Author Topic: All musicians unite! - The Musicians Chat Thread  (Read 300629 times)

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Online hefdaddy42

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Re: All musicians unite! - The Musicians Chat Thread
« Reply #1575 on: February 08, 2017, 12:12:22 PM »
 :metal
Hef is right on all things. Except for when I disagree with him. In which case he's probably still right.

Offline Sir GuitarCozmo

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Re: All musicians unite! - The Musicians Chat Thread
« Reply #1576 on: February 23, 2017, 08:47:50 AM »
Pretty sure that this is going to happen:

https://www.amazon.com/Digitech-DROP-Compact-Polyphonic-Pitch-Shifter/dp/B00LXMN740/

The Digitech Drop. Auto-detuner. I can, from FB recommendations, have a whole set of standard tuned songs, kick this on to play a Kiss song (down 1/2 step), off for more standard songs, on to play a Motley Crue song (down 1 step), then back off for more standard songs and no changing guitars or retuning them. Sofa king stoked.

Offline TheLordOfTheStrings

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Re: All musicians unite! - The Musicians Chat Thread
« Reply #1577 on: February 24, 2017, 11:24:27 AM »
So one of my bands is recording our first full length album (we're a concept band), and our buddy is putting together a little documentary on the making of the album. It'll also go over how the band got started, what the concept is about, the recording process, etc. Is that something you guys would be interested in checking out?
Check out my various music projects - I’ve got concept albums, singer/songwriter, rock, metal, prog, and more coming soon:

https://linktr.ee/STARCOMMANDStudios

Offline Orbert

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Re: All musicians unite! - The Musicians Chat Thread
« Reply #1578 on: February 24, 2017, 01:03:43 PM »
Sure, post the links here when you have them.

Offline Sir GuitarCozmo

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Re: All musicians unite! - The Musicians Chat Thread
« Reply #1579 on: February 25, 2017, 07:13:40 PM »
Oh. Damn. Tonight's jam was fecking DYNAMITE! Unbelievable.

Offline Orbert

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Re: All musicians unite! - The Musicians Chat Thread
« Reply #1580 on: February 25, 2017, 07:52:09 PM »
Sweet!  Nothing like good jamming, jamming good.

Offline Sir GuitarCozmo

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Re: All musicians unite! - The Musicians Chat Thread
« Reply #1581 on: February 27, 2017, 06:35:15 AM »
Damn.  So freakin' cool.  I brought he bass player on board, as he and I have played together since '06.  But for being the first time that all of us have been in the same room together, as well as being the first time he or I have met the singer OR drummer, Easily half of the songs could be ready to play out already.  Unreal.  Another practice or two and we'll be ready to do some openers, easily.  I'm pitching the idea of bringing a rhythm guitarist on board.  We'll see what happens, but I feel like it would definitely be beneficial.  When you solo on songs that have a heavy rhythm guitar going on, it feels like the bottom drops out.  It appears that all four of us walked away from Saturday night feeling really good.

Online hefdaddy42

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Re: All musicians unite! - The Musicians Chat Thread
« Reply #1582 on: February 28, 2017, 08:03:54 AM »
So, we moved away from Mount Airy, and our old church and praise band, in July 2016.

My wife and I haven't really done any music since then.

This past Sunday, we got to travel back and play with the guys again.  Man, that so awesome.
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Offline Orbert

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Re: All musicians unite! - The Musicians Chat Thread
« Reply #1583 on: February 28, 2017, 10:05:37 AM »
Reunion gig!  Lots of catching up and stuff, people telling you how awesome you are and how much they miss you, etc.  Good times.  :tup

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Re: All musicians unite! - The Musicians Chat Thread
« Reply #1584 on: February 28, 2017, 10:11:24 AM »
That's always a good time.  Once we quit doing the Kiss thing, the times we'd get together for one-offs in the later years were always a big deal.

