Author Topic: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man  (Read 213398 times)

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Offline Stadler

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #2310 on: March 23, 2021, 07:43:48 AM »
Right??  Water off a duck's back - for Americans, and the rest of the world watching.  Nary even a mention in Guns are Icky thread.  Sadly, it didn't even phase me, cuz I know it's just another headline moment that will be a flash in the pan for calls of gun-reform, and an event that will fade into oblivion like every other one, and only those directly impacted will remember it in 6 months (weeks?) or so.

EXCEPT FOR THE VICTIMS, who need to be remembered for who they are, is that such a bad thing, though, given that we're not interested in really solving the problem?  WITH THE UNDERSTANDING I WISH TO GOD THIS NEVER HAPPENED, I'd almost rather it fade into oblivion than be inundated with the tired political jockeying and grandstanding.

We have a problem, and it isn't guns; gun ownership by household has remained rather static since the early 70's, over 50 years, even as mass killings have tended to increase over the last 20 years.  Guns are a facilitator, no doubt, but they are a correlation, not a cause. As this article states, "Other countries with similar gun-ownership rates to the US have considerably fewer mass shootings so there is clearly something cultural at play."  Now, you look at these references:  this one and this one then consider that the explosion of social media - and what I've regularly called the crippling mass insecurity of our nation - came about right at the turn of the century and we've got a broader conversation. 

What if limits/controls/restrictions on social media was a path forward to solving our violence issues (as well as a host of other problems in which the United States embarrassingly leads the world)?  Do you think we're capable of tackling that? 

Offline TAC

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #2311 on: March 23, 2021, 07:51:20 AM »
Stads, I'll check out the articles you cited later. I have some stuff to do. But wouldn't you run into the same problems as you do with gun regulations..as in "mah rights" to free speech?
would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
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Online El Barto

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #2312 on: March 23, 2021, 08:49:34 AM »
So is there anything more fucking pointless than the legislative filibuster? Because it's one I nominally agree with I'll make Stadler's point for him. It does serve to create a necessary spirit of bipartisanship. It's somewhat reassuring to know that at least some of the other party agree with a bit of legislation. However, that ship done sailed, caught fire, struck an iceberg, exploded, sank like a brick, and then exploded again at the bottom of the sea. We've had nearly 10 years of a congress with only one goal, which is to promote its own agenda and stall the other side's at all costs, no matter how ridiculous. The filibuster is the primary tool of making that happen. I said I nominally agree with the spirit of bipartisanship, but it's not what America wants, and probably not what it needs. Hell, Biden is doing what he can to not further the divide, and he's being harangued for it from both sides. From the left that wants him to actually promote their agenda, ostensibly his own, and from the right that seems to believe that bipartisanship actually means ignoring your own interests.

The selling point for all of this is actually coming from Mitch "The Grim Reaper" McConnell. Mitch is worried that the spirit of cooperation will be shattered. A spirit that he's sucked up like a legislative vampire. What would actually change? As it stands right now, the Right will block everything it can in the senate, until the republicans take over government in 2024, and then it will pass everything under the sun. Is that a functional democracy?

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I think if they destroy the essence of the Senate, the legislative filibuster, they will find a Senate that will not function. It takes unanimous consent to turn the lights on here,  And I think they would leave an angry 50 senators not interested in being cooperative on even the simplest things.

Gods forbid! I'm sure we'd all hate to see that.  :lol

I suppose that what it comes down to is whether or not we want a congress that can pass anything, or one that can block everything. In principle I might well go with the conservative "let's all pray for gridlock" approach. In practice it doesn't really work that way when only one side is adept at playing the game. One side is getting the best of both, and one side is getting nothing at all. I'd call that the worst of all outcomes.
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Offline Stadler

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #2313 on: March 23, 2021, 09:24:30 AM »
It the slaughter of dozens of 6 and 7-year olds isn't something that can spur a nation and gov't to take action, I don't know what would.
To be fair some politicians have been springing into swift action. 2 hours after the shooting Lauren Boebert sent out a "campaign" (read: fund-raising) e-mail warning her followers that radical leftist Joe Biden is going to take their guns. If I were a betting man I'd lay every penny I own on Lauren Boebert to end the week with the highest fund-raising figures of any congressperson. Either her or whichever Democrat goes the other way and fund-raises off of a vow to ban guns. If you try to imagine it as fiction rather than reality it changes from a miserable tragedy to a fascinating comedy.

And neither one is going to materially change the number of mass killing events in 2021, 2022, 2023, 2024, 2025...

Few things make me angry, politically, but it's angering to me that we're not willing to even TALK about the hard things that need to be done to affect real change.  Oh, but we'll worry about "grabbing pussy" and whether a President fell down on the stairs to the Presidential jet; those are important.  These answers are not to be found in a tweet or a fundraiser or a political party, and we're up a creek without a paddle unless and until we can get past that.

Online El Barto

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #2314 on: March 23, 2021, 09:29:38 AM »
Great news, everybody. The Boulder shooter appears to be a Moslem. That'll give us all something interesting to chat about other than the fact that it happened in the first place. Didn't seem right before now.


edit: Looks like there's also speculation that it started over a mask dispute. Now both sides can lay claim to their own superiority. And isn't that what it's all about?
« Last Edit: March 23, 2021, 09:41:03 AM by El Barto »
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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #2315 on: March 23, 2021, 11:34:05 AM »
Great news, everybody. The Boulder shooter appears to be a Moslem. That'll give us all something interesting to chat about other than the fact that it happened in the first place. Didn't seem right before now.


edit: Looks like there's also speculation that it started over a mask dispute. Now both sides can lay claim to their own superiority. And isn't that what it's all about?

Once I heard his name and that he was born in Syria, I could literally hear the dialog changing.

Didn't know about the mask dispute though, that's an interesting twist. Otherwise, rinse, repeat, and wait another week for the next one.

(we actually have a scare of one here going on in the Napa Valley today, the city of Yountville is on lock down after a nurse at a veterans home, site of a mass shooting in 18,was spotted with a shotgun)

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #2316 on: March 23, 2021, 01:33:44 PM »
So the spa shooter bought his gun the day of, the store shooter bought his a week ago. 18 people dead.

