Author Topic: All musicians unite! - The Musicians Chat Thread  (Read 300640 times)

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Offline BlobVanDam

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Re: All musicians unite! - The Musicians Chat Thread
« Reply #910 on: August 07, 2015, 08:07:27 AM »
I treated myself to a Yamaha PSR-230 Keyboard
- it was €10 in a store, so why not? It has MIDI in/out - so I can use it in Logic! Very nice, and it's from 1996, so is actually the newest full size keyboard I've ever owned.

For the price, that makes a great cheap MIDI controller. Anything 5 octaves and above is good, especially for using in a sequencer.


This is what I've got, bought it several years ago.
Only King could mis-spell a LETTER.
Yep. I think the only party in the MP/DT situation that hasn't moved on is DTF.

Offline BlobVanDam

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Re: All musicians unite! - The Musicians Chat Thread
« Reply #911 on: August 07, 2015, 08:07:40 AM »
(accidental double post)
Only King could mis-spell a LETTER.
Yep. I think the only party in the MP/DT situation that hasn't moved on is DTF.

Offline James Mypetgiress

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Re: All musicians unite! - The Musicians Chat Thread
« Reply #912 on: August 07, 2015, 08:31:08 AM »
Looks cool. I accidentally posted in the wrong thread (whoops) - my only issue is that it didn't come with a MIDI to USB to plug into my computer - the only good ones are around 40€ (a roland one) and the cheap 3€ (PROXIMA Direct or other "china brand") all get really mixed reviews. I'd rather not spend more on a cable than I did on the actual device  :lol (also, amazon doesn't have a greek page, so I'm forced to shop from the UK store and pay a butt ton of money to ship  :-\ )

Offline BlobVanDam

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Re: All musicians unite! - The Musicians Chat Thread
« Reply #913 on: August 07, 2015, 09:04:42 AM »
Nothing inbetween? I wouldn't think you'd need anything too fancy. For the price, one of the cheap ones might be worth it for the meantime, even if it's not perfect (depending on how bad the reviews are).

Being a newer keyboard, mine supports native USB already luckily (along with standard MIDI too of course).
Only King could mis-spell a LETTER.
Yep. I think the only party in the MP/DT situation that hasn't moved on is DTF.

Offline Orbert

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Re: All musicians unite! - The Musicians Chat Thread
« Reply #914 on: August 07, 2015, 10:02:45 AM »
I would've grabbed it, too, for that price.

Offline James Mypetgiress

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Re: All musicians unite! - The Musicians Chat Thread
« Reply #915 on: August 07, 2015, 01:37:37 PM »
I would've grabbed it, too, for that price.
That's why I did  :lol Great pick up. Even without the MIDI functionality, it's better than the full size keyboard I had previously.

Offline MoraWintersoul

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Re: All musicians unite! - The Musicians Chat Thread
« Reply #916 on: August 11, 2015, 01:25:55 PM »
What would you guys get as the perfect beginner's keyboard on a budget? I'm not thinking of anything fancy, but next year I'd really like to learn to play SOMETHING and keys have always appealed to me (I like Kevin Moore, duh). Keep in mind I'd probs have to get it delivered all the way from somewhere, but that I'd also like it to sound kinda decent as I might not have the funds to get another one as soon as I want to :lol

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Offline James Mypetgiress

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Re: All musicians unite! - The Musicians Chat Thread
« Reply #917 on: August 11, 2015, 01:39:40 PM »
What would you guys get as the perfect beginner's keyboard on a budget? I'm not thinking of anything fancy, but next year I'd really like to learn to play SOMETHING and keys have always appealed to me (I like Kevin Moore, duh). Keep in mind I'd probs have to get it delivered all the way from somewhere, but that I'd also like it to sound kinda decent as I might not have the funds to get another one as soon as I want to :lol
Look in thrift stores/charity shops. You may pick up a great deal. Or get a MIDI keyboard you can plug into your computer. I can't recommend getting a standalone keyboard now, though.

