Author Topic: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man  (Read 213457 times)

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Offline Ben_Jamin

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #2380 on: March 30, 2021, 04:47:48 PM »
What is this mental problem that you think they all have? You've gone so far as to link it to childhood trauma now, as if you have an understanding of what their problem is. How does it manifest itself? Simply that they don't share the accepted values of the nation as a whole? I don't get it.

We won't know unless we sit down and talk to them. That's when it might not even be a mental issue, it could be them just acting up because they aren't being paid attention to.

I did not say I know their mental issues are related to past Traumas. I am implying...It COULD be stemmed from childhood trauma. But we won't know unless, we sit down and listen to the children.

All I am saying is we need to sit down and listen to the children.
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Offline Dave_Manchester

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #2381 on: April 04, 2021, 08:52:08 AM »
On today's episode of Grifters Gonna Grift...

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/04/03/us/politics/trump-donations.html


"Stacy Blatt was in hospice care last September listening to Rush Limbaugh’s dire warnings about how badly Donald J. Trump’s campaign needed money when he went online and chipped in everything he could: $500.

It was a big sum for a 63-year-old battling cancer and living in Kansas City on less than $1,000 per month. But that single contribution — federal records show it was his first ever — quickly multiplied. Another $500 was withdrawn the next day, then $500 the next week and every week through mid-October, without his knowledge — until Mr. Blatt’s bank account had been depleted and frozen. When his utility and rent payments bounced, he called his brother, Russell, for help.

What the Blatts soon discovered was $3,000 in withdrawals by the Trump campaign in less than 30 days. They called their bank and said they thought they were victims of fraud.

“It felt,” Russell said, “like it was a scam.”

But what the Blatts believed was duplicity was actually an intentional scheme to boost revenues by the Trump campaign and the for-profit company that processed its online donations, WinRed. Facing a cash crunch and getting badly outspent by the Democrats, the campaign had begun last September to set up recurring donations by default for online donors, for every week until the election"




(be sure to read all the article because it touches on something I've brought up several times before - how Trump continued to scam his fans out of money even after the election under the guise of 'STOP THE STEAL!' in order to pay off his debts from his previous scams)
« Last Edit: April 04, 2021, 04:25:07 PM by Dave_Manchester »
"As democracy is perfected, the office of President represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their hearts' desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron" - H.L.Mencken, 26th July 1920.

"China has total respect for Donald Trump and for Donald Trump's very very large brain" - American President Donald Trump, 26th September 2018.

Offline jingle.boy

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #2382 on: April 04, 2021, 09:30:45 AM »
Wow!  Standard practice now for the GOP.  Unreal?
Fox = drip-feeding dumb people with rage-porn. CNN = drip-feeding smug assholes with moral reassurance.
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Offline Dave_Manchester

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #2383 on: April 04, 2021, 03:48:49 PM »
(Continuing on from the chat in the Cancel Culture thread...)

Trump faces a different kind of challenge to most other presidents who leave office because the main source of revenue for them - speaking fees - isn't really an option for him, primarily because he is incapable of speaking about any subject under the sun other than himself, but also because nobody except MyPillow wants to hear a word he has to say.

In the 15 years between Bill leaving office in 2001 and Hillary announcing her run for president in 2016, the Clintons made $153 million in speaking fees (that's documented - the real figure will be much higher)...

https://edition.cnn.com/2016/02/05/politics/hillary-clinton-bill-clinton-paid-speeches/index.html

A lot of that came from the very banks and corporations they claim to be fighting against (as I wrote before in another thread, the Democrat Party is basically a front party for corporations and the military industrial complex, and how they have positioned themselves as America's 'left' party is a stroke of political genius).

That's where the cash is for former grifter presidents and top-ranking politicians (there are exceptions like Carter, who chose to do good after leaving office), and Trump has enough self-awareness to know it's not a market he can tap into. Merrill Lynch aren't paying a quarter of a million to have some clown ramble on about how nobody knows more about banking than him.

That's why he's set up this new 45office.com website, where he's going to be selling off Cameo-style 'personal greetings', as well as bombarding his subscribers with fundraising appeals to stop America sliding into gunless communism. Trump's retirement plan is to continue exactly where he left off. Terrorising poorly-educated rubes with a vision of a dystopian America right around the corner, stripping them of every last cent they have, and then using the loot to pay off his debts. The easiest scam in the book, evangelists and politicians (the 2 most parasitic classes of human being in my opinion and experience) have been doing it to the ignorant for decades.
"As democracy is perfected, the office of President represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their hearts' desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron" - H.L.Mencken, 26th July 1920.

"China has total respect for Donald Trump and for Donald Trump's very very large brain" - American President Donald Trump, 26th September 2018.

Offline lonestar

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #2384 on: April 04, 2021, 04:30:04 PM »
Slowly developing into the largest non religious cult ever.

Offline Dave_Manchester

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #2385 on: April 04, 2021, 04:37:58 PM »
Give it time, it'll be a religious one. I said a year or so ago that I think Trump will eventually go into the religion market (if Kenneth Copeland can make 300 million from it, Trump can easily make a billion). If his new 'Save America' super PAC doesn't clear his debts...

https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2021/03/donald-trump-super-pac-scam

...I can definitely see him announcing that God has told him he's the chosen one and everyone who donates $500 will be personally greeted by Jesus at the pearly gates ($300 for St Peter).
"As democracy is perfected, the office of President represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their hearts' desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron" - H.L.Mencken, 26th July 1920.

"China has total respect for Donald Trump and for Donald Trump's very very large brain" - American President Donald Trump, 26th September 2018.

Offline El Barto

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #2386 on: April 04, 2021, 08:18:01 PM »
Slowly developing into the largest non religious cult ever.
I hadn't really thought of it until now, but his is probably already the biggest cult of any nature. It really just depends on whether or not you include the Abrahamic religions as cults, and I probably wouldn't. And of those, the numbers probably aren't all that disparate. The number of people who'll send him five bills to save democracy from the libs is probably pretty similar to the number of people who'll kick in $500 so their reverend can upgrade to a Gulfstream G700 (for safety reasons, of course). Outside of that the Moonies and the Hare Krishnas would kill to have his numbers.
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Offline lonestar

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #2387 on: April 04, 2021, 09:49:51 PM »
I only made that distinction to exclude the Abrahamic religions, so yeah, it probably is the biggest. I drove through the CA central valley, strong Trump country, and every other house still has those stupid flags on them.

Offline Stadler

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #2388 on: April 05, 2021, 08:06:32 AM »
Wow!  Standard practice now for the GOP.  Unreal?

Unnecessary and inaccurate.  How did you get from "Trump" to "GOP"?    Are you really sure ALL Republicans are doing this or are in on the con?

Because this article is pretty clear that it's not only Republicans that are in on the game
.

