Author Topic: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man  (Read 98982 times)

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Offline gmillerdrake

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #1680 on: July 07, 2018, 04:11:50 PM »
Carry it on you.

So like, if you go to the grocery store, or to go buy the new DT CD, you have a gun on you for that? Why is that? Are you afraid you're going to be attacked?

Afraid? No. Prepared for the instance someone decides to shoot up the grocery or CD store Iím at.....yes.

Itís not about Ďfearí. Itís about being able to protect myself in the off chance I NEED to. Iím not leaving my safety or the safety of my family up to someone else. I see it as my responsibility to my wife and children to be able to protect and defend them if need be.

Even if Iím out on my own itís still a matter of not leaving my kids fatherless or widowing my wife because I didnít have a gun on me when the next wack job decides he/she is going to shoot up someplace.

At this point Iíve been conceal carrying for 10 years. Having my gun on me is like wearing a watch. Itís just always there.
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Offline TAC

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #1681 on: July 07, 2018, 06:24:34 PM »
Cool.  No further questions.
would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
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Offline El Barto

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #1682 on: July 10, 2018, 09:04:32 AM »
I don't want to trample all over Katt's thread so I've continued up here something that intrigues me.

I respect someone who is willing to die for the country even if they are just a clerk or some non front line position.
Why? I suppose it's going to come down to how a person conceptualizes "country," but to me it's simply a construct, and one that doesn't in any way reflect my own values. To write such a blank check seems odd to me. I wouldn't respect somebody who gave up their life for a Honda Civic, and from my perspective that has more meaning and value. If you want to frame it as dying for freedom or something then I could understand that, but I'd say you're barking up the wrong tree in the wrong forest in the wrong country, so even that's pretty questionable in my book
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Offline cramx3

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #1683 on: July 10, 2018, 09:14:58 AM »
Well if you value a Honda Civic more than the idea of the country (the USA in this example) than I am not sure what I can say to explain myself.  And thats coming from someone who sole vehicle is a Civic.

Offline El Barto

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #1684 on: July 10, 2018, 09:17:23 AM »
Well if you value a Honda Civic more than the idea of the country (the USA in this example) than I am not sure what I can say to explain myself.  And thats coming from someone who sole vehicle is a Civic.
Like you said, it's an idea. What does this idea actually do to/for you? I'm not trying to rag on you or put you on the spot, but this is something that I really can't wrap my head around.
Argument, the presentation of reasonable views, never makes headway against conviction, and conviction takes no part in argument because it knows.
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Offline cramx3

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #1685 on: July 10, 2018, 09:25:15 AM »
Well if you value a Honda Civic more than the idea of the country (the USA in this example) than I am not sure what I can say to explain myself.  And thats coming from someone who sole vehicle is a Civic.
Like you said, it's an idea. What does this idea actually do to/for you? I'm not trying to rag on you or put you on the spot, but this is something that I really can't wrap my head around.

It allows me to express my opinion freely on this board without repercussion.  It allows me to feel safe for almost every second of my life.  It allows me to pursue my interests and live my life to the most possible free way that I can think of without being shunned from society.  It's not perfect, and it sometimes is terrible, but we don't live in a perfect world and I'd rather protect the freedoms and the idea of the United States than let it just go without protection.  And the fact that I am not willing to die for that cause makes me respect those who do much more.

Offline Stadler

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #1686 on: July 10, 2018, 09:48:06 AM »
I don't know; I agree with Cram, but I'm reluctant to express why because it's so subjective, and so dependent on what one specific person values.   I also had my ass handed to me (rightfully, I'll grant you) for not being able to articulate that acceptably at least once before.   

I do believe that I would not be here today if it wasn't for this country.  Can't prove that. But all eight of my great grandparents got out of Dodge before the shit really hit the fan, and there's at least some evidence that their continued existence may not have been a given had they not.  I largely come from the southern half of Poland, and what is now called "Slovakia", with some spillover into what is now the Czech Republic, the Ukraine, and eastern Austria.  Particularly the Polish/Slovakia area (in some cases the villages are in different countries but are only 10 to 20 km apart) these areas sustained significant devastation during the two World Wars fought in the first half of the 20th century.   Granted they could have gone to any of 20 different countries, but though they spoke little English, they came over and were able to make a go of it, and while there are no Presidents or Senators in my line, we're no dummies and we have been able to translate blue collar hard work into something of substance. 

I believe that ALL Americans should do some service, to the extent of their capacity.   Whether it's a year of civil service, or a career in the military, we should all be giving something back.   To the extent that this means "country" then so be it; but I think it's just as valid to call that a sacrifice as part of the social contract.  I'm not a terribly "jingo-istic" guy - I have no flags at my house, I don't wear a lot of "USA!" clothing with the exception of a few sports pieces that I'm not sure I even own anymore.   But there is an idea underlying that that is of some merit. 

