Author Topic: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man  (Read 124595 times)

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Offline Dave_Manchester

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #1960 on: April 11, 2019, 11:25:48 AM »
He sees the press, free or otherwise, as the 'enemy of the people' when that press attacks him (because like all tinpot dictators he presents himself as an embodiment of 'the people', therefore any attack on him is an attack on 'the people'). But this is the same guy who actively called upon the Internet Research Agency to keep hacking the DNC. So I don't know if sticking it to Assange really fits Trump's modus operandi when it comes to his attacks on information. It's Assange who, in his later career, helped push many of the conspiracy theories that Trump was tweeting out prior to the election.
"As democracy is perfected, the office of President represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their hearts' desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron" - H.L.Mencken, 26th July 1920.

"China has total respect for Donald Trump and for Donald Trump's very very large brain" - American President Donald Trump, September 26th 2018.

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #1961 on: April 11, 2019, 12:52:16 PM »
Well, this is an opportunity to try and make the press criminally liable for things they publish. I think it unlikely to succeed, but any given hour he might be keen to try.

As for now he's feigning complete ignorance. "Wikileaks? What's that?" All he's really said is that he'll leave it to his marvelous attorney general--he's doing such a great job--to sort out what needs to be done. I do see that Russia is calling for him to be judged fairly. That's not gonna happen. It wouldn't surprise me if Putin casually mentions something along the lines of "An intelligent and great president like Donald Trump is smart enough to understand that Julian was unfairly persecuted by the previous administration, and doesn't deserve what's happening to him." I think that would be a slam dunk.
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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #1962 on: April 11, 2019, 01:16:53 PM »
I - very respectfully - think you guys are both giving Trump way too much credit.  I'm bought in to the notion that Trump might have "created" the "Fake News" mantra to basically provide himself the back door out of any story that might actually hurt him.  But I think the nuances of what you both are talking about are well beyond him.  Not his capacity to understand, but his capacity to be interested and engaged. 

I see a lot of speculation (I'm being VERY generous with the use of that word in this context) about Trump wanting a dictatorship, wanting to destroy democracy, wanting to destroy the press, wanting to outlaw abortion, wanting to [fill in the blank], and none of it rings true to me.  He's not a closer.   He's not the fastidious, long-term planner who has an ultimate end-game.  It's the very reason why (and Dave, I think you've written about this before) Putin finds him so valuable and has played him so effectively.   Don't get me wrong, I still think Putin would be a match for him - I still think Putin is the smartest, most cunning leader in power today - but it's so much easier given that Trump has no such long-term machinations in play. 

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #1963 on: April 11, 2019, 01:23:37 PM »
I - very respectfully - think you guys are both giving Trump way too much credit.  I'm bought in to the notion that Trump might have "created" the "Fake News" mantra to basically provide himself the back door out of any story that might actually hurt him.  But I think the nuances of what you both are talking about are well beyond him.  Not his capacity to understand, but his capacity to be interested and engaged. 

I see a lot of speculation (I'm being VERY generous with the use of that word in this context) about Trump wanting a dictatorship, wanting to destroy democracy, wanting to destroy the press, wanting to outlaw abortion, wanting to [fill in the blank], and none of it rings true to me.  He's not a closer.   He's not the fastidious, long-term planner who has an ultimate end-game.  It's the very reason why (and Dave, I think you've written about this before) Putin finds him so valuable and has played him so effectively.   Don't get me wrong, I still think Putin would be a match for him - I still think Putin is the smartest, most cunning leader in power today - but it's so much easier given that Trump has no such long-term machinations in play.
I don't really disagree with your take, but I think that once he hears and idea he likes he latches onto it as something of vital import. He might not be thinking long-term about destroying the press or rewarding Assange for the Hillary thing. Yet. Let's wait and see what ideas get spoonfed to him. Both will probably get some play. I find the odds of him staying out of this thing completely to be very low.

And let me ask you, do you think Trump understands the difference between a democracy and a monarchy? You think he cares? I call him the boy king for a reason, and it's evident in his frustrations about stupid judges and that dumb constitution preventing him from doing all that he wants to do.
Argument, the presentation of reasonable views, never makes headway against conviction, and conviction takes no part in argument because it knows.
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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #1964 on: April 11, 2019, 01:44:19 PM »
"Understand" in the sense of can (in his own, twisted, inarticulate way) articulate the general premise of "democracy" versus a "monarchy"?  Sure.  Does he care?  Not a whit.  Not one bit. 

I agree your assessment of his frustration, but I honestly do not think he thinks of it in that way.  His is a more... visceral approach to things.  This is why you see things like "catch and kill", and the non-disclosure agreements, and why the lawyers you see swirling around the ancillary players are called "fixers" (Cohen) and are being indicted for fraud and whatnot (Avenatti).  We're not talking about a very cerebral look at these issues.   

Offline Adami

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #1965 on: April 23, 2019, 10:47:25 AM »
So I saw something about Bernie saying prisoners (even in prison) should be able to vote.