And as a general proposition, if Trump is doing something illegal, then he should be prosecuted for it.   A former Attorney General - who made her name on consumer protection, fighting fraud and abuse - is now the second most powerful person in our country; that should be incentive enough to get the ball rolling.  I suspect that even Democrats aren't really interested in pursuing the scam because what's good for the goose is, of course, good for the gander.

Offline El Barto

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #2389 on: April 05, 2021, 08:12:01 AM »
Give it time, it'll be a religious one. I said a year or so ago that I think Trump will eventually go into the religion market (if Kenneth Copeland can make 300 million from it, Trump can easily make a billion). If his new 'Save America' super PAC doesn't clear his debts...

https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2021/03/donald-trump-super-pac-scam

...I can definitely see him announcing that God has told him he's the chosen one and everyone who donates $500 will be personally greeted by Jesus at the pearly gates ($300 for St Peter).
It would be an interesting experiment. Trump would be an awful evangelist. The gig necessarily involves being a subordinate. You can tout yourself as God's favored son and designated mouthpiece, but you've still got to be his employee. He'll always be the boss. I don't think Trump can do that. In fact, I think Trump is his own god. However, considering the people we're dealing with, both Trumptards and Christians, I don't think it'll make any difference. Trumptards see nothing but greatness, no matter how terrible he is at his job, and Christians are terrible at reconciling the behavior of others with the expected behavior of their own faith (to the extent that such a thing even exists). I suppose Reverend Trump would be the same iconoclastic presence, destroying the expected tenets of the monetization of faith, just like he was in the presidency.
Argument, the presentation of reasonable views, never makes headway against conviction, and conviction takes no part in argument because it knows.
E.F. Benson

Offline Stadler

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #2390 on: April 05, 2021, 08:13:42 AM »
I only made that distinction to exclude the Abrahamic religions, so yeah, it probably is the biggest. I drove through the CA central valley, strong Trump country, and every other house still has those stupid flags on them.

Side bar:  I live on a side street off a road that is not a main thoroughfare, but is well traveled.  A house on the corner of my street and the main road has had a Trump banner on the front lawn for a couple years now.   At some point, after the inauguration, it switched to a "FUCK BIDEN" banner (it's blue with white letters, I'd guess about five, six feet long and about two feet high).   About a month ago I was driving by and there was what looked like a convergence on the front lawn; a car was stopped on the side of the road and there were about five people on the lawn discussing something, heatedly.    The next day the sign was modified to "F-" and a black bar over the "U-C-K".   Shortly after that, it switched to Trump something or other (I can't remember; I'm not interested in the message as much as the progression).

It's fascinating to watch the partisanship at play, and the hypocrisy - on both sides, really - when it comes to messaging and 'tolerance' (in quotes because there's nothing at all tolerant about any of this).

Offline jingle.boy

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #2391 on: April 05, 2021, 08:26:48 AM »
Wow!  Standard practice now for the GOP.  Unreal?

Unnecessary and inaccurate.  How did you get from "Trump" to "GOP"?    Are you really sure ALL Republicans are doing this or are in on the con?

I did not mean to imply that 100% of Republican candidates were engaging in this practice.  I should've known you would find a fault in the statement to imply something not intended (no snark to you... it's what you do).  It's just how read it from the article that Dave posted.  I didn't put on my investigative journalist hat to go and find any "other" perspective. 

Quote
Ronna McDaniel, the R.N.C. chairwoman, crowed to Fox News about the achievement without mentioning how exactly the party had pulled it off. “Republicans are thinking smarter digitally,” she said, and were poised to “outwork, outdo, and outmaneuver the Democrats at every turn.”
.....
Republicans widely hailed WinRed as one of the standout successes of the 2020 cycle, and in a memo last October the company declared itself the “trusted, recognizable platform” for Republican giving. “Scam PACs, shady operators and outright fraud is unfortunately a common occurrence in the online political donation world — particularly on the right,” the memo stated. “WinRed helps civilize the Wild West of the G.O.P. donation ecosystem.”
....
Today, the websites of various Republican Party committees and top congressional Republicans, including Representative Kevin McCarthy, the House minority leader, and Senator Mitch McConnell, the Senate minority leader, include prechecked yellow boxes for multiple or recurring donations.

And this, as it related to how Biden fund-raised in this regard:
Quote
ActBlue said in a statement that it had begun to phase out prechecked recurring boxes “unless groups were explicitly asking for recurring contributions.” Some prominent Democratic groups, including both congressional campaign committees, continue to precheck recurring boxes regardless of that guidance.

On the below matter, so what?  You don't need to pull the whataboutism card.  I scanned this article, and have no idea how it relates to the practice of pre-checking a "recurring" box, as well as a 'make another one-time contribution' box


Because this article is pretty clear that it's not only Republicans that are in on the game
.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2021, 09:44:50 AM by jingle.boy »
Fox = drip-feeding dumb people with rage-porn. CNN = drip-feeding smug assholes with moral reassurance.
I'll do my best, but this? The guy's getting Llamathrust.
Happy is the dog that stops and licks his balls.

Offline Stadler

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #2392 on: April 05, 2021, 08:30:09 AM »
Give it time, it'll be a religious one. I said a year or so ago that I think Trump will eventually go into the religion market (if Kenneth Copeland can make 300 million from it, Trump can easily make a billion). If his new 'Save America' super PAC doesn't clear his debts...

https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2021/03/donald-trump-super-pac-scam

...I can definitely see him announcing that God has told him he's the chosen one and everyone who donates $500 will be personally greeted by Jesus at the pearly gates ($300 for St Peter).
It would be an interesting experiment. Trump would be an awful evangelist. The gig necessarily involves being a subordinate. You can tout yourself as God's favored son and designated mouthpiece, but you've still got to be his employee. He'll always be the boss. I don't think Trump can do that. In fact, I think Trump is his own god. However, considering the people we're dealing with, both Trumptards and Christians, I don't think it'll make any difference. Trumptards see nothing but greatness, no matter how terrible he is at his job, and Christians are terrible at reconciling the behavior of others with the expected behavior of their own faith (to the extent that such a thing even exists). I suppose Reverend Trump would be the same iconoclastic presence, destroying the expected tenets of the monetization of faith, just like he was in the presidency.

There's an increasing market for evangelists that don't push what we'd call "religion", but push what I would call "philosophies".   NXIUM isn't a religious organization, but Keith Raniere is an evangelist in almost every other sense of the word.   I don't see Trump being very good at that, either, but it need not have a subordination to it.  L. Ron Hubbard certainly wasn't a subordinate in that way (unless you count the aliens).

Offline Stadler

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #2393 on: April 05, 2021, 08:33:49 AM »
Wow!  Standard practice now for the GOP.  Unreal?

