Rush v. Dirk, Pratt, & Lerxst

[Stadler]

I don't know that it's a sleep inducer, but PG, I'm sort of with you.  CA is a good record, but it doesn't compare to the very best of the catalogue.

[Big Hath]

I've been following this thread on and off for a while and I'm a fan of rush but I have question to you guys:

Why is Snakes and Arrows rated so low on some of these lists? I honestly, no joke, think it's rush's greatest album.

much as others have said, I think it is full of mid-tempo snoozers (other than Far Cry which I really like).  I was hoping the S&A tour would change my mind about a few of the songs, but no, it unfortunately did not.  It remains the only Rush album I still haven't ripped to my computer - just can't seem to get a round to doing it because I never think about listening to it.

[TAC]

My main issue with S&A is that it feels like they tried to write/fit the music to Neil's lyrics. I'd rather write lyrics to good music, rather than the other way around. It just falls flat to me, which is a shame because the album sounds awesome.

[KevShmev]

Rush songs would usually kick more ass live than they did in the studio, but S&A was one album where it seemed like the songs just didn't. I am a big fan of Armor and Sword (probably my favorite from the record), but it was a snoozer live. Even the rocking MalNar just seemed to lack something live. Hard to say why that was.

[RodrigoAltaf]

I loved S&A on my first listens, but rarely listen to it now. Too much mid-tempo. Even a song like The Larger Bowl, which I loved when it came out, nowadays feels so slow and boring, even though the chorus is so cool. The way the lyrics are written on The Larger Bowl is quite inventive - every verse starts with the phrase that ended the previous one. But that doesn´t warrant another listen for me, sadly.

With Clockwork Angels, two things prevent me from enjoying it more: the insane amount of compression and Geddy´s voice, which was starting to get cringeworthy even in the studio. I think they gave all they had on that album, including Geddy singing in a much higher register than he was doing in their other recent efforts, and it does show that he´s struggling there a bunch of times - Seven Cities of Gold, I´m looking at you! And yeah, it does sound muddy. The riffing on Headlong Flight should be amazing to hear, but the end result hurts my ears!

[Lethean]

I think Rush is great at mid tempo songs, and maybe that's why I don't have a problem with Snakes and Arrows.  I don't listen to it all the time, but probably about as much as most Rush albums.

[KevShmev]

With Clockwork Angels, two things prevent me from enjoying it more: the insane amount of compression and Geddy´s voice, which was starting to get cringeworthy even in the studio. I think they gave all they had on that album, including Geddy singing in a much higher register than he was doing in their other recent efforts, and it does show that he´s struggling there a bunch of times - Seven Cities of Gold, I´m looking at you! And yeah, it does sound muddy. The riffing on Headlong Flight should be amazing to hear, but the end result hurts my ears!

I just imagine if Clockwork Angels had the sound and production of Counterparts... *salivates*

I still think the album is great enough to overcome the muddy sound, but it still should sound better, damn it.

[RodrigoAltaf]

With Clockwork Angels, two things prevent me from enjoying it more: the insane amount of compression and Geddy´s voice, which was starting to get cringeworthy even in the studio. I think they gave all they had on that album, including Geddy singing in a much higher register than he was doing in their other recent efforts, and it does show that he´s struggling there a bunch of times - Seven Cities of Gold, I´m looking at you! And yeah, it does sound muddy. The riffing on Headlong Flight should be amazing to hear, but the end result hurts my ears!

I just imagine if Clockwork Angels had the sound and production of Counterparts... *salivates*

I still think the album is great enough to overcome the muddy sound, but it still should sound better, damn it.

Well they"fixed" VT officially, but even before that there were some other fan made remixes that improved it greatly, so one can dream, right?

[Fritzinger]

I never had a problem with the original production of Vapor Trails. I always thought it went well with the whole in your face attitude of the album.
The newer mix is also great though.

[Snow Dog]

My main issue with S&A is that it feels like they tried to write/fit the music to Neil's lyrics. I'd rather write lyrics to good music, rather than the other way around. It just falls flat to me, which is a shame because the album sounds awesome.