Good to see at least the USA is back to its pre pandemic ways.

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #2317 on: March 23, 2021, 02:53:11 PM »
So what is this 11 of the past 12 shootings were guns legally bought?  Why not just make the process harder to get guns. Any law abiding citizen should be ok with waiting a little extra when purchasing a gun.
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Offline Ben_Jamin

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #2318 on: March 23, 2021, 02:59:49 PM »
So what is this 11 of the past 12 shootings were guns legally bought?  Why not just make the process harder to get guns. Any law abiding citizen should be ok with waiting a little extra when purchasing a gun.

Because of The 2nd amendment in the constitution granting us citizens the right to bear arms.

What they could do is make an amendment to The 2nd Amendment to include the terms of "except high powered assault rifles". But then, you get into the Police and Military possibly being utilized as a power to control the people with their being exempt of that.

I'm all for doing some pretty thorough background checks. At least for Mental Issues, and the ways in which we can get a hint of a persons intent for purchasing the weapon.

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Offline Stadler

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #2319 on: March 23, 2021, 03:37:46 PM »
Stads, I'll check out the articles you cited later. I have some stuff to do. But wouldn't you run into the same problems as you do with gun regulations..as in "mah rights" to free speech?

Depends what you do.  I'm not necessarily calling for bans on social media.  I would also focus not on what someone says, but why they say it.   I'm saying that we have to do a better job of tending to the health of this country.   I'm lucky - I truly am - because I can tend to the health of my being.  Me, my daughter, my wife, my stepson, and my stepdaughter are all in therapy of some form or fashion.  I was the first.  I'm PROUD to say that every one of those people said "wow, it works for my dad/husband/step dad, I'm going to give it a try", and every one of them found it helped them in some way (including in one case to manage deep anger-managment issues and in another to get out of a terribly abusive relationship). 

We're talking here specifically about gun homicides.  In 2018, suicides outnumbered homicides by almost 2 and a half to 1.  TWO AND A HALF.


We know there is a role for insecurity and inadequacy in suicide
.

We know that racism is rooted in inadequacy and insecurity

There is some evidence that, while the motives and rationalizations are complex and varied, the root of terrorism includes a level of inadequacy or insecurity.

And of course we know that social media, in a vicious do-loop, is contributing to our collective loss of self-esteem
.

To me, this is a clear sign; we have several problems that we read about - hell, LIVE - every day, tied to similar feelings, being fed by similar inputs.  I don't say "ban all social media!" but maybe we make mental health a more regular part of our daily well-being.  Maybe instead of "diversity trainings" - shown here and here to NOT WORK - maybe we invest in more widespread intellectual development.   Maybe put a class in high school that introduces kids to the basics of mental health, so that it's not a stigma ("You're in therapy?  Psycho!"; by the way, when I was applying to the bar in the mid-90's, my close friend was scared to list the counseling she got while going through a divorce because we had heard it might be grounds for denial of a law license).

Offline Stadler

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #2320 on: March 23, 2021, 03:46:43 PM »
So what is this 11 of the past 12 shootings were guns legally bought?  Why not just make the process harder to get guns. Any law abiding citizen should be ok with waiting a little extra when purchasing a gun.

Four million guns were bought in January of 2021.  Chalk that up to pandemic and change of leadership concerns.  Let's say it's half that in March.   Out of a million guns bought (half the monthly total, halved again because we're halfway through the month) and two caused a problem.

How certain are we that these are all spur of the moment anger-management issues?   We know they're not (Las Vegas wasn't).   See my other post just north of here; doesn't it make it more important then that we know better what's causing these human beings to want to slaughter fellow humans - sometimes friends, sometimes acquaintances - in cold blood? 

I actually don't have a problem with waiting; I have to wait for a car, I have to wait for a driver's license, I have to wait for any number of things.   But I don't expect it will actually solve the majority of the problem.

Offline Stadler

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #2321 on: March 23, 2021, 03:50:18 PM »
So what is this 11 of the past 12 shootings were guns legally bought?  Why not just make the process harder to get guns. Any law abiding citizen should be ok with waiting a little extra when purchasing a gun.

Because of The 2nd amendment in the constitution granting us citizens the right to bear arms.

What they could do is make an amendment to The 2nd Amendment to include the terms of "except high powered assault rifles". But then, you get into the Police and Military possibly being utilized as a power to control the people with their being exempt of that.

I'm all for doing some pretty thorough background checks. At least for Mental Issues, and the ways in which we can get a hint of a persons intent for purchasing the weapon.

The problem with banning guns and expanding wait periods is that it takes our eyes off the ball.  We pass those laws and we get to watch self-serving politicians pat themselves on the back with how "tough" they are, and how they "stuck it to the NRA" and blah blah blah, and it doesn't get to the heart of the issue.  We then effectively restart the clock on building social will to fix this thing and meanwhile people continue to die.

Offline TAC

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #2322 on: March 23, 2021, 04:00:43 PM »
Stads, I'll check out the articles you cited later. I have some stuff to do. But wouldn't you run into the same problems as you do with gun regulations..as in "mah rights" to free speech?

Depends what you do.  I'm not necessarily calling for bans on social media.  I would also focus not on what someone says, but why they say it. 

I totally get the "health" point.

But back to what kind of action point could you go with social media.

Seems like any measure to "control" guns is met with all kinds of "taking away our rights" verbiage. Seems you'd run into the same problems with "controlling" social media, no?

Like, I have no issue with the right to have guns, but I also support gun registries. I guess I was more interested in what actionable items you were thinking of with regards to social media.
would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
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Offline Ben_Jamin

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #2323 on: March 23, 2021, 04:02:56 PM »
So what is this 11 of the past 12 shootings were guns legally bought?  Why not just make the process harder to get guns. Any law abiding citizen should be ok with waiting a little extra when purchasing a gun.

Four million guns were bought in January of 2021.  Chalk that up to pandemic and change of leadership concerns.  Let's say it's half that in March.   Out of a million guns bought (half the monthly total, halved again because we're halfway through the month) and two caused a problem.

