Author Topic: 2012 Election Thread  (Read 80469 times)

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Offline senecadawg2

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Re: 2012 Election Thread
« Reply #175 on: August 14, 2012, 11:01:59 PM »
I have to agree with Rumborak in that Obama seems much more easygoing and just plain old likable. The question now is, how important of an factor is that? As others have mentioned, it certainly is important to have a charismatic leader who can relate to any number of people on any number of levels. However, I still believe that too much stake is put into the nominees' personality, rather than their policy (unfortunately). Regardless, at the end of the day, whichever way you choose to slice it, I still believe that Obama is the better candidate.
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Offline Orthogonal

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Re: 2012 Election Thread
« Reply #176 on: August 14, 2012, 11:23:19 PM »
As notable as "likability" and "charisma" are, the only thing that matters is their policy. When it comes to that, Obama and Romney are two pea's in a pod. (On anything that really matters).

If you are happy with Obama, I can't imagine there is too much not to like in Romney. If you don't like one, you're stuck with the same for another 4 years.

Romney Obama the same?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=IWDJEc92d38

Offline Scheavo

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Re: 2012 Election Thread
« Reply #177 on: August 15, 2012, 01:04:51 AM »
I'll still never get why people vote for the executive as if he's a legislator. If there's anything that's going to turn me off from the idea of a democracy, it's the simple fact that people, and rather intelligent people, don't seem to understand how our government is set up to work, in the most basic ways. I don't get how anyone can look at the last 3.5 years, and think that the President controls the legislative process, or that his agenda matters too much. The President can only propose policies, he can propose a budget, he can propose programs - but it takes the legislature to do anything, and the legislature always has the option of doing whateverthefuck it wants to. The biggest weapon the President has is the veto - and that can be overridden.

Here's how the Constitution describes the Presidents job:

Quote
Section 2
The President shall be commander in chief of the Army and Navy of the United States, and of the militia of the several states, when called into the actual service of the United States; he may require the opinion, in writing, of the principal officer in each of the executive departments, upon any subject relating to the duties of their respective offices, and he shall have power to grant reprieves and pardons for offenses against the United States, except in cases of impeachment.

He shall have power, by and with the advice and consent of the Senate, to make treaties, provided two thirds of the Senators present concur; and he shall nominate, and by and with the advice and consent of the Senate, shall appoint ambassadors, other public ministers and consuls, judges of the Supreme Court, and all other officers of the United States, whose appointments are not herein otherwise provided for, and which shall be established by law: but the Congress may by law vest the appointment of such inferior officers, as they think proper, in the President alone, in the courts of law, or in the heads of departments.

The President shall have power to fill up all vacancies that may happen during the recess of the Senate, by granting commissions which shall expire at the end of their next session.

Section 3.


He shall from time to time give to the Congress information of the state of the union, and recommend to their consideration such measures as he shall judge necessary and expedient; he may, on extraordinary occasions, convene both Houses, or either of them, and in case of disagreement between them, with respect to the time of adjournment, he may adjourn them to such time as he shall think proper; he shall receive ambassadors and other public ministers; he shall take care that the laws be faithfully executed, and shall commission all the officers of the United States.

The only thing missing is his power of veto. The Presidents role is largely diplomatic, Constitutionally speaking. He administers over the army (foreign relations), he negotiates treaties (foreign relations), he appoints ambassadors (foreign relations). The rest of his powers basically consist in nominating judges and governmental officials necessary to execute the law. DUe more to his position than anything, he's should also recommend idea's and programs, but that's supposed to be a rather small role. Read the Constitutional Debates, and absolutely no one discusses the President as if he's supposed to steer the control politically and determine all the policies.



Offline wolfandwolfandwolf

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Re: 2012 Election Thread
« Reply #178 on: August 15, 2012, 07:08:29 AM »
Wow, you should really stop the condescension, or at least add something to the conversation.
Loling pretty hard at this.

Offline Super Dude

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Re: 2012 Election Thread
« Reply #179 on: August 15, 2012, 07:19:45 AM »
As notable as "likability" and "charisma" are, the only thing that matters is their policy. When it comes to that, Obama and Romney are two pea's in a pod. (On anything that really matters).

If you are happy with Obama, I can't imagine there is too much not to like in Romney. If you don't like one, you're stuck with the same for another 4 years.

Romney Obama the same?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=IWDJEc92d38

I don't understand this at all. The two couldn't be more different. I don't understand the libertarian insistence on this "truth" even in the most incompatible cases.
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Offline Tick

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Re: 2012 Election Thread
« Reply #180 on: August 15, 2012, 07:23:50 AM »
As long as a president is likable, that's all that really matters.
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Offline rumborak

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Re: 2012 Election Thread
« Reply #181 on: August 15, 2012, 07:53:24 AM »
As notable as "likability" and "charisma" are, the only thing that matters is their policy.

