Poll

What are the 3 best songs on Clockwork Angels?

Caravan
71 (12.2%)
BU2B
46 (7.9%)
Clockwork Angels
85 (14.6%)
The Anarchist
44 (7.6%)
Carnies
19 (3.3%)
Halo Effect
11 (1.9%)
Seven Cities of Gold
21 (3.6%)
The Wreckers
46 (7.9%)
Headlong Flight
87 (14.9%)
BU2B2
4 (0.7%)
Wish Them Well
16 (2.7%)
The Garden
132 (22.7%)

Total Members Voted: 199

Author Topic: Rush v. Dirk, Pratt, & Lerxst  (Read 490127 times)

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Offline jammindude

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Re: Rush v. Dirk, Pratt, & Lerxst
« Reply #4165 on: January 16, 2020, 08:35:41 PM »
TFE has my favorite opening 5 of any post PoW album.

And Time and Motion is among my favorites from the 90s.
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Offline Anguyen92

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Re: Rush v. Dirk, Pratt, & Lerxst
« Reply #4166 on: January 16, 2020, 08:38:44 PM »
Hey! Look!  It's Tim!



TAC is a lot of things, but this I'm fairly certain he ain't.

Offline The Walrus

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Re: Rush v. Dirk, Pratt, & Lerxst
« Reply #4167 on: January 16, 2020, 08:50:00 PM »
"Becomes confused and frightened when Battery comes on" oh my god I almost choked on my food  :rollin
From a Mega Man Legends island jamming power metal to a Walrus listening to black metal, I like your story arc.
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Offline ProfessorPeart

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Re: Rush v. Dirk, Pratt, & Lerxst
« Reply #4168 on: January 16, 2020, 09:41:58 PM »
I have never understood the disdain for Test For Echo, and Time and Motion,  around here and at the old purple palace. I really enjoy the record and that song. Driven is a beast. Resist is better live then the studio version.

If I had one complaint, it's that Limbo is not their best effort for an instrumental. Otherwise, a solid record.

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Offline IDontNotDoThings

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Re: Rush v. Dirk, Pratt, & Lerxst
« Reply #4169 on: January 16, 2020, 09:55:57 PM »
For what it's worth, I think Test For Echo is a vast improvement over the two albums that came before it, & I think it foreshadows the later Rush albums quite nicely.
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Offline HOF

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Re: Rush v. Dirk, Pratt, & Lerxst
« Reply #4170 on: January 16, 2020, 10:14:04 PM »
For what it's worth, I think Test For Echo is a vast improvement over the two albums that came before it, & I think it foreshadows the later Rush albums quite nicely.

I definitely think a lot of Clockwork Angels feels like they reworked parts from T4E (example off the top of my head would be Halo Effect), and yeah, the general sound and style was continued on all of Vapor Trails, Snakes and Arrows, and Clockwork Angels. It really started on Counterparts but that one was a little more slick production wise. T4E and beyond have more of that crunchy bass and a little more distorted guitar sound.

Offline Architeuthis

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Re: Rush v. Dirk, Pratt, & Lerxst
« Reply #4171 on: January 17, 2020, 02:01:35 AM »


If I had one complaint, it's that Limbo is not their best effort for an instrumental. Otherwise, a solid record.
In a strange way, I could see that instrumental song leading straight into "Seven Cities of Gold"  from Clockwork Angels..  Especially in a live setting! 
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Offline Stadler

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Re: Rush v. Dirk, Pratt, & Lerxst
« Reply #4172 on: January 17, 2020, 06:52:41 AM »
I don't get all the love for The Garden

Actually, it's quite simple.  The Garden is a beautifully written song.  Lyrically and musically.  That's why people love it.  Hope that helps.  ;)

If, by "beautifully written," you mean painfully boring, then I get it.

Beat me to the punch.  I just do not get the love for that song. It's not even the best song on the RECORD. 

Quote
I don't ever think about this (but would have put it at the bottom of my list also, but that's not really fair because it shouldn't be judged in comparison to Rush's original albums).  I bought Feedback purely as a matter of instinct.  I maybe listened to it once or twice, and I don't foresee ever listening to it again.  The song selection did nothing for me.