Unnecessary and inaccurate.  How did you get from "Trump" to "GOP"?    Are you really sure ALL Republicans are doing this or are in on the con?

I did not mean to imply that 100% of Republican candidates were engaging in this practice.  I should've known you would find a fault in the statement to imply something not intended (no snark to you... it's what you do).  It's just how read it from the article that Dave posted.  I didn't put on my investigative journalist hat to go and find any "other" perspective. 

Quote
Ronna McDaniel, the R.N.C. chairwoman, crowed to Fox News about the achievement without mentioning how exactly the party had pulled it off. “Republicans are thinking smarter digitally,” she said, and were poised to “outwork, outdo, and outmaneuver the Democrats at every turn.”
.....
Republicans widely hailed WinRed as one of the standout successes of the 2020 cycle, and in a memo last October the company declared itself the “trusted, recognizable platform” for Republican giving. “Scam PACs, shady operators and outright fraud is unfortunately a common occurrence in the online political donation world — particularly on the right,” the memo stated. “WinRed helps civilize the Wild West of the G.O.P. donation ecosystem.”
....
Today, the websites of various Republican Party committees and top congressional Republicans, including Representative Kevin McCarthy, the House minority leader, and Senator Mitch McConnell, the Senate minority leader, include prechecked yellow boxes for multiple or recurring donations.

And this, as it related to how Biden fund-raised in this regard:
Quote
ActBlue said in a statement that it had begun to phase out prechecked recurring boxes “unless groups were explicitly asking for recurring contributions.” Some prominent Democratic groups, including both congressional campaign committees, continue to precheck recurring boxes regardless of that guidance.

On the below matter, so what?  You don't need to pull the whataboutism card.  I scanned this article, and have no idea how it relates to the practice of pre-checking a "recurring" box, as well as a 'make another one-time contribution' box



I don't see refuting false or misleading information as "pulling the whataboutism card".  And if it is, so be it.  The general sanctimony around here regarding the GOP specifically and Republicans generally is far worse than a mild ad hominem rebuke.   

Offline El Barto

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #2394 on: April 05, 2021, 08:45:28 AM »
Give it time, it'll be a religious one. I said a year or so ago that I think Trump will eventually go into the religion market (if Kenneth Copeland can make 300 million from it, Trump can easily make a billion). If his new 'Save America' super PAC doesn't clear his debts...

https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2021/03/donald-trump-super-pac-scam

...I can definitely see him announcing that God has told him he's the chosen one and everyone who donates $500 will be personally greeted by Jesus at the pearly gates ($300 for St Peter).
It would be an interesting experiment. Trump would be an awful evangelist. The gig necessarily involves being a subordinate. You can tout yourself as God's favored son and designated mouthpiece, but you've still got to be his employee. He'll always be the boss. I don't think Trump can do that. In fact, I think Trump is his own god. However, considering the people we're dealing with, both Trumptards and Christians, I don't think it'll make any difference. Trumptards see nothing but greatness, no matter how terrible he is at his job, and Christians are terrible at reconciling the behavior of others with the expected behavior of their own faith (to the extent that such a thing even exists). I suppose Reverend Trump would be the same iconoclastic presence, destroying the expected tenets of the monetization of faith, just like he was in the presidency.

There's an increasing market for evangelists that don't push what we'd call "religion", but push what I would call "philosophies".   NXIUM isn't a religious organization, but Keith Raniere is an evangelist in almost every other sense of the word.   I don't see Trump being very good at that, either, but it need not have a subordination to it.  L. Ron Hubbard certainly wasn't a subordinate in that way (unless you count the aliens).
Good call with the Scientologists. I'd forgotten about those guys. Trump's still got higher numbers, though. Miscavige can only dare to dream. Moreover, he's already gotten a huge head start with the Christians. Not that his credibility actually matters, but jumping to a new "faith" would be a setback. He's got a ton of evangelical Christians right now ready to bend over for him, so there's no point pulling Yahweh now when he's got a good lead and the game is still early.
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Offline jingle.boy

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #2395 on: April 05, 2021, 09:51:18 AM »
I don't see refuting false or misleading information as "pulling the whataboutism card".  And if it is, so be it.  The general sanctimony around here regarding the GOP specifically and Republicans generally is far worse than a mild ad hominem rebuke.

Really?  The article that Dave posted was all about the practice of using pre-checked boxes to willfully get donor to donate more than they intended.  The article you cited was about how politicians who failed to get elected (or who had died) were still spending their campaign donations for personal reasons.  Seems like two totally different matters to me.  I guess if you back up far enough, it's all a matter of political corruption.

I'm unsure what information was false or misleading that you had to refute.  My implication that it was "all GOP"?  If so, realize that I simply wasn't explicitly clear - if that is to be deemed false and misleading, so be it.
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Offline lonestar

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #2396 on: April 05, 2021, 11:12:59 AM »
I only made that distinction to exclude the Abrahamic religions, so yeah, it probably is the biggest. I drove through the CA central valley, strong Trump country, and every other house still has those stupid flags on them.

Side bar:  I live on a side street off a road that is not a main thoroughfare, but is well traveled.  A house on the corner of my street and the main road has had a Trump banner on the front lawn for a couple years now.   At some point, after the inauguration, it switched to a "FUCK BIDEN" banner (it's blue with white letters, I'd guess about five, six feet long and about two feet high).   About a month ago I was driving by and there was what looked like a convergence on the front lawn; a car was stopped on the side of the road and there were about five people on the lawn discussing something, heatedly.    The next day the sign was modified to "F-" and a black bar over the "U-C-K".   Shortly after that, it switched to Trump something or other (I can't remember; I'm not interested in the message as much as the progression).

It's fascinating to watch the partisanship at play, and the hypocrisy - on both sides, really - when it comes to messaging and 'tolerance' (in quotes because there's nothing at all tolerant about any of this).

I think I'd respect the fuck Biden flag more than to just keep flying the stupid Maga one. At least there's some sort of progress being made  :lol

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #2397 on: April 05, 2021, 12:03:34 PM »
I think I'd respect the fuck Biden flag more than to just keep flying the stupid Maga one. At least there's some sort of progress being made  :lol

And a level of accepting reality.
Fox = drip-feeding dumb people with rage-porn. CNN = drip-feeding smug assholes with moral reassurance.
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Offline El Barto

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #2398 on: April 05, 2021, 12:18:38 PM »
I only made that distinction to exclude the Abrahamic religions, so yeah, it probably is the biggest. I drove through the CA central valley, strong Trump country, and every other house still has those stupid flags on them.

