Author Topic: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man  (Read 108484 times)

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Offline gmillerdrake

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #1680 on: July 07, 2018, 04:11:50 PM »
Carry it on you.

So like, if you go to the grocery store, or to go buy the new DT CD, you have a gun on you for that? Why is that? Are you afraid you're going to be attacked?

Afraid? No. Prepared for the instance someone decides to shoot up the grocery or CD store Iím at.....yes.

Itís not about Ďfearí. Itís about being able to protect myself in the off chance I NEED to. Iím not leaving my safety or the safety of my family up to someone else. I see it as my responsibility to my wife and children to be able to protect and defend them if need be.

Even if Iím out on my own itís still a matter of not leaving my kids fatherless or widowing my wife because I didnít have a gun on me when the next wack job decides he/she is going to shoot up someplace.

At this point Iíve been conceal carrying for 10 years. Having my gun on me is like wearing a watch. Itís just always there.
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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #1681 on: July 07, 2018, 06:24:34 PM »
Cool.  No further questions.
would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
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Offline El Barto

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #1682 on: July 10, 2018, 09:04:32 AM »
I don't want to trample all over Katt's thread so I've continued up here something that intrigues me.

I respect someone who is willing to die for the country even if they are just a clerk or some non front line position.
Why? I suppose it's going to come down to how a person conceptualizes "country," but to me it's simply a construct, and one that doesn't in any way reflect my own values. To write such a blank check seems odd to me. I wouldn't respect somebody who gave up their life for a Honda Civic, and from my perspective that has more meaning and value. If you want to frame it as dying for freedom or something then I could understand that, but I'd say you're barking up the wrong tree in the wrong forest in the wrong country, so even that's pretty questionable in my book
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Offline cramx3

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #1683 on: July 10, 2018, 09:14:58 AM »
Well if you value a Honda Civic more than the idea of the country (the USA in this example) than I am not sure what I can say to explain myself.  And thats coming from someone who sole vehicle is a Civic.

Offline El Barto

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #1684 on: July 10, 2018, 09:17:23 AM »
Well if you value a Honda Civic more than the idea of the country (the USA in this example) than I am not sure what I can say to explain myself.  And thats coming from someone who sole vehicle is a Civic.
Like you said, it's an idea. What does this idea actually do to/for you? I'm not trying to rag on you or put you on the spot, but this is something that I really can't wrap my head around.
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Offline cramx3

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #1685 on: July 10, 2018, 09:25:15 AM »
Well if you value a Honda Civic more than the idea of the country (the USA in this example) than I am not sure what I can say to explain myself.  And thats coming from someone who sole vehicle is a Civic.
Like you said, it's an idea. What does this idea actually do to/for you? I'm not trying to rag on you or put you on the spot, but this is something that I really can't wrap my head around.

It allows me to express my opinion freely on this board without repercussion.  It allows me to feel safe for almost every second of my life.  It allows me to pursue my interests and live my life to the most possible free way that I can think of without being shunned from society.  It's not perfect, and it sometimes is terrible, but we don't live in a perfect world and I'd rather protect the freedoms and the idea of the United States than let it just go without protection.  And the fact that I am not willing to die for that cause makes me respect those who do much more.

Offline Stadler

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #1686 on: July 10, 2018, 09:48:06 AM »
I don't know; I agree with Cram, but I'm reluctant to express why because it's so subjective, and so dependent on what one specific person values.   I also had my ass handed to me (rightfully, I'll grant you) for not being able to articulate that acceptably at least once before.   

I do believe that I would not be here today if it wasn't for this country.  Can't prove that. But all eight of my great grandparents got out of Dodge before the shit really hit the fan, and there's at least some evidence that their continued existence may not have been a given had they not.  I largely come from the southern half of Poland, and what is now called "Slovakia", with some spillover into what is now the Czech Republic, the Ukraine, and eastern Austria.  Particularly the Polish/Slovakia area (in some cases the villages are in different countries but are only 10 to 20 km apart) these areas sustained significant devastation during the two World Wars fought in the first half of the 20th century.   Granted they could have gone to any of 20 different countries, but though they spoke little English, they came over and were able to make a go of it, and while there are no Presidents or Senators in my line, we're no dummies and we have been able to translate blue collar hard work into something of substance. 