On this, though, we disagree. I LOVE LOVE LOVE Feedback.  But then again, I'm a sucker for a) those kinds of roots/covers albums, and b) the song selection is stellar.  Believe it or not, "Summertime Blues" is one of my favorite songs, as is "For What It's Worth", and I have "The Seeker" (the original) as one of my ring tones. 

By the way, it was revelatory how influential The Who were, given that their debut was a Zeppelin knock off of sorts (though the Yardbirds are in there, and that's Page). 

Offline Stadler

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Re: Rush v. Dirk, Pratt, & Lerxst
« Reply #4173 on: January 17, 2020, 06:55:00 AM »
1. Moving Pictures
2. Hemispheres
3. Permanent Waves
4. 2112
5. Counterparts
6. Signals
7. Presto
8. Fly By Night
9. Clockwork Angels
10. Grace Under Pressure
11. Vapor Trails
12. A Farewell To Kings
13. Rush
14. Roll The Bones
15. Hold Your Fire
16. Test For Echo
17. Caress Of Steel
18. Power Windows
19. Snakes And Arrows

With one or two exceptions (AFTK too low; GUP too high) this isn't a bad list.  I know for me, other than the top five or so and the bottom three, you could throw the middle section into a hat, pull it out, and I probably wouldn't fight you on it.  For better or worse, Rush has one of the more CONSISTENT catalogues of any artist I listen to. I think Test For Echo is the only one I just do not listen to under any circumstances.

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Re: Rush v. Dirk, Pratt, & Lerxst
« Reply #4174 on: January 17, 2020, 07:59:29 AM »
Hey! Look!  It's Tim!



TAC is a lot of things, but this I'm fairly certain he ain't.

You are right,  he's only let out of the basement once a year.
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Offline The Walrus

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Re: Rush v. Dirk, Pratt, & Lerxst
« Reply #4175 on: January 17, 2020, 08:01:07 AM »
I don't get all the love for The Garden

Actually, it's quite simple.  The Garden is a beautifully written song.  Lyrically and musically.  That's why people love it.  Hope that helps.  ;)

If, by "beautifully written," you mean painfully boring, then I get it.

Beat me to the punch.  I just do not get the love for that song. It's not even the best song on the RECORD. 

Okay but it is though  :)
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Offline Stadler

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Re: Rush v. Dirk, Pratt, & Lerxst
« Reply #4176 on: January 17, 2020, 08:16:21 AM »
I am not a Metallica pinkhat! I was in on the ground floor.


I'm dizzy right now.  Seriously, I think I need to sit down.  Tim knows internet slang and can use it in a sentence, and I've never even HEARD of it before.   This is not good.   


As for that poster, actually one of them DOES fit me perfectly:

"Proclaims to love metal, but considers anything too different from Metallica or Iron Maiden 'worthless noise'"! (Even Machine Head is worthless noise). 

Offline Stadler

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Re: Rush v. Dirk, Pratt, & Lerxst
« Reply #4177 on: January 17, 2020, 08:25:06 AM »
For what it's worth, I think Test For Echo is a vast improvement over the two albums that came before it, & I think it foreshadows the later Rush albums quite nicely.

I definitely think a lot of Clockwork Angels feels like they reworked parts from T4E (example off the top of my head would be Halo Effect), and yeah, the general sound and style was continued on all of Vapor Trails, Snakes and Arrows, and Clockwork Angels. It really started on Counterparts but that one was a little more slick production wise. T4E and beyond have more of that crunchy bass and a little more distorted guitar sound.

I need to go back to listen again, because I thought Counterparts, with a few exceptions (I think Nobody's Hero is a little preachy and self-complimentary) was a great leap forward, and TFE was a slide back (kind of like how I viewed Signals/GUP).  It's not a complete waste - Driven is excellent, and I like Limbo - but I think it's not the band - and particularly Neil's - finest hour.  I've always viewed the sound/effort on Vapor Trails to be an over-correction from TFE, but that's not seemingly supported by the band or events, since Alex seemed to really speak highly of TFE, and VT is of course famously impacted by the intervening events, not the preceding album. 

Offline HOF

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Re: Rush v. Dirk, Pratt, & Lerxst
« Reply #4178 on: January 17, 2020, 08:56:55 AM »
So as is a habit of mine, I made an edited track list for T4E last night.

