Author Topic: The November Rain drum fills (Read 5224 times)

KevShmev · « **on:** August 06, 2012, 11:17:25 PM »

In case anyone didn't see the twitter "war" behind Mike Portnoy and GNR drummer Matt Sorum over the Guns N' Roses song November Rain, it went like this:

Portnoy: "November Rain is an all-time classic song...but why on Earth did Matt Sorum play the SAME EXACT fill every 4 bars? (23 times to be exact!)"
Sorum: "That fill was Axls idea As a musical phrase that carried on through the trilogy , Don't Cry and Estranged. Those albums UYI 1 n 2 Have sold 20 million combined."
Sorum: "Remember kids drumming isn't all about fancy drum fills and splash cymbals ask Charlie Watts, Ringo and Phil Rudd."
Portnoy: "Agree 1000%!! Ringo is one of my greatest heroes!! No disrespect meant bro...just making an observation of that song. Peace! : )"

Did anyone else never even realize that those drum fills were the same over and over until now?

Adami · « **Reply #1 on:** August 06, 2012, 11:20:20 PM »

I noticed he did them over and over in November Rain, but not the other two songs.

Not that I care. I mean, it's GnR, I don't listen for the drumming.

black_biff_stadler · « **Reply #2 on:** August 06, 2012, 11:21:46 PM »

I have no problem with it. MANY top 40 rock songs over the years have consisted of guitar and/or bass parts that have little-to-no variation whatsoever. Just cuz drums are generally more varied by default is no reason to scoff at one isolated piece.

Ben_Jamin · « **Reply #3 on:** August 06, 2012, 11:22:00 PM »

he probably knew, just now said what he was thinking all this time and Sorum replied why.

SystematicThought · « **Reply #4 on:** August 06, 2012, 11:23:04 PM »

Does Sorum know MP? He sounded kind of irritated in a way showing he doesn't know MP personally.

Mosh · « **Reply #5 on:** August 06, 2012, 11:34:03 PM »

Never noticed before, because this:

Quote from: Adami on August 06, 2012, 11:20:20 PM

Not that I care. I mean, it's GnR, I don't listen for the drumming.

But now I can't unhear it.

LieLowTheWantedMan · « **Reply #6 on:** August 07, 2012, 01:34:49 AM »

He's acting as if Rudd, Ringo, and Watts are like world-class drummers.

Also, "look at us we sell albums lolololo". This guy kinda seems like a jackass to me.

BlobVanDam · « **Reply #7 on:** August 07, 2012, 01:40:24 AM »

That counts as a "war"?

Anyway, I'd noticed it in November Rain, although I didn't realize it was repeated that often. It never really stood out though, since it's a ballad, so I don't expect over the top drums. I don't listen to Don't Cry and Estranged, so I didn't know it was intentionally reused there.

Pols Voice · « **Reply #8 on:** August 07, 2012, 03:20:19 AM »

Quote from: LieLowTheWantedMan on August 07, 2012, 01:34:49 AM

He's acting as if Rudd, Ringo, and Watts are like world-class drummers.

I've always liked Ringo's style.

nikatapi · « **Reply #9 on:** August 07, 2012, 03:56:50 AM »

"just making an observation of that song. Peace!"

Lol. If another drummer said something about MP doing the same snare-kick fills in almost every song he would probably feel disrespected, i guess he didn't expect an answer to his tweet

TAC · « **Reply #10 on:** August 07, 2012, 06:57:41 AM »

Matt Sorum played like a beast on those two albums.

I didn't realize those three songs formed a trilogy. I generally skip November Rain and Don't cry anyway.

chrisbDTM · « **Reply #11 on:** August 07, 2012, 07:18:44 AM »

he was real quick to point out how much the album sold. and yes playing the same fill 23 times is stupid

KevShmev · « **Reply #12 on:** August 07, 2012, 08:53:00 AM »

Quote from: nikatapi on August 07, 2012, 03:56:50 AM

"just making an observation of that song. Peace!"