Offline MoraWintersoul

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Re: All musicians unite! - The Musicians Chat Thread
« Reply #918 on: August 11, 2015, 01:56:29 PM »
Look in thrift stores/charity shops.
The thing is I live in a small city of a small country and I'm not sure what to look for. I have one friend who plays the keyboards and he could probably hook me up with something sweet, but since he's both a perfectionist and a hoarder I'm not sure whether he has the nose for beginner-friendly bargain deals :lol

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Offline James Mypetgiress

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Re: All musicians unite! - The Musicians Chat Thread
« Reply #919 on: August 12, 2015, 07:19:15 AM »
Look in thrift stores/charity shops.
The thing is I live in a small city of a small country and I'm not sure what to look for. I have one friend who plays the keyboards and he could probably hook me up with something sweet, but since he's both a perfectionist and a hoarder I'm not sure whether he has the nose for beginner-friendly bargain deals :lol
To be honest, anything by the big name brands is usually okay for beginners. Looking for names like Yamaha, Casio, Roland etc. Make a note of the model number, and research it. Check the amount of voices it has (the amount of keys you can press at once) and if it has touch responsive keys and such. That's about all I can say.

Offline MoraWintersoul

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Re: All musicians unite! - The Musicians Chat Thread
« Reply #920 on: August 12, 2015, 10:06:21 AM »
Thank you!

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Offline BlobVanDam

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Re: All musicians unite! - The Musicians Chat Thread
« Reply #921 on: August 12, 2015, 10:46:29 AM »
All good advice. Any better brand keyboard from the past decade at least should have a variety of decent sounds.  It probably doesn't need to be said, but I wouldn't bother with anything less than 5 octaves (and you wouldn't be getting anything bigger if you're n a budget). Even for a beginner, less than that is very restrictive even for simple piano stuff.
Only King could mis-spell a LETTER.
Yep. I think the only party in the MP/DT situation that hasn't moved on is DTF.

Offline James Mypetgiress

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Re: All musicians unite! - The Musicians Chat Thread
« Reply #922 on: August 12, 2015, 11:44:08 AM »
Yup. 50+ keys, I would say.

Offline Orbert

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Re: All musicians unite! - The Musicians Chat Thread
« Reply #923 on: August 12, 2015, 12:06:38 PM »
It should be noted that if the ultimate goal is to play the piano, then no electronic keyboard can ever give you that experience.  The keys are basically switches with two positions: up and down, off and on.  Velocity-sensitive keys can help just the tiniest bit, but nothing can emulate the touch of a piano.  (The closest thing to a real piano in an electronic box is the Clavinova by Yamaha.  An excellent facsimile in terms of both sound and feel.  But from the sounds of things, that's not in the budget.)  My point is that if the ultimate goal is playing the piano, then starting on an electronic keyboard will do irreparable damage to the development of proper technique and should be avoided at all costs.

If the goal is just to learn to play "keyboards" then the only real restrictions are to stick to keyboards with full-sized keys, and try to get at least four octaves.  Five is pretty common (61-key keyboards), but there are decent four-octave keyboards out there.  I would think that you can get lucky and score one for pretty cheap, but you have to be vigilant.  They do show up at the second hand shops, but they don't last long.

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Re: All musicians unite! - The Musicians Chat Thread
« Reply #924 on: August 12, 2015, 01:47:11 PM »
After some Googling I found a couple of relatively cheap Casio keyboards for beginners that don't look too bad to me, based on the descriptions:

Casio CTK-2400
Casio CTK-3200

Both have 61 piano-style keys, 400 sounds, 48-note polyphony and can be plugged into a computer using USB. As Orbert said, nothing can replace an actual piano, but piano-style keys are at least a tiny bit more authentic than the light keys on my first Yamaha. I became a decent piano player despite learning all the songs for my lessons on it, though... :P

I'd pick 3200, because it doesn't cost a lot more and has some extra features, but 2400 should be passable too, if money is tight. However, out of these two, only 3200 has a pitch bend wheel, so you should buy that one if you wanna do some KevMo-style pitch bending á la Caught in a Web and Lie. :D

Offline Orbert

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Re: All musicians unite! - The Musicians Chat Thread
« Reply #925 on: August 12, 2015, 02:50:27 PM »
As Orbert said, nothing can replace an actual piano, but piano-style keys are at least a tiny bit more authentic than the light keys on my first Yamaha. I became a decent piano player despite learning all the songs for my lessons on it, though... :P

That's my classical snob showing, I guess.  I suppose it's possible to eventually move from plastic keys to playing an acoustic piano, but it seems like it would be a horrible transition to suddenly encounter the actual weight, resistance, and action of acoustic piano keys.  Just going from an upright to a grand piano can be tough.  Playing a grand after years of only having to push plastic tabs up and down has got to mean sore and tired fingers for days afterwards.