Offline cramx3

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #1687 on: July 10, 2018, 09:55:23 AM »
I believe that ALL Americans should do some service, to the extent of their capacity.   Whether it's a year of civil service, or a career in the military, we should all be giving something back.   To the extent that this means "country" then so be it; but I think it's just as valid to call that a sacrifice as part of the social contract.  I'm not a terribly "jingo-istic" guy - I have no flags at my house, I don't wear a lot of "USA!" clothing with the exception of a few sports pieces that I'm not sure I even own anymore.   But there is an idea underlying that that is of some merit.

And the first part of this is why also why I respect those who join the military.  I have no desire to do it, I am not the most physically gifted and I don't want to be forced into something or pigeonholed.  The fact we have enough people who join on their own will means I am not forced to.  Maybe this goes back to my childhood and my parents scaring the shit out of me of the idea of being drafted.  I can see some merit of everyone doing service, but that's what's great about this country, we aren't forced to be patriotic.  I'll also add that I don't have a flag or anything about me that would make me come off as some patriot other than my opinions that I mostly keep to myself besides discussions here although I don't think that should mean anything even if I did.

Offline Stadler

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #1688 on: July 10, 2018, 10:05:51 AM »
I believe that ALL Americans should do some service, to the extent of their capacity.   Whether it's a year of civil service, or a career in the military, we should all be giving something back.   To the extent that this means "country" then so be it; but I think it's just as valid to call that a sacrifice as part of the social contract.  I'm not a terribly "jingo-istic" guy - I have no flags at my house, I don't wear a lot of "USA!" clothing with the exception of a few sports pieces that I'm not sure I even own anymore.   But there is an idea underlying that that is of some merit.

And the first part of this is why also why I respect those who join the military.  I have no desire to do it, I am not the most physically gifted and I don't want to be forced into something or pigeonholed.  The fact we have enough people who join on their own will means I am not forced to.  Maybe this goes back to my childhood and my parents scaring the shit out of me of the idea of being drafted.  I can see some merit of everyone doing service, but that's what's great about this country, we aren't forced to be patriotic.  I'll also add that I don't have a flag or anything about me that would make me come off as some patriot other than my opinions that I mostly keep to myself besides discussions here although I don't think that should mean anything even if I did.

But we do what we can, how we can.   Part of me being a lawyer started out that way.  I can't serve a branch of the military (when I finally understood how important it was I was too old to participate, even though I tried) but I can serve in other ways.  I can support those who do serve, in small ways and in larger ways.   

Offline El Barto

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #1689 on: July 10, 2018, 11:07:21 AM »
For myself, I just don't equate these things with "America." We have plenty of freedoms. More than some and less than other. I just don't get nationalism, particularly to the extent that people would die for it. Stadler refers to a social contract, and I guess I find that more agreeable.

However, I'm not just speaking of America. A ton of the Slovakians that Stadler referred to no doubt feel the same way that Cram does. People from those shithole countries would undoubtedly die for a government that oppresses them, out of the same misguided since of nationalism. I just don't get this.
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Offline cramx3

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #1690 on: July 10, 2018, 11:19:48 AM »
But do you need to understand it?  I don't.  That's why I don't want to join the military.  I don't want to die for the country.  I am one very selfish person.  However, I know that those who have died for the country, have allowed me to live my life the way I do and I respect that, a lot, even if I don't understand why that person felt it was important to them to join the military.  It's not really my concern why someone decides to join, but I a happy someone else agreed to do the job that I don't want to.

Offline Stadler

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #1691 on: July 10, 2018, 11:20:45 AM »
For myself, I just don't equate these things with "America." We have plenty of freedoms. More than some and less than other. I just don't get nationalism, particularly to the extent that people would die for it. Stadler refers to a social contract, and I guess I find that more agreeable.

However, I'm not just speaking of America. A ton of the Slovakians that Stadler referred to no doubt feel the same way that Cram does. People from those shithole countries would undoubtedly die for a government that oppresses them, out of the same misguided since of nationalism. I just don't get this.

But what does it matter?   Do you believe that we could disband the military tomorrow and still maintain our country as it currently is (or, hopefully, better than it is)?   If not, then what does it matter WHY someone will do what they do?    John Petrucci joined a band to further his art.  Mike joined a band to be boss.  Gene Simmons joined a band to bang chicks.    Neil Young joined a band to make political statements.   Jerry Garcia joined a band to get free weed.   Does one person's rationalization matter to the bigger picture IF we agree that the bigger picture is where we need to be?   

My brother is a cop; he implicitly agreed to put his life on the line for his job.   I've never asked him, but I know him well enough that it has nothing to do with "nation" or "country".  I'm not sure it has to do with any pure essence of "right" and "wrong", either.   I think past a certain point ("I'm a cop to steal free drugs from raids!") it doesn't matter that all members of the group share the same incentive.