The singer and drummer have sent me a list of new songs they've picked out.  I'm getting a list together from me and the bass player to send back to them.  We're going to have a lot of tunes to choose from, methinks.  Their list:

Paradise City – Guns n Roses
Used to Love Her – Guns N Roses
Night Train – Guns N Roses
Symphony of Destruction – Megadeth
Bad Girlfriend – Theory of a Dead Man
Slither – Velvet Revolver
It's Not Love – Dokken
Comin Home – Cinderella
18 n Life – Skid Row
Looks That Kill – Motley Crue
House of Pain – Faster Pussycat
Shoot to Thrill – ACDC
Down on Me – Jackyl
Hysteria – Def Leppard
Down Boys – Warrant

I've got a few ideas of things I want to suggest.  Some other Warrant, LA Guns, Great White, Ozzy, Lynch Mob.  Also, I'm gonna float the idea of doing Three Little Pigs as a closer.  People would lose their shit.

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Re: All musicians unite! - The Musicians Chat Thread
« Reply #1585 on: February 28, 2017, 03:24:34 PM »
You should do

Rob the Cradle - Roxy Blue
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Re: All musicians unite! - The Musicians Chat Thread
« Reply #1586 on: February 28, 2017, 03:54:13 PM »
I can dig that shit.

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Re: All musicians unite! - The Musicians Chat Thread
« Reply #1587 on: March 01, 2017, 08:33:07 AM »
I always liked "Let Me Be The One" by Tattoo Rodeo also, but man, they really died off the face of the earth.
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Re: All musicians unite! - The Musicians Chat Thread
« Reply #1588 on: March 02, 2017, 06:49:55 AM »
Say, Orbert.  Are you familiar with the David Crowder Band?  I figured you might be, given your proclivity to do church music from time to time.

They disbanded in 2012, and I recently revisited their final album together, titled Give Us Rest; or (A Requiem Mass in C [the Happiest of All Keys]).  For some reason, I thought of you.  As their swan song, they definitely went all out.  It is a double album, using lots of different genres of music (but it all sounds like David Crowder Band), laid out like a really long order of worship.  Here is the track listing for more context.

Disc One:

The Entrance (or, the introit)
1.   "Requiem Aeternam Dona Eis, Domine"   0:54
2.   "Oh Great God, Give Us Rest"   3:27
3.   "Lux Aeternam Shine"   0:53
4.   "Come Find Me"   4:54

The Plea (or, the kyrie)
5.   "God Have Mercy (Kyrie Eleison)"   5:16
6.   "Why Me?"  2:15
7.   "Fall On Your Knees"   3:59

The Plight (or, the gradual and the tract)
8.   "A Burial"     1:08
9.   "Let Me Feel You Shine"   4:20
10.   "Reprise #1"   1:11
11.   "Blessedness of Everlasting Light"   4:19
12.   "The Sound of Light"  1:15
13.   "Interlude"   0:52

The Sequence (or, the dies irae)
14.   "Sequence 1"   2:29
15.   "Sequence 2"   2:16
16.   "Sequence 3"   2:19
17.   "Sequence 4"   3:27
18.   "Sequence 5"   3:01
19.   "Sequence 6"   1:23
20.   "Sequence 7"   1:40

Disc Two:

The Invocation (or, the offertory and the sanctus)
1.   "Reprise #2"   1:16
2.   "Oh My God"   2:45
3.   "I Am a Seed"   2:48
4.   "After All (Holy)"   4:36
5.   "The Great Amen"   1:18

The Consummation and The Memory (or, the agnus dei, the communion, and the pie jesu)
6.   "There Is a Sound"   5:45
7.   "Oh, Great Love of God"    4:01
8.   "Our Communion"   3:56

The Absolution (or, the libere me and the paridisum)
9.   "Sometimes"   4:40
10.   "A Return"   2:19
11.   "Oh, My God I’m Coming Home"   2:43
12.   "Leaning On the Everlasting Arms /'Tis So Sweet to Trust in Jesus"  4:45
13.   "Jesus, Lead Me to Your Healing Waters"    4:15
14.   "Because He Lives"   4:21

Somewhat like Jackson Browne's Running On Empty album, some of the tracks were recorded on the road, either during performance or in green rooms/tour buses, while a lot of other tracks were studio tracks.