Lol. If another drummer said something about MP doing the same snare-kick fills in almost every song he would probably feel disrespected, i guess he didn't expect an answer to his tweet

Pretty much, all-around.

Quote from: chrisbDTM on August 07, 2012, 07:18:44 AM

he was real quick to point out how much the album sold. and yes playing the same fill 23 times is stupid

I don't think so in this case. Don't get me wrong, I only like a handful of GNR songs, and think Rose is the biggest asshole in rock history (can anyone really argue otherwise?), but that fill is like a riff that is played over and over; the repetitiveness works while everything else around builds. It's like the one constant that the rest of the song builds around.

bosk1 · « **Reply #13 on:** August 07, 2012, 09:02:28 AM »

Quote from: KevShmev on August 07, 2012, 08:53:00 AM

Quote from: chrisbDTM on August 07, 2012, 07:18:44 AM
he was real quick to point out how much the album sold. and yes playing the same fill 23 times is stupid

I don't think so in this case. Don't get me wrong, I only like a handful of GNR songs, and think Rose is the biggest asshole in rock history (can anyone really argue otherwise?), but that fill is like a riff that is played over and over; the repetitiveness works while everything else around builds. It's like the one constant that the rest of the song builds around.

Yeah...I pretty much agree. HOWEVER, on the other side of the argument, I have to say this: Now that I know it's repeated that often and know the reason, I can defintely say "yeah, I see what Axl was going for, and it pretty much works now that you mention it." But the problem is, if you have to put that much thought into figuring out why something in a song should work, it probably doesn't work as well as it was intended to.

rumborak · « **Reply #14 on:** August 07, 2012, 09:21:47 AM »

Playing it "exactly the same" isn't true. It's modified a lot of times, either truncated, or the timing is changed.
Also, damn, glass house, complaining about reusing drum fills.

rumborak

Index · « **Reply #15 on:** August 07, 2012, 09:34:46 AM »

Quote from: SystematicThought on August 06, 2012, 11:23:04 PM

Does Sorum know MP? He sounded kind of irritated in a way showing he doesn't know MP personally.

I think he knows of him, maybe not personally.

Quote

Sorum: "Remember kids drumming isn't all about fancy drum fills and splash cymbals ask Charlie Watts, Ringo and Phil Rudd."

In reference to MP's playing style + kit.

dbrooks22 · « **Reply #16 on:** August 07, 2012, 10:12:35 AM »

As a drummer, i remember being very annoyed when that song was on the radio and the fill was repeated over and over. I don't think Sorum had much say though. He was a hired hand.

dbrooks22 · « **Reply #17 on:** August 07, 2012, 10:14:38 AM »

Speaking of Sorum/GNR, does anyone remember, during the G'N'R drummer replacement process, hearing rumors that Axl had approached Neil Peart?

Adami · « **Reply #18 on:** August 07, 2012, 10:31:27 AM »

Quote from: dbrooks22 on August 07, 2012, 10:14:38 AM

Speaking of Sorum/GNR, does anyone remember, during the G'N'R drummer replacement process, hearing rumors that Axl had approached Neil Peart?

I would have loved to have seen this. If for no other reason than to actually see Neil laughing hysterically in Axl's face.

dbrooks22 · « **Reply #19 on:** August 07, 2012, 10:33:51 AM »

I think it was probably more like a polite "No, thank you," with the bubble over Peart's head reading "I am no one's hired bitch."

Adami · « **Reply #20 on:** August 07, 2012, 10:36:44 AM »

Nah I'd rather imagine it my way.

MrBoom_shack-a-lack · « **Reply #21 on:** August 07, 2012, 11:33:39 AM »

Du-baff duuu-dudu-duuu Bishhhhhhh

pain of occupation · « **Reply #22 on:** August 07, 2012, 11:59:00 AM »

ive heard portnoy bring this up a long time ago...calling it the "beating a dead horse fill"

in the november rain making of video, they talk about the drum fills...sorum mentions a specific drummer that axl told him to emulate (so to speak). i cant recall who it was, however.