That's a very shortsighted way of looking at things. Every time a president meets a leader of another country, the same mechanism that influenced us voting for him influences that leader. It's of course hard to put in numbers, but there have been many studies outside politics showing how success is correlated with charisma and looks.
Take as an extreme example Ron Paul. He has zero charisma and often rambles. How would such a leader reflect on one of the largest countries in the world? It would exude weakness, having jumped the shark.
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Offline Super Dude

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Re: 2012 Election Thread
« Reply #182 on: August 15, 2012, 08:26:56 AM »
On the other hand, all charisma and no leadership/platform is a pretty bad combination as well. I can't stand people who vote purely on personality or looks.
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Offline senecadawg2

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Re: 2012 Election Thread
« Reply #183 on: August 15, 2012, 08:29:13 AM »
There must be some middle ground. The president MUST have a certain level of charisma. However, he MUST also have a clue. Point is, Romney appears to be lacking in at least one of these aspects.
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Offline rumborak

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Re: 2012 Election Thread
« Reply #184 on: August 15, 2012, 08:34:02 AM »
I think he's the perfect guy for leading a company. A country however is more than just balance sheets.
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Offline kirksnosehair

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Re: 2012 Election Thread
« Reply #185 on: August 15, 2012, 08:51:25 AM »
As notable as "likability" and "charisma" are, the only thing that matters is their policy. When it comes to that, Obama and Romney are two pea's in a pod. (On anything that really matters).

If you are happy with Obama, I can't imagine there is too much not to like in Romney. If you don't like one, you're stuck with the same for another 4 years.

Romney Obama the same?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=IWDJEc92d38


The same?  Not even remotely close.  They are vastly different in both policy and ideology.  Especially on domestic policy.  Saying they're the same is like saying a freight train is the same as a banana.

Offline rumborak

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Re: 2012 Election Thread
« Reply #186 on: August 15, 2012, 08:54:01 AM »
Well, if your basic stance is the government needs to be almost completely dismantled, obviously every candidate is gonna look the same to you.
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Offline ohgar

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Re: 2012 Election Thread
« Reply #187 on: August 15, 2012, 09:21:07 AM »
Leave it to a German to equate "likeability" with "drinking beer" :P
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Offline jsem

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Re: 2012 Election Thread
« Reply #188 on: August 15, 2012, 09:26:07 AM »
Well, if your basic stance is the government needs to be almost completely dismantled, obviously every candidate is gonna look the same to you.
This is true.

Offline bosk1

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Re: 2012 Election Thread
« Reply #189 on: August 15, 2012, 09:52:48 AM »
Snapple and rumborak:  This is your reminder that the Political and Religious forum is for political and religious discussion, not for your personal snipes and one-liner flyby posts.  Next time I see it from either of you, your access to P/R will be temporarily or permanently revoked.
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Offline El Barto

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Re: 2012 Election Thread
« Reply #190 on: August 15, 2012, 01:34:29 PM »
Leave it to a German to equate "likeability" with "drinking beer" :P
Hell, I equated it to bumming smokes and bending Michelle over the East Wing parapet in '08. 
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Offline soundgarden

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Re: 2012 Election Thread
« Reply #191 on: August 16, 2012, 09:02:06 AM »
For me, its a clear statement about the religious people in this nation that a Mormon has a better chance at being president than other historic religions.  Muslims, Jews, Hindus are more "Christ-like" than this cult with laughable historic claims.  Israelites as Native Americans engaging in total war?  Seriously...

Offline rumborak

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Re: 2012 Election Thread
« Reply #192 on: August 16, 2012, 09:12:19 AM »
Well, no non-Christian is running for president, so I'm not sure how you could make that claim. And I think Romney's Mormonism is still a big bellyache for the GOP.
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Offline El Barto

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Re: 2012 Election Thread
« Reply #193 on: August 16, 2012, 11:30:49 AM »
Just read that Obama is a home-brewer.  First POTUS since Washington to brew beer in the White House.  That boosts his likeability stock considerably in my book. 
Argument, the presentation of reasonable views, never makes headway against conviction, and conviction takes no part in argument because it knows.
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Offline Scheavo

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Re: 2012 Election Thread
« Reply #194 on: August 16, 2012, 11:37:11 AM »
Just read that Obama is a home-brewer.  First POTUS since Washington to brew beer in the White House.  That boosts his likeability stock considerably in my book.