How certain are we that these are all spur of the moment anger-management issues?   We know they're not (Las Vegas wasn't).   See my other post just north of here; doesn't it make it more important then that we know better what's causing these human beings to want to slaughter fellow humans - sometimes friends, sometimes acquaintances - in cold blood? 

I actually don't have a problem with waiting; I have to wait for a car, I have to wait for a driver's license, I have to wait for any number of things.   But I don't expect it will actually solve the majority of the problem.

That makes sense...

And if we incorporate this, we have documentation for when you go buy a gun. A quick look up at the mental history, and maybe even, per doctors orders, can determine whether a person is qualified to have a gun that is capable of shooting off that many rounds in that amount of time. It could be, to where if you are not capable of being responsible for yourself to live on your own due to mental health, you can't own even one gun. It could be based off how severe of a mental illness you have to how powerful of a gun you can acquire, or legally bear.

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Online kingshmegland

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #2324 on: March 23, 2021, 06:28:36 PM »
Ben, it does, it doesn't mean we can't have harder restrictions.  It's  not perfect  but it's something.

On the other side better health care would benefit as well. 

Stads made a point that it won't stop much.  But it will stop more and isn't more better than none?
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Offline Stadler

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #2325 on: March 24, 2021, 09:29:05 AM »
Stads, I'll check out the articles you cited later. I have some stuff to do. But wouldn't you run into the same problems as you do with gun regulations..as in "mah rights" to free speech?

Depends what you do.  I'm not necessarily calling for bans on social media.  I would also focus not on what someone says, but why they say it. 

I totally get the "health" point.

But back to what kind of action point could you go with social media.

Seems like any measure to "control" guns is met with all kinds of "taking away our rights" verbiage. Seems you'd run into the same problems with "controlling" social media, no?

Like, I have no issue with the right to have guns, but I also support gun registries. I guess I was more interested in what actionable items you were thinking of with regards to social media.

Well, I'm not saying to control ANYTHING.   I think we have a general awareness that guns are more than 0 on the dangerous scale.  The restrictions on purchase and ownership (which I for the most part, support) attest to that.   Right now, though, there is no such concern over social media.  There's no "apparent" harm to anyone for posting endless photos of oneself in bikinis (or to be fair, in Speedos) trolling for likes.  It's not what we respond to.   We have to start talking about that, in the same way we talked about violence in video games (since disproven) and the effects of pornography (not disproven). 

We can do this.   We've got people wrapped in pretzels over using the proper (in terms of will, if not in grammar) pronouns for people.   Not a week goes by where an episode of either NCIS or Law And Order, Law And Order: SVU, Law And Order: DTF, FBI, FBI: Most Wanted, FBI: Fingerprint Division, Chicago: Fire, Chicago: Police, Chicago: Deep Dish doesn't have an episode that ends with a public service announcment of some kind.   If we put that kind of effort into education we'd be better off.    And not just in terms of mass shootings.  In terms of suicides, in terms of legal drug dependencies, in terms of illegal drug addictions, in terms of anti-depressant use, in terms of racism and bigotry...   aren't these things we should commit to?

Offline Ben_Jamin

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #2326 on: March 24, 2021, 10:20:11 AM »
I'm with Stads.

A lot of these Mass Shootings are a result of Mental Issues. What makes a person tick and eventually go off and shoot people?

What should be focused on is...what was it that made him do this horrific act?

It wasn't the gun that was all "Do it...Do it..." With a happy cartoon face...It was maybe the leprechaun that told him to "burn it...burn it all" (Simpsons reference)

The focus should be on the Mental Health aspects because that alone can help a person from acting out on thoughts.

No one wants to put in the work or effort to do this. Instead, they'd rather take the easy route and put em away or something more harsher, which only prevents that one person from doing this, while the many others will still continue to do this.
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Offline Stadler

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #2327 on: March 24, 2021, 11:30:29 AM »
Ben, it does, it doesn't mean we can't have harder restrictions.  It's  not perfect  but it's something.

On the other side better health care would benefit as well. 

Stads made a point that it won't stop much.  But it will stop more and isn't more better than none?

Well, if the measures were reasonable, and had SOME benefit, I'm not ruling that out; I can be practical too.  My fear, though, is that the political wins will be enough and it will actually hurt long term because the real measure will never be gotten to.   Look at the ACA; it was flawed from the get-go, and the mantra was "well, it's better than nothing, and we'll fix stuff over time".  Even with a Democrat Congress, nothing got fixed because the big milestone was reached and momentum was lost.

Let's say 100 lives are lost a year to guns.  Incremental gains of 1 per year won't solve the problem in our lifetimes.   Even if we have to wait four or five more years at 100 a pop to get them, improvements of 5, 10, 20, or more and we're ahead of the game by a lot.   I'm worried - with good reason, based on historical evidence - that those 1/year improvements will rule out any bigger more sustainable gain.

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #2328 on: March 24, 2021, 11:37:41 AM »
Ben, it does, it doesn't mean we can't have harder restrictions.  It's  not perfect  but it's something.

On the other side better health care would benefit as well. 

Stads made a point that it won't stop much.  But it will stop more and isn't more better than none?

Well, if the measures were reasonable, and had SOME benefit, I'm not ruling that out; I can be practical too.  My fear, though, is that the political wins will be enough and it will actually hurt long term because the real measure will never be gotten to.   Look at the ACA; it was flawed from the get-go, and the mantra was "well, it's better than nothing, and we'll fix stuff over time".  Even with a Democrat Congress, nothing got fixed because the big milestone was reached and momentum was lost.

Let's say 100 lives are lost a year to guns.  Incremental gains of 1 per year won't solve the problem in our lifetimes.   Even if we have to wait four or five more years at 100 a pop to get them, improvements of 5, 10, 20, or more and we're ahead of the game by a lot.   I'm worried - with good reason, based on historical evidence - that those 1/year improvements will rule out any bigger more sustainable gain.
The problem is that not all gains are quantifiable. We have no idea how many lives may be saved by putting in place reasonable restrictions. The entire point of the exercise is to prevent the things that would be measured. I get your point and I agree with it. Stupid changes for the political wins may well be counterproductive. That doesn't mean that you disregard reasonable precautions.