DT2003 · « **Reply #23 on:** August 07, 2012, 12:09:33 PM »

Not sure if Nigel Olson is who you are talking about but this is part of the Blabbermouth article regarding this subject:

In a 2009 interview with Music Radar, Sorum spoke in more detail about his drumming approach on "November Rain", explaining, "The track I get the most amount of grief for, from drummers, is 'November Rain'. The reason I did that tom fill so many times is I felt it was a musical part. A lot of drummers were like, 'Why'd you play the same fill so much?!'

"Me and Axl were sitting in the studio late one night, having a couple of drinks and listening to Elton John, a song called 'Don't Let The Sun Go Down On Me'.

"Axl goes, 'Do you hear that?' I'm like, 'Yeah, I love Nigel Olson, man'. He says, 'Do that on the song we're going to record tomorrow!' We'd rehearsed it but I didn't have all the fills and stuff, it was just a groove. In the end of 'November Rain', I get into that whole marching band trip."

bosk1 · « **Reply #24 on:** August 07, 2012, 12:19:42 PM »

Here's kind of my "final take" on the issue: We know from Sorum performance elsewhere that he has the chops to play more than a basic tom fill. And we know from his current statements that they were intentionally going for a particular thing by repeating slight variations of the very same, simple fill throughout the song. IMO, the results are a mixed bag. But, hey, when you try to make a particular artistic statement in a song, sometimes it works; sometimes it doesn't. That's life. This mostly worked, but also garnered a lot of criticism. Them's the breaks.

rumborak · « **Reply #25 on:** August 07, 2012, 01:40:28 PM »

The thing that rather bugs me here is the distortion of the facts to make the accusation. Sorum doesn't play it every 4 bars, and he doesn't play it exactly the same way all the time.
Besides, the beauty of the song is the rather spartan instrumentation anyway. Judging from MP's drumming on songs that call for restraint, I would say Sorum served the song better than MP mostly likely would have, given the same opportunity.

rumborak

pain of occupation · « **Reply #26 on:** August 07, 2012, 01:42:56 PM »

Quote from: rumborak on August 07, 2012, 01:40:28 PM

Sorum doesn't play it every 4 bars, and he doesn't play it exactly the same way all the time.
rumborak

thats what i was thinking

bosk1 · « **Reply #27 on:** August 07, 2012, 01:57:02 PM »

Quote from: rumborak on August 07, 2012, 01:40:28 PM

Sorum doesn't play it every 4 bars

I know. Use of superlatives is always wrong.

dbrooks22 · « **Reply #28 on:** August 07, 2012, 02:30:39 PM »

Quote from: bosk1 on August 07, 2012, 01:57:02 PM

I know. Use of superlatives is always wrong.

took me a few mins

hefdaddy42 · « **Reply #29 on:** August 07, 2012, 07:52:35 PM »

Quote from: bosk1 on August 07, 2012, 01:57:02 PM

Quote from: rumborak on August 07, 2012, 01:40:28 PM
Sorum doesn't play it every 4 bars

I know. Use of superlatives is always wrong.

I love you.

Adami · « **Reply #30 on:** August 07, 2012, 08:11:18 PM »

Quote from: bosk1 on August 07, 2012, 01:57:02 PM

Quote from: rumborak on August 07, 2012, 01:40:28 PM
Sorum doesn't play it every 4 bars

I know. Use of superlatives is always wrong.

I think you mean it's som.............oh you!

ytserush · « **Reply #31 on:** August 20, 2012, 08:37:15 PM »

My favorite song that Matt Sorum plays on is the "Pick Up The Pieces" cover. He kicks ass on that.

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Author Topic: The November Rain drum fills (Read 5224 times)