I do hope someone else is doing it for him, but ya, they should really make ads for that out west. He's also apparently uses honey from the first ladies beehives, which is another pretty cool plus.

I was wondering today, if pot were legal and accepted, would we see him show up to a rally with a huge, huge ass blunt and pass it around? Right now, he'll buy people some drinks and have a beer, so I don't see why it would be any different. He'd probably have his own pot garden too  :lol

Offline Super Dude

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Re: 2012 Election Thread
« Reply #195 on: August 16, 2012, 11:38:32 AM »
Well, no non-Christian is running for president, so I'm not sure how you could make that claim. And I think Romney's Mormonism is still a big bellyache for the GOP.

I guess the most applicable instance would be non-starter Joe Lieberman. I know that doesn't say much, but...
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Offline Scheavo

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Re: 2012 Election Thread
« Reply #196 on: August 16, 2012, 11:43:28 AM »
Well, no non-Christian is running for president, so I'm not sure how you could make that claim. And I think Romney's Mormonism is still a big bellyache for the GOP.

I guess the most applicable instance would be non-starter Joe Lieberman. I know that doesn't say much, but...

Apparently this is the first time a national party has a ticket where there are no protestants on the ticket. Romney's a Mormon, and Ryan's a Catholic.

Offline Super Dude

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Re: 2012 Election Thread
« Reply #197 on: August 16, 2012, 11:44:42 AM »
And Obama?
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Offline El Barto

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Re: 2012 Election Thread
« Reply #198 on: August 16, 2012, 11:49:21 AM »
Just read that Obama is a home-brewer.  First POTUS since Washington to brew beer in the White House.  That boosts his likeability stock considerably in my book.

I do hope someone else is doing it for him, but ya, they should really make ads for that out west. He's also apparently uses honey from the first ladies beehives, which is another pretty cool plus.

I was wondering today, if pot were legal and accepted, would we see him show up to a rally with a huge, huge ass blunt and pass it around? Right now, he'll buy people some drinks and have a beer, so I don't see why it would be any different. He'd probably have his own pot garden too  :lol
You can drink a beer or two as a social exercise without getting irresponsibly impaired.  Can't say that about a couple of hits off a joint.  Besides, given the spectacular extent of his past dope smoking, they wouldn't want to go anywhere near that.
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Offline Scheavo

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Re: 2012 Election Thread
« Reply #199 on: August 16, 2012, 12:18:40 PM »
Just read that Obama is a home-brewer.  First POTUS since Washington to brew beer in the White House.  That boosts his likeability stock considerably in my book.

I do hope someone else is doing it for him, but ya, they should really make ads for that out west. He's also apparently uses honey from the first ladies beehives, which is another pretty cool plus.

I was wondering today, if pot were legal and accepted, would we see him show up to a rally with a huge, huge ass blunt and pass it around? Right now, he'll buy people some drinks and have a beer, so I don't see why it would be any different. He'd probably have his own pot garden too  :lol
You can drink a beer or two as a social exercise without getting irresponsibly impaired.  Can't say that about a couple of hits off a joint.  Besides, given the spectacular extent of his past dope smoking, they wouldn't want to go anywhere near that.

I mean, if the double standards didn't exist, more of a hypothetical beyond it being legal.

Though also disagree about the irresponsibly impaired idea. Maybe not for a very casual user, but for someone who smoked like Obama used to, it wouldn't be any worse than having a few beers.

And Obama?

Isn't he some sort of Protestant? He's not Catholic, and he professes Christianity. We are talking public record here, not necessarily what the individual believes, because than we have to admit there's probably been a couple of atheists in the office, and a ticket or two with two atheists.

And not that I really care at all. It makes for an intersting political question, cause there are people who do care, but it certainly doesn't effect my vote one bit.

Offline Scheavo

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Re: 2012 Election Thread
« Reply #200 on: August 16, 2012, 12:31:35 PM »
Out of those five factors, I think Romney definitely has an advantage. Although I don't like the way he has run his campaign so far, which could take his advantage away. Mostly because he hasn't really gone after Obama on the economy. He should have been doing this months ago and reminding people of certain promises Obama made after he was elected about where the economy was 'supposed' to be in 2011/2012. He would be in a much better situation now if he did that.

I think he actually tried that, and he failed - or at least, he switched from doing that, to trying to rally his base up with a bunch of social issues. Obama's done what he can for the economy, and tried to do more; it's been the Republicans in the Senate who have stalled the economy.