1. Test for Echo
2. Driven
3. Half the World
4. The Color of Right
5. Totem
6. Virtuality
7. Resist
8. Carve Away the Stone

That’s really short for a mid-90s CD (only 38 minutes) but more in line with the length of the classic Rush albums that are a blast to listen to in one sitting. And it really does flow well. I could live with adding back either Limbo (not bad really but a little repetitive) or Dog Years (like the music, don’t like the lyrics) to get it over 40 minutes, but those 8 are all really solid to great Rush tracks in my opinion.

Offline jammindude

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Re: Rush v. Dirk, Pratt, & Lerxst
« Reply #4179 on: January 17, 2020, 10:08:07 AM »
Stadler. Interesting that you called VT an over correction after TFE, because I always viewed CP as being an over correction after the RTB debacle (at least, it was a debacle to me. At least 3 of Rush’s worst songs ever are on that album). CP was definitely heavy, and that part of it was a welcome change of direction. But Stick it Out sounded a bit too “desperate to stay relevant”. Trying too hard to imitate the then recent grunge craze. And as has been pointed out, Nobody’s Hero is nice, but a bit too preachy, and maybe even a bit too repetitive. Between the Sun and Moon has some of their best melodies in the verses, but then is ruined by the single worst chorus in the band’s history. Yes, even worse than the choruses from the first album. And yes, it is even far FAR worse than “net boy, net girl”.

TFE sounded like them finding themselves again. “OK, we did the heavy grunge album and found our rock roots again...now let’s do a RUSH album.”  And to my ears, the results are nearly perfect (I just don’t care for Dog Years and Totem that much, but they are ok)
« Last Edit: January 17, 2020, 10:13:11 AM by jammindude »
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Offline pg1067

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Re: Rush v. Dirk, Pratt, & Lerxst
« Reply #4180 on: January 17, 2020, 10:13:07 AM »





For what it's worth, I think Test For Echo is a vast improvement over the two albums that came before it, & I think it foreshadows the later Rush albums quite nicely.

I don't know about "vast improvement" as compared to Counterparts, but it's definitely an improvement, and "vast improvement" is an understatement as compared to RTB.  I listened to the start of T4E this morning on my way into work.  I'll get Time and Motion to start off lunch, which is a good thing.


Quote
I don't ever think about this (but would have put it at the bottom of my list also, but that's not really fair because it shouldn't be judged in comparison to Rush's original albums).  I bought Feedback purely as a matter of instinct.  I maybe listened to it once or twice, and I don't foresee ever listening to it again.  The song selection did nothing for me.

On this, though, we disagree. I LOVE LOVE LOVE Feedback.  But then again, I'm a sucker for a) those kinds of roots/covers albums, and b) the song selection is stellar.  Believe it or not, "Summertime Blues" is one of my favorite songs, as is "For What It's Worth", and I have "The Seeker" (the original) as one of my ring tones. 

By the way, it was revelatory how influential The Who were, given that their debut was a Zeppelin knock off of sorts (though the Yardbirds are in there, and that's Page). 

I would have loved a different Who cover (e.g., "The Real Me"), a Zeppelin cover and at least one nod to their prog roots.  To each his own, though.


I don't get all the love for The Garden

Actually, it's quite simple.  The Garden is a beautifully written song.  Lyrically and musically.  That's why people love it.  Hope that helps.  ;)

If, by "beautifully written," you mean painfully boring, then I get it.

Beat me to the punch.  I just do not get the love for that song. It's not even the best song on the RECORD. 

Okay but it is though  :)

It's not even in the top half of songs on CA.


Between the Sun and Moon has some of their best melodies in the verses, but then is ruined by the single worst chorus in the band’s history. Yes, even worse that the choruses from the first album. And yes, it is even far FAR worse than “net boy, net girl”.

I don't understand.  How can Between Sun and Moon be ruined by the chorus of Hand over Fist?
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Offline jammindude

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Re: Rush v. Dirk, Pratt, & Lerxst
« Reply #4181 on: January 17, 2020, 10:15:55 AM »
Fans: Neil is the greatest lyricist ever.

People: I just looked up a song and he said "Ahhh yes to yes, to ahhh to yes.  Why the sun?"  What does that mean?

Fans:  .....   

EDIT - JUST remembered that that song was co-written by Pye Dubois, so it might be Pye who is responsible for this dreck.   So I'm backpeddling on the joke above, but still maintain that that chorus is TERRIBLE. 