I believe that ALL Americans should do some service, to the extent of their capacity.   Whether it's a year of civil service, or a career in the military, we should all be giving something back.   To the extent that this means "country" then so be it; but I think it's just as valid to call that a sacrifice as part of the social contract.  I'm not a terribly "jingo-istic" guy - I have no flags at my house, I don't wear a lot of "USA!" clothing with the exception of a few sports pieces that I'm not sure I even own anymore.   But there is an idea underlying that that is of some merit. 

Offline cramx3

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #1687 on: July 10, 2018, 09:55:23 AM »
I believe that ALL Americans should do some service, to the extent of their capacity.   Whether it's a year of civil service, or a career in the military, we should all be giving something back.   To the extent that this means "country" then so be it; but I think it's just as valid to call that a sacrifice as part of the social contract.  I'm not a terribly "jingo-istic" guy - I have no flags at my house, I don't wear a lot of "USA!" clothing with the exception of a few sports pieces that I'm not sure I even own anymore.   But there is an idea underlying that that is of some merit.

And the first part of this is why also why I respect those who join the military.  I have no desire to do it, I am not the most physically gifted and I don't want to be forced into something or pigeonholed.  The fact we have enough people who join on their own will means I am not forced to.  Maybe this goes back to my childhood and my parents scaring the shit out of me of the idea of being drafted.  I can see some merit of everyone doing service, but that's what's great about this country, we aren't forced to be patriotic.  I'll also add that I don't have a flag or anything about me that would make me come off as some patriot other than my opinions that I mostly keep to myself besides discussions here although I don't think that should mean anything even if I did.

Offline Stadler

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #1688 on: July 10, 2018, 10:05:51 AM »
I believe that ALL Americans should do some service, to the extent of their capacity.   Whether it's a year of civil service, or a career in the military, we should all be giving something back.   To the extent that this means "country" then so be it; but I think it's just as valid to call that a sacrifice as part of the social contract.  I'm not a terribly "jingo-istic" guy - I have no flags at my house, I don't wear a lot of "USA!" clothing with the exception of a few sports pieces that I'm not sure I even own anymore.   But there is an idea underlying that that is of some merit.

And the first part of this is why also why I respect those who join the military.  I have no desire to do it, I am not the most physically gifted and I don't want to be forced into something or pigeonholed.  The fact we have enough people who join on their own will means I am not forced to.  Maybe this goes back to my childhood and my parents scaring the shit out of me of the idea of being drafted.  I can see some merit of everyone doing service, but that's what's great about this country, we aren't forced to be patriotic.  I'll also add that I don't have a flag or anything about me that would make me come off as some patriot other than my opinions that I mostly keep to myself besides discussions here although I don't think that should mean anything even if I did.

But we do what we can, how we can.   Part of me being a lawyer started out that way.  I can't serve a branch of the military (when I finally understood how important it was I was too old to participate, even though I tried) but I can serve in other ways.  I can support those who do serve, in small ways and in larger ways.   

Offline El Barto

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #1689 on: July 10, 2018, 11:07:21 AM »
For myself, I just don't equate these things with "America." We have plenty of freedoms. More than some and less than other. I just don't get nationalism, particularly to the extent that people would die for it. Stadler refers to a social contract, and I guess I find that more agreeable.

However, I'm not just speaking of America. A ton of the Slovakians that Stadler referred to no doubt feel the same way that Cram does. People from those shithole countries would undoubtedly die for a government that oppresses them, out of the same misguided since of nationalism. I just don't get this.
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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #1690 on: July 10, 2018, 11:19:48 AM »
But do you need to understand it?  I don't.  That's why I don't want to join the military.  I don't want to die for the country.  I am one very selfish person.  However, I know that those who have died for the country, have allowed me to live my life the way I do and I respect that, a lot, even if I don't understand why that person felt it was important to them to join the military.  It's not really my concern why someone decides to join, but I a happy someone else agreed to do the job that I don't want to.