Besides, the only tangible effect will be wins for the conservatives. Every time there's a shooting with an assault rifle the right and the NRA will roll their eyes and say "told you so." As pilots like to say, there aren't any attaboys for flights that don't end in catastrophe. When something doesn't happen because of a mitigating step you'll only hear crickets.
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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #2329 on: March 24, 2021, 12:06:30 PM »
It's obviously a hard balance.  Still, there needs to be some kind of progress here on both sides.  Stads, you made the point of the Vegas shooter as not buying his guns at the last second.  If we use percentages then those how buy right before using them are high.  Making better restrictions to buy guns is not taking away one's ability to buy one but it could stop someone who emotionally is unstable enough to be pushed over that ledge.  I'm not sure if both sides can agree but both sides should do their due diligence.
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Offline Ben_Jamin

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #2330 on: March 24, 2021, 01:14:50 PM »
It's obviously a hard balance.  Still, there needs to be some kind of progress here on both sides.  Stads, you made the point of the Vegas shooter as not buying his guns at the last second.  If we use percentages then those how buy right before using them are high.  Making better restrictions to buy guns is not taking away one's ability to buy one but it could stop someone who emotionally is unstable enough to be pushed over that ledge.  I'm not sure if both sides can agree but both sides should do their due diligence.

The thing with this is. What if that person has no history of being emotionally unstable. Or they never went and got that help, so there is no history of them being that way. How is one to know this?...

There are situations that occur that can push anyone over the hedge if each situation that happened was worse incrementally over the other. These can stack and reach a boiling point where once it's hit, all hell breaks loose. And if they happen to have a gun, can and likely will just vent it out by shooting wherever and whatever. Some lash out at people verbally, but each person has their own way of acting this out, some more dramatic than others.

This is why I also, get a bit upset, when they decide to kill the suspect, because if they were taken alive. We could then send them into these institutions where they can look at his mentality and see why this person acted out the way they did. They could've also been doing this with Charles Manson, and ask him, why he felt or is acting out in this way. These could very well be past traumas from childhood that manifested into this character and mindset.
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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #2331 on: March 24, 2021, 01:25:55 PM »
That's just one person Ben.   Then that one slips by, what if there are others you can stop?  Why not go through a longer process to help stop some killing?

Also, It's extremely hard to take someone alive in those situations.  People always say shoot the person in the leg.  1st, they are not trained to do that and 2, if you miss you leave the chance for others to be killed.  You are taught to shoot where you will most likely hit the target. A high percentage shit, and that is center mass.
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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #2332 on: March 24, 2021, 01:38:39 PM »
That's just one person Ben.   Then that one slips by, what if there are others you can stop?  Why not go through a longer process to help stop some killing?

Also, It's extremely hard to take someone alive in those situations.  People always say shoot the person in the leg.  1st, they are not trained to do that and 2, if you miss you leave the chance for others to be killed.  You are taught to shoot where you will most likely hit the target. A high percentage shit, and that is center mass.

Yup, I also understand that.

The more I read about this incident and the suspect at hand. It screams Mental Issues.

Again, the focus should be on the Mental Issues and what made this young man of 21 years shoot up a grocery store. What triggered him to lash out and act out on his thoughts and feelings. How was his family life, how was he as a child. These things are really important to understand the situation. They're important to find out the intent.

It's unfortunate that people do die when these people lash out.

It's another issue altogether why these people do not want to get that treatment. Either because of the backlash of being labeled psychotic, the idea of being someone who is uncapable of being left alone, these things are just some the issues of getting to understand Why.

Just because we can implement a Mental Health evaluation law before you purchase a gun, doesn't mean that people will get that Mental Evaluation. And this is where, you get into the 2nd Amendment and the "Right to bear arms" argument of peoples liberty and freedoms.



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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #2333 on: March 24, 2021, 01:49:34 PM »
Of I agree about helping with mental issues 100%.  But to fix a problem is has to be a confluence of ideas.  Not one thing will lesson these incidents.
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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #2334 on: March 24, 2021, 02:27:17 PM »
That's just one person Ben.   Then that one slips by, what if there are others you can stop?  Why not go through a longer process to help stop some killing?

Also, It's extremely hard to take someone alive in those situations.  People always say shoot the person in the leg.  1st, they are not trained to do that and 2, if you miss you leave the chance for others to be killed.  You are taught to shoot where you will most likely hit the target. A high percentage shit, and that is center mass.

Yup, I also understand that.

The more I read about this incident and the suspect at hand. It screams Mental Issues.

Again, the focus should be on the Mental Issues and what made this young man of 21 years shoot up a grocery store. What triggered him to lash out and act out on his thoughts and feelings. How was his family life, how was he as a child. These things are really important to understand the situation. They're important to find out the intent.

It's unfortunate that people do die when these people lash out.

It's another issue altogether why these people do not want to get that treatment. Either because of the backlash of being labeled psychotic, the idea of being someone who is uncapable of being left alone, these things are just some the issues of getting to understand Why.

Just because we can implement a Mental Health evaluation law before you purchase a gun, doesn't mean that people will get that Mental Evaluation. And this is where, you get into the 2nd Amendment and the "Right to bear arms" argument of peoples liberty and freedoms.
In general I agree, but I think you need to differentiate between mental and emotional issues. Mental issue suggests some kind of pathological condition. I think we're going to find that this guy was simply an asshole and a loser; same as the rest of them. And therein lies the problem. Mental issues are easy. You get diagnosed with something and you wind up in a little red "CRAZY" book. Emotional issues are far more difficult to sort out. More importantly, while mental problems only apply to a select few, these emotional issues apply to damn near the entire country at this point. "Solve the mental health problem!" makes for a great poster. You change that poster to read "Americans are assholes and losers!" and you'll find yourself dodging the bullets you seek to prevent. As a society we're great a pointing fingers, but awful at looking within.
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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #2335 on: March 24, 2021, 02:41:30 PM »
That's just one person Ben.   Then that one slips by, what if there are others you can stop?  Why not go through a longer process to help stop some killing?