And I honestly can't imagine learning the proper release technique, or pedal technique, at a later date.  These skills are learned and developed at the same time as simply reading notes and associating them to the keys.

Offline James Mypetgiress

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Re: All musicians unite! - The Musicians Chat Thread
« Reply #926 on: August 12, 2015, 03:45:55 PM »
I've never used a "proper" piano - so... I don't know what they feel like.

Offline Orbert

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Re: All musicians unite! - The Musicians Chat Thread
« Reply #927 on: August 12, 2015, 04:30:30 PM »


There are 88 of these inside a piano, one for each key.  Pressing down on a key (58)... does nothing.  You literally must strike or hit the keys to get any sound.  This is because the release mechanism is set up so that hitting a key results in the hammer (6) flying up and hitting the string (1) but then falling away so that the string can resonate freely, as long as you hold down the key.  Once you release it, the damper (2 & 3) comes down and presses against the string, silencing it.  Pressing a key slowly either causes slippage resulting in no action at all, or just causes the hammer to rise up and press against the string, and since the hammer head is made of felt, it will stifle the string.

My point is that there is a technique which must be mastered before you can get beyond just plunking out a melody.  Pianists' fingers do these things automatically, because if you actually had to think about it, you'd never be able to play anything.  It's all muscle memory.

If you know the notes and the keys, that's a good start, but that's all it is.  Actually working the instrument, controlling what it does via the keys and pedals, is what takes years of practice.  "I know how to read music and hit the right keys" is not the same as "I can play the piano".  An electronic keyboard can help you learn the notes, but practicing pushing plastic keys down will do little towards teaching your fingers how to work actual piano keys, other than where the keys themselves are.  It just seems to me that it would be really hard for one's fingers to make the transition.

When I was 10, I took piano lessons.  I learned to read music and played a 3rd-year piece at the class recital, which was three months after I'd started.  Being even more arrogant and obnoxious than I am now (imagine!) I decided that I had learned to play the piano, which is what the lessons were for, so I quit.  The idea of taking lessons for years and years just seemed stupid to me.  My sister went the other way.  She took lessons for years and years, studied with Van Cliburn, and at one time considered a career as a concert pianist.  She can play anything that's written, but cannot play a single note without it being written down in front of her.

When I quit, what I didn't realize is that those stupid pedal exercises that my teacher made me do actually taught me proper pedal technique.  Those scales, literally running up and down the keyboard over and over, taught my fingers fluidity, and also consistency.  The harder you strike a key, the louder the note is played, and the goal is to make everything smooth.  My teacher assigned lessons from each of four books every week; pedals studies, scales, and two different method books.  I didn't realize it at the time, but she was a great teacher.

I've seen and worked with kids who took piano lessons, sometimes for years, but they can't play a piano.  They can play notes, but they can't work the pedals, and there's no dynamic control in their fingers.  You can't learn that on a plastic keyboard.

Okay, I'll shut up now.

Offline Kotowboy

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Re: All musicians unite! - The Musicians Chat Thread
« Reply #928 on: August 12, 2015, 05:24:47 PM »
TL;DR - a real piano feels nothing like a synthesizer piano.

Offline BlobVanDam

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Re: All musicians unite! - The Musicians Chat Thread
« Reply #929 on: August 13, 2015, 03:21:35 AM »
My keyboard has fully weighted piano style keys, I have a 2gb sampled piano VSTi with all of the dynamics levels covered, and a sustain pedal. Ignore the snobbery. :biggrin: (still love you, Orby)
Only King could mis-spell a LETTER.
Yep. I think the only party in the MP/DT situation that hasn't moved on is DTF.