I gave S&A a spin last week for the sake of this discussion and to more specifically answer why I don’t like the album. Reasons more than “It’s a bunch of filler,” or “The songs are all mid tempo.” This was one of those more specific reasons. It definitely feels like Neil, in his then newly begun anti-religion crusade, handed Geddy and Alex a pile of lyrics and said, “These *are* going on the record. Make them work.” The result ended up with an awkwardly metered vocal delivery that didn’t seem to have much flow in places. That’s also excluding that the vocal melodies themselves weren’t that varied and were very uninteresting to me. Far Cry is about the only one that really keeps my attention throughout.

The other big reason for me would be that aside from a handful of songs, it just feels so un-Rush-like. To clarify that, a lot of those songs don’t have any memorable hooks or riffs, and so many of them just lack that characteristic “busyness” Rush is known for. I absolutely welcome some change in styles from record to record, as I love 90% of their back catalogue. But even with those stylistic changes, they kept enough of their own sound through the years that it was still undeniably Rush. Aside from Far Cry, TMMB, MalNar, and maybe We Hold On, if I didn’t know who wrote the rest of the album, I likely wouldn’t be able to identify what band actually wrote and recorded it (excluding recognizing Geddy’s voice).

Those are probably the biggest two reasons why S&A doesn’t resonate with me and falls flat. And why I, no joke, fell asleep the first time I spun the record. I hope it finally clicks someday, but I’m not optimistic it will.

[Polarbear]

I think Rush is great at mid tempo songs, and maybe that's why I don't have a problem with Snakes and Arrows.  I don't listen to it all the time, but probably about as much as most Rush albums.

Yup, I really dig Snakes&Arrows!

Lyrically along with Moving Pictures and Power Windows, it is Neil's finest work Imo. Bravest Face is one of my favorite, post late 90's tragedy Rush songs!

[nobloodyname]

I think Rush is great at mid tempo songs, and maybe that's why I don't have a problem with Snakes and Arrows.  I don't listen to it all the time, but probably about as much as most Rush albums.

Lyrically along with Moving Pictures and Power Windows, it is Neil's finest work Imo.

Yes, I agree with this. Lyrically, the album really works for me. Not so much musically, alas.

[pg1067]

The other big reason for me would be that aside from a handful of songs, it just feels so un-Rush-like. To clarify that, a lot of those songs don’t have any memorable hooks or riffs, and so many of them just lack that characteristic “busyness” Rush is known for.

I agree with this and would expand it to much of the second half of Rush's career.  Way too many of the songs are characterized by almost nothing other than chord playing without much in the way of melody or hooks or riffs.  Nothing like the intro riffs of The Spirit of Radio or Tom Sawyer or even something like Show Don't Tell.

[King Postwhore]

The other big reason for me would be that aside from a handful of songs, it just feels so un-Rush-like. To clarify that, a lot of those songs don’t have any memorable hooks or riffs, and so many of them just lack that characteristic “busyness” Rush is known for.

I agree with this and would expand it to much of the second half of Rush's career.  Way too many of the songs are characterized by almost nothing other than chord playing without much in the way of melody or hooks or riffs.  Nothing like the intro riffs of The Spirit of Radio or Tom Sawyer or even something like Show Don't Tell.

Driven?  Half The World?  Nobody's Hero?  Cold Fire?  Vapor Trails?  How It Is?  Everyday Glory?  Faithless?  The Larger Bowl?  The Wreckers?   The Garden? Clockwork Angels?


None of those have no Melody?   I cry shenanigans!

[Lethean]

The other big reason for me would be that aside from a handful of songs, it just feels so un-Rush-like. To clarify that, a lot of those songs don’t have any memorable hooks or riffs, and so many of them just lack that characteristic “busyness” Rush is known for.

I agree with this and would expand it to much of the second half of Rush's career.  Way too many of the songs are characterized by almost nothing other than chord playing without much in the way of melody or hooks or riffs.  Nothing like the intro riffs of The Spirit of Radio or Tom Sawyer or even something like Show Don't Tell.