Also, as for Medicare, I don't see how that isn't part of the economy. The big debate around the economy that Republicans make is regards to the debt and the deficit, and Medicare is a huge part of that. I mean, just look at Ryan's plan, which is supposed to create jobs (though, with what economic theory, I'm not sure), and Medicare takes a pretty big stage in that. If Republicans want to stick to their message that the debt and deficit are what troubles this economy, which is the message they've been making for 4+ years, then they have to deal with Medicare. As it stands, both tickets have entitlement reform, and "cut" around $700 billion from Medicare; Obama does it by going after fraud, subsidies for insurance companies, abuse and over-medication ("death panels" lol), whereas Romney and Ryan propose to do it by cutting back benefits and making seniors pay more. That's a substantial difference.

I'm still not sure how it is you think Obama' isn't been substantive. Oh, I'm sure the media doesn't portray it as much, they tend to hop onto gaffs and out of context quotes. Romney, on the other hand, has repeatedly refused to give any indication as to what he actually proposes. His tax plan will come to light after the election, he still has to compare his plan with Ryans to see where there's disagreement, etc. Romney has refused to get specific, all he does is throw out generalities that sound good. Obama has not done that, and there's plenty of speeches I can pull up that demonstrates that fact.

Offline kirksnosehair

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Re: 2012 Election Thread
« Reply #201 on: August 16, 2012, 12:35:20 PM »
Obama's religion is, for the purposes of this discussion, of the "Protestant" persuasion, since he's basically a Baptist:
https://atheism.about.com/od/barackobamareligionfaith/a/ObamaReligion.htm




Offline El Barto

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Re: 2012 Election Thread
« Reply #202 on: August 16, 2012, 12:36:04 PM »
Though also disagree about the irresponsibly impaired idea. Maybe not for a very casual user, but for someone who smoked like Obama used to, it wouldn't be any worse than having a few beers.
His tolerance is long gone.  I suspect he could drink 3 beers and nobody but his wife would notice.  You give him thee hits of some KB, and I guarantee it'll be noticeable.  Perhaps I was off about irresponsibly impaired, but he'd definitely be noticeably stoned.  I don't think that'd fly anymore than if he was noticeably drunk. 
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Offline Super Dude

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Re: 2012 Election Thread
« Reply #203 on: August 16, 2012, 12:49:34 PM »
I suspect on most people, a hit or two would be noticeable. Much easier to hide drunkenness, imo.
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Offline kirksnosehair

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Re: 2012 Election Thread
« Reply #204 on: August 16, 2012, 01:50:54 PM »
I have a sudden urge for some Doritos








Back on topic:  Um, what was the topic again?  :P

Offline bosk1

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Re: 2012 Election Thread
« Reply #205 on: August 16, 2012, 01:54:43 PM »
Um, what was the topic again?  :P
Doritos.

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Offline kirksnosehair

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Re: 2012 Election Thread
« Reply #206 on: August 16, 2012, 01:56:53 PM »
Well played  :hefdaddy

Offline Scheavo

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Re: 2012 Election Thread
« Reply #207 on: August 16, 2012, 03:13:52 PM »
https://news.yahoo.com/fact-check-romneys-plan-restore-medicare-spending-cuts-175417283--abc-news-politics.html?_esi=1

Quote
First, Romney appears willing to restore more favorable conditions for "waste, fraud and abuse" - at least in the short term.

Repealing the entirety of the ACA would mean the elimination of new protections already recouping record-high sums of wasted Medicare cash.

Of the estimated $70 billion of Medicare waste in 2010, for example, regulators have recovered an unprecedented $4 billion thanks to the new measures, according to the nonpartisan Center for Medicare Advocacy.

A Romney campaign official explains that the former governor would address the issue of "waste, fraud and abuse" separately, but did not offer specific details.
....
Romney has only offered broad outlines of his plan, not yet detailing how it would work or how he would pay for it.


Offline rumborak

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Re: 2012 Election Thread
« Reply #208 on: August 16, 2012, 03:18:44 PM »
Obama's religion is, for the purposes of this discussion, of the "Protestant" persuasion, since he's basically a Baptist:
https://atheism.about.com/od/barackobamareligionfaith/a/ObamaReligion.htm

Interesting read, didn't know that. Sounds like he's pretty nonreligious overall.
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Offline eric42434224

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Re: 2012 Election Thread
« Reply #209 on: August 16, 2012, 03:27:11 PM »
Sounds like he's pretty nonreligious overall.

First beer....now this?

Yup, now I REALLY like him.

If I find out he squeezes boobs while eating bacon, I will become a squealing fanboy.

 :lol
Oh shit, you're right!

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