Author Topic: Growing up too soft  (Read 8159 times)

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Offline Ħ

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Growing up too soft
« on: July 07, 2012, 09:34:35 PM »
We never grew up during a time of war (and I mean a real war). We grew up in a very different environment than those that grew up during WWII and Vietnam, when there was still a draft. There was a romanticism of being a "man" or a "woman". It seems to me that young men today are much softer and young women are more independent and expressive - sort of a merging of gender roles. I realize this is just the way it is, but it's kind of sad that those old-fashioned notions of "being a man" and stuff are dying, especially in the States. We never had to fend for ourselves or survival. Obviously war is not good but it's too bad anyway. These are just my thoughts this evening. What are your thoughts?


EDIT: Changed the thread title as it may have been offensive.
EDIT2: Changed again as I realized that I didn't make this thread about gender roles in the first place  :facepalm:
« Last Edit: July 07, 2012, 10:42:43 PM by Ħ »
"All great works are prepared in the desert, including the redemption of the world. The precursors, the followers, the Master Himself, all obeyed or have to obey one and the same law. Prophets, apostles, preachers, martyrs, pioneers of knowledge, inspired artists in every art, ordinary men and the Man-God, all pay tribute to loneliness, to the life of silence, to the night." - A. G. Sertillanges

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Re: Is the younger generation too soft?
« Reply #1 on: July 07, 2012, 09:44:50 PM »
I'm staying the fuck out of this one.

Online Adami

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Re: Is the younger generation too soft?
« Reply #2 on: July 07, 2012, 09:47:22 PM »
God I wish Jackie had internet. Ah screw it, I'm gonna text her about this thread.
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Offline Ħ

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Re: Is the younger generation too soft?
« Reply #3 on: July 07, 2012, 09:48:13 PM »
No!

Er, I mean, this thread's not about whether it should be this way or should be that way. It's just a nostalgic notion, that's all.
"All great works are prepared in the desert, including the redemption of the world. The precursors, the followers, the Master Himself, all obeyed or have to obey one and the same law. Prophets, apostles, preachers, martyrs, pioneers of knowledge, inspired artists in every art, ordinary men and the Man-God, all pay tribute to loneliness, to the life of silence, to the night." - A. G. Sertillanges

Offline theseoafs

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Re: Is the younger generation too soft?
« Reply #4 on: July 07, 2012, 09:51:29 PM »
First of all, I'm not sure if it's necessarily true that the younger generation has it off easier just because we're not living in times of war.  What I hear -- and keep in mind that I'm only 19, so I'm not able to confirm this -- is that things have gotten less safe as far as our suburbs and cities go.  Secondhand reports tell me that the American suburb is no longer a safe haven, and parents are generally more afraid to let their children go out by themselves.  Chris Rock will back me up in the 20 seconds or so I've queued up here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3PJF0YE-x4&t=230 (NSFW obviously).  An old person can confirm or deny this, but this is what I've heard.

HOWEVER.  The death of gender roles is absolutely a good thing.  Things are getting better in America when men and women aren't subjugated for not conforming to an imagined standard.

If you feel like you connect with the "strong man" gender role, great!  It's good to know yourself, and many women like strong men.  But we don't need 50's-style gender roles again.  That's a step backward.

EDIT: By the way, H:  I'm being kind.  What you've written here is actually quite offensive and I hope you recognize why.

Offline Phantasmatron

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Re: Is the younger generation too soft?
« Reply #5 on: July 07, 2012, 09:52:03 PM »
While you bring up an interesting point, it does not top the list of things that are wrong with the younger generation.

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Re: Is the younger generation too soft?
« Reply #6 on: July 07, 2012, 09:52:16 PM »
Not really nostalgia since you never experienced it, more like romanticizing a certain time in our past.


Anywho, gender roles in general are stupid to me so I have no desire to return to a time where men were more aggressive, dominant and controlling.
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Offline Sigz

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Re: Is the younger generation too soft?
« Reply #7 on: July 07, 2012, 09:55:09 PM »
I have absolutely no problem with any of this, and find the entire concept of being 'a real man' ridiculous.
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Offline Ħ

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Re: Is the younger generation too soft?
« Reply #8 on: July 07, 2012, 09:58:56 PM »
But we don't need 50's-style gender roles again.  That's a step backward.
A step sideways, I'd say, at least for the purposes of the thread - which is not a P/R thread or any sort of comment on the way things should be. It's just interesting to reflect how things have changed.
"All great works are prepared in the desert, including the redemption of the world. The precursors, the followers, the Master Himself, all obeyed or have to obey one and the same law. Prophets, apostles, preachers, martyrs, pioneers of knowledge, inspired artists in every art, ordinary men and the Man-God, all pay tribute to loneliness, to the life of silence, to the night." - A. G. Sertillanges

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Re: Not growing up with the experience of gender norms
« Reply #9 on: July 07, 2012, 10:02:14 PM »
If equality is at all a concern of yours, then gender roles are a step backwards.