Also, It's extremely hard to take someone alive in those situations.  People always say shoot the person in the leg.  1st, they are not trained to do that and 2, if you miss you leave the chance for others to be killed.  You are taught to shoot where you will most likely hit the target. A high percentage shit, and that is center mass.

Yup, I also understand that.

The more I read about this incident and the suspect at hand. It screams Mental Issues.

Again, the focus should be on the Mental Issues and what made this young man of 21 years shoot up a grocery store. What triggered him to lash out and act out on his thoughts and feelings. How was his family life, how was he as a child. These things are really important to understand the situation. They're important to find out the intent.

It's unfortunate that people do die when these people lash out.

It's another issue altogether why these people do not want to get that treatment. Either because of the backlash of being labeled psychotic, the idea of being someone who is uncapable of being left alone, these things are just some the issues of getting to understand Why.

Just because we can implement a Mental Health evaluation law before you purchase a gun, doesn't mean that people will get that Mental Evaluation. And this is where, you get into the 2nd Amendment and the "Right to bear arms" argument of peoples liberty and freedoms.
In general I agree, but I think you need to differentiate between mental and emotional issues. Mental issue suggests some kind of pathological condition. I think we're going to find that this guy was simply an asshole and a loser; same as the rest of them. And therein lies the problem. Mental issues are easy. You get diagnosed with something and you wind up in a little red "CRAZY" book. Emotional issues are far more difficult to sort out. More importantly, while mental problems only apply to a select few, these emotional issues apply to damn near the entire country at this point. "Solve the mental health problem!" makes for a great poster. You change that poster to read "Americans are assholes and losers!" and you'll find yourself dodging the bullets you seek to prevent. As a society we're great a pointing fingers, but awful at looking within.

I'm not psychologist but I often lump mental and emotional issues together.  Maybe I need to be better at that, but I still feel like it takes a certain mindset to kill mass innocents that makes me think it's more mental than just emotional. 

In regards to the Atlanta guy, I think he was acting emotionally but I also think from a long period of being emotionally guilty of his sexual activities, he might have become mentally unstable.  I could be completely off here, but to me, it seems these two can be tied together.

Totally agree with the bolded.

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #2336 on: March 24, 2021, 03:02:55 PM »
Ben, it does, it doesn't mean we can't have harder restrictions.  It's  not perfect  but it's something.

On the other side better health care would benefit as well. 

Stads made a point that it won't stop much.  But it will stop more and isn't more better than none?

Well, if the measures were reasonable, and had SOME benefit, I'm not ruling that out; I can be practical too.  My fear, though, is that the political wins will be enough and it will actually hurt long term because the real measure will never be gotten to.   Look at the ACA; it was flawed from the get-go, and the mantra was "well, it's better than nothing, and we'll fix stuff over time".  Even with a Democrat Congress, nothing got fixed because the big milestone was reached and momentum was lost.

Let's say 100 lives are lost a year to guns.  Incremental gains of 1 per year won't solve the problem in our lifetimes.   Even if we have to wait four or five more years at 100 a pop to get them, improvements of 5, 10, 20, or more and we're ahead of the game by a lot.   I'm worried - with good reason, based on historical evidence - that those 1/year improvements will rule out any bigger more sustainable gain.
The problem is that not all gains are quantifiable. We have no idea how many lives may be saved by putting in place reasonable restrictions. The entire point of the exercise is to prevent the things that would be measured. I get your point and I agree with it. Stupid changes for the political wins may well be counterproductive. That doesn't mean that you disregard reasonable precautions.

Besides, the only tangible effect will be wins for the conservatives. Every time there's a shooting with an assault rifle the right and the NRA will roll their eyes and say "told you so." As pilots like to say, there aren't any attaboys for flights that don't end in catastrophe. When something doesn't happen because of a mitigating step you'll only hear crickets.

I don't disagree in theory.  I think the trick is, "where does political win end and reasonable precaution begin"?  Maybe I'm looking at it too tactically, but these events have a pattern.   Guy shoots up a school, and the data comes out: "he has autism"; "his mom didn't lock the gun".  So now the initiative is "back ground checks so we can find those troubled people!" and "gun locks so tyroubled kids can't get to them!" Okay.  Then the next one is some racist fuck shooting up a church, and the data comes out:  "that bought the gun that afternoon"; "he posted racist shit on his Facebook". Okay.  So now the rule is, "you need to wait a day or 15 to buy a gun" and "background checks so we can find those racist assholes!".    But then a sane, normal guy who rents a hotel room and lights up an open air concert, and the data comes out: "he bought 50 guns in multiple states over a period of time" and "he used a bump stock".   Uh, what do we do now?  I got it, outlaw bump stocks!   It's just kicking the can.   The next one is a jealous husband, the next one is a religious freak with a taste for illegal women, the next one is, well we don't know yet.

Some of these aren't STOPPING the next event, they're just changing the parameters.  And each time something is done, it's lauded as a big ol' FUCK YOU to the NRA and counted as a political win.  I get that I sound really cynical here, but Richard Blumenthal (my state Senator and an embarrassment, if you're asking me) was speaking to a committee on gun reform and gave the tired, worn trope: "thoughts and prayers aren't enough".   And for me, these piece-meal stabs at reform - really, stabs at the NRA - are in the category of "thoughts and prayers".   The NRA is not a target because that's the path to ending gun violence, they are a target because the Republican Represenatives/Senators they help put in office vote on OTHER things too, including legislation, justices, and impeachments.   I know two families that lost kids in Sandy Hook; a guy I lived (and worked) with in the 90's lost his niece, and a guy I went to high school with and played hockey with lost his son.  I don't see them enough to do this, and I wouldn't anyway out of respect and simple human compassion, but I'd love to ask them:  do you feel any resentment, any anger at the politicians that parade you and those like you around to garner votes, but have done NOTHING in the name of your children to ACTUALLY solve the problem? 