Driven?  Half The World?  Nobody's Hero?  Cold Fire?  Vapor Trails?  How It Is?  Everyday Glory?  Faithless?  The Larger Bowl?  The Wreckers?   The Garden? Clockwork Angels?


None of those have no Melody?   I cry shenanigans!

Indeed.

[busty sinclair]

CA is my 3rd favorite rush record behind PW and MP. I know right? I looked at what i originally put as my three favorites and i would change them all now.

Clockwork angels
the anarchist
the garden (which would easily go in my top 5 rush songs of all time)

[Architeuthis]

My fav songs on CA are. The Anarchist, The Wreckers, and Headlong Flight. The whole album is great though..

[pg1067]

The other big reason for me would be that aside from a handful of songs, it just feels so un-Rush-like. To clarify that, a lot of those songs don’t have any memorable hooks or riffs, and so many of them just lack that characteristic “busyness” Rush is known for.

I agree with this and would expand it to much of the second half of Rush's career.  Way too many of the songs are characterized by almost nothing other than chord playing without much in the way of melody or hooks or riffs.  Nothing like the intro riffs of The Spirit of Radio or Tom Sawyer or even something like Show Don't Tell.

Driven?  Half The World?  Nobody's Hero?  Cold Fire?  Vapor Trails?  How It Is?  Everyday Glory?  Faithless?  The Larger Bowl?  The Wreckers?   The Garden? Clockwork Angels?


None of those have no Melody?   I cry shenanigans!

I said much of (not all of) the second half of Rush's career.  You've referenced a few of the better songs from the era, but the last five are, IMO, good examples of what I'm talking about.  I can't think of a memorable melody or hook from The Garden, and I just listened to it over the weekend (in yet another vain effort to figure out why so many folks here are so enamored of it).  Note that I'm distinguishing musical and vocal melodies/hooks.

[King Postwhore]

I am and I think you are wrong.Most would agree with me as well.  The more chordal riffs you talk about is the by product of going back to Guitar, Bass and drums with little keyboards.  I can add a ton more songs that have melody to them.


They're just not the types of melodies you like.

[Snow Dog]

I agree with that there is plenty of melody to be found in the later releases, but it’s more rhythmic in nature rather than in a lead playing sense. I’d also argue that this style began more from Vapor Trails onward rather than at any point before. But even with Vapor Trails and Clockwork Angels, there was still that “Rushian” element present. Where the difference likely lies with me and pg is our definition of the Rush sound. I have no reference of how long he’s followed the band, but I got into them right around Test For Echo’s release. So that more chordal melodic progression is what I’ve always been accustomed to, whereas if pg has been listening since, say, the 2112 days, his perspective may be different. But to say there’s been no melody at all the latter half of Rush’s career is something I disagree with.

There’s even melody on S&A. It’s just slow and boring.

[KevShmev]

There is plenty of melody on every Rush album, but the type of melodies definitely changed a bit over the last handful of albums.  I would say that much of that had to do with Alex (generally) going with a grittier and heavier guitar tone, and once Geddy went back to that aggressive bass tone on Counterparts, he stuck with it since.  So, the overall tones weren't as warm as they were in the 80's and early 90's, but the melodies are still aplenty.

[ReaperKK]

Had a road trip two days back and I put on Clockwork Angels for the first time since release. I really enjoyed it but the production seemed off to me, it might be to do with the amount of music I listened to before listening to CA and it just sounded different but I wasn't really a fan. I'm going to give it another spin on my back home.

[Architeuthis]

Had a road trip two days back and I put on Clockwork Angels for the first time since release. I really enjoyed it but the production seemed off to me, it might be to do with the amount of music I listened to before listening to CA and it just sounded different but I wasn't really a fan. I'm going to give it another spin on my back home.

The production is a bit muddy, especially the drums. It was like that on the CA tour as well. I saw them in Seattle on that tour and the whole production sounded muddy. A lot of people were blaming it on the venue but I've been to other Rush tours at the same venue that sounded great. When the CA blu-ray came out, the same exact problem. The drums are muffled and the whole sound is underwhelming throughout the whole show.
 I don't understand how a band and crew of that caliber and experience could not get that right. Especially after having a long history of a great sound. What the heck happened?? 

