss the Counterparts tour.

[Fritzinger]

I'm so jealous of all of you guys, I never got to see Rush. The only show that would have been possible for me to join was the one in Berlin, 2013. For some reason I did not go. I can't even remember thinking about it, I think I didn't really know about that show.

As for the show in Frankfurt in 2011, I was living in Argentina at that time. They even came to Argentina when I was there, but I was 17 at the time and not allowed by the exchange program to travel 800 kilometres to Buenos Aires alone.

[Orbert]

I love Presto.  It came out at just the right time, got me through a rough patch with a new job and shit.  Tight collection of shorter tunes, but some really cool ideas and I think it all sounds great.  Rush always comes through.

[The Walrus]

I like Scars and Superconductor. I don't play them often and sometimes I skip them after they've been on for a few minutes but I don't think they deserve the hate I've seen them get. The Pass is probably my favorite song on that record. Presto's all right.

[HOF]

Presto is one of my favorites (I had it 4th in my ranking the other day). Even though I think the production was a little too different (it’s honestly one of the weirdest sounding albums I can think of. Nothing really comes through right in the mix and it’s always left me wanting a little more bottom end), I love every track. The Pass, Anagram, Available Light, and the title track are all outstanding. And even the awkward tracks like Superconductor or War Paint are ones I really enjoy. I love the funky bass part on Show Don’t Tell too. It’s just a different but very cool Rush album.

[IDontNotDoThings]

Available Light is my favourite Rush song ever, so yeah I like Presto a lot

[TAC]

I find Hold Your Fire and Grace Under Pressure practically the same album. One is a build up to Power Windows, and the other is a decompression.

I'm going to ponder that.

Yeah, I don’t think of Grace Under Pressure and Hold Your Fire as sonically, stylistically, or lyrically similar at all.

I don't know how to explain it really, other than to say that one is climbing up the mountain towards Power Windows and the other is coming back down the mountain from Power Windows. Both for the most part are comprised of supremely catchy songs. I find them both nowhere near as busy as Power Windows, which to me makes them more pleasurable. Each feels simpler than Power Windows.

[HOF]

I can sort of see it in that context. Might have to squint a bit (and I actually see HYF as a little overly busy), but I can see them as similar points of deviation from Power Windows.

[KevShmev]

I can't remember if it was this thread or one of the other 11 Rush threads dominating GM right now , but I checked out the Auburn Hills shows from the Presto tour that is on YT, and gained more of an appreciation for Scars as a result (and Superconductor to a lesser degree).  I've always liked Scars, but seeing that live version upped my appreciation for it by quite a lot.  It was also interesting to hear a live version of Superconductor with Alex actually singing the titular line live instead of singing it very low in the mix underneath a pre-recorded vocal that they triggered.

[King Postwhore]

Power Windows was an exploration of technology with prog and pop sensibilities.  HYF, was more of an extension but in a adult contemporary rock kind of way.

They tried to adjust with Presto and RTB, but even they wondered why the songs weren't as balsy as the live versions of the songs.

That's where the correction came in with Counterparts. 

[jammindude]

That's what I was about to say about Presto.   It was a return to the organic, but a lot of really powerful riffs just died completely in a very thin and wimpy mix.   

I actually LOVE Superconductor, but I have to use my imagination.  Because Alex is really trying to make that song "in your face" and the mix just won't let it happen.   

Don't get the hate for War Paint at all.   Great lyrical song, and top 3 musically from the album IMO.   Actually, all of Side 1 to my ears is really excellent.   It's the stuff between Superconductor and Available Light that get a bit "iffy".    The lyrics for Anagram are very clever, but the song itself is a bit lifeless.   I hated Hand Over Fist at first, but comparing it to the more dreck material from RtB made me think it maybe wasn't so bad after all.   Red Tide is just....there.     But maybe I need to revisit Presto.   I think it could do with a remix (ala VT) but probably just as well to leave well enough alone. 

[Architeuthis]

There is a remaster of Presto probably 10-15 years old now.  I have it and it is a vast improvement when I compare the two on the same stereo,  at least to my ears anyway.

[gazinwales]

I have both the original pressing of Presto and the Japan SHM-CD remaster (https://www.discogs.com/Rush-%E3%83%A9%E3%83%83%E3%82%B7%E3%83%A5-Presto-%E3%83%97%E3%83%AC%E3%82%B9%E3%83%88/release/7999363) from 2013
the sound is a lot better than the original.

[HOF]

I’d love a proper remix of Presto, but it’s hard to imagine it ever happening. The big kicker for me in Anagram is that huge tom roll after the last “the saint turns to sin.” I always end up rewinding to listen a couple times.

[King Postwhore]

They did remix them.  I own that and RTB.  A little more bottom end.

[jammindude]

Big difference between remixed and remastered. I own the remaster, but I’m not aware of a remix.

The remaster cranks up the volume a bit...but the album really needs a remix that we will most likely never get.

[HOF]

Yeah, I have both the original pressing and the remaster. There is a mild improvement in the volume, but a remix would be necessary to bring individual instrument levels up to where they need to be to give it a more robust sound.

[Lupton]

I’d love a proper remix of Presto, but it’s hard to imagine it ever happening. The big kicker for me in Anagram is that huge tom roll after the last “the saint turns to sin.” I always end up rewinding to listen a couple times.

I think that's what happens when you put too much reverb on the drums.

[millahh]

Yeah, I have both the original pressing and the remaster. There is a mild improvement in the volume, but a remix would be necessary to bring individual instrument levels up to where they need to be to give it a more robust sound.

I was listening to it while driving the other day, and I realized that it sounded like headphone bleed.  And that really would take a proper remix to address.

[King Puppies and the Acid Guppies]

Big difference between remixed and remastered. I own the remaster, but I’m not aware of a remix.

The remaster cranks up the volume a bit...but the album really needs a remix that we will most likely never get.

Perhaps for the 40th anniversary edition.