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #2337 on: March 24, 2021, 03:12:13 PM »
In general I agree, but I think you need to differentiate between mental and emotional issues. Mental issue suggests some kind of pathological condition. I think we're going to find that this guy was simply an asshole and a loser; same as the rest of them. And therein lies the problem. Mental issues are easy. You get diagnosed with something and you wind up in a little red "CRAZY" book. Emotional issues are far more difficult to sort out. More importantly, while mental problems only apply to a select few, these emotional issues apply to damn near the entire country at this point. "Solve the mental health problem!" makes for a great poster. You change that poster to read "Americans are assholes and losers!" and you'll find yourself dodging the bullets you seek to prevent. As a society we're great a pointing fingers, but awful at looking within.


I think I've been pretty clear in differentiating between "mental" and "emotional".  I think it's almost all emotional, frankly, and I think we've got a much bigger problem than just gun violence.  "Road rage" is a thoughtful example to use.  We all get cut off.  Not all of us run the car in front of us off the road.  All of us lose our job/girlfriend/house.  Not all of us shoot up a Stop and Shop as a result. But just because we don't shoot up a S&S, doesn't mean the effects don't have impact. Some of us shoot ourselves.   Some of us eat ourselves into being a burden on society.  Some of us turn to rape, or tune up our wives.  Some turn to illicit drugs. 

At this point, and I mean this sincerely, I'd make this trade:  you give me ten years of funding to research and implement intensive, long-term efforts into improving the emotional capacity of our population, and I'll give you ten years of whatever gun reform programs you want, short of an outright or a functional ban.

My concern is that the mental/emotional is still intangible, and as such is still taboo. 

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #2338 on: March 24, 2021, 03:12:27 PM »
Quote
   I know two families that lost kids in Sandy Hook; a guy I lived (and worked) with in the 90's lost his niece, and a guy I went to high school with and played hockey with lost his son.  I don't see them enough to do this, and I wouldn't anyway out of respect and simple human compassion, but I'd love to ask them:  do you feel any resentment, any anger at the politicians that parade you and those like you around to garner votes, but have done NOTHING in the name of your children to ACTUALLY solve the problem?

I get the vibe you're pushing here, and in a sense agree, but for me it seems every time they unearth this discussion it's immediately met with vitriol and a chorus of 'partisan gun grab' and all that other bullshit. It literally happened yesterday. Now I'm not deluded enough to think that the dems would crush it through unopposed, shit Joe Mansion alone would stop that shit like he fucked it up after Sandy Hook. And at the core, and to your point, it's a political posturing for soundbites, neither side actually cares about enacting any semblance of real reform.

In the end, random mass murders are an accepted part of American society, and nothing effective will ever be done to rectify it. All we can hope is that none of us ever end up in the blast radius.

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #2339 on: March 24, 2021, 03:22:31 PM »
Quote
   I know two families that lost kids in Sandy Hook; a guy I lived (and worked) with in the 90's lost his niece, and a guy I went to high school with and played hockey with lost his son.  I don't see them enough to do this, and I wouldn't anyway out of respect and simple human compassion, but I'd love to ask them:  do you feel any resentment, any anger at the politicians that parade you and those like you around to garner votes, but have done NOTHING in the name of your children to ACTUALLY solve the problem?

I get the vibe you're pushing here, and in a sense agree, but for me it seems every time they unearth this discussion it's immediately met with vitriol and a chorus of 'partisan gun grab' and all that other bullshit. It literally happened yesterday. Now I'm not deluded enough to think that the dems would crush it through unopposed, shit Joe Mansion alone would stop that shit like he fucked it up after Sandy Hook. And at the core, and to your point, it's a political posturing for soundbites, neither side actually cares about enacting any semblance of real reform.

In the end, random mass murders are an accepted part of American society, and nothing effective will ever be done to rectify it. All we can hope is that none of us ever end up in the blast radius.

But my discussion ISN'T a gun grab.  My discussion has nothing to do with guns.  I don't think guns are the problem, frankly.  They're part of it, to be sure, and I've elsewhere conceded that was I king, I would compromise by doing both, but I think the answer lies within us. I think the answer is that which works to systemically improve the self-esteem of this country.   Somewhere in the Guns Are Icky thread (I think) I posted several links that seem to indicate that a plethora of problems we're facing here in the states are from a common cause.  My discussion is "target that common cause".

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #2340 on: March 24, 2021, 03:25:42 PM »
That's just one person Ben.   Then that one slips by, what if there are others you can stop?  Why not go through a longer process to help stop some killing?

Also, It's extremely hard to take someone alive in those situations.  People always say shoot the person in the leg.  1st, they are not trained to do that and 2, if you miss you leave the chance for others to be killed.  You are taught to shoot where you will most likely hit the target. A high percentage shit, and that is center mass.

Yup, I also understand that.

The more I read about this incident and the suspect at hand. It screams Mental Issues.

Again, the focus should be on the Mental Issues and what made this young man of 21 years shoot up a grocery store. What triggered him to lash out and act out on his thoughts and feelings. How was his family life, how was he as a child. These things are really important to understand the situation. They're important to find out the intent.

It's unfortunate that people do die when these people lash out.

It's another issue altogether why these people do not want to get that treatment. Either because of the backlash of being labeled psychotic, the idea of being someone who is uncapable of being left alone, these things are just some the issues of getting to understand Why.

Just because we can implement a Mental Health evaluation law before you purchase a gun, doesn't mean that people will get that Mental Evaluation. And this is where, you get into the 2nd Amendment and the "Right to bear arms" argument of peoples liberty and freedoms.
In general I agree, but I think you need to differentiate between mental and emotional issues. Mental issue suggests some kind of pathological condition. I think we're going to find that this guy was simply an asshole and a loser; same as the rest of them. And therein lies the problem. Mental issues are easy. You get diagnosed with something and you wind up in a little red "CRAZY" book. Emotional issues are far more difficult to sort out. More importantly, while mental problems only apply to a select few, these emotional issues apply to damn near the entire country at this point. "Solve the mental health problem!" makes for a great poster. You change that poster to read "Americans are assholes and losers!" and you'll find yourself dodging the bullets you seek to prevent. As a society we're great a pointing fingers, but awful at looking within.