Yes....worse than Hand Over Fist.
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Offline HOF

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Re: Rush v. Dirk, Pratt, & Lerxst
« Reply #4182 on: January 17, 2020, 10:19:54 AM »
I will readily admit that the greatest lyricist ever (well, maybe not ever) has some stinkers. On almost every album too. It’s part of his and Rush charm in a way.

Offline The Walrus

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Re: Rush v. Dirk, Pratt, & Lerxst
« Reply #4183 on: January 17, 2020, 10:25:22 AM »
The Garden is a masterpiece.
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Offline DTA

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Re: Rush v. Dirk, Pratt, & Lerxst
« Reply #4184 on: January 17, 2020, 10:39:32 AM »
Between the Sun and Moon has some of their best melodies in the verses, but then is ruined by the single worst chorus in the band’s history. Yes, even worse than the choruses from the first album. And yes, it is even far FAR worse than “net boy, net girl”.



Everyone seems to forget about The Big Wheel’s chorus...”looking for LOOOOOVE”...ugh, why Geddy, why??

Offline Mladen

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Re: Rush v. Dirk, Pratt, & Lerxst
« Reply #4185 on: January 17, 2020, 10:41:43 AM »
Yes, the greatest lyricist in the world is allowed to write a dud every now and then.  :lol

Offline pg1067

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Re: Rush v. Dirk, Pratt, & Lerxst
« Reply #4186 on: January 17, 2020, 10:45:13 AM »
Yes....worse than Hand Over Fist.

You have an argument if you're only considering the words.  However, when you throw in the music and melody line, Hand over Fist is the worst chorus in the catalog, and it's not close.


The Garden is a masterpiece.

No accounting for taste:  https://www.elitereaders.com/ridiculous-paintings-insanely-sold-for-millions-dollars/
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Re: Rush v. Dirk, Pratt, & Lerxst
« Reply #4187 on: January 17, 2020, 10:53:58 AM »
But pg, you are in the minority. While it is how you feel, you can be wrong.
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Offline HOF

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Re: Rush v. Dirk, Pratt, & Lerxst
« Reply #4188 on: January 17, 2020, 10:54:19 AM »
I like Hand Over Fist. It’s awkward but earnest.

Offline Stadler

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Re: Rush v. Dirk, Pratt, & Lerxst
« Reply #4189 on: January 17, 2020, 10:58:05 AM »
I'm sorry if it's too soon, but Neil is not the "greatest lyricist ever".  He's very good, no doubt.  Perhaps even the best hard rock/prog lyricist ever.  But let's not go overboard here.  Bob Dylan wasn't called "the voice of a generation" because he sucked.  John Lennon wasn't compared to "Jesus Christ" because he sucked.  Leonard Cohen.  Bruce Springsteen. 

EDIT:  I actually like Hand Over Fist (it's a lot more meaningful than just the basic metaphor) and Between The Sun And Moon.  Now, Alien Shore you can have.  Pffft. 
« Last Edit: January 17, 2020, 11:03:40 AM by Stadler »

Offline HOF

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Re: Rush v. Dirk, Pratt, & Lerxst
« Reply #4190 on: January 17, 2020, 11:03:00 AM »
He was the greatest combo rock drummer lyricist ever though.  ;)

Offline SoundscapeMN

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Re: Rush v. Dirk, Pratt, & Lerxst
« Reply #4191 on: January 17, 2020, 11:03:35 AM »
Hand Over Fist  :tup

the bridge in that tune is right up there and another reason Presto is the last great record they made.

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Re: Rush v. Dirk, Pratt, & Lerxst
« Reply #4192 on: January 17, 2020, 11:04:12 AM »
He was the greatest combo rock drummer lyricist ever though.  ;)

THAT I can't argue.   

Offline HOF

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Re: Rush v. Dirk, Pratt, & Lerxst
« Reply #4193 on: January 17, 2020, 11:15:43 AM »
Hand Over Fist  :tup

the bridge in that tune is right up there and another reason Presto is the last great record they made.

Presto is certainly a magical album, as evidenced by the bunnies on the cover.

Offline Lethean

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Re: Rush v. Dirk, Pratt, & Lerxst
« Reply #4194 on: January 17, 2020, 11:19:23 AM »
I quite like Hand Over Fist - both the song itself and the lyrics.  It feels like Neil was able to capture something with that (like he has so many times).  I can't explain it well, but I think that song is just another example of the great lyricist that he is.