Offline Stadler

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #1691 on: July 10, 2018, 11:20:45 AM »
For myself, I just don't equate these things with "America." We have plenty of freedoms. More than some and less than other. I just don't get nationalism, particularly to the extent that people would die for it. Stadler refers to a social contract, and I guess I find that more agreeable.

However, I'm not just speaking of America. A ton of the Slovakians that Stadler referred to no doubt feel the same way that Cram does. People from those shithole countries would undoubtedly die for a government that oppresses them, out of the same misguided since of nationalism. I just don't get this.

But what does it matter?   Do you believe that we could disband the military tomorrow and still maintain our country as it currently is (or, hopefully, better than it is)?   If not, then what does it matter WHY someone will do what they do?    John Petrucci joined a band to further his art.  Mike joined a band to be boss.  Gene Simmons joined a band to bang chicks.    Neil Young joined a band to make political statements.   Jerry Garcia joined a band to get free weed.   Does one person's rationalization matter to the bigger picture IF we agree that the bigger picture is where we need to be?   

My brother is a cop; he implicitly agreed to put his life on the line for his job.   I've never asked him, but I know him well enough that it has nothing to do with "nation" or "country".  I'm not sure it has to do with any pure essence of "right" and "wrong", either.   I think past a certain point ("I'm a cop to steal free drugs from raids!") it doesn't matter that all members of the group share the same incentive. 

Offline Chino

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #1692 on: August 03, 2018, 05:59:11 AM »
Last night at his Rally, Trump said "I have great respect for the U.K. United Kingdom. Great respect. People call it Britain. They call it Great Britain. They used to call it England, different parts."

Offline jingle.boy

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #1693 on: August 03, 2018, 06:27:58 AM »
Last night at his Rally, Trump said "I have great respect for the U.K. United Kingdom. Great respect. People call it Britain. They call it Great Britain. They used to call it England, different parts."

What the fuck does he even mean?  This is the ramblings of an incoherent person.
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Offline Dave_Manchester

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #1694 on: August 03, 2018, 07:23:54 AM »
Yeah he's been struggling with that bit of geography for a while now. On July 15th he was interviewed on Air Force One by Piers Morgan following his visit to England and it involved this gem of an exchange (taken directly from the transcript):

Morgan: "The sceptic in me would say: 'What is the incentive for America to do a great deal with the United Kingdom?'"

Trump: "We would make a great deal with the United Kingdom because they have product that we like. I mean they have a lot of great product. They make phenomenal things, you know, and you have different names - you can say 'England', you can say 'UK', you can say 'United Kingdom' so many different - you know you have, you have so many different names - Great Britain. I always say: 'Which one do you prefer? Great Britain?' You understand what Iím saying?"

Morgan: "You know Great Britain and the United Kingdom arenít exactly the same thing?"

Trump: "Right, yeah. You know I know, but a lot of people donít know that. But you have lots of different names. The fact is you make great product, you make great things. Even your farm product is so fantastic".
"As democracy is perfected, the office of President represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their hearts' desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron" - H.L.Mencken, 26th July 1920.

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #1695 on: August 03, 2018, 07:29:35 AM »
I used to have an absolute idiot of a General Manager at one point in my career, and we'd often say "He talks A LOT, but he never says anything".

That was even worse than saying nothing.  Reminds me of the old joke/adage ... "better to keep your mouth shut and let people think you're an idiot, than to open it and remove all doubt".
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Offline Stadler