My favorite part is the Sequence, which is largely instrumental, and bits even sound proggish.

Altogether, it is a fantastic piece.  My ideal way to listen to it would be alone, in a room by myself, listening to all of it in one shot; I have found it to be a powerful personal worship tool that way.  But it can certainly also be listened to piece by piece, or like a normal album.

At any rate, wanted to throw it out there, as I thought you could appreciate it.
Hef is right on all things. Except for when I disagree with him. In which case he's probably still right.

Offline Orbert

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Re: All musicians unite! - The Musicians Chat Thread
« Reply #1589 on: March 02, 2017, 07:06:24 AM »
Thanks!  Yeah, we did a few David Crowder tunes when I was doing the Christian Rock thing, and I always liked them because the keyboard parts were fun and often on the unusual side.  It always seemed like that band had a bit more going on than your average CCM band, and I remember downloading one of their albums once, and being a bit disappointed that it was mostly "regular" CCM.  Pretty good stuff, not bad by any means, but not quite the semi-prog I was thinking I might find on maybe the deeper tracks.

This, however, looks very interesting.

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Re: All musicians unite! - The Musicians Chat Thread
« Reply #1590 on: March 02, 2017, 08:06:28 AM »
It's really immersive.  Don't get me wrong, it's not Neal Morse, but he tends to go a little more deep and intimate in his lyrics and a little outside the box in his instrumentation.  I consider it "thinking man's modern worship music".
Hef is right on all things. Except for when I disagree with him. In which case he's probably still right.

Offline Orbert

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Re: All musicians unite! - The Musicians Chat Thread
« Reply #1591 on: March 02, 2017, 11:54:15 AM »
Good enough for me!

Offline FreezingPoint

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Re: All musicians unite! - The Musicians Chat Thread
« Reply #1592 on: March 08, 2017, 02:18:34 PM »
So I recently recorded a band. They are planning on releasing a three song demo EP, using it to give to venues and promoters in order to book shows and generate interest in the band.

Surprisingly enough (or perhaps not) I came across some moral issues after doing the session. Let me give you the rundown of the situation.

They are a young band, college aged or not much older, not possessing a lot of great gear. The plus? It is a paying job for me. However, I know they have limited time and budget. They wanted to do one 10 hour session, and I planned on charging by the hour so as to cut down on the nonsense and downtime.

They did not have too much studio experience with playing to a click, etc. That, combined with the fixed length of the session meant that we couldn’t necessarily go back and fix all the mistakes. There are all sorts of timing issues, tuning issues, etc. I get it - they only have a limited budget and limited time.

Now it is time for me to mix. Here is where the issue comes up. I can fix 95% of the problems in editing. I can pitch correct the vocals, I can line up the guitars, bass and drums so they aren’t all over the place, rushing and speeding up. The question is…should I?

Is it a true representation of the band? Or is it a band fixed with studio magic? Is it being honest as to their sound or not? On one hand, they gave me a fair amount of latitude in terms of their sound. On the other hand, they didn’t specifically tell me to do whatever I want. No doubt there have been different ways of doing it and philosophies throughout the years, even through the biggest bands.

The one other thing I have to consider is this: even if the band is bad, my name is on the project too in some capacity. Do I really want to release a recording that sounds bad because of bad decisions made by the band, when I can easily correct those and release a quality project?

Let me know your thoughts, DTF musicians! I can give more details if necessary, but I thought it was an interesting topic for discussion.
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Offline Orbert

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Re: All musicians unite! - The Musicians Chat Thread
« Reply #1593 on: March 08, 2017, 03:26:48 PM »
This is a tough one.  I'm currently in a band that's trying to drum up some work, and I know that a good professional demo would help a lot.  I would tell the guy to do whatever he can to make us sound good/better.  On the other hand, I do feel that that's dishonest.  Our website has stuff that was recorded live at previous gigs.  It's live, warts and all, although obviously we picked tracks with as few warts as possible.  I hate the very concept of tweaking a live recording, and I don't care that "all bands do it" because not all bands do, and it's still dishonest.  This is not what we sound like.  But with studio recordings, the rules are different.