Offline Orbert

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Re: All musicians unite! - The Musicians Chat Thread
« Reply #930 on: August 13, 2015, 07:34:29 AM »
(nice, but it's still not the same  :P (love you too, Blob))

Offline James Mypetgiress

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Re: All musicians unite! - The Musicians Chat Thread
« Reply #931 on: August 13, 2015, 07:47:16 AM »
I saw that post and thought: "so... that's an essay... not reading that"

Offline BlobVanDam

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Re: All musicians unite! - The Musicians Chat Thread
« Reply #932 on: August 13, 2015, 07:50:07 AM »
(nice, but it's still not the same  :P (love you too, Blob))


Oh I'm not arguing it's the same by any means, I just disagree with the general sentiment that you can't learn to properly play a piano on an electronic keyboard, because the high end ones do a very reasonable simulation of one these days. Of course it won't ever replace the real deal, but for most situations it's close enough for all intents and purposes. I've played real pianos often, and I've played both high end and low end keyboards, and there is a lot of difference, so I do understand where you're coming from.


I saw that post and thought: "so... that's an essay... not reading that"

You should always read an Orbert post, because they're full of wisdom.
Only King could mis-spell a LETTER.
Yep. I think the only party in the MP/DT situation that hasn't moved on is DTF.

Offline Sir GuitarCozmo

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Re: All musicians unite! - The Musicians Chat Thread
« Reply #933 on: August 13, 2015, 10:16:24 AM »
Anne emailed everyone a recording she'd made of us doing "Separate Ways".  She said it wasn't as bad as she'd thought, and she's willing to give it another shot, but either she sings it solo or we do some real work on the background vocals.

If it helps at all I'd checked this song out years ago, to possibly do.  The chorus harmonies are actually fairly easy to remember, as the harmony notes above and below the melody do not change.  The upper note is a B, throughout and the lower note is an E, throughout.  I just double checked this on the little piano app on my phone to make sure I remembered right.  Of course it sounds odd, because the melody part has an A and an F# in it, then the backing chords are Em, D, and C.

I'm almost positive this is how I remember it, so give it a listen, try those harmony notes, and see what happens.

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Re: All musicians unite! - The Musicians Chat Thread
« Reply #934 on: August 13, 2015, 10:19:47 AM »
There's also the pre-chorus harmony a 3rd below.

I think the point is more the singing ability than knowing what the parts are. The lower E in the chorus is easy enough (and you could either forgo the higher B, or do it an octave lower, which I'm not sure they don't also do anyway), but the pre-chorus harmony may present some trouble for an average male vocalist.
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Yep. I think the only party in the MP/DT situation that hasn't moved on is DTF.

Offline Sir GuitarCozmo

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Re: All musicians unite! - The Musicians Chat Thread
« Reply #935 on: August 13, 2015, 10:22:04 AM »
Oh yeah, I get it.  It ain't an easy song to pull off, regardless.  Just putting out the info.  I was just sitting here thinking about the pre-chorus harmony and thinking "I'm pretty sure there's only the lower harmony there".  I didn't think that pre-chorus harmony was very demanding, but maybe I'm not remembering right.  I'm kinda out of it lately.  :lol

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Re: All musicians unite! - The Musicians Chat Thread
« Reply #936 on: August 13, 2015, 10:24:13 AM »
Yep, prechorus is just the two parts, lead and harmony. The chorus has more layers, but they're dead simple parts if you can hit the note. The pre-chorus melody isn't that hard if you're a solid vocalist, goes from an E4 up to a G4 (A4 briefly), so the range is narrow, but it may be upper range for regular dudes.
Only King could mis-spell a LETTER.
Yep. I think the only party in the MP/DT situation that hasn't moved on is DTF.

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Re: All musicians unite! - The Musicians Chat Thread
« Reply #937 on: August 13, 2015, 10:26:54 AM »
The fortunate thing about the high harmony is that, if you can hit it, it doesn't last very long, so it doesn't tire you out too badly.  I always do the high harmonies in anything we do, because nobody else can do them, despite the fact that my talking voice is decidedly UN-high.