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #1696 on: August 03, 2018, 09:23:46 AM »
"Idiocy" is in the eyes of the beholder.    I don't, nominally, disagree with the points here.  For the record, I find Trump's "everyman" speaking style to be extremely off-putting; I'm more of a traditional orator kind of guy.  It's extremely hard to give a political speech, and it's starting to be a lost art, if you ask me.    But having said that, I don't see any difference - broadly - in not knowing that England, Great Britain (England, Scotland and Wales) and the United Kingdom (England, Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland) are different than I do in not knowing that tariffs are economically unsound, and that we are currently paying massive subsidies to the farming industry (if you've ever heard of "Farm Aid" you should know what I'm talking about) because of the tariffs instituted in the '30's by FDR.  More complicated? Sure, but it's just general knowledge.    Ask 10 people on the street the difference between England/Great Britain/U.K. and see what answers you get.   Not suggesting that this is right, or good or defensible - it's not, in fact, it's supremely embarrassing - but it's not as if Trump is ideopathically intellectually disabled (in the DSM sense of the wording).

Should he know better?  Of course.    Without question.  I'm just finding it hard to muster up any sincere outrage or disgust when so much of our politics is rooted in exactly that same level of ignorance.   

Offline Jaffa

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #1697 on: August 03, 2018, 07:43:01 PM »
Ask 10 people on the street the difference between England/Great Britain/U.K. and see what answers you get.   

I'm willing to wager quite a lot of money that if I ask 10 random people on the street, zero of them will be the President of a major country. 

I don't necessarily think that Trump is actually an idiot, but I do think that he is woefully and painfully uneducated in a lot of matters that someone in his position should have some degree of expertise on. 

And, more to the point, I think that his insistence on pretending to be educated on those matters makes him look like... well, an idiot. 
Sincerely,
Jaffa

Offline Chino

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #1698 on: August 06, 2018, 08:55:56 AM »
Ask 10 people on the street the difference between England/Great Britain/U.K. and see what answers you get.   

I'm willing to wager quite a lot of money that if I ask 10 random people on the street, zero of them will be the President of a major country. 

I don't necessarily think that Trump is actually an idiot, but I do think that he is woefully and painfully uneducated in a lot of matters that someone in his position should have some degree of expertise on. 

And, more to the point, I think that his insistence on pretending to be educated on those matters makes him look like... well, an idiot.

ďIím speaking with myself, number one, because I have a very good brain and Iíve said a lot of things."

Offline Stadler

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #1699 on: August 06, 2018, 10:54:09 AM »
Ask 10 people on the street the difference between England/Great Britain/U.K. and see what answers you get.   

I'm willing to wager quite a lot of money that if I ask 10 random people on the street, zero of them will be the President of a major country. 

I don't necessarily think that Trump is actually an idiot, but I do think that he is woefully and painfully uneducated in a lot of matters that someone in his position should have some degree of expertise on. 

And, more to the point, I think that his insistence on pretending to be educated on those matters makes him look like... well, an idiot.

That is a popular style answer ("But he's the PRESIDENT!") but it fails to grasp the essential draw of Trump for many.   Knowing the specific breakdown of "England/GB/UK" doesn't lower premiums, doesn't increase wages, doesn't pay tuitions anymore than making sure some person in North Carolina gets to use the very bathroom that their heart desires does. 

I'm not suggesting that any of this is "optimal" - it's not - or that it doesn't have unintended consequences - it does (though no more or less than the alternative) - but that it is.   I'm a big fan of strong orators.  Even though I don't have a lot in common with his politics, I saw the Rev. Jesse Jackson speak at UConn, and it was MESMERIZING.   None of the jargon that he tended to use while campaigning, but about an hour and 15 minutes of cogent, well-articulated ideas.   A performance that informs some of my preferences (politically) today.   Contrast that with Trump, who sounds like he's giving a toast at a frat party with his speeches.   

Offline Jaffa

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #1700 on: August 07, 2018, 07:48:26 PM »
Ask 10 people on the street the difference between England/Great Britain/U.K. and see what answers you get.   

I'm willing to wager quite a lot of money that if I ask 10 random people on the street, zero of them will be the President of a major country. 

I don't necessarily think that Trump is actually an idiot, but I do think that he is woefully and painfully uneducated in a lot of matters that someone in his position should have some degree of expertise on. 

And, more to the point, I think that his insistence on pretending to be educated on those matters makes him look like... well, an idiot.