They paid you for your studio time, but did that include any number of hours spent "fixing" the recording?  As something of a perfectionist myself, I understand your wanting to fix things up, make everything sound as good as possible.  But I'm also a mercenary.  If they're not paying me to do all that, I probably won't.  Sure, your name is on the recording, but anyone who pays attention to that will also know that that only applies to the quality of the recording itself.  It's not your fault if you produced a high-quality recording of a mediocre band.

I'd say go back to them and explain the situation.  You can fix things, but that's more work for you.  You're not doing this out of charity; they will understand the need for you to be paid for your time.  Or maybe offer to do "basic" tweaks but any "advanced" stuff will cost extra, something like that.

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Re: All musicians unite! - The Musicians Chat Thread
« Reply #1594 on: March 09, 2017, 08:10:09 AM »
I would say fix it.  The CD should be the best representation of what they are capable of.  If nothing else, it will give them something they have to learn to live up to.
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Offline Sir GuitarCozmo

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Re: All musicians unite! - The Musicians Chat Thread
« Reply #1595 on: March 09, 2017, 08:21:50 AM »
I kinda agree, but at the same time, I'd feel a little dirty about it.  I have high standards for what passes as a good band, on the local circuit.  I'm not even gonna pretend not to.  I would feel bad passing a band with tuning and timing issues off as something they clearly are not.  Those are some of the single most basic things a band should be capable of getting right, ESPECIALLY when going to a studio to record.  So they pass this thing around to clubs in order to get in, go in, suck, and the club looks to see who it was that produced the demo for them.

Although club owners are usually slimeballs anyway, so I wouldn't give them much credit for thinking to see who passed this band off as being good.

Also, I get that they're young and don't have a lot of bucks to get more time in the studio, but them's the breaks.  You want a good demo?  Be good.  Or bust your ass to do side jobs or anything under the sun to get the money for the studio time to make it good.  That's how most every band that's worth a shit did it.

Does anyone feel like there might be value in (if you make the corrections for them) to sit them down and tell them about the questionable things you corrected and that these are the things they should probably focus on going forward, or no?  I mean certainly constructive criticism from someone in the know IS valuable, so hopefully they'd take it as such and be appreciative of the feedback.

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Re: All musicians unite! - The Musicians Chat Thread
« Reply #1596 on: March 09, 2017, 09:05:41 AM »
Does anyone feel like there might be value in (if you make the corrections for them) to sit them down and tell them about the questionable things you corrected and that these are the things they should probably focus on going forward, or no?  I mean certainly constructive criticism from someone in the know IS valuable, so hopefully they'd take it as such and be appreciative of the feedback.
Absolutely.
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Offline Orbert

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Re: All musicians unite! - The Musicians Chat Thread
« Reply #1597 on: March 09, 2017, 10:26:11 AM »
I would say fix it.  The CD should be the best representation of what they are capable of.

Yeah but see that's the problem.  They are not capable of playing that well.  They are not capable of consistently playing in tune and getting their timing and tempos correct, and as Cozmo pointed out, those are basic things that any decent band should be able to do.  Representing them as a band that can actually do that, when in fact they can't, is dishonest.

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Re: All musicians unite! - The Musicians Chat Thread
« Reply #1598 on: March 09, 2017, 10:32:53 AM »
Exactly my dilemma.  You want to help them out, but by misrepresenting them, you're like the parent who always argues with the teacher when their kids' grade slip.  You are doing them no favors by not allowing them to fail due to their own shortcomings, no matter how much in your heart you want them to succeed.

Offline FreezingPoint

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Re: All musicians unite! - The Musicians Chat Thread
« Reply #1599 on: March 09, 2017, 10:37:12 AM »
Thanks for all the replies.

They paid you for your studio time, but did that include any number of hours spent "fixing" the recording?  As something of a perfectionist myself, I understand your wanting to fix things up, make everything sound as good as possible.  But I'm also a mercenary.  If they're not paying me to do all that, I probably won't.  Sure, your name is on the recording, but anyone who pays attention to that will also know that that only applies to the quality of the recording itself.  It's not your fault if you produced a high-quality recording of a mediocre band.