And Stadler, I was about to type something that sounded like it spoke for everyone which is ridiculous because I don't know how everyone else feels.  But my feeling is that... that kind of statement is just kinda unnecessary.  Yeah, of course not everyone participating in this thread is going to think that Neil is the best ever or Rush is the best ever.  It's cool.  And when someone says that they're generally talking about how they feel, not proclaiming it as the final word on the matter.  Why come in and say that?  Why come in and laugh at someone in the Haken thread?  And why present it like there's some kind of objectivity to it "let's not go overboard here." It's not an objective fact.    It's just as legitimate to think Neil is the greatest as it is to think someone older is. 

Offline jammindude

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Re: Rush v. Dirk, Pratt, & Lerxst
« Reply #4195 on: January 17, 2020, 11:21:12 AM »
The thing is, is that I think we are forgetting that to a great many people, Neil was the equal of Dylan. Just the very fact that Neil’s lyrics were the most searched lyrics on the entire Internet this week speaks volumes. He may not be quite as well-known, but those who are aware of him usually mention him in the same breath as Dylan and Lennon as far as his lyrics go
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Offline Nekov

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Re: Rush v. Dirk, Pratt, & Lerxst
« Reply #4196 on: January 17, 2020, 11:39:33 AM »
I can't miss on the fun of creating a list of albums! Spoiler alert: This will make a lot of people cringe.

1. Moving Pictures
2. Vapor Trails
3. Signals
4. Permanent Waves
5. A Farewell to Kings
6. Power Windows
7. Grace Under Pressure
8. Hold your Fire
9. Fly by Night
10. Presto
11. 2112
12. Caress of Steel
13. Counterparts
14. Hemispheres
15. Clockwork Angels
16. Test for Echo
17. Rush
18. Snakes & Arrows
19. Roll the Bones
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Offline pg1067

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Re: Rush v. Dirk, Pratt, & Lerxst
« Reply #4197 on: January 17, 2020, 11:50:09 AM »
But pg, you are in the minority. While it is how you feel, you can be wrong.

(assuming you're talking about The Garden) I'm in the minority of the vocal handful of people who post here, but I've seen no evidence as to how Rush's fanbase as a whole feels about it.


Hand Over Fist  :tup

the bridge in that tune is right up there and another reason Presto is the last great record they made.

Presto is certainly a magical album, as evidenced by the bunnies on the cover.

Two words:  Available Light.  Possibly Rush's best post-Signals song.


I'm sorry if it's too soon, but Neil is not the "greatest lyricist ever".  He's very good, no doubt.  Perhaps even the best hard rock/prog lyricist ever.  But let's not go overboard here.  Bob Dylan wasn't called "the voice of a generation" because he sucked.  John Lennon wasn't compared to "Jesus Christ" because he sucked.  Leonard Cohen.  Bruce Springsteen. 

That's nonsense (not because I disagree but because it's not susceptible of being either true or untrue).  As you have pointed out yourself many, many times (thus making these very objective sounding comments a bit ironic), there is no such thing as "the greatest" when it comes to this sort of thing.  There is "my favorite" and "everyone else."  Dylan is better known and, thus, more popular (and likely the "my favorite" of more folks), but, to quote jammindude, "those who are aware of him usually mention him in the same breath as Dylan [and make the same sorts of comments about him] . . . as far as his lyrics go."

Also, who compared John Lennon to Jesus?  John Lennon famously and hyperbolically compared the popularity of the Beatles to that of Jesus, but I think that's about it.
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Re: Rush v. Dirk, Pratt, & Lerxst
« Reply #4198 on: January 17, 2020, 11:57:51 AM »
Just as an example look at the youtube likes and dislikes. Also, go to YouTube and read the responses. You'll get your answer.

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Offline The Walrus

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Re: Rush v. Dirk, Pratt, & Lerxst
« Reply #4199 on: January 17, 2020, 12:09:40 PM »
Yeah on social media as well I see a ton of love for The Garden, like deep, emotional praise. I totally get that. It's a lovely song. Wish I was into the band when I still had a chance to see them live. Some buddies in high school went on the Snakes & Arrows tour and said it was fantastic.
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