Side bar:  I live on a side street off a road that is not a main thoroughfare, but is well traveled.  A house on the corner of my street and the main road has had a Trump banner on the front lawn for a couple years now.   At some point, after the inauguration, it switched to a "FUCK BIDEN" banner (it's blue with white letters, I'd guess about five, six feet long and about two feet high).   About a month ago I was driving by and there was what looked like a convergence on the front lawn; a car was stopped on the side of the road and there were about five people on the lawn discussing something, heatedly.    The next day the sign was modified to "F-" and a black bar over the "U-C-K".   Shortly after that, it switched to Trump something or other (I can't remember; I'm not interested in the message as much as the progression).

It's fascinating to watch the partisanship at play, and the hypocrisy - on both sides, really - when it comes to messaging and 'tolerance' (in quotes because there's nothing at all tolerant about any of this).
Is his house subject to an HOA? His "FUCK BIDEN" banner is actually a poster child for 1st amendment jurisprudence. Hard to get more protected than that, so The Man can't order him to take it down. An HOA is far more powerful (and tyrannical) than The Man, though. Probably would have gone three ways. One, he decided to not be any more of a dick than he already was. I'm certainly cool with that. Two is the HOA. Three is that he doesn't have the foggiest about the law and somebody bluffed him into taking it down with threats of imprisonment, massive fines, foreclosure, deportation, etc. If we're talking run of the mill Trumptard, my money is on the last option (though 1 is a very close second).
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Offline lonestar

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #2399 on: April 05, 2021, 01:23:58 PM »
I'd actually go with the HOA... Or the neighbors were like minded but wanted censorship for 'the children'

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #2400 on: April 05, 2021, 01:24:55 PM »
No HOA.    I don't know the guy, never even seen him to be honest, but if I ever do, I may stop and ask him.  For my money, it's almost certainly the last one.  Our town is weird like that; it's a big town, it's got several distinct "sections", but it's rather random.  I can take you by houses that are pure pig sties, and yet, my friend left a couch out front (thinking someone might want it) for two days and received a "blight" citation in the mail.   Part of the reason I'm moving, to be honest!  :) :)

It's worth saying, though, that it depends on what you mean by Trumptard.  I guess to some, "Fuck Biden" is all it takes to be a Trumptard (though apparently "Drumpf", "tRump" and all the rest is adult, educated discourse, amirite?) but around where I live it's a slightly higher class of -tard.  I'm not saying that everyone in CT is a genius or smart as a whip, but the notion of the simp who is too stupid to remember to breath doesn't really fit.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2021, 01:31:56 PM by Stadler »

Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #2401 on: April 06, 2021, 08:31:59 AM »
I don't think "Fuck Biden" is necessarily a sign of a Trumptard.  Hell, I know lots of left-leaners who would fly that flag.
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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #2402 on: April 06, 2021, 11:30:45 AM »
I don't think "Fuck Biden" is necessarily a sign of a Trumptard.  Hell, I know lots of left-leaners who would fly that flag.

Very true...

Offline Jaffa

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #2403 on: April 06, 2021, 11:45:27 AM »
Yeah, I was gonna say, during the election, I would have actually found a 'Fuck Biden' sign to be quite refreshing.  It doesn't suggest any undying loyalty to Trump, at least not in the same way that the 'Trump Will Save Us' sign in my neighborhood did.  And yes, that sign is still there, by the way.  :lol
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Offline Ben_Jamin

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #2404 on: April 06, 2021, 11:55:13 AM »
I find it funny how a flag changes peoples perspectives of a person...

The only difference is one is showing praise and one is showing dissent. But in the end, they would've still likely voted Trump.

I've seen neighborhoods with both a Trump Flag and a Biden Flag. And Also, BLM flags and Rainbow Flags, which to me are just the same as a "Trump will save us" flag.

It just reminds me of Futurama...

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Offline Dave_Manchester

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #2405 on: April 06, 2021, 05:33:10 PM »
Give it time, it'll be a religious one. I said a year or so ago that I think Trump will eventually go into the religion market (if Kenneth Copeland can make 300 million from it, Trump can easily make a billion). If his new 'Save America' super PAC doesn't clear his debts...

https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2021/03/donald-trump-super-pac-scam

...I can definitely see him announcing that God has told him he's the chosen one and everyone who donates $500 will be personally greeted by Jesus at the pearly gates ($300 for St Peter).
It would be an interesting experiment. Trump would be an awful evangelist. The gig necessarily involves being a subordinate. You can tout yourself as God's favored son and designated mouthpiece, but you've still got to be his employee. He'll always be the boss. I don't think Trump can do that. In fact, I think Trump is his own god. However, considering the people we're dealing with, both Trumptards and Christians, I don't think it'll make any difference. Trumptards see nothing but greatness, no matter how terrible he is at his job, and Christians are terrible at reconciling the behavior of others with the expected behavior of their own faith (to the extent that such a thing even exists). I suppose Reverend Trump would be the same iconoclastic presence, destroying the expected tenets of the monetization of faith, just like he was in the presidency.
You remember that guy Harold Camping? He was an evangelist and 'Christian' broadcaster who kept predicting the end of the world (this despite the Bible saying no man can ever know that date, but I've no doubt there's a version somewhere that says he can, much like there's a version that says it's ok to slaughter children provided they're not innocent), and then every time the date would come and go he'd simply change it to a later one. And each and every time he announced the new date he'd call upon his followers to send him their money all over again.

Not unreasonably, journalists asked him why he needed their cash if everyone was going to die soon, and his answer was almost beautiful in its simplicity: billboards. He needed to warn others of the apocalypse, so that they could be saved before it's too late. The more cash you sent him, the more people he could warn, and the more Jesus would smile upon you for helping save so many souls (why didn't he sell his own cars and homes and possessions to pay for these billboards, you might well ask, since the Rapture was right around the corner...?)

I can't even begin to imagine the balls you need to have to so brazenly con people like that over and over again, that guy's nuts must have had their own fucking moons. But then I look at Trump who's spent half a century conning everyone from children's cancer charities to students at his bullshit 'university' to the MAGA minions with his 'STOP THE STEAL!" scam, and I think: meh, if you're sociopathic enough, why not? If you see your fellow human beings as nothing other than objects to be bled dry of every last cent they possess, what's really stopping you, especially in a country like America that allows it to happen?

That's why I think Trump would be a very successful religious leader in the USA. You said he'd be a bad one because he'd consider God beneath him and wouldn't be able to hide that fact. But honestly, I think when you consider which particular audience he'd be looking to scam, none of that would matter. When I watch an evangelist's show, I have the same feelings as when I watch a Trump rally: I am astounded that so many grown adults apparently don't realise they're being taken for a ride by a conman. Trump, like all the most successful religious leaders, is very good at creating a kind of brainless mania at his events, drawing out primal impulses like fear and hatred and a need to feel a part of something 'huge' and 'special'. Someone above in this thread said that in America you even have signs saying "Trump Will Save Us" - there's a sap right there ready to donate to the Reverand Trump.

