Author Topic: All musicians unite! - The Musicians Chat Thread  (Read 300863 times)

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Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: All musicians unite! - The Musicians Chat Thread
« Reply #560 on: January 23, 2015, 09:58:15 AM »
 :tup
Hef is right on all things. Except for when I disagree with him. In which case he's probably still right.

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Re: All musicians unite! - The Musicians Chat Thread
« Reply #561 on: January 23, 2015, 10:54:17 AM »
The '80s had the musicianship and the looks, and it all got stripped back with grunge, both visually and musically, and I find it all incredibly dull. Of course I couldn't care less what a band looks like when I'm listening to the music, but the grunge/alt era has zero appeal to me on any level, even musically.
Musicianship and presentation are not mutually exclusive goals at any rate. If you've got the music down, it's not affecting anything to at least dress like you belong on a stage, instead of in a garage. With no offense intended, if a band dresses like a bunch of 50 year old dudes, they're very likely doing something wrong. :lol

We're just going to have to disagree on that one, then.  I find most 80's music to be dull and lifeless.  Yeah, there's some nice arranging going on, and it all sounds great, but that's all it is.  Over-produced, slickly arranged product that sounds wonderful but has no heart or soul.  I don't find any emphasis on musicianship at all, just guys trying to sound good.  You don't have to be a good musician to sound good, you just need expensive equipment and an expensive producer, and that's what the 80's were full of.

Grunge reminded me of a return to 70's sound.  Strip away all the flashy synths and overproduction and get back to basics.  I guess if you grew up with 80's music, it would seem pretty dull by comparison, but I'd rather hear what the guys are playing, not what it sounds like after going through a million dollars' worth of electronic enhancement.  Grunge sounds like live music to me.  80's music sounds like studio product.


As for dressing like 50-year-old dudes, I don't even know what that means.  These guys



seem to be doing pretty well dressing like 50-year-old dudes.  If they still dressed like this



then that would be stupid.

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Re: All musicians unite! - The Musicians Chat Thread
« Reply #562 on: January 23, 2015, 11:07:50 AM »
I'm so glad I love 70s, 80s, 90s, 00s and 10s music.

Offline 1neeto

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Re: All musicians unite! - The Musicians Chat Thread
« Reply #563 on: January 23, 2015, 12:15:58 PM »
The '80s had the musicianship and the looks, and it all got stripped back with grunge, both visually and musically, and I find it all incredibly dull. Of course I couldn't care less what a band looks like when I'm listening to the music, but the grunge/alt era has zero appeal to me on any level, even musically.
Musicianship and presentation are not mutually exclusive goals at any rate. If you've got the music down, it's not affecting anything to at least dress like you belong on a stage, instead of in a garage. With no offense intended, if a band dresses like a bunch of 50 year old dudes, they're very likely doing something wrong. :lol

Seems like you're categorizing the grunge musicianship into one band; Nirvana. Pearl Jam has Mike McCready which is an amazing and often underrated guitar player. Soundgarden played with song structuring often reserved to prog rock. Alice in Chains has Jerry Cantrell who is yet another underrated guitar player. Yes the flamboyant guitar solos with the overuse of Floyd Rose dive bombs were gone, but to say that musicianship died in the 90's is ridiculous.

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Re: All musicians unite! - The Musicians Chat Thread
« Reply #564 on: January 23, 2015, 12:24:10 PM »
Agreed ^
I just don't understand what they were trying to achieve with any part of the song, either individually or as a whole. You know what? It's the Platypus of Dream Theater songs. That bill doesn't go with that tail, or that strange little furry body, or those webbed feet, and oh god why does it have venomous spurs!? And then you find out it lays eggs too. The difference is that the Platypus is somehow functional despite being a crazy mishmash or leftover animal pieces

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Offline Sir GuitarCozmo

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Re: All musicians unite! - The Musicians Chat Thread
« Reply #565 on: January 23, 2015, 12:34:54 PM »
The '80s had the musicianship and the looks, and it all got stripped back with grunge, both visually and musically, and I find it all incredibly dull. Of course I couldn't care less what a band looks like when I'm listening to the music, but the grunge/alt era has zero appeal to me on any level, even musically.
Musicianship and presentation are not mutually exclusive goals at any rate. If you've got the music down, it's not affecting anything to at least dress like you belong on a stage, instead of in a garage. With no offense intended, if a band dresses like a bunch of 50 year old dudes, they're very likely doing something wrong. :lol