I'm not psychologist but I often lump mental and emotional issues together.  Maybe I need to be better at that, but I still feel like it takes a certain mindset to kill mass innocents that makes me think it's more mental than just emotional. 

In regards to the Atlanta guy, I think he was acting emotionally but I also think from a long period of being emotionally guilty of his sexual activities, he might have become mentally unstable.  I could be completely off here, but to me, it seems these two can be tied together.

Totally agree with the bolded.
Regard for the lives of others is a matter of values. None of us really have a right to claim a superiority or a certainty in that realm. An excellent case in point is clock tower enthusiast Charles Whitman. He had a very high regard for the lives of others, but because of a brain abnormality was unable to prevent himself from killing 16 fellow human beings. This is a mental problem. There was nothing physically wrong with Harris and Klebold, other than being a pair of raging assholes. Despite the effort of their folks they just didn't place much value on human life. World's full of people like that, and aside from being differently minded, I'm not prepared to say that there's anything inherently wrong with them. They just see things differently than I do.

God Boy in Atlanta, I reckon, has the same difference in values. He probably felt a little more confident in his own because of the whole Yahweh thing, but in the end he had the same religious guilt as millions of other horny Christians, which combined with that moral superiority created catastrophic results. What are you gonna do?
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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #2341 on: March 24, 2021, 04:09:27 PM »
Ben, it does, it doesn't mean we can't have harder restrictions.  It's  not perfect  but it's something.

On the other side better health care would benefit as well. 

Stads made a point that it won't stop much.  But it will stop more and isn't more better than none?

Well, if the measures were reasonable, and had SOME benefit, I'm not ruling that out; I can be practical too.  My fear, though, is that the political wins will be enough and it will actually hurt long term because the real measure will never be gotten to.   Look at the ACA; it was flawed from the get-go, and the mantra was "well, it's better than nothing, and we'll fix stuff over time".  Even with a Democrat Congress, nothing got fixed because the big milestone was reached and momentum was lost.

Let's say 100 lives are lost a year to guns.  Incremental gains of 1 per year won't solve the problem in our lifetimes.   Even if we have to wait four or five more years at 100 a pop to get them, improvements of 5, 10, 20, or more and we're ahead of the game by a lot.   I'm worried - with good reason, based on historical evidence - that those 1/year improvements will rule out any bigger more sustainable gain.
The problem is that not all gains are quantifiable. We have no idea how many lives may be saved by putting in place reasonable restrictions. The entire point of the exercise is to prevent the things that would be measured. I get your point and I agree with it. Stupid changes for the political wins may well be counterproductive. That doesn't mean that you disregard reasonable precautions.

Besides, the only tangible effect will be wins for the conservatives. Every time there's a shooting with an assault rifle the right and the NRA will roll their eyes and say "told you so." As pilots like to say, there aren't any attaboys for flights that don't end in catastrophe. When something doesn't happen because of a mitigating step you'll only hear crickets.

I don't disagree in theory.  I think the trick is, "where does political win end and reasonable precaution begin"?  Maybe I'm looking at it too tactically, but these events have a pattern.   Guy shoots up a school, and the data comes out: "he has autism"; "his mom didn't lock the gun".  So now the initiative is "back ground checks so we can find those troubled people!" and "gun locks so tyroubled kids can't get to them!" Okay.  Then the next one is some racist fuck shooting up a church, and the data comes out:  "that bought the gun that afternoon"; "he posted racist shit on his Facebook". Okay.  So now the rule is, "you need to wait a day or 15 to buy a gun" and "background checks so we can find those racist assholes!".    But then a sane, normal guy who rents a hotel room and lights up an open air concert, and the data comes out: "he bought 50 guns in multiple states over a period of time" and "he used a bump stock".   Uh, what do we do now?  I got it, outlaw bump stocks!   It's just kicking the can.   The next one is a jealous husband, the next one is a religious freak with a taste for illegal women, the next one is, well we don't know yet.

Some of these aren't STOPPING the next event, they're just changing the parameters.  And each time something is done, it's lauded as a big ol' FUCK YOU to the NRA and counted as a political win.  I get that I sound really cynical here, but Richard Blumenthal (my state Senator and an embarrassment, if you're asking me) was speaking to a committee on gun reform and gave the tired, worn trope: "thoughts and prayers aren't enough".   And for me, these piece-meal stabs at reform - really, stabs at the NRA - are in the category of "thoughts and prayers".   The NRA is not a target because that's the path to ending gun violence, they are a target because the Republican Represenatives/Senators they help put in office vote on OTHER things too, including legislation, justices, and impeachments.   I know two families that lost kids in Sandy Hook; a guy I lived (and worked) with in the 90's lost his niece, and a guy I went to high school with and played hockey with lost his son.  I don't see them enough to do this, and I wouldn't anyway out of respect and simple human compassion, but I'd love to ask them:  do you feel any resentment, any anger at the politicians that parade you and those like you around to garner votes, but have done NOTHING in the name of your children to ACTUALLY solve the problem?
There's nothing there I can really argue with you about. I do want to ask, though, do we need to focus so much on the cause and effect of every specific idea we come up with? Can't we just say that it's too easy for any and everybody to go out and buy a gun with little to know oversight, and act on that basis? I know you hate common sense, but I'm not really sure what the better description is for this. Isn't it just common sense to make sure you can't buy and AR15 and 5000 rounds of ammo without somebody, anybody looking to see if you're crazy or homicidal? I don't see why this is something that needs to be examined, then studied, then evaluated, then studied again, and then challenged through 15 different legal cases. We should know who's buying a gun. It just seems painfully obvious to me.

As for your examples, shouldn't we be forcing people to keep their guns away from the kiddos? Especially kiddos with known mental problems? Shouldn't we be banning devices that circumvent already in place bans on prohibited weapons? Do we need to resist every single idea based on the idea of a slippery slope?