So, since I'm not a legal guy, I am wondering why prisoners aren't able to vote (not the mechanism, but the rationale behind it) and whether or not you guys think they should be able to vote, and again, the rationale behind it?

I think they should be able to vote because I honestly don't see a reason why they shouldn't.

After reading some of the comments to Bernie saying this, it's mostly just people saying that they lose their rights, and that's it. I guess I don't get why.
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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #1966 on: April 23, 2019, 11:03:35 AM »
I guess someone serving life I can understand, they aren't going to have any meaningful impact and they kind of gave up their rights to a normal life by committing a crime to lead them to life behind bars so they probably shouldn't have a vote.  I don't know the laws, but folks behind bars who are coming out will be impacted by the elected officials and maybe they should be able to keep their right to vote.  I don't personally find it a big deal though, I'm not losing sleep because of this.

Offline Cool Chris

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #1967 on: April 23, 2019, 11:12:03 AM »
It's come up in our state, and as someone who has a misdemeanor record, it hasn't affected me. But I feel you shouldn't "lose" your right to vote for having a criminal record.
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Online RuRoRul

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #1968 on: April 23, 2019, 11:46:06 AM »
I think that someone shouldn't lose their right to vote for being convicted and should be able to vote once they get out of prison. People who are in prison being able to vote though is a more interesting one, my instinct would have been no but it's worth thinking about why, what's the difference logically. Obviously there's the visceral "they committed a crime so fuck them" reason and I can understand that line of thought but I think we'd agree it's not necessarily based on sound reasoning if you can't explain why.

If someone goes to prison, roughly speaking it serves three purposes (in theory): punishment for their crime, separation from the rest of society, and rehabilitation. Now punishment, it's a bit of a sticky one since I think it's questionable how useful it actually is to focus on punishment, but you could obviously file not being able to vote as part of the punishment and be done with it. But that's just back to "they committed a crime so fuck them" reasoning so I'd look for something better than that. The better reason I can see is the idea of separation from society - if someone is sent to prison it's in part so they aren't free to cause harm to anyone else. They can't be trusted to walk down the street, go to the shop, or generally be around the law abiding populace of society - so should they be trusted to decide who is in charge of governing or making laws for society? And I'm not talking about knowing someone's mind, and I know that on a case by case basis there are plenty of people in prison who are as capable as most people of exercising judgement about who to vote for. But if you follow the logic of the fact that someone is in prison and hence the system has determined that they should not be allowed the freedom to interact with the general populaton, you could make the case that extends to the freedom to partake in decisions of the people.

Then there's the idea of rehabilitation - I am well aware that it's very dubious how effective prison is at this, but as I understand it the idea is that someone would not be released from prison (ending their separation from society) unless they were deemed safe and trustworthy (enough) to go back to interacting with general society. So it could be argued that until their rehabilitation is complete then they shouldn't be participating in societal decision making.

I'm not saying I necessarily agree, I know that there are arguments to be made for prisoners having the right to vote as well, but I think the best argument against it would go something like above.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2019, 11:53:27 AM by RuRoRul »

Online El Barto

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #1969 on: April 23, 2019, 11:57:44 AM »
The traditional argument, one which I happen to agree with, is that prisoners maintain a valid interest in their representation based on circumstances uniquely related to their incarceration. If one candidate is pushing for humane prison conditions and the other is for less air conditioning and more ass raping, the prisoners, still citizens, have more at stake and are more knowledgeable than those of us looking in from the outside.
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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #1970 on: April 23, 2019, 02:40:19 PM »
That's the argument for the vote.  The argument against the vote is something along the lines of, if you can't find fit to adhere to the law, then you shouldn't have the privilege of selecting those that directly make the law (at least with regards to legislature) interpret the law (as regards the judicial branch) or enforce the law (as regards executives).

Astoundingly, perhaps, to some, I am indifferent on this question.  I see both sides of the issue, and have a stake in both as well. Gun to head, I'd probably say "No while incarcerated, but once your sentence and probation are complete, vote to your hearts content!"

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #1971 on: April 23, 2019, 02:50:17 PM »
That's the argument for the vote.  The argument against the vote is something along the lines of, if you can't find fit to adhere to the law, then you shouldn't have the privilege of selecting those that directly make the law (at least with regards to legislature) interpret the law (as regards the judicial branch) or enforce the law (as regards executives).

Astoundingly, perhaps, to some, I am indifferent on this question.  I see both sides of the issue, and have a stake in both as well. Gun to head, I'd probably say "No while incarcerated, but once your sentence and probation are complete, vote to your hearts content!"
Doesn't that essentially reduce the rationale down to spite, though? I'd also point out that while they might not have been concerned about the law going in, they have no choice but to deal with it now, as well as when they get out.

As a side note, I'm not real comfortable with the "privilege" aspect. The Constitution made it a right. The Rhenquist court [I think] made it a privilege.
Argument, the presentation of reasonable views, never makes headway against conviction, and conviction takes no part in argument because it knows.
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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #1972 on: April 24, 2019, 07:19:23 AM »
It's interesting, because I put a lot of thought (relatively, anyway) into the word "privilege".  I would prefer it be a right; how can you have a government of the people by the people and for the people if the basic tool for expression in that government isn't even a right?   But even rights can be restricted in cases where the state has a compelling interest (and no other way of addressing it); is this a matter where there is a compelling state interest?   