Seems like you're categorizing the grunge musicianship into one band; Nirvana. Pearl Jam has Mike McCready which is an amazing and often underrated guitar player. Soundgarden played with song structuring often reserved to prog rock. Alice in Chains has Jerry Cantrell who is yet another underrated guitar player. Yes the flamboyant guitar solos with the overuse of Floyd Rose dive bombs were gone, but to say that musicianship died in the 90's is ridiculous.

The musicianship may not have died, but its intensity went from about a 4-alarm skyscraper fire to a backyard bonfire, IMO.  The things that made 80's music great were often looked down upon in the 90's - technical guitar expertise, guitar solos, upbeat songs about drinking, partying, and fucking lots of groupies, etc.

Offline 1neeto

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Re: All musicians unite! - The Musicians Chat Thread
« Reply #566 on: January 23, 2015, 06:25:41 PM »
The '80s had the musicianship and the looks, and it all got stripped back with grunge, both visually and musically, and I find it all incredibly dull. Of course I couldn't care less what a band looks like when I'm listening to the music, but the grunge/alt era has zero appeal to me on any level, even musically.
Musicianship and presentation are not mutually exclusive goals at any rate. If you've got the music down, it's not affecting anything to at least dress like you belong on a stage, instead of in a garage. With no offense intended, if a band dresses like a bunch of 50 year old dudes, they're very likely doing something wrong. :lol

Seems like you're categorizing the grunge musicianship into one band; Nirvana. Pearl Jam has Mike McCready which is an amazing and often underrated guitar player. Soundgarden played with song structuring often reserved to prog rock. Alice in Chains has Jerry Cantrell who is yet another underrated guitar player. Yes the flamboyant guitar solos with the overuse of Floyd Rose dive bombs were gone, but to say that musicianship died in the 90's is ridiculous.

The musicianship may not have died, but its intensity went from about a 4-alarm skyscraper fire to a backyard bonfire, IMO.  The things that made 80's music great were often looked down upon in the 90's - technical guitar expertise, guitar solos, upbeat songs about drinking, partying, and fucking lots of groupies, etc.

You mean the ridiculousness died out. Well I'm glad that it did. 90's bands played with their own way of intensity without the ridiculous outfits and eyeliner. There's nothing much to defend about 80's hair metal other than the glorification of the electric guitar, it was if anything an embarrassment to rock music. The previous decade was a whole lot better, and the following decade things started to go back to normal. 50 years from now people will still find Nirvana to be a cool band, can't really say the same for Poison or Cinderella or Skid Row.

Offline PuffyPat

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Re: All musicians unite! - The Musicians Chat Thread
« Reply #567 on: January 23, 2015, 09:46:32 PM »
Nirvana were great musicians. Sure, Kurt's guitar playing is wildly overblown, but he was still a pretty good guitar player, not to mention his song writing was incredible. Nobody ever talks about Krist, but he was a super solid bass player, and of course Dave Grohl is just a beast of a drummer. I'd take Nirvana over any 80s hair metal band 10 times out of 10.
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Offline Sir GuitarCozmo

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Re: All musicians unite! - The Musicians Chat Thread
« Reply #568 on: January 23, 2015, 09:53:53 PM »
I'm not sure I'd take Nirvana over the flu.

Offline BlobVanDam

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Re: All musicians unite! - The Musicians Chat Thread
« Reply #569 on: January 23, 2015, 09:59:27 PM »
Likewise. I'd take the flu over any grunge band 10 times out of 10. At least you can recover from the flu in a few days. Rock music is still feeling under the weather after being infected with grunge over 20 years ago.
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Yep. I think the only party in the MP/DT situation that hasn't moved on is DTF.

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Re: All musicians unite! - The Musicians Chat Thread
« Reply #570 on: January 23, 2015, 11:09:32 PM »
50 years from now people will still find Nirvana to be a cool band, can't really say the same for Poison or Cinderella or Skid Row.