I'm not saying Trump will ever get on a stage with a Bible and 'preach', because that format won't work, he won't be able to go 5 minutes without talking about how great he is. Plus, at some point he would have to read at least something from the Bible, and he can't do that because his voice very noticably changes when he has to read something, it becomes dead and toneless because he's not registering any of it, he's like a child reading words in a language he doesn't understand. He's only able to whip up a crowd when he's delivering a stream of consciousness straight from his bile-filled gut. So no, I'm not saying he could be the same type of conman as Copeland or Falwell or Graham or Robertson, but I CAN see him following in the footsteps of Trump Univerity by setting up Trump Churches. Churches in America are a goldmine, and as you yourself noted, he already has a ready and willing cult of tens of millions. He's spent the last 4 years doing huge favours for all the religious grifters in America (in return, they agree to do those photos where they lay their hands upon the new messiah), he can now call in some favours and start networking with them. I am 100% confident that every one of those 'preachers' who enriched themselves by putting their hands upon him and proclaiming him America's saviour has since handed over to his Save America slush fund the contact details of their congregations.



p.s: On Easter Sunday, the Right Reverend Donald "Nobody Loves Jesus More Than Me" Trump issued a beautifully cogent 20-word message to honour the occasion of Christ's resurrection, which symbolises the triumph of peace and divine love over hatred and division. The statement read:

"Happy Easter to ALL, including the Radical Left CRAZIES who rigged our Presidential Election, and want to destroy our Country!”

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/apr/04/trump-wishes-happy-easter-to-radical-left-crazies

And the MAGA 'Christians' on Twitter absolutely ate it up. Don Junior was farming donations to the 'Save America' super PAC scam all day on the back of his dad's Easter message (God would be so proud). There is one thing and one thing only that Donald Trump knows: his fucking dumb followers.
"As democracy is perfected, the office of President represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their hearts' desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron" - H.L.Mencken, 26th July 1920.

"China has total respect for Donald Trump and for Donald Trump's very very large brain" - American President Donald Trump, 26th September 2018.

Offline Dave_Manchester

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #2406 on: April 06, 2021, 05:52:35 PM »
Part 2, more abstract.

I deleted one of my posts a couple of days ago because I didn't flesh out the idea properly, but the gist of it was that in my opinion America has never quite figured out how to reconcile its twin obsessions of 1) religion and 2) greed & self-interest, and the result is that Christianity in particular has been twisted into something utterly shallow and egocentric (capitalism is not compatible with Christianity). Athletes and film stars thanking God for their stupid bullshit while African children starve to death, evangelists flying around in a fleet of private jets, putting 'In God We Trust' on your money, every president signing off yet another announcement of yet another war-for-profit with the words "God bless America", as if he agrees with you on this scummy shit. I think there is a uniquely 'American' brand of Christianity, one that I find very distasteful but which in some ways helps me understand why so many 'Christians' were attracted to Trump even though their own alleged faith teaches them to reject someone like him. Neal Morse pushes this brand; this ego-driven "me, me, me" mentality of self-importantly thanking God for all your privileged bullshit that comes only at the expense of someone else's misfortune (I keep waiting for him to make a concept album about Yemeni children who are starving to death because of the wars that America kicks off with the rallying call "God bless America"; praise Jesus for that, Neal, because this is in part why your country is rich enough to afford top-class medical care for your kid).

I suppose it's a natural result of cultivating a society that equates success and self-worth with how much wealth you have (cracks me up every time I see your billionaires like Gates and Zuckerberg and Buffett and Bezos described as "philanthropists"). Capitalism needs to do this in order to 'work'. The post I deleted, I ended it by saying that Trump strikes me as potentially being some kind of ultimate American evangelist, the natural continuation of Copeland and Camping. He's cruel, he's stupid, he's self-obsessed, he's a hypocrite, he's quick to condemn others but never accepts guilt in himself, he sells dumb but instantly gratifying visions of 'paradise' and 'hell', he warns of impending doom right around the corner and presents himself as "the one man" who can keep it at bay, he's arrogant, greedy, sins like a motherfucker, and pretends to be 'Christian'. I get why he resonated with so many millions. 

We'll return to this in a year or so but I'm placing a bet now that Trump Churches will be set up by the end of next year at the latest.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2021, 06:20:02 PM by Dave_Manchester »
"As democracy is perfected, the office of President represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their hearts' desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron" - H.L.Mencken, 26th July 1920.

"China has total respect for Donald Trump and for Donald Trump's very very large brain" - American President Donald Trump, 26th September 2018.

Offline Cool Chris

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #2407 on: April 06, 2021, 09:20:38 PM »
A couple quick takeaways.

Quote
....drawing out primal impulses like fear and hatred and a need to feel a part of something 'huge' and 'special'

There is definitely a sense of people (Americans?) searching for some sense of meaning and belonging, wherever it may be. I know Stadler has spoken of this better than I could.

Quote
...this ego-driven "me, me, me" mentality of self-importantly thanking God for all your privileged bullshit that comes only at the expense of someone else's misfortune

I don't know if privilege is always a result of someone else's misfortune. I do not know if you were speaking specifically (you referenced Neal Morse, who I don't really know anything about) or the "privileged" in general.
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Offline Dave_Manchester

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #2408 on: April 07, 2021, 06:57:49 AM »
A couple quick takeaways.

Quote
....drawing out primal impulses like fear and hatred and a need to feel a part of something 'huge' and 'special'

There is definitely a sense of people (Americans?) searching for some sense of meaning and belonging, wherever it may be. I know Stadler has spoken of this better than I could.

Quote
...this ego-driven "me, me, me" mentality of self-importantly thanking God for all your privileged bullshit that comes only at the expense of someone else's misfortune

I don't know if privilege is always a result of someone else's misfortune. I do not know if you were speaking specifically (you referenced Neal Morse, who I don't really know anything about) or the "privileged" in general.

To be clear I was talking about the privileged in general. There may be examples of someone's good fortune coming at no cost to someone else (this isn't a strong opinion of mine, I'm ready to be proven wrong) but I can't think of any. Without the 3rd world there can be no first world, the 'developed' world's wealth and high standard of living is based upon the exploitation of poorer nations and people. Before thanking God for whatever crap we have in our lives it'd be useful to first pause and ask how that crap came to be in our lives.   

The broader point though is about the lack of perspective (a symptom of egotism) that comes with this 'distasteful' brand of Christianity, as I called it. To again talk about Morse, he didn't actually read The Pilgrim's Progress by Bunyan when writing Similitude of a Dream. Instead his 'teacher' introduced him to some of the ideas and that was enough, Neal realised he could get another devotional album out of it. I personally find that strange. If something that is so important to you - your faith - has been captivated by a new writer or book, wouldn't you want to actually read the thing and fully contemplate its ideas before launching into another overture? To me it's another example of simply "using" something as a commodity, cynically exploiting it, rather than taking the time and energy to fully understand it for its own sake. It's like walking along a road just far enough to see what you 'need' but never bothering to go to the end and possibly be surprised or challenged.