[Architeuthis]

Also what was the deal with the pyrotechnics on the Clockwork Angels and R40 tours?? The flames are cool, but the explosions were beyond insulting to the ears and damaging. I remember the explosions from the previous tours weren't even 1/4 that loud.  Those deafening pops are not necessary for a Rush concert, only distracting.. 

[Nick]

Also what was the deal with the pyrotechnics on the Clockwork Angels and R40 tours?? The flames are cool, but the explosions were beyond insulting to the ears and damaging. I remember the explosions from the previous tours weren't even 1/4 that loud.  Those deafening pops are not necessary for a Rush concert, only distracting.. 

I saw multiple shows on both tours, and many of the explosions were the same. Maybe something was funky with where you happened to be in your venue, but they certainly did not increase their volume 4x.

[Architeuthis]

Also what was the deal with the pyrotechnics on the Clockwork Angels and R40 tours?? The flames are cool, but the explosions were beyond insulting to the ears and damaging. I remember the explosions from the previous tours weren't even 1/4 that loud.  Those deafening pops are not necessary for a Rush concert, only distracting.. 

I saw multiple shows on both tours, and many of the explosions were the same. Maybe something was funky with where you happened to be in your venue, but they certainly did not increase their volume 4x.

I'm talking about the Clockwork Angels and R40 tours both having the ridiculously loud explosions. The explosions on the Snakes and Arrows and Time machine tours were way easier on the ears yet still effective.

[King Postwhore]

So what's the Big deal if the explosions were loud?

[TAC]

What?

[Architeuthis]

So what's the Big deal if the explosions were loud?

Because it hurt my ears and they immediately started ringing. The music levels were fine, but those explosions were way overkill!

[King Postwhore]

I've been to 250 concerts in my lifetime and explosions never been the problem. High volume has always been the problem. what I feel to do is listen to friends I pay for specialized ear plugs so expensive, if your concert tour completely worth filtering out high and noises they making the Concert Experience worthwhile.

[jammindude]

Only problem I ever had with an explosion was when some ash (or something?) from the explosion got in my eye at a Motley Crue show.  I honestly thought I was going to have to go to the hospital.   It hurt like hell.  But my eye finally watered enough to flush it out.  I wonder if you can sue for something like that?  You'd think that pyrotechnics from a show wouldn't have "shrapnel" like that.

[TAC]

Hey, Motley Crue is not for pussies!

[jammindude]

 

What makes it even funnier was that my best friend and I went to the GGG tour in 87ish.   We didn't even like Motley Crue anymore, we just wanted to see girls running around in their underwear (we weren't disappointed).    But my best friend got up front when Nikki started dousing the crowd with an entire bottle of Jack Daniels.     He managed to get a rather big splash on my best friend.....right...in...the eye. 

What does MC have against eyes?   

DON'T EVER SEE MOTLEY CRUE!!  THEY WILL PUT YOUR EYE OUT!!!

but I digress.   

[Stadler]

As a Kiss fan, I've heard my share of explosions... the only time it ever bothered me was AC/DC, when the cannons went off during For Those About To Rock; I could feel it in my chest and it was unnerving.

[pg1067]

What makes it even funnier was that my best friend and I went to the GGG tour in 87ish.   We didn't even like Motley Crue anymore, we just wanted to see girls running around in their underwear (we weren't disappointed).    But my best friend got up front when Nikki started dousing the crowd with an entire bottle of Jack Daniels.     He managed to get a rather big splash on my best friend.....right...in...the eye. 

What does MC have against eyes?   

DON'T EVER SEE MOTLEY CRUE!!  THEY WILL PUT YOUR EYE OUT!!!

but I digress.

Ha!  This was me on the GGG tour in Long Beach.  I also didn't really like Crue anymore.  We had seats in the second row on the floor, left side, more or less right in front of Nikki.  I got a good dousing of Jack Daniels during his "bass solo" as well.