I still find Alice in Chains, Soundgarden and Foo Fighters much better than Nirvana.  Nirvana never really did it for me.

Offline BlobVanDam

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Re: All musicians unite! - The Musicians Chat Thread
« Reply #571 on: January 23, 2015, 11:21:48 PM »
:rollin I didn't even see that comment by 1neeto. But I guess it helps when you die and get overrated to unwarranted legend status.

Speaking of which, I'd take Warrant over Nirvana any day too. :biggrin: Not to mention all of the other great '80s bands that have and will continue to endure for decades to come. But people here only seem to mention Poison. It says a lot that even the bad hair metal is still that well known even to people completely ignorant of it! I don't think I could even name 5 grunge bands.

While I'm not into them, I could easier listen to AiC or Soundgarden than Nirvana though. And Chris Cornell sang my favourite Bond theme, so he gets a few points there.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2015, 11:37:12 PM by BlobVanDam »
Only King could mis-spell a LETTER.
Yep. I think the only party in the MP/DT situation that hasn't moved on is DTF.

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Re: All musicians unite! - The Musicians Chat Thread
« Reply #572 on: January 23, 2015, 11:56:51 PM »
I was into Soundgarden well before this song, but this is the song that made them a long term favorite
Jesus Christ Pose

Offline BlobVanDam

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Re: All musicians unite! - The Musicians Chat Thread
« Reply #573 on: January 24, 2015, 12:08:01 AM »
Musically I found that a bit monotonous and not too interesting, but I enjoyed the vocals, and I have respect for the band and the music. Still feeling the '80s influence on the vocals, much like how you can still hear the influence on the vocals on Pantera's Cowboy's From Hell. I could easily listen to this over Nirvana.
Only King could mis-spell a LETTER.
Yep. I think the only party in the MP/DT situation that hasn't moved on is DTF.

Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: All musicians unite! - The Musicians Chat Thread
« Reply #574 on: January 24, 2015, 02:53:08 AM »
50 years from now people will still find Nirvana to be a cool band, can't really say the same for Poison or Cinderella or Skid Row.

I still find Alice in Chains, Soundgarden and Foo Fighters much better than Nirvana.  Nirvana never really did it for me.
Same here.  I have no use for Nirvana, never did, but there is a lot to like about Soundgarden, and Alice In Chains was a favorite from Day 1.

I am a recent convert to Foo Fighters, but they are amazing, much better than Nirvana ever was.
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Offline Sir GuitarCozmo

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Re: All musicians unite! - The Musicians Chat Thread
« Reply #575 on: January 24, 2015, 11:37:45 AM »
:rollin I didn't even see that comment by 1neeto. But I guess it helps when you die and get overrated to unwarranted legend status.

Speaking of which, I'd take Warrant over Nirvana any day too. :biggrin: Not to mention all of the other great '80s bands that have and will continue to endure for decades to come. But people here only seem to mention Poison. It says a lot that even the bad hair metal is still that well known even to people completely ignorant of it! I don't think I could even name 5 grunge bands.

While I'm not into them, I could easier listen to AiC or Soundgarden than Nirvana though. And Chris Cornell sang my favourite Bond theme, so he gets a few points there.

*sets watch*

I dig Soundgarden, Foo Fighters, The Offspring, Green Day.  That's mostly about as far as it goes, though.

Offline PuffyPat

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Re: All musicians unite! - The Musicians Chat Thread
« Reply #576 on: January 24, 2015, 12:18:41 PM »
But I guess it helps when you die and get overrated to unwarranted legend status.