But ok, whatever, he can do that. But then on the documentary of the album when he's starting to become angry with everyone, there's a grotesque scene where he's at his piano and he starts praying with enormous fervour to God to show him how to complete the album (here's an idea - how about you actually read the book you're singing about?). I simply can't fathom the magnitude of ego you must have to actually ask God to help you finish a prog rock album, and to do it with such agony and appeal in your voice. Go to a children's cancer ward, get some damn perspective on how absolutely ridiculous and full of yourself you look and sound right now. At what point did praying for your daily bread (beautiful and humbling) morph into praying for a synth lead (self-absorbed and self-important)?

Stadler (you mentioned him) and I write about similar things, just often from different angles. The common theme is a culture of intellectual laziness, the need for validation, and a massively inflated sense of self-importance. The "search for meaning and belonging" (as you phrased it) is something that connects all people, and it's why throughout history charlatans have come along who offered to fill that longing with crass 'answers'. The Copelands, the Trumps, the Falwells (Stadler will rightly and justifiably offer leftist equivalents). There's an enormous market for it in America and it's getting bigger, not smaller.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2021, 08:56:06 AM by Dave_Manchester »
"As democracy is perfected, the office of President represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their hearts' desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron" - H.L.Mencken, 26th July 1920.

"China has total respect for Donald Trump and for Donald Trump's very very large brain" - American President Donald Trump, 26th September 2018.

Offline Ben_Jamin

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #2409 on: April 07, 2021, 09:16:06 AM »
A couple quick takeaways.

Quote
....drawing out primal impulses like fear and hatred and a need to feel a part of something 'huge' and 'special'

There is definitely a sense of people (Americans?) searching for some sense of meaning and belonging, wherever it may be. I know Stadler has spoken of this better than I could.

Quote
...this ego-driven "me, me, me" mentality of self-importantly thanking God for all your privileged bullshit that comes only at the expense of someone else's misfortune

I don't know if privilege is always a result of someone else's misfortune. I do not know if you were speaking specifically (you referenced Neal Morse, who I don't really know anything about) or the "privileged" in general.

To be clear I was talking about the privileged in general. There may be examples of someone's good fortune coming at no cost to someone else (this isn't a strong opinion of mine, I'm ready to be proven wrong) but I can't think of any. Without the 3rd world there can be no first world, the 'developed' world's wealth and high standard of living is based upon the exploitation of poorer nations and people. Before thanking God for whatever crap we have in our lives it'd be useful to first pause and ask how that crap came to be in our lives.   

The broader point though is about the lack of perspective (a symptom of egotism) that comes with this 'distasteful' brand of Christianity, as I called it. To again talk about Morse, he didn't actually read The Pilgrim's Progress by Bunyan when writing Similitude of a Dream. Instead his 'teacher' introduced him to some of the ideas and that was enough, Neal realised he could get another devotional album out of it. I personally find that strange. If something that is so important to you - your faith - has been captivated by a new writer or book, wouldn't you want to actually read the thing and fully contemplate its ideas before launching into another overture? To me it's another example of simply "using" something as a commodity, cynically exploiting it, rather than taking the time and energy to fully understand it for its own sake. It's like walking along a road just far enough to see what you 'need' but never bothering to go to the end and possibly be surprised or challenged.

But ok, whatever, he can do that. But then on the documentary of the album when he's starting to become angry with everyone, there's a grotesque scene where he's at his piano and he starts praying with enormous fervour to God to show him how to complete the album (here's an idea - how about you actually read the book you're singing about?). I simply can't fathom the magnitude of ego you must have to actually ask God to help you finish a prog rock album, and to do it with such agony and appeal in your voice. Go to a children's cancer ward, get some damn perspective on how absolutely ridiculous and full of yourself you look and sound right now. At what point did praying for your daily bread (beautiful and humbling) morph into praying for a synth lead (self-absorbed and self-important)?

Stadler (you mentioned him) and I write about similar things, just often from different angles. The common theme is a culture of intellectual laziness, the need for validation, and a massively inflated sense of self-importance. The "search for meaning and belonging" (as you phrased it) is something that connects all people, and it's why throughout history charlatans have come along who offered to fill that longing with crass 'answers'. The Copelands, the Trumps, the Falwells (Stadler will rightly and justifiably offer leftist equivalents). There's an enormous market for it in America and it's getting bigger, not smaller.

The problem is. They have used the bible to justify their man made laws and man made atrocities. They used the bible to justify what they are doing is righteous and the one true faith.

Basically they are now corrupted as all things usually get. And right now, a lot of these are corrupted from the Government to the Church. These manipulators rule the world and use the people for their own advantage.

They manipulated and took advantage of The Natives in Americas good heart and kindness, and justified their actions and treatment by using the bible.

Catholism is a religion that in it's history is based off Conquering and Domination. They use God's words against their fellow men, they use it to control man. That is not what God intended from what I have read. And that each of these stories are parables that show us what happens when a man does this...

And Revelation will only come true when Man corrupts God's teachings, and use it to destroy God's creation itself.
I don't know how they can be so proud of winning with them odds. - Little Big Man

"We can't rewrite history. We can learn our own history, and share it with other people. While, we learn, from them, their history." -Me,Myself,I

Offline El Barto

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #2410 on: April 07, 2021, 09:32:12 AM »
A couple quick takeaways.

Quote
....drawing out primal impulses like fear and hatred and a need to feel a part of something 'huge' and 'special'

There is definitely a sense of people (Americans?) searching for some sense of meaning and belonging, wherever it may be. I know Stadler has spoken of this better than I could.

Quote
...this ego-driven "me, me, me" mentality of self-importantly thanking God for all your privileged bullshit that comes only at the expense of someone else's misfortune

I don't know if privilege is always a result of someone else's misfortune. I do not know if you were speaking specifically (you referenced Neal Morse, who I don't really know anything about) or the "privileged" in general.

To be clear I was talking about the privileged in general. There may be examples of someone's good fortune coming at no cost to someone else (this isn't a strong opinion of mine, I'm ready to be proven wrong) but I can't think of any. Without the 3rd world there can be no first world, the 'developed' world's wealth and high standard of living is based upon the exploitation of poorer nations and people. Before thanking God for whatever crap we have in our lives it'd be useful to first pause and ask how that crap came to be in our lives.   