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Offline theseoafs

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Re: Is the younger generation too soft?
« Reply #10 on: July 07, 2012, 10:03:07 PM »
But we don't need 50's-style gender roles again.  That's a step backward.
A step sideways

Nope, definitely backward, subforums aside.

Offline Ħ

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Re: Not growing up with the experience of gender norms
« Reply #11 on: July 07, 2012, 10:04:27 PM »
If equality is at all a concern of yours, then gender roles are a step backwards.



Political subjugation of women aside, how?
"All great works are prepared in the desert, including the redemption of the world. The precursors, the followers, the Master Himself, all obeyed or have to obey one and the same law. Prophets, apostles, preachers, martyrs, pioneers of knowledge, inspired artists in every art, ordinary men and the Man-God, all pay tribute to loneliness, to the life of silence, to the night." - A. G. Sertillanges

Offline j

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Re: Is the younger generation too soft?
« Reply #12 on: July 07, 2012, 10:13:43 PM »
First of all, I'm not sure if it's necessarily true that the younger generation has it off easier just because we're not living in times of war.  What I hear -- and keep in mind that I'm only 19, so I'm not able to confirm this -- is that things have gotten less safe as far as our suburbs and cities go.  Secondhand reports tell me that the American suburb is no longer a safe haven, and parents are generally more afraid to let their children go out by themselves.

Again I'm in my 20s so not in a position to validate or refute this.  But "having it easier" can be taken to mean a billion different things.  Maybe I read it differently than some of you guys, but what H's post brought to mind for me was more the character weaknesses I see in my own generation (men and women) than anything specifically to do with gender roles.  And though it may be "romanticizing" to think that they were any different in generations past, I think it's absolutely a valid concern regardless.

Not really nostalgia since you never experienced it, more like romanticizing a certain time in our past.

Exactly.

Also, why are people acting like this is just such an appalling thing to say.  He was just thinking out loud through DTF, anybody here knows H is not a bigot.  I'm so tired of hearing about this or that being "offensive," ironic that it actually lends credence to some of the OP.

-J

Offline theseoafs

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Re: Is the younger generation too soft?
« Reply #13 on: July 07, 2012, 10:27:06 PM »
Also, why are people acting like this is just such an appalling thing to say.  He was just thinking out loud through DTF, anybody here knows H is not a bigot.  I'm so tired of hearing about this or that being "offensive," ironic that it actually lends credence to some of the OP.

I'm currently PM'ing H about this very issue, but I'll also summarize it for the kind people here.  Here's a quotation, with the OP's biggest problem bolded:

Quote
There was a romanticism of being a "man" or a "woman". It seems to me that young men today are much softer and young women are more independent and expressive - sort of a merging of gender roles.

By romanticizing the 50's, he inadvertently pined for the days when women were less independent and expressive.  Knowing H, he probably didn't mean to suggest he wanted all women to be homemakers; however, at the end of the day, you can't endorse gender roles without being misogynistic. 

Gender roles are also harmful to men, of course, but how the OP dealt with women is far and away the most offensive thing here.

Offline Gadough

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Re: Not growing up with the experience of gender norms
« Reply #14 on: July 07, 2012, 10:37:41 PM »
I watch My Little Pony: Friendship Is Magic. Pinkie Pie is my favorite pony.

That is my contribution to this thread.
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Offline Ħ

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Re: Not growing up with the experience of gender norms
« Reply #15 on: July 07, 2012, 10:40:36 PM »
Not really nostalgia since you never experienced it, more like romanticizing a certain time in our past.
That's a better way of putting it.
"All great works are prepared in the desert, including the redemption of the world. The precursors, the followers, the Master Himself, all obeyed or have to obey one and the same law. Prophets, apostles, preachers, martyrs, pioneers of knowledge, inspired artists in every art, ordinary men and the Man-God, all pay tribute to loneliness, to the life of silence, to the night." - A. G. Sertillanges

Offline ZBomber

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Re: Growing up too soft
« Reply #16 on: July 07, 2012, 10:51:15 PM »
Hayden, if there is anyone that can lead our great nation into manhood, it would be you.

Offline Ħ

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Re: Growing up too soft
« Reply #17 on: July 07, 2012, 10:56:05 PM »
Just want to reiterate that this thread is not about gender roles - my mention of them in my OP is really nothing more than an aside. This thread is about our generation not having the motivation to "be a man" - i.e. be disciplined, hardened through experience, tough, have a do-it-yourself mentality. Whether you are actually male or female is beside the point. Whether you agree or disagree with the phrase "be a man" is beside the point; it's the values that the phrase represent that matter.