Nirvana weren't influential because Kurt Cobain killed himself. Nirvana were influential because people were sick and tired of dudes with big hair and make up in spandex playing 10 minute guitar solos, and singing about banging 34 groupies every night. They were a breath of fresh air in an industry that was clogged with the excess of the 80s. They were playing simple, but meaningful songs that more people could relate to, and writing them off because Kurt committed suicide is ridiculous.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2015, 12:26:10 PM by PuffyPat »
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Re: All musicians unite! - The Musicians Chat Thread
« Reply #577 on: January 24, 2015, 01:45:52 PM »
playing 10 minute guitar solos

Spoken like someone who has all the "I hate 80's music" attitude, but without being informed enough to use actual facts.  10 minute guitar solos are something you maybe hear in prog (I don't know as I cannot speak from experience), but certainly not 80's music.  An average hair metal guitar solo is probably anywhere from 30 to 45 seconds.  There might be an extended live solo, but Dream Theater did that for a very very long time also.  Oh noes, excessive!

I agree Nirvana weren't influential because Kurt killed himself (though that undoubtedly helped their popularity carry on a lot further than it might have).  Nirvana were influential for making it cool to not care about playing your guitar well.  That's my opinion, but saying that simple guitar playing and simple songs are more relatable to people is BS.  That would mean that nobody could relate to Dream Theater (to be fair, anymore, I can't relate to them).  I don't imagine you'd agree that DT, despite their complexity, is relatable to people.

Offline Orbert

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Re: All musicians unite! - The Musicians Chat Thread
« Reply #578 on: January 24, 2015, 02:08:27 PM »
I think it was just time for a change.  The music video forever melded music and fashion to a much greater degree than ever before, so the 80's were a unique time.  Trends in music and fashion come and go; some reach great heights and popularity, others do not, but eventually they all pass.  The 80's really took it to an extreme, and when it was time for a change, grunge was there.  I don't know if the simpler structure was more relatable or what, but it was different, and oftentimes just being different is what catches people's attention.

Offline PuffyPat

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Re: All musicians unite! - The Musicians Chat Thread
« Reply #579 on: January 24, 2015, 02:30:42 PM »
playing 10 minute guitar solos

Spoken like someone who has all the "I hate 80's music" attitude, but without being informed enough to use actual facts.  10 minute guitar solos are something you maybe hear in prog (I don't know as I cannot speak from experience), but certainly not 80's music.  An average hair metal guitar solo is probably anywhere from 30 to 45 seconds.  There might be an extended live solo, but Dream Theater did that for a very very long time also.  Oh noes, excessive!

I agree Nirvana weren't influential because Kurt killed himself (though that undoubtedly helped their popularity carry on a lot further than it might have).  Nirvana were influential for making it cool to not care about playing your guitar well.  That's my opinion, but saying that simple guitar playing and simple songs are more relatable to people is BS.  That would mean that nobody could relate to Dream Theater (to be fair, anymore, I can't relate to them).  I don't imagine you'd agree that DT, despite their complexity, is relatable to people.

I will admit the 10 minute guitar solo thing was a bit out there, but hyperbole is a thing, but that's besides the point. Anyways, I wasn't saying the simplicity was what people were relating to. The content was what people were relating to. The songs weren't about the excess, but there was a more personal nature to them that a broader audience found they could relate to.

Also, I love music from the 80s, just not hair metal. And I also don't listen to prog anymore because of the excessive self indulgence. It's just not my thing anymore.
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Offline Sir GuitarCozmo

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Re: All musicians unite! - The Musicians Chat Thread
« Reply #580 on: January 24, 2015, 02:45:39 PM »
I will most certainly applaud you for that! :lol

Offline JayOctavarium

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Re: All musicians unite! - The Musicians Chat Thread
« Reply #581 on: January 24, 2015, 02:56:40 PM »
This thread hurts my head.


You are all lesser than I because prog
I just don't understand what they were trying to achieve with any part of the song, either individually or as a whole. You know what? It's the Platypus of Dream Theater songs. That bill doesn't go with that tail, or that strange little furry body, or those webbed feet, and oh god why does it have venomous spurs!? And then you find out it lays eggs too. The difference is that the Platypus is somehow functional despite being a crazy mishmash or leftover animal pieces

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Offline Orbert

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Re: All musicians unite! - The Musicians Chat Thread
« Reply #582 on: January 24, 2015, 04:37:06 PM »
It's a chat thread.  By its very nature, it's supposed to go all over the place.  It got a bit one-dimensional there for a while (which is partly my fault, although I only have a few subjects I can chat about) so this is good.