The broader point though is about the lack of perspective (a symptom of egotism) that comes with this 'distasteful' brand of Christianity, as I called it. To again talk about Morse, he didn't actually read The Pilgrim's Progress by Bunyan when writing Similitude of a Dream. Instead his 'teacher' introduced him to some of the ideas and that was enough, Neal realised he could get another devotional album out of it. I personally find that strange. If something that is so important to you - your faith - has been captivated by a new writer or book, wouldn't you want to actually read the thing and fully contemplate its ideas before launching into another overture? To me it's another example of simply "using" something as a commodity, cynically exploiting it, rather than taking the time and energy to fully understand it for its own sake. It's like walking along a road just far enough to see what you 'need' but never bothering to go to the end and possibly be surprised or challenged.

But ok, whatever, he can do that. But then on the documentary of the album when he's starting to become angry with everyone, there's a grotesque scene where he's at his piano and he starts praying with enormous fervour to God to show him how to complete the album (here's an idea - how about you actually read the book you're singing about?). I simply can't fathom the magnitude of ego you must have to actually ask God to help you finish a prog rock album, and to do it with such agony and appeal in your voice. Go to a children's cancer ward, get some damn perspective on how absolutely ridiculous and full of yourself you look and sound right now. At what point did praying for your daily bread (beautiful and humbling) morph into praying for a synth lead (self-absorbed and self-important)?

Stadler (you mentioned him) and I write about similar things, just often from different angles. The common theme is a culture of intellectual laziness, the need for validation, and a massively inflated sense of self-importance. The "search for meaning and belonging" (as you phrased it) is something that connects all people, and it's why throughout history charlatans have come along who offered to fill that longing with crass 'answers'. The Copelands, the Trumps, the Falwells (Stadler will rightly and justifiably offer leftist equivalents). There's an enormous market for it in America and it's getting bigger, not smaller.

The problem is. They have used the bible to justify their man made laws and man made atrocities. They used the bible to justify what they are doing is righteous and the one true faith.

Basically they are now corrupted as all things usually get. And right now, a lot of these are corrupted from the Government to the Church. These manipulators rule the world and use the people for their own advantage.

They manipulated and took advantage of The Natives in Americas good heart and kindness, and justified their actions and treatment by using the bible.

Catholism is a religion that in it's history is based off Conquering and Domination. They use God's words against their fellow men, they use it to control man. That is not what God intended from what I have read. And that each of these stories are parables that show us what happens when a man does this...

And Revelation will only come true when Man corrupts God's teachings, and use it to destroy God's creation itself.
Aside from the matter of provenance I agree with this. It's the whole point of religion. Where we differ is that where you think this is a perversion of God's will/teaching, I say that it was a man-made construct designed specifically to do what you/Dave/I have been saying all along. It's a creation designed to give us all of these things. The smug superiority. The sense of belonging. The means of controlling others through coercion and intimidation. A way to milk our fellow man for every penny we can squeeze from his palm. A way to absolve ourselves of guilt and justify our misdeeds. A way to condemn others for doing the same. While I would say that it's a masterstroke from humanity, what you suggest is that it's a mindbogglingly massive miscalculation on the part of God (or an act of unmitigated cruelty).
Argument, the presentation of reasonable views, never makes headway against conviction, and conviction takes no part in argument because it knows.
E.F. Benson

Offline jammindude

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #2411 on: April 07, 2021, 09:45:58 AM »
I’m at work, and don’t have the time to share currently. But I did want to chime in quickly to say some great points are being brought up. And DM (I think? The quote pyramid confuses me sometimes) nailed down why I’ve pretty much come to view NM as nearly intolerable. He puts on a pretense of humility while making it all about him.  Pretty much sums up why I feel religion is a snare and a racket...and exactly why I believe what I believe now.
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Than the pride that divides when a colorful rag is unfurled." - Neil Peart

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Offline Ben_Jamin

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #2412 on: April 07, 2021, 10:34:39 AM »
A couple quick takeaways.

Quote
....drawing out primal impulses like fear and hatred and a need to feel a part of something 'huge' and 'special'

There is definitely a sense of people (Americans?) searching for some sense of meaning and belonging, wherever it may be. I know Stadler has spoken of this better than I could.

Quote
...this ego-driven "me, me, me" mentality of self-importantly thanking God for all your privileged bullshit that comes only at the expense of someone else's misfortune

I don't know if privilege is always a result of someone else's misfortune. I do not know if you were speaking specifically (you referenced Neal Morse, who I don't really know anything about) or the "privileged" in general.

To be clear I was talking about the privileged in general. There may be examples of someone's good fortune coming at no cost to someone else (this isn't a strong opinion of mine, I'm ready to be proven wrong) but I can't think of any. Without the 3rd world there can be no first world, the 'developed' world's wealth and high standard of living is based upon the exploitation of poorer nations and people. Before thanking God for whatever crap we have in our lives it'd be useful to first pause and ask how that crap came to be in our lives.   

The broader point though is about the lack of perspective (a symptom of egotism) that comes with this 'distasteful' brand of Christianity, as I called it. To again talk about Morse, he didn't actually read The Pilgrim's Progress by Bunyan when writing Similitude of a Dream. Instead his 'teacher' introduced him to some of the ideas and that was enough, Neal realised he could get another devotional album out of it. I personally find that strange. If something that is so important to you - your faith - has been captivated by a new writer or book, wouldn't you want to actually read the thing and fully contemplate its ideas before launching into another overture? To me it's another example of simply "using" something as a commodity, cynically exploiting it, rather than taking the time and energy to fully understand it for its own sake. It's like walking along a road just far enough to see what you 'need' but never bothering to go to the end and possibly be surprised or challenged.

But ok, whatever, he can do that. But then on the documentary of the album when he's starting to become angry with everyone, there's a grotesque scene where he's at his piano and he starts praying with enormous fervour to God to show him how to complete the album (here's an idea - how about you actually read the book you're singing about?). I simply can't fathom the magnitude of ego you must have to actually ask God to help you finish a prog rock album, and to do it with such agony and appeal in your voice. Go to a children's cancer ward, get some damn perspective on how absolutely ridiculous and full of yourself you look and sound right now. At what point did praying for your daily bread (beautiful and humbling) morph into praying for a synth lead (self-absorbed and self-important)?

Stadler (you mentioned him) and I write about similar things, just often from different angles. The common theme is a culture of intellectual laziness, the need for validation, and a massively inflated sense of self-importance. The "search for meaning and belonging" (as you phrased it) is something that connects all people, and it's why throughout history charlatans have come along who offered to fill that longing with crass 'answers'. The Copelands, the Trumps, the Falwells (Stadler will rightly and justifiably offer leftist equivalents). There's an enormous market for it in America and it's getting bigger, not smaller.

The problem is. They have used the bible to justify their man made laws and man made atrocities. They used the bible to justify what they are doing is righteous and the one true faith.

Basically they are now corrupted as all things usually get. And right now, a lot of these are corrupted from the Government to the Church. These manipulators rule the world and use the people for their own advantage.