I'd say go back to them and explain the situation.  You can fix things, but that's more work for you.  You're not doing this out of charity; they will understand the need for you to be paid for your time.  Or maybe offer to do "basic" tweaks but any "advanced" stuff will cost extra, something like that.

In response to Orbert, I am getting paid for this post-studio work, but a flat rate per song. Someone suggested to me that I should have charged flat rate for the studio time and hourly for the post/mixing work. That would have been more beneficial I think (to me) and might encourage them to be better going into the studio.

I kinda agree, but at the same time, I'd feel a little dirty about it.  I have high standards for what passes as a good band, on the local circuit.  I'm not even gonna pretend not to.  I would feel bad passing a band with tuning and timing issues off as something they clearly are not.  Those are some of the single most basic things a band should be capable of getting right, ESPECIALLY when going to a studio to record.  So they pass this thing around to clubs in order to get in, go in, suck, and the club looks to see who it was that produced the demo for them.

Although club owners are usually slimeballs anyway, so I wouldn't give them much credit for thinking to see who passed this band off as being good.

Also, I get that they're young and don't have a lot of bucks to get more time in the studio, but them's the breaks.  You want a good demo?  Be good.  Or bust your ass to do side jobs or anything under the sun to get the money for the studio time to make it good.  That's how most every band that's worth a shit did it.

Does anyone feel like there might be value in (if you make the corrections for them) to sit them down and tell them about the questionable things you corrected and that these are the things they should probably focus on going forward, or no?  I mean certainly constructive criticism from someone in the know IS valuable, so hopefully they'd take it as such and be appreciative of the feedback.

One of the frustrating things about it is that I told them to be prepared. I suggested to them practicing with a click a few times, just to get a feel for it. I told them the process of how I was going to record ahead of time to be prepared. I told them to be super solid on all these songs so we could be efficient and work right through it. I guess they just might have a different concept of what makes a tight group vs. how it actually comes across on the recording.

I feel that I shouldn't, for instance, tell them to get their guitars set up and ready for the studio session. Coming into the session with old strings and intonation that is way off - no excuse. Could I set it up for them? Yes, I do all my own guitars, but I am being paid to record, not to be guitar tech. That will cost extra.

I agree about the money. You want to sound the best you can? You will have to 1. Practice to get there, 2. Make sure it happens in the studio and have the time for it. Without going into too much social commentary, if they didn't spend so much on cigarettes and other substances, they might have more money for more studio time and better gear. But those are personal choices and decisions for them to make themselves haha.

Yes, I have decided I am going to put some notes together at the end and tell them what needed to be done and what they need to work on. There is a difference between having a good jam on a Friday night and getting together to practice for your studio session. One thing that really came across in the studio sessions was being tentative and without as much feeling as they should have, despite my best efforts during the session. Knowing your parts and not making them up on the spot would help too (I'm looking at you Lead Guitar Player).
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Offline FreezingPoint

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Re: All musicians unite! - The Musicians Chat Thread
« Reply #1600 on: March 09, 2017, 10:44:09 AM »
Something we have been talking about here is accurately representing the band. Let's say that we did have all the time in the world to get it right. Finally, on the 500th take, the singer gets it dead on, no correction needed. Is it really an accurate representation of the band if they can only play it right 1/500th of the time?

However, doing take after take to get it right is not an uncommon practice in the studio at all from bands big to small.
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Offline Sir GuitarCozmo

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Re: All musicians unite! - The Musicians Chat Thread
« Reply #1601 on: March 09, 2017, 10:45:50 AM »
I get the point there and is it an accurate representation?  1/500th of something can't really well be considered 1 of something, no, but in the end, it is them, without auto-tune and computer trickery and correction.  And if nothing else, they're now a LOT better at playing it, because you've forced them to go over it so many times.  They obviously need the practice.