Offline BlobVanDam

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Re: All musicians unite! - The Musicians Chat Thread
« Reply #583 on: January 24, 2015, 09:20:37 PM »
playing 10 minute guitar solos

Spoken like someone who has all the "I hate 80's music" attitude, but without being informed enough to use actual facts.  10 minute guitar solos are something you maybe hear in prog (I don't know as I cannot speak from experience), but certainly not 80's music.  An average hair metal guitar solo is probably anywhere from 30 to 45 seconds.  There might be an extended live solo, but Dream Theater did that for a very very long time also.  Oh noes, excessive!

I agree Nirvana weren't influential because Kurt killed himself (though that undoubtedly helped their popularity carry on a lot further than it might have).  Nirvana were influential for making it cool to not care about playing your guitar well.  That's my opinion, but saying that simple guitar playing and simple songs are more relatable to people is BS.  That would mean that nobody could relate to Dream Theater (to be fair, anymore, I can't relate to them).  I don't imagine you'd agree that DT, despite their complexity, is relatable to people.

The ignorance and narrow mindedness about '80s music here is really sad sometimes, given how open minded people claim to be. Most '80s bands were all about writing short accessible songs, with maybe a little bit of flash in the solo to stand out, but the more popular ones were the tasteful and melodic ones. The bands like Nitro weren't the ones that made it to the top. And then people criticize hair metal for being simple. You can't win!
Hair metal wasn't all about partying and screwing by any stretch either. There were lots off equally relatable songs about the common stuff like relationships, life, hardship, etc.

Grunge was just the next fad, and record companies were only too happy to jump on the bandwagon and exploit it. Grunge didn't kill off hair metal, it barely even competed against it. There was very little overlap, and you can look up any hair metal band and the story is the same. The record companies only wanted their grunge, so unless you wanted to conform to the latest craze, you were essentially rock-blocked. The few bands that did release albums during the '90s sounded nothing like their '80s selves, and weren't suited to writing that music, so they all split up. There was no war, just a changing of the guard.

Grunge wasn't some rebellious movement that killed off hair metal. It was just the latest trend in popular music, just like the hair metal that preceded it, successfully pushed onto a new generation of kids via MTV.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2015, 09:26:39 PM by BlobVanDam »
Only King could mis-spell a LETTER.
Yep. I think the only party in the MP/DT situation that hasn't moved on is DTF.

Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: All musicians unite! - The Musicians Chat Thread
« Reply #584 on: January 25, 2015, 01:58:08 PM »
Hair metal wasn't all about partying and screwing by any stretch either.
Come on, 90-95% of it was. Don't bullshit me, I lived through it.  Hell, I had Roxy Blue's Want Some? on cassette, baby.
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Offline 1neeto

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Re: All musicians unite! - The Musicians Chat Thread
« Reply #585 on: January 25, 2015, 03:24:29 PM »
I'm not glorifying nirvana in any way shape or form. I'm just stating the fact that they were very influential and changed everything in the early 90's. And their music however "inferior" it is, will live on unlike most of the hair metal from the 80's which will be forgotten sans a few songs. I personally don't like Nirvana all that much, I was more of a Soundgarden, AIC and Pearl Jam kind of guy. Hell, here's a pic of my phone's iPod list in between the M and N, notice there's no Nirvana there.


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Re: All musicians unite! - The Musicians Chat Thread
« Reply #586 on: January 25, 2015, 05:35:25 PM »
Q: Is the grunge side better?

A: Faster.  Easier to tap into negative emotion it is. 

But beware the grunge side.  Angst, complain, apathy; the grunge side of Music are they.  Easily they flow, quick to join you in lament.  If once you start down the grunge path, forever will it dominate you it will, as it did the Melvin's apprentice.

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Re: All musicians unite! - The Musicians Chat Thread
« Reply #587 on: January 25, 2015, 05:48:27 PM »
As far as the metal of the 80s?  It was essentially hard rock in 1980.  By 1989, you had Dream Theater, Slayer, Faith No More, Johnson/Vai/Satriani and NIN's Pretty Hate Machine.

Quite a bit of variety took place in the guitar centric world in that decade.  The hair bands were just the "crossover" artists.