That is a popular style answer ("But he's the PRESIDENT!") but it fails to grasp the essential draw of Trump for many.   Knowing the specific breakdown of "England/GB/UK" doesn't lower premiums, doesn't increase wages, doesn't pay tuitions anymore than making sure some person in North Carolina gets to use the very bathroom that their heart desires does. 

I'm not suggesting that any of this is "optimal" - it's not - or that it doesn't have unintended consequences - it does (though no more or less than the alternative) - but that it is.   I'm a big fan of strong orators.  Even though I don't have a lot in common with his politics, I saw the Rev. Jesse Jackson speak at UConn, and it was MESMERIZING.   None of the jargon that he tended to use while campaigning, but about an hour and 15 minutes of cogent, well-articulated ideas.   A performance that informs some of my preferences (politically) today.   Contrast that with Trump, who sounds like he's giving a toast at a frat party with his speeches.

This is the second time you have mentioned your preference for traditional strong oration, and it makes me think that you are conflating style with substance.  To clarify my perspective, I'm objecting to Trump's substance, not just his style.  I'm not complaining that he speaks in an ignorant, 'every-man' style; I'm complaining that he makes ignorant statements.  There is an important distinction. 

Consider the following:

Morgan: "The sceptic in me would say: 'What is the incentive for America to do a great deal with the United Kingdom?'"

Trump: "Well, to the skeptic in you, I would say this: if there's a great deal to be made, why wouldn't America want to do it?  The great deal, in and of itself, is incentive.  If we can have a business relationship that is beneficial to both of our countries, I don't see why we wouldn't want to.  The fact is, there are a lot of great products manufactured in your country.  I am eager to explore ways for America to benefit from more British imports.  Sorry - English.  Please forgive me.  I'm never quite sure of the best way to refer to your country.  Do you have a preference?  England?  The UK?  The United Kingdom?  Great Britain?  In any case, I'm sure you understand what I mean.  If there is a great deal to be made, I want to make it."

I'm not a great speechwriter, but I like to think I am at least vaguely coherent, so hopefully my rewrite has improved the style of Trumps answer.  Hopefully it rambles less.  Hopefully it flows a little better.  I'm sure it could be polished a lot more, but no matter how much you polish it, it doesn't change the basic misunderstanding it contains. 

Now, you're very correct on one point: his supporters probably don't care about this misunderstanding.  And frankly, that frustrates me.  I feel like Trump is doing a very good job of dumbing down our discourse in this country.  It's true that the GB/UK thing is a common mistake, but that common mistake now has a Presidential Seal affixed to it, and his followers simply don't care.  They don't seem to care about any of the facts he misunderstands, misrepresents, omits, ignores, or generally butchered.  And that bothers me, because I happen to like facts.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2018, 08:04:55 PM by Jaffa »
Sincerely,
Jaffa

Offline Stadler

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #1701 on: August 08, 2018, 08:54:26 AM »
Ask 10 people on the street the difference between England/Great Britain/U.K. and see what answers you get.   

I'm willing to wager quite a lot of money that if I ask 10 random people on the street, zero of them will be the President of a major country. 

I don't necessarily think that Trump is actually an idiot, but I do think that he is woefully and painfully uneducated in a lot of matters that someone in his position should have some degree of expertise on. 

And, more to the point, I think that his insistence on pretending to be educated on those matters makes him look like... well, an idiot.

That is a popular style answer ("But he's the PRESIDENT!") but it fails to grasp the essential draw of Trump for many.   Knowing the specific breakdown of "England/GB/UK" doesn't lower premiums, doesn't increase wages, doesn't pay tuitions anymore than making sure some person in North Carolina gets to use the very bathroom that their heart desires does. 

I'm not suggesting that any of this is "optimal" - it's not - or that it doesn't have unintended consequences - it does (though no more or less than the alternative) - but that it is.   I'm a big fan of strong orators.  Even though I don't have a lot in common with his politics, I saw the Rev. Jesse Jackson speak at UConn, and it was MESMERIZING.   None of the jargon that he tended to use while campaigning, but about an hour and 15 minutes of cogent, well-articulated ideas.   A performance that informs some of my preferences (politically) today.   Contrast that with Trump, who sounds like he's giving a toast at a frat party with his speeches.