I think it's a shame that we are so spoiled to the point where we can't truly fight for ourselves. I appreciate America and it's provisions, but it's to the point where we've collectively weakened as a society.
"All great works are prepared in the desert, including the redemption of the world. The precursors, the followers, the Master Himself, all obeyed or have to obey one and the same law. Prophets, apostles, preachers, martyrs, pioneers of knowledge, inspired artists in every art, ordinary men and the Man-God, all pay tribute to loneliness, to the life of silence, to the night." - A. G. Sertillanges

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Re: Growing up too soft
« Reply #18 on: July 07, 2012, 11:00:23 PM »
That's some splendid backtracking there Brother H. I expect that by the next time I post in this thread, it will have yet another title.
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Offline Ħ

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Re: Growing up too soft
« Reply #19 on: July 07, 2012, 11:00:55 PM »
*tips hat*
"All great works are prepared in the desert, including the redemption of the world. The precursors, the followers, the Master Himself, all obeyed or have to obey one and the same law. Prophets, apostles, preachers, martyrs, pioneers of knowledge, inspired artists in every art, ordinary men and the Man-God, all pay tribute to loneliness, to the life of silence, to the night." - A. G. Sertillanges

Offline Siberian Khatru

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Re: Growing up too soft
« Reply #20 on: July 07, 2012, 11:18:35 PM »
Genders roles becoming less defined and more equal is probably one of the ONLY things good about this generation.

Also, there's way more War now than ever before. But no-one wants to go, or pay for it, even when they support it. In my opinion that completely lack of self-sacrifice and responsibility toward the world (and anything other than oneself) is the biggest problem with this generation.

Offline Dimitrius

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Re: Growing up too soft
« Reply #21 on: July 07, 2012, 11:30:45 PM »
I agree with you about this generation being too soft, H. I know people who can't handle being made fun of one bit, be it over the internet or real life.
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Offline nyancat4

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Re: Growing up too soft
« Reply #22 on: July 07, 2012, 11:34:27 PM »
I agree with you about this generation being too soft, H. I know people who can't handle being made fun of one bit, be it over the internet or real life.

I agree. People can say some nasty things about people (read: bitches and tricks). you just gotta ignore the haters and be a name maker!!

Offline Ħ

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Re: Growing up too soft
« Reply #23 on: July 07, 2012, 11:35:34 PM »
I agree with you about this generation being too soft, H. I know people who can't handle being made fun of one bit, be it over the internet or real life.

I agree. People can say some nasty things about people (read: bitches and tricks). you just gotta ignore the haters and be a name maker!!
Nice first post. Hit the nail on the head there. And welcome!
"All great works are prepared in the desert, including the redemption of the world. The precursors, the followers, the Master Himself, all obeyed or have to obey one and the same law. Prophets, apostles, preachers, martyrs, pioneers of knowledge, inspired artists in every art, ordinary men and the Man-God, all pay tribute to loneliness, to the life of silence, to the night." - A. G. Sertillanges

Offline Nel

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Re: Not growing up with the experience of gender norms
« Reply #24 on: July 07, 2012, 11:36:46 PM »
I watch My Little Pony: Friendship Is Magic. Pinkie Pie is my favorite pony.

That is my contribution to this thread.

On this, you and I shall always be on common ground, my friend.  :tup
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Offline Siberian Khatru

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Re: Growing up too soft
« Reply #25 on: July 07, 2012, 11:39:18 PM »
People from this generation obsess over themselves in an almost narcissistic way. People can't think from the point of view of others. You can't ask someone to put themselves in someone else's shoes. Everyone's just thinking about how they, themselves, can get ahead, and the other guy isn't anyone's problem. It kinda disgusts me, so I don't like thinking about it much and probably don't want to even get in a discussion about it.

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Re: Growing up too soft
« Reply #26 on: July 07, 2012, 11:45:14 PM »
People from this generation obsess over themselves in an almost narcissistic way. People can't think from the point of view of others. You can't ask someone to put themselves in someone else's shoes. Everyone's just thinking about how they, themselves, can get ahead, and the other guy isn't anyone's problem. It kinda disgusts me, so I don't like thinking about it much and probably don't want to even get in a discussion about it.