Offline FreezingPoint

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Re: All musicians unite! - The Musicians Chat Thread
« Reply #1602 on: March 09, 2017, 10:52:35 AM »
I get the point there and is it an accurate representation?  1/500th of something can't really well be considered 1 of something, no, but in the end, it is them, without auto-tune and computer trickery and correction.  And if nothing else, they're now a LOT better at playing it, because you've forced them to go over it so many times.  They obviously need the practice.

Can't argue with that whatsoever.

From different sessions I have had, it is night and day between the people who have practiced and those who haven't. Those who practice are the best sessions, as one would imagine. In and out (no not the Van Halen song), less frustration, less time, more fun, more opportunity to try more ideas and work on the feeling, the emotion and the soul of the song.
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Offline Sir GuitarCozmo

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Re: All musicians unite! - The Musicians Chat Thread
« Reply #1603 on: March 09, 2017, 10:58:14 AM »
I remember my old band did like a 5-6 song demo to hand out to clubs.  1 original and the rest covers.  We'd played these songs a bazillion times.  We knocked the whole thing out in probably 5-6 hours.  This was a friend of ours who basically had a studio in his basement and used Cool Edit Pro to put it all together and it actually sounded pretty decent.

Offline FreezingPoint

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Re: All musicians unite! - The Musicians Chat Thread
« Reply #1604 on: March 09, 2017, 11:05:23 AM »
That's the way to do it, and a really good pace for 5-6 songs. When you have a band who is practiced, that is what you get. A good solid band will shine through in most recordings, from cell phone to studio. Within reason of course.
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Offline Sir GuitarCozmo

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Re: All musicians unite! - The Musicians Chat Thread
« Reply #1605 on: March 09, 2017, 11:07:28 AM »
And the good thing was that since the guy was a friend of ours, he burned me a DVD of all of the individual tracks he used for the finished product, so if I wanted to tweak something or re-record a guitar part myself, I could.  Very cool.

Offline Orbert

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Re: All musicians unite! - The Musicians Chat Thread
« Reply #1606 on: March 09, 2017, 11:07:55 AM »
That's how this session should have gone; it's how any session should go.  Be prepared, know your tunes, have everything as ready as possible, including stupid things like not getting there and then spending 10 minutes putting new strings on or something.  That's shit that should be taken care of ahead of time, not while the clock's running and you're paying by the hour.

But as FreezingPoint has pointed out, these guys are young and naive, and have probably never done a "real" recording before.  I'm sure it was a learning process for them, big time.  At least I'd hope it was.

Offline FreezingPoint

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Re: All musicians unite! - The Musicians Chat Thread
« Reply #1607 on: March 09, 2017, 12:38:59 PM »
Absolutely.

I think in the future I also have to be more clear. Am I being hired to be the producer, or be the engineer? Because if it is the latter, I will just sit there and push the button when you want me to.

I certainly hope they have learned a lot. In any case, I plan on laying it down to them after I am all through, just in case enough didn't sink in during the session.
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Online hefdaddy42

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Re: All musicians unite! - The Musicians Chat Thread
« Reply #1608 on: March 09, 2017, 01:04:53 PM »
That's the way to do it, and a really good pace for 5-6 songs. When you have a band who is practiced, that is what you get. A good solid band will shine through in most recordings, from cell phone to studio. Within reason of course.
I was in a band at my church, and about 10 years ago we did a four song demo.  We came in and did the instrumental tracks complete in about 2 hours or so - precisely because we had our shit together and knew our parts.  Which is not to say there was no improv - we just knew when and what to improv, no flying by the seat of our pants.

We did all the vocals (leads and harmonies) a separate night, but again about 2 hours or so total.

It was a really neat experience.  I had never played to a click before, but we prepped for it in rehearsals for, like, a month before that.
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Offline FreezingPoint

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Re: All musicians unite! - The Musicians Chat Thread
« Reply #1609 on: March 09, 2017, 01:41:23 PM »
That's awesome.

If I may ask, what do church bands usually do with demo recordings? I am a little outside the realm of the worship music world, so I don't know too much about it.
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