Also, the NRA is a target because they own half of our representatives. Republicans are afraid to take a leak in the Capitol head without the NRA's position, and the NRA's position is invariably "No legislation at all, no matter how sensible or innocuous it may be." Their role in this country is to sell more guns, after all.
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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #2342 on: March 24, 2021, 04:13:48 PM »
In general I agree, but I think you need to differentiate between mental and emotional issues. Mental issue suggests some kind of pathological condition. I think we're going to find that this guy was simply an asshole and a loser; same as the rest of them. And therein lies the problem. Mental issues are easy. You get diagnosed with something and you wind up in a little red "CRAZY" book. Emotional issues are far more difficult to sort out. More importantly, while mental problems only apply to a select few, these emotional issues apply to damn near the entire country at this point. "Solve the mental health problem!" makes for a great poster. You change that poster to read "Americans are assholes and losers!" and you'll find yourself dodging the bullets you seek to prevent. As a society we're great a pointing fingers, but awful at looking within.


I think I've been pretty clear in differentiating between "mental" and "emotional".  I think it's almost all emotional, frankly, and I think we've got a much bigger problem than just gun violence.  "Road rage" is a thoughtful example to use.  We all get cut off.  Not all of us run the car in front of us off the road.  All of us lose our job/girlfriend/house.  Not all of us shoot up a Stop and Shop as a result. But just because we don't shoot up a S&S, doesn't mean the effects don't have impact. Some of us shoot ourselves.   Some of us eat ourselves into being a burden on society.  Some of us turn to rape, or tune up our wives.  Some turn to illicit drugs. 

At this point, and I mean this sincerely, I'd make this trade:  you give me ten years of funding to research and implement intensive, long-term efforts into improving the emotional capacity of our population, and I'll give you ten years of whatever gun reform programs you want, short of an outright or a functional ban.

My concern is that the mental/emotional is still intangible, and as such is still taboo. 
In general I agree, but I think you need to differentiate between mental and emotional issues. Mental issue suggests some kind of pathological condition. I think we're going to find that this guy was simply an asshole and a loser; same as the rest of them. And therein lies the problem. Mental issues are easy. You get diagnosed with something and you wind up in a little red "CRAZY" book. Emotional issues are far more difficult to sort out. More importantly, while mental problems only apply to a select few, these emotional issues apply to damn near the entire country at this point. "Solve the mental health problem!" makes for a great poster. You change that poster to read "Americans are assholes and losers!" and you'll find yourself dodging the bullets you seek to prevent. As a society we're great a pointing fingers, but awful at looking within.


I think I've been pretty clear in differentiating between "mental" and "emotional".  I think it's almost all emotional, frankly, and I think we've got a much bigger problem than just gun violence.  "Road rage" is a thoughtful example to use.  We all get cut off.  Not all of us run the car in front of us off the road.  All of us lose our job/girlfriend/house.  Not all of us shoot up a Stop and Shop as a result. But just because we don't shoot up a S&S, doesn't mean the effects don't have impact. Some of us shoot ourselves.   Some of us eat ourselves into being a burden on society.  Some of us turn to rape, or tune up our wives.  Some turn to illicit drugs. 

At this point, and I mean this sincerely, I'd make this trade:  you give me ten years of funding to research and implement intensive, long-term efforts into improving the emotional capacity of our population, and I'll give you ten years of whatever gun reform programs you want, short of an outright or a functional ban.

My concern is that the mental/emotional is still intangible, and as such is still taboo.
Hell, I'll give you that one for free. I fear it'd run into the exact same partisan bullshit as everything else, though. And the truth is that we're not interested in admitting we have a problem. "We're Mericans, dammit!" Blaming others is easier than fixing our own problems.
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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #2343 on: March 24, 2021, 04:36:42 PM »
I'm in on that 10 year plan as well.
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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #2344 on: March 24, 2021, 05:48:55 PM »
Quote
   I know two families that lost kids in Sandy Hook; a guy I lived (and worked) with in the 90's lost his niece, and a guy I went to high school with and played hockey with lost his son.  I don't see them enough to do this, and I wouldn't anyway out of respect and simple human compassion, but I'd love to ask them:  do you feel any resentment, any anger at the politicians that parade you and those like you around to garner votes, but have done NOTHING in the name of your children to ACTUALLY solve the problem?

I get the vibe you're pushing here, and in a sense agree, but for me it seems every time they unearth this discussion it's immediately met with vitriol and a chorus of 'partisan gun grab' and all that other bullshit. It literally happened yesterday. Now I'm not deluded enough to think that the dems would crush it through unopposed, shit Joe Mansion alone would stop that shit like he fucked it up after Sandy Hook. And at the core, and to your point, it's a political posturing for soundbites, neither side actually cares about enacting any semblance of real reform.

In the end, random mass murders are an accepted part of American society, and nothing effective will ever be done to rectify it. All we can hope is that none of us ever end up in the blast radius.

But my discussion ISN'T a gun grab.  My discussion has nothing to do with guns.  I don't think guns are the problem, frankly.  They're part of it, to be sure, and I've elsewhere conceded that was I king, I would compromise by doing both, but I think the answer lies within us. I think the answer is that which works to systemically improve the self-esteem of this country.   Somewhere in the Guns Are Icky thread (I think) I posted several links that seem to indicate that a plethora of problems we're facing here in the states are from a common cause.  My discussion is "target that common cause".

I know....I'm agreeing with you goddammit. I know it's rare, but hey, broken clock is right twice a day. We both agree on universal background checks, shit, 90% of the population does. The only place that isn't reflected is the place that can actually fucking do something about it. I'm also with you on common cause, which to me seem to range from toxic masculine culture, a horrid mental health system and the stigma that goes with it, a horrid health system in general, online bully culture, and yes, an overinflated and completely bizzare infatuation with guns (can't deny our culture has a sad, sad relationship with firearms, it's fucking scary). This is a massive cultural undertaking of which a few regulations won't fix, which really means dick since the 100 people in washington can't even enact those. Enacting something as massive as what our country really needs to heal is so far out of the question it's laughable. So just let it play out. See who dies next. Just saw that a dude in Atl was busted going into a grocery store with guns, who knows what his intent was. Meanwhile....I'm off to go work in a grocery store myself right now. Is my store next? Spin the wheel, let's see where it lands man. The train is off the fucking rails and it's going to take out a ton of lives before it stops.