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Re: All musicians unite! - The Musicians Chat Thread
« Reply #938 on: August 13, 2015, 10:30:38 AM »
And also because it's a BG vocal and doesn't move around in register, falsetto is ok.
Only King could mis-spell a LETTER.
Yep. I think the only party in the MP/DT situation that hasn't moved on is DTF.

Offline Orbert

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Re: All musicians unite! - The Musicians Chat Thread
« Reply #939 on: August 13, 2015, 10:52:08 AM »
The chorus harmonies are actually fairly easy to remember, as the harmony notes above and below the melody do not change.  The upper note is a B, throughout and the lower note is an E, throughout. 

That's exactly what it sounds like to me.  I could not convince the others that this is the case.

And also because it's a BG vocal and doesn't move around in register, falsetto is ok.

I'm making some progress convincing them of this.  To me, the important part is that the notes be there, and if it's just background vocals, quality of voice is far less important.

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Re: All musicians unite! - The Musicians Chat Thread
« Reply #940 on: August 13, 2015, 10:58:49 AM »
The chorus harmonies are actually fairly easy to remember, as the harmony notes above and below the melody do not change.  The upper note is a B, throughout and the lower note is an E, throughout. 

That's exactly what it sounds like to me.  I could not convince the others that this is the case.

And also because it's a BG vocal and doesn't move around in register, falsetto is ok.

I'm making some progress convincing them of this.  To me, the important part is that the notes be there, and if it's just background vocals, quality of voice is far less important.

When it comes to background vocals, pitch is much more important than tonal quality or how you hit the note. People are focusing on the lead vocal, with the background vocals just adding fullness, as long as they're not mixed louder than they should be.
Only King could mis-spell a LETTER.
Yep. I think the only party in the MP/DT situation that hasn't moved on is DTF.

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Re: All musicians unite! - The Musicians Chat Thread
« Reply #941 on: August 13, 2015, 10:59:05 AM »
I actually, on my little android screen piano, tapped out the upper, lower, and melody notes all at the same time and it sounded just right.  I can see how it would be tough to believe (the harmonies don't move AT ALL??  With different chords in the background that aren't Em??  Bullshit!), but that's most definitely how it goes.

Offline MoraWintersoul

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Re: All musicians unite! - The Musicians Chat Thread
« Reply #942 on: August 13, 2015, 12:06:55 PM »
It should be noted that if the ultimate goal is to play the piano, then no electronic keyboard can ever give you that experience.
I would be happy with just playing the keys. I mean, pianos are beautiful, but when would I ever get a chance or the need to play one? Most music I like is either guitar-driven or electronic and I'd find music school pretty boring (although I guess most people need to be taught in that environment, so I might be too). I never knew there would be so much of a difference though!

Thanks y'all! Hopefully I'll join you on this thread properly when I get more space in life :)

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Offline Kotowboy

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Re: All musicians unite! - The Musicians Chat Thread
« Reply #943 on: August 13, 2015, 03:23:37 PM »
The chorus harmonies are actually fairly easy to remember, as the harmony notes above and below the melody do not change.  The upper note is a B, throughout and the lower note is an E, throughout. 

That's exactly what it sounds like to me.  I could not convince the others that this is the case.

And also because it's a BG vocal and doesn't move around in register, falsetto is ok.

I'm making some progress convincing them of this.  To me, the important part is that the notes be there, and if it's just background vocals, quality of voice is far less important.

When it comes to background vocals, pitch is much more important than tonal quality or how you hit the note. People are focusing on the lead vocal, with the background vocals just adding fullness, as long as they're not mixed louder than they should be.

I'm definitely a backing vocalist :lol

Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: All musicians unite! - The Musicians Chat Thread
« Reply #944 on: August 18, 2015, 06:26:50 AM »
In August/September, my pastor will be giving a sermon series on rock songs that display various Christian themes.  I think we will be allowed to play one every week.

 :metal

So this started this past week.  The theme was Songs of Power (joy, exuberance, celebration, etc).

We did Old-Time Rock N Roll.  Not my favorite song, but definitely a toe-tapper, and everyone really enjoyed it.

Not sure yet what is coming this week.
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