Now apologize for Limp Bizkit, Hootie, Hanson, Creed and White Zombie.

Offline BlobVanDam

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Re: All musicians unite! - The Musicians Chat Thread
« Reply #588 on: January 25, 2015, 07:51:16 PM »
I'm not glorifying nirvana in any way shape or form. I'm just stating the fact that they were very influential and changed everything in the early 90's. And their music however "inferior" it is, will live on unlike most of the hair metal from the 80's which will be forgotten sans a few songs.

That's biased BS. A ton of it has already endured better than Nirvana, and will continue to endure as long as anything Nirvana ever did without a doubt.
Only King could mis-spell a LETTER.
Yep. I think the only party in the MP/DT situation that hasn't moved on is DTF.

Offline Shadow Ninja 2.0

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Re: All musicians unite! - The Musicians Chat Thread
« Reply #589 on: January 25, 2015, 07:57:53 PM »
I think both hair metal and grunge had a few really great bands whose influence will last, and then a bunch of copies who no one remembers now, kinda like most trends in music I guess.

Though I'd probably tend more towards grunge, myself. Still, I like some hair metal. And some 80s pop I like quite a bit also.

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Re: All musicians unite! - The Musicians Chat Thread
« Reply #590 on: January 25, 2015, 09:22:01 PM »
Just exactly what bands were influenced by Nirvana?  Mixing up Seattle and Nirvana?  Sonic Youth and Melvins came out before Nirvana.

Offline PuffyPat

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Re: All musicians unite! - The Musicians Chat Thread
« Reply #591 on: January 25, 2015, 09:26:26 PM »
It's not even about what bands they influenced. Because of their mainstream success, it opened up the industry for pretty much the entire alt-rock boom in the 90s.
prog sucks
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Re: All musicians unite! - The Musicians Chat Thread
« Reply #592 on: January 25, 2015, 11:18:23 PM »
It's not even about what bands they influenced. Because of their mainstream success, it opened up the industry for pretty much the entire alt-rock boom in the 90s.
Ok.  Now we are getting somewhere.  Poison didn't influence anybody. Hanoi Rocks / Motley Crue (look) and Van Halen (Everybody Want Some lyrics).  Bands like Poison, Bon Jovi and Def Leppard just opened up the flood gates for guitar distortion (as opposed to guitar overdrive).

 I specifically recall a friend telling me right before Metallica's One was out "You like Metallica?  I can kind of understand Def Leppard, but Metallica?  That's just noise."  He liked Paula Abdul, Information Society and Bobbie Brown (the stuff that was really at the top of the charts).  Of course when Metallica's Black album came out, he swore he was always into them.

BTW, they were into Nirvana as well.  Because it was Pop 40.


Offline sneakyblueberry

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Re: All musicians unite! - The Musicians Chat Thread
« Reply #593 on: January 26, 2015, 01:37:17 AM »
I think Orbert won this thread with the top post. 

Grunge definitely feels to me like a return to 'honest' music after the excess of the 80s. 

I'm not glorifying nirvana in any way shape or form. I'm just stating the fact that they were very influential and changed everything in the early 90's. And their music however "inferior" it is, will live on unlike most of the hair metal from the 80's which will be forgotten sans a few songs.

That's biased BS. A ton of it has already endured better than Nirvana, and will continue to endure as long as anything Nirvana ever did without a doubt.

I love how you call him out on his bias whilst clearly displaying your own :lol Both genres are bound to have an influence on lots of people, to say one is more influential than the other is like comparing apples and oranges.     

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Re: All musicians unite! - The Musicians Chat Thread
« Reply #594 on: January 26, 2015, 03:55:03 AM »
I'm not glorifying nirvana in any way shape or form. I'm just stating the fact that they were very influential and changed everything in the early 90's. And their music however "inferior" it is, will live on unlike most of the hair metal from the 80's which will be forgotten sans a few songs.

That's biased BS. A ton of it has already endured better than Nirvana, and will continue to endure as long as anything Nirvana ever did without a doubt.

This. I think Nirvana's influence is always grossly overstated. They might have had some influence but nowhere to the excess that people give them.