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Offline YtseCullen

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Re: Growing up too soft
« Reply #27 on: July 07, 2012, 11:52:58 PM »
I agree with Adami on this one.
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Offline Siberian Khatru

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Re: Growing up too soft
« Reply #28 on: July 07, 2012, 11:59:50 PM »
People from this generation obsess over themselves in an almost narcissistic way. People can't think from the point of view of others. You can't ask someone to put themselves in someone else's shoes. Everyone's just thinking about how they, themselves, can get ahead, and the other guy isn't anyone's problem. It kinda disgusts me, so I don't like thinking about it much and probably don't want to even get in a discussion about it.

Welcome to the history of humanity.

Yeah but I wouldn't call that "soft". I would call that general callousness towards others that, with this generation, is continuing alongside a MUCH more individual-based way of looking at the world. So not really a good combo at all. But "soft"? Nah. We could use more of "going soft" maybe.

Online Adami

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Re: Growing up too soft
« Reply #29 on: July 08, 2012, 12:09:00 AM »
I didn't say soft. You said this generation obsesses over themselves in an almost narcissistic way and can't think from the point of view of others.


To that, I responded "Welcome to the history of humanity".
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Offline Siberian Khatru

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Re: Growing up too soft
« Reply #30 on: July 08, 2012, 12:23:49 AM »
I didn't say soft. You said this generation obsesses over themselves in an almost narcissistic way and can't think from the point of view of others.


To that, I responded "Welcome to the history of humanity".

Ah, the thread title says "soft" in it, implying that men are getting to soft or something. I was responding to that.

Online Adami

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Re: Growing up too soft
« Reply #31 on: July 08, 2012, 12:33:49 AM »
I didn't say soft. You said this generation obsesses over themselves in an almost narcissistic way and can't think from the point of view of others.


To that, I responded "Welcome to the history of humanity".

Ah, the thread title says "soft" in it, implying that men are getting to soft or something. I was responding to that.

....but I was responding to you.

You know what this means? It means we have to hug. That's how men of our generation deal with problems, we hug.

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Offline Ħ

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Re: Growing up too soft
« Reply #32 on: July 08, 2012, 12:35:03 AM »
People from this generation obsess over themselves in an almost narcissistic way. People can't think from the point of view of others. You can't ask someone to put themselves in someone else's shoes. Everyone's just thinking about how they, themselves, can get ahead, and the other guy isn't anyone's problem. It kinda disgusts me, so I don't like thinking about it much and probably don't want to even get in a discussion about it.
Because not being soft always leads to narcissism. I follow perfectly.
"All great works are prepared in the desert, including the redemption of the world. The precursors, the followers, the Master Himself, all obeyed or have to obey one and the same law. Prophets, apostles, preachers, martyrs, pioneers of knowledge, inspired artists in every art, ordinary men and the Man-God, all pay tribute to loneliness, to the life of silence, to the night." - A. G. Sertillanges

Offline Siberian Khatru

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Re: Growing up too soft
« Reply #33 on: July 08, 2012, 12:47:13 AM »
I think you're mistaking "being soft" with being "completely self-absorbed and not willing to make a sacrifice for others". I mean, case and point, this thread.

You know what man? There's like 3 wars going on right now that the United States is involved with. If you believe "masculine values" and "warfare" are so important to "being a real man" or something you could join-up. Plenty of people have and do for less grandiose reasons than the ones your expressing. Your profile tells me that you are 20 years old. That is pretty much the perfect age for you to "man-up" and go put your life on the line for something you believe in.

But therein lies the problem. You won't go, and neither would anyone who doesn't have to. Our society isn't soft, it's just full of individuals that don't give a damn about one another. Want a war? OK. Send someone else to go, and put it on the national credit card. It's all about getting someone else to do something for you so you don't have to-- NOT about doing something you believe in because you think it's the right thing for you to do. That has nothing to do with men going "soft" and has everything to do with people becoming absorbed in themselves and placing their own good above the good of others.

There is absolutely no conception of "shared-sacrifice" in the United States right now. A few years ago (and it's coming back now) President Obama learned you can't even get the American people to set up a health program if you tell them they'll have to pay anything for it. People in the United States just don't believe in ANYTHING that they'd be willing to put themselves and their lives on the line for. I don't see that as being soft. I see that as being bankrupt morally and governed solely by self-interest and fixated on the good of oneself above all.


Offline Siberian Khatru

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Re: Growing up too soft
« Reply #34 on: July 08, 2012, 12:47:40 AM »
I didn't say soft. You said this generation obsesses over themselves in an almost narcissistic way and can't think from the point of view of others.


To that, I responded "Welcome to the history of humanity".

Ah, the thread title says "soft" in it, implying that men are getting to soft or something. I was responding to that.

....but I was responding to you.

You know what this means? It means we have to hug. That's how men of our generation deal with problems, we hug.

omg I don't feel soft at all anymore.... :blush