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #1973 on: April 24, 2019, 09:20:16 AM »
It's interesting, because I put a lot of thought (relatively, anyway) into the word "privilege".  I would prefer it be a right; how can you have a government of the people by the people and for the people if the basic tool for expression in that government isn't even a right?   But even rights can be restricted in cases where the state has a compelling interest (and no other way of addressing it); is this a matter where there is a compelling state interest?   
I came up with one, but while typing out an explanation I decided that it was bogus. So, no. Outside of spite I don't see a compelling state interest. However, if we are to approach it from the strict scrutiny standpoint, disenfranchisement at this level is about as narrowly tailored as a sledgehammer.
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Offline Dave_Manchester

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #1974 on: April 27, 2019, 05:53:26 AM »
President Trump's fap material -

https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-asia-pacific-48069923/north-koreans-discuss-kim-jong-un-s-trip-to-russia

You know it really wouldn't kill you Yanks to show him some appreciation like this.
"As democracy is perfected, the office of President represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their hearts' desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron" - H.L.Mencken, 26th July 1920.

"China has total respect for Donald Trump and for Donald Trump's very very large brain" - American President Donald Trump, September 26th 2018.

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #1975 on: April 27, 2019, 06:24:20 AM »
President Trump's fap material -

https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-asia-pacific-48069923/north-koreans-discuss-kim-jong-un-s-trip-to-russia

You know it really wouldn't kill you Yanks to show him some appreciation like this.

That was...disturbing, to say the least.

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #1976 on: April 29, 2019, 09:00:04 AM »
President Trump's fap material -

https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-asia-pacific-48069923/north-koreans-discuss-kim-jong-un-s-trip-to-russia

You know it really wouldn't kill you Yanks to show him some appreciation like this.

"My heart is flooded with longing for our leader."

I could get used to that.  I'm going to start a cult. 

Offline Dave_Manchester

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #1977 on: May 26, 2019, 08:21:02 AM »
Very harrowing documentary about sexual abuse in the Catholic Church that's been doing the rounds on the news sites (it was a front page story on CNN today, which is how I came across it). If you're pressed for time, skip to the 6 minute mark (and switch on the subtitles if your Polish is rusty). It's a confrontation between a woman and the priest who abused her 30 years before.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BrUvQ3W3nV4

Not easy to watch, and to me it throws up a lot of difficult questions about forgiveness. Some thoughts that came to me watching this - assuming the priest truly feels guilt, then what could he possibly say in this situation? Does he feel guilt (what did he mean by asking her why she didn't come to him earlier, was he suggesting he'd have paid her money to keep quiet)? If he felt guilt before she visited him, did anything change for him after she left? If, as he says in the beginning (before he knows what's coming), he remembered her, then why is he so jovial? If guilt has been gnawing away at him for decades, why the act?

And the woman. What is there to say? I can't imagine how difficult this must have been for her to do. At the end she weeps as much for the other children he admitted to abusing as she does for herself, which is such an amazing contrast between the empathy of the victim and the egotism of the abuser.
"As democracy is perfected, the office of President represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their hearts' desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron" - H.L.Mencken, 26th July 1920.

"China has total respect for Donald Trump and for Donald Trump's very very large brain" - American President Donald Trump, September 26th 2018.

Offline Dave_Manchester

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #1978 on: June 19, 2019, 03:52:43 PM »
Re: Adami's post in the Free Speech thread about Israeli settlements (didn't want to derail it):

By far my favourite story of this week has been Netanyahu showing exceptional understanding of how to nurse Donald Trump's ego and wrangle favours out of him by promising him a town named after him in the Golan Heights:

https://edition.cnn.com/2019/06/17/politics/trump-heights-golan-settlement-us-israel-scli-intl/index.html

The huge gold sign with Trump's name on it was such a fantastic touch. I can't help thinking though that if Bibi had renamed Jerusalem after him and stuck a solid gold 'TRUMP sign on top of the Wailing Wall, Trump would have nuked Iran for him. Maybe next time?
"As democracy is perfected, the office of President represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their hearts' desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron" - H.L.Mencken, 26th July 1920.

"China has total respect for Donald Trump and for Donald Trump's very very large brain" - American President Donald Trump, September 26th 2018.

Offline Adami

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #1979 on: June 19, 2019, 03:53:45 PM »
I am not a fan of Bibi at all..........at all.........but the man knows how to stay in power. He's no idiot.
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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #1980 on: June 19, 2019, 04:42:47 PM »
It actually accomplishes two things. Obviously it fellates Trump's ego. It also puts a big, bright bullseye on the map. I can only imagine Trump Town just became one of the most popular targets there is in that neck of the woods. For a country that prefers to have a pretense of self-defense to justify its aggression, this can only help. Not to mention the reaction from Grabby if somebody actually manages to land a bomb of some sorts there.
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