They manipulated and took advantage of The Natives in Americas good heart and kindness, and justified their actions and treatment by using the bible.

Catholism is a religion that in it's history is based off Conquering and Domination. They use God's words against their fellow men, they use it to control man. That is not what God intended from what I have read. And that each of these stories are parables that show us what happens when a man does this...

And Revelation will only come true when Man corrupts God's teachings, and use it to destroy God's creation itself.
Aside from the matter of provenance I agree with this. It's the whole point of religion. Where we differ is that where you think this is a perversion of God's will/teaching, I say that it was a man-made construct designed specifically to do what you/Dave/I have been saying all along. It's a creation designed to give us all of these things. The smug superiority. The sense of belonging. The means of controlling others through coercion and intimidation. A way to milk our fellow man for every penny we can squeeze from his palm. A way to absolve ourselves of guilt and justify our misdeeds. A way to condemn others for doing the same. While I would say that it's a masterstroke from humanity, what you suggest is that it's a mindbogglingly massive miscalculation on the part of God (or an act of unmitigated cruelty).

The thing also is...For some reason, The people of this faith, are extremely gullible, and for some reason, were convinced that this way is the only way, and righteous way to live, and all other ways are wrong and stupid, and not "Gods True Plan".

The problem here, is that leads to prejudice and disrespect. Just look at their history and that says it all right there.

And that is not a fault of God, but the fault of Man.

What I see that needs to occur is, The Catholic Faith, needs to do a reassessment. But, all religions need to do this. And where it will lead to is tolerance that not everyone has the same perspective. Catholics and Christians are proven to be intolerant of other religions. In their book, they were told of Pagans and Heathens. Which in turn, were the Indigenous people of the world. Each and every one of them has been forced to assimilate into the Catholic and Christian faith. If they had not done this and were more respectful and tolerant of other beliefs, imagine what would still be here today? That's sad for me to think about at times. It's also why, when they arrived here in "The New World" we saw that they had lost their way or they lost and forgot the knowledge. The circle of life was missing from the cross. The Cross is an upside down sword. It's a sword that is implanted into the ground, and a sword planted into a ground symbolizes dominance, the same way a flag does.


Also, Capitalism is an idea of their own. We never had that in "The New World" we bartered, and mostly everyone knew how to be self-reliant. We natives and Indigenous peoples of the world lived perfectly fine with what we were blessed with and given from the Earth itself. We didn't need more, and more, and more, that is plain Greed. The need for more, whether it's physical or spiritual, is Greed. We were also, in the midst of our own migration exodus. We were fleeing and dealing with our own Corruption, which is what the Mayan and Aztec people were doing, with their Sacrifices, and treatment of the people.

And exactly, It is a man-made construct, that's what I meant also with Corruption of Gods Way. Catholicism and Christianity is not God's True Way, nor was it ever, because of the story of The Tower of Babel. Remember, we all spoke on language, and due to the events of The Tower of Babel, our punishment was us not being able to communicate with one another, and had to form clans based on our tongues, as we couldn't understand each other anymore. Yet, look at it now, we have one language again, where we all can communicate with each other.

For me, The Bible is just a collection of parables from many different places, that show us the punishments and consequences of events that have occurred throughout CATHOLIC/CHRISTIAN people only. The Bible is their perspective. And many other religions and cultures of the world all have their own perspectives to these parables, they just never wrote them down into a Bible, but were passed down orally.

I do believe all these Myths and Folk Creatures did exist in the past. We were not how we are today, and in my view, were more spiritual and our eyes were accustomed to seeing the unseen. But, as time passed on, we forgot how to do this, and in turn, they left us, but not really, we just can't see them anymore. Our spirituality went from being physical, to now a faith based ideology. We had knowledge and powers we can only dream of today, but don't because of the abuse and corruption of those powers and knowledge, so we buried it and left it alone.

It's why people say that due to "WHITE" people cultivating and digging up these things because of Knowledge that they forgot and are trying to find again, that there are these problems we have, because they were problems that were once buried and forgotten and now are released again out into the world, these include sickness, disease, and a myriad of other issues that seem to have escalated. Tell me what other race and culture is actually digging up the old?

For me, living God's True Path, is living in connection with Nature and The Earth. God's True Plan is The Earth and all it's inhabitants, from the smallest organism called bacteria to biggest Mountain.

« Last Edit: April 07, 2021, 10:54:34 AM by Ben_Jamin »
I don't know how they can be so proud of winning with them odds. - Little Big Man

"We can't rewrite history. We can learn our own history, and share it with other people. While, we learn, from them, their history." -Me,Myself,I

Offline Ben_Jamin

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #2413 on: April 07, 2021, 10:49:16 AM »
I’m at work, and don’t have the time to share currently. But I did want to chime in quickly to say some great points are being brought up. And DM (I think? The quote pyramid confuses me sometimes) nailed down why I’ve pretty much come to view NM as nearly intolerable. He puts on a pretense of humility while making it all about him.  Pretty much sums up why I feel religion is a snare and a racket...and exactly why I believe what I believe now.

Like how he is trying to justify why he decided to basically take it upon himself to re-do the album, how he felt it needed to be done, and demand it be done this way. While disregarding the other members views, and even taking out one members contributions. And the result was they had to release both, or else if they had released TBOL only, I am sure it would have left a sour taste in Roines mouth and I don't think he'd want to do another one if that were to have happened, I mean I wouldn't blame him because why do something if your contributions don't matter in the end. And if they were to have released Forevermore, all that work would've been for nothing.

Also, culture plays into this as well. American Culture is not like Swedish culture or British Culture. Roine and Pete, know how American Culture is, yet for some reasons Americans do not see this. Americans think they own the world, and are the best and everyone should accommodate for them. Even when visiting another country. Not many Americans learn about other cultures or other places of the world, and when they go, they end up getting in trouble or becoming a prisoner because they didn't bother to learn about their ways, and this learning of ways and customs is what leads to Respect, Ignorance of a Culture and Customs lead to disrespect, I know this because of how the land is treated all the time. Our mountains were we go to gather things for our culture, and customs, are being disrespected by Americans everyday, all for "Recreation"....It's so bad that they have no choice but to enact rules, just to keep those places from being developed, torn down, and those resources depleted.
I don't know how they can be so proud of winning with them odds. - Little Big Man

"We can't rewrite history. We can learn our own history, and share it with other people. While, we learn, from them, their history." -Me,Myself,I

Offline Ben_Jamin

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #2414 on: April 07, 2021, 12:41:47 PM »
This is a great lecture just posted today:

"Natural Resources and the Legacies of Old Spanish Law in the American West"

https://youtu.be/Y_ycnwoYjsY
I don't know how they can be so proud of winning with them odds. - Little Big Man

"We can't rewrite history. We can learn our own history, and share it with other people. While, we learn, from them, their history." -Me,Myself,I