This is the second time you have mentioned your preference for traditional strong oration, and it makes me think that you are conflating style with substance.  To clarify my perspective, I'm objecting to Trump's substance, not just his style.  I'm not complaining that he speaks in an ignorant, 'every-man' style; I'm complaining that he makes ignorant statements.  There is an important distinction. 

Consider the following:

Morgan: "The sceptic in me would say: 'What is the incentive for America to do a great deal with the United Kingdom?'"

Trump: "Well, to the skeptic in you, I would say this: if there's a great deal to be made, why wouldn't America want to do it?  The great deal, in and of itself, is incentive.  If we can have a business relationship that is beneficial to both of our countries, I don't see why we wouldn't want to.  The fact is, there are a lot of great products manufactured in your country.  I am eager to explore ways for America to benefit from more British imports.  Sorry - English.  Please forgive me.  I'm never quite sure of the best way to refer to your country.  Do you have a preference?  England?  The UK?  The United Kingdom?  Great Britain?  In any case, I'm sure you understand what I mean.  If there is a great deal to be made, I want to make it."

I'm not a great speechwriter, but I like to think I am at least vaguely coherent, so hopefully my rewrite has improved the style of Trumps answer.  Hopefully it rambles less.  Hopefully it flows a little better.  I'm sure it could be polished a lot more, but no matter how much you polish it, it doesn't change the basic misunderstanding it contains. 

I get the difference, but I said more than just "I have a preference for x".  My preference is for BOTH, style AND substance.  I believe that most of his critics (and those that like to push the "but OBAMA!" comparison) are making the very conflation you attribute to me.   Obama is a smart guy, but no brain surgeon, but he's a top flight orator.   George Bush is far smarter than his critics think, and they think that - el Barto excepted - because he's a subpar orator.  As for Trump...

Quote
Now, you're very correct on one point: his supporters probably don't care about this misunderstanding.  And frankly, that frustrates me.  I feel like Trump is doing a very good job of dumbing down our discourse in this country.  It's true that the GB/UK thing is a common mistake, but that common mistake now has a Presidential Seal affixed to it, and his followers simply don't care.  They don't seem to care about any of the facts he misunderstands, misrepresents, omits, ignores, or generally butchered.  And that bothers me, because I happen to like facts.

Don't say that as if it's some indicative characteristic of Trump and/or "his followers" (whatever that means).  "Idiocy" in politics is nothing that any one group can lay claim to.   Alexandra Ocacio-Cortez looks good on paper, but to hear her speak, it's lunacy.   It's basic math that doesn't add up.   I'm with you; I'm a fact guy.  I'd love to like someone like AO-C, she's young, she's aggressive, she's got the conviction of her beliefs... she's just missing the FACTS.    I think this modern trend to paint politicians as 'flip floppers' is destructive, because we should be re-evaluating our positions regularly as new information comes in.   I think Chris Murphy (my Democrat Senator) is every bit as bad as Donald Trump for the lies and propaganda he's peddling in his zeal to ban guns.   

People - whether they are Trump's "followers" or any other candidate's followers - want to have their opinions reinforced, with no scrutiny as to WHY they are or should be reinforced.  This is the beauty of social media.  This is why there are millions of people on Facebook, instead of something more productive.    To hear they are "beautiful" and "smart" and that their opinions "matter" even when those "opinions" are purely fanciful, and rooted in nothing but hot air.   

Offline Dave_Manchester

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #1702 on: August 08, 2018, 01:38:23 PM »
Why has this subforum been subtitled "aka the echo chamber" and which of the moderators did it?
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Offline bosk1

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #1703 on: August 08, 2018, 01:43:15 PM »
Who:  Me
Why:  Because I thought it was fitting and also funny, and I'm clever that way.
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Offline cramx3

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #1704 on: August 08, 2018, 01:57:06 PM »
It's also a good new Redemption song  :yarr

Offline Chino

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #1705 on: August 08, 2018, 02:01:58 PM »
I feel like calling this place an echo chamber is very disingenuous to the many posters in this sub that go out of their way to rationally, calmly, and intelligently express their points of view. I the grand scheme of political talk on the internet, this place is not an echo chamber.

Offline bosk1

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #1706 on: August 08, 2018, 02:03:13 PM »
It's also a good new Redemption song  :yarr

Yes.  :metal

I feel like calling this place an echo chamber is very disingenuous to the many posters in this sub that go out of their way to rationally, calmly, and intelligently express their points of view.

The two of them can have a chat with me if they would like to.
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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #1707 on: August 08, 2018, 02:13:49 PM »
I feel like calling this place an echo chamber is very disingenuous to the many posters in this sub that go out of their way to rationally, calmly, and intelligently express their points of view. I the grand scheme of political talk on the internet, this place is not an echo chamber.

Seriously. Compare this to the average FB feed...yikes...in fact DTF is one of the few places I can really absorb differing opinions and actually get something out of it and grow as a person, instead of recoiling in horror.
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Offline cramx3

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #1708 on: August 08, 2018, 02:15:53 PM »
Yea, in all seriousness, FB is an echo chamber and this place is nothing like that, thankfully.

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #1709 on: August 08, 2018, 03:27:35 PM »
Especially when after the election all my conservative friends managed to get themselves unfriended  :lol
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Offline Implode

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #1710 on: August 08, 2018, 03:39:34 PM »
A few years ago, I thought this place was an echo chamber. That's around when I stopped posting a lot here. Since then I feel like we've gotten a lot more participation and good discussion.

That said, I'm all for the subtitle. I find it funny.  :lol

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #1711 on: August 08, 2018, 03:56:05 PM »
I feel like calling this place an echo chamber is very disingenuous to the many posters in this sub that go out of their way to rationally, calmly, and intelligently express their points of view. I the grand scheme of political talk on the internet, this place is not an echo chamber.

Seriously. Compare this to the average FB feed...yikes...in fact DTF is one of the few places I can really absorb differing opinions and actually get something out of it and grow as a person, instead of recoiling in horror.

Same... this is a place of sane and intelligent discussion. The whole DT community of sites (well, really, MP's forum and here) has been wonderful for learning and talking with people of a wide range of beliefs, hell Dave alone always gives a lot to chew on with his perspective from THE RUSSIAN FEDERATION!!!
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Offline jingle.boy

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #1712 on: August 08, 2018, 04:24:37 PM »
I feel like calling this place an echo chamber is very disingenuous to the many posters in this sub that go out of their way to rationally, calmly, and intelligently express their points of view.

The two of them can have a chat with me if they would like to.

What a clever statement.   ::)

Just because you don't have the same views with "the many posters" that Chino refers to doesn't mean that the discourse isn't done "rationally, calmly, and intelligently".  Honestly, I've come to consider Stadler a top 10 DTF friend because of our conversations here - I'm being completely serious.  Gary's there too - he's been there for a long time.  Not sure that would happen if I was stuck in my own echo chamber.
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Offline bosk1

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #1713 on: August 08, 2018, 04:29:21 PM »
I feel like calling this place an echo chamber is very disingenuous to the many posters in this sub that go out of their way to rationally, calmly, and intelligently express their points of view.

The two of them can have a chat with me if they would like to.

What a clever statement.   ::)

Well, yes.

...and I'm clever that way.

See?  :biggrin:
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Offline Stadler

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #1714 on: August 09, 2018, 08:47:03 AM »
I consider myself... self... self... self, the luckiest man... man... man... man, on the face of the earth... earth... earth... earth.


For the record (replying to Jingle), I feel exactly the same way.  I am not at all the kind of guy that only surrounds himself with people that agree with me (or that I agree with).   And any disagreement is, hopefully, handled with respect and maturity, with the idea that I always have something to learn (and I do, even if